Black Crow Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 Thus, by that standard, nearly any theory of what will happen in the end could be claimed to be inconsistent with the synopsis, which makes citing the synopsis as an argument against a particular event less a refutation, and more an exercise in subjective preference--eg, "I don't like this idea, this idea isn't present in the 1993 letter, ergo this idea couldn't possibly come true."As I keep saying, I know that things have changed and and will change, but I'm looking at that synopsis holistically and at the story which its outlining as a whole. Hods of characters aren't mentioned or have their roles re-assigned but I believe that the core is still there - and that it doesn't require prophesied heroes - rather that their role is to demonstrate the consequences of individuals and parties relying upon prophecies and doing things in their name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Sure, I follow your thinking here. In actually a Rickon fan too - I want to see the unicorn calvery as much as anyone. And I realize your point wasn't that Rickon is going to be a big character, but rather the idea of Bloodraven fucking up. It's probably a longshot (not a bad idea for writing a story around, however), but I understand what you're saying. Are you familiar with any of the "Euron is a failed Bloodraven apprentice" theories?Vaguely. I know he told Vic that he dreamed he could fly, but then his maester told him it was a lie. So that sounds a lot like Bran's situation. But I have not read any fleshed-out theories on it - if you know some or have a link, I would love to read them!This reminds me- what do we think of all the dreamers Bran saw impaled on spikes of ice in the LOAW? Who are these people, and how did they get there? Were they all recruited by BR, and all failed to fly in their dream? That would be a LOT of failures. Or is it customary for greenseers to recruit their own replacements? Still, the success rate seems low. Yet another hint that maybe we shouldn't trust BR's judgement?Euron is an interesting case, as we don't know if he flew in his dream. Presumably yes, since he is still around, and not impaled on an ice spike (which presumably would lead to death in real life?). But then why isn't he with BR? Maybe BR has a different plan for him? Sailing to Valyria and obtaining a dragon's egg sounds like something a Targaryen would approve of... but I'll wait on my speