Maester Muff Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Cragen why do you think viserys is the heir? Rhaegar's son would come before his brother. That is assuming Jon was legitimate with rhaegar and Lyanna being married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragen Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Nope, Rhaegar's children precede Viserys. Anyway, the KG may not be stupid, but they are so gung-ho about their oaths that they would try anyway. Got to kill them before they would stop - which Ned and his friends did. If I recall right after Rhaegar's death Viserys has crowned as Prince of Dragonstone and heir. Anyway this fight don't make any sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Right question is why they're fighting at all? I doubt that KGs was thinking that Ned will harm his sister and her child. Ned is best men to protect Lyanna and her child. Beside of that why don't let men to see his dying sister? After all they are honorable men, especially Arthur Dayne. How do they know Ned will not harm his sister and/or her child? They don't know him at all so they have no idea what kind of person he is . They know that Rhaegar's children were murdered so could they really trust Ned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragen Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Nope, Rhaegar's children precede Viserys. Anyway, the KG may not be stupid, but they are so gung-ho about their oaths that they would try anyway. Got to kill them before they would stop - which Ned and his friends did. After Rhaegar's death Viserys has crowned as Prince of Dragonstone and heir. Anyway this fight don't have any sense to me. OP: There is extraordinary for KG to kill 5 out of 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 If I recall right after Rhaegar's death Viserys has crowned as Prince of Dragonstone and heir. Anyway this fight don't make any sense to me. That's Aerys' madness and quite illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragen Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 How do they know Ned will not harm his sister and/or her child? They don't know him at all so they have no idea what kind of person he is . They know that Rhaegar's children were murdered so could they really trust Ned? Because it's natural to assume that people don't want to kill their siblings and they spend much time with Lyanna they could ask her what kind of person is her brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuttaOldtown Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 This first quote to me is the biggest clue: "No," said Meera, "but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear." These support the theory that Howland used magic & NOT conventional fighting skills:Mudmen are sneaks, they won't fight like decent folks, they skulk and use poison arrows. You never see them, but they see you. Those who go into the bogs after them get lost and never come out. Their houses move, even the castles like Greywater Watch. "The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit on a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances." "...a shirt sewn with bronze scales...a leathern shield and a three pronged spear" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragen Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 How do they know Ned will not harm his sister and/or her child? They don't know him at all so they have no idea what kind of person he is . They know that Rhaegar's children were murdered so could they really trust Ned? Because it's natural to assume that people don't want to kill their siblings and they spend much time with Lyanna they could ask her what kind of person is her brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Because it's natural to assume that people don't want to kill their siblings and they spend much time with Lyanna they could ask her what kind of person is her brother. Could they really take the chance knowing that Rhaegar's children had already been murdered? The baby was a Targaryen and the grandson of the King that murdered his father and brother and a threat to the man he just put on the throne so it's not hard to see the KG being worried about what Ned would do . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Right question is why they're fighting at all? I doubt that KGs was thinking that Ned will harm his sister and her child. Ned is best men to protect Lyanna and her child. Beside of that why don't let men to see his dying sister? After all they are honorable men, especially Arthur Dayne. Lyanna's son in their custody was the scion of House Targaryen, destined to one day to take the Iron Throne. Jon in Ned's custody would be just some bastard (if not deemed "dragonspawn" by Robert Baratheon, and treated accordingly). That's irreconcilable conflict of interests. Hence fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 And even if Ned does not kill the child he certainly would not want the baby on the Iron throne so that automatically puts him in conflict with the KG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragen Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Lyanna's son in their custody was the scion of House Targaryen, destined to one day to take the Iron Throne. Jon in Ned's custody would be just some bastard (if not deemed "dragonspawn" by Robert Baratheon, and treated accordingly). That's irreconcilable conflict of interests. Hence fight. So why don't run away with child, secure him and plan his takeover of IT. Lyanna is not important for them and she's dying. If they want him on IT why staying in ToJ like sitting ducks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 So why don't run away with child, secure him and plan his takeover of IT. Lyanna is not important for them and she's dying. If they want him on IT why staying in ToJ like sitting ducks. Different possible explanations, from "babe not yet strong enough for travel", "can't leave the mother", "didn't knew untl the Northmen were close" straight up to "no chance, let's do suicide by Northmen". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragen Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Different possible explanations, from "babe not yet strong enough for travel", "can't leave the mother", "didn't knew untl the Northmen were close" straight up to "no chance, let's do suicide by Northmen". Babe is strong enough to travel with Ned. They were know about Rhaegar's death why not plan they steps earlier? What if Robert come with small army there? To put someone on IT you need to keep him alive. If you want to fight and kill someone who outnumber you why not use walls you have. This not make sense except if they want heroic death and don't care about child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 So why don't run away with child, secure him and plan his takeover of IT. Lyanna is not important for them and she's dying. If they want him on IT why staying in ToJ like sitting ducks. Because, as you've noted above, they were honorable people, and that would have been a really crappy thing to do to Lyanna. Maybe justifiable from a purely logical point of view, but crappy nevertheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous22 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I get the impression HR was/is a tricky b*stard to deal with. Strolling up to a KG for a straight up fight doesn't really fit with a Crannogman's MO. He may of simply done a bit of a Pod and stood on a wall chucking stones until he got lucky. Or perhaps he had some poison meaning Ned just had to hold his own until the sword of the morning withered and died. I'm loving the idea that Jon was born - the new sword of the morning, and that somehow rendered Dayne less powerful. But at the end of the day I'm left with no concrete stance on how it played out. Even after yearts of readin theories, I'm yet to read one that I like/fully believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragen Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Because, as you've noted above, they were honorable people, and that would have been a really crappy thing to do to Lyanna. Maybe justifiable from a purely logical point of view, but crappy nevertheless. So we have honorable people and their duty is to protect child and they won't live his mother, they won to put child on IT and they don't trust child uncle. Why not use every chance you have to stay alive(tower wall, bring more loyalist soldier), why not negotiating with child uncle when is clear you can't accomplish all those thing. Arthur Dayne has show himself like good diplomat why not try negotiations if that don't go right you can still fight at end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 This thought was inspired by the podcast of james johnson on youtube. How could Dayne be defeated by ned and howland? I'm sure they were average fighters even above average. Dayne will be remembered historically as a great fighter. So how could he have lost? Perhaps when Jon Snow was born, Dawn (being lightbringer), turned "on" or "ignited" in a way that during battle, Dayne lost his grip due to the sudden infusion of light and heat from the sword. It seems more plausible then ned got lucky and howland was there. Perhaps the sword of the morning was distracted and the disadvantage of the sword turning on in that brief moment of the birth of jon snow, caused him to lose the battle. Thoughts please? Ned said he would have died but for Howland Reed. I'm going with that. I don't believe anything happened with the sword unless Howland knocked it out of his hand or away from Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Is A Sweet Poison Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Firespider, I wanted to say that perhaps Ned didn't really know about the whole AA stories, though I can't see how old nan didn't tell him. But still, perhaps in the thick of fighting, both him and howland didn't realize. Perhaps the Dawn heating up, as it was, in Daynes hand, gave him the disadvantage at a time so moves were being made. Howland and Ned could have been ignorant to what was happening, plus they wouldn't put the idea that a baby being born would do something. again, more questions, but its epic for me to think the snow being born did something to dawn, even it was so subtle I have to say...wow, the brutally honestly of dismantling my theory is why I love the people on this board. Now because of this no-kitten-gloves responses, I have gained more insight to the TOJ scenario. But with it more questions...this TOJ scene has so many questions to be answered, its like Summerhall for the new generation...what the hell happened? We shall find out. But still, its nice to think that dawn is LB and jon snow's birth may have just tuned it up a bit. We shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damp Hair - The Prophet Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 3 VS 7 is bad odds. (plus the 7 were mounted so unless they got off their steads to fight honorably they should have trod over the KG) Arthur Dayne - may be the best of the best with the sword of legend but he's just a man. Oswell Whent - is Batman but he doesn't have any gadgets. White Bull - is like a body building geriatric Semly only not as skilled, an administrator more than a warrior. Ned - was battle hardened but his guys were a mixed bag. Ethan Glover - A squire who'd prob been in a KL dungeon since Ned's dad & bro were killed there. Weaklink. Lord Dustin - was legit & had the best horse in the North. Martyn Cassel - 'Proud.' Probably competent. Theo Wull - Besides being faithfull to 'the Ned' and possibly having a bucket for a helm, mountain clans are tough. Mark Ryswell - Softy. Howland Reed - The X factor. Fights in the style of gladiatorial Retiarius, with weighted net & trident (frog spear). I like to think it was two-on-one for the others and Howland lurked at the edge of the battle sniping fools w/ poison arrows and/or poison darts from a blowpipe. The only thing we can know for sure at this point is that Oswel Whent is definitely Batman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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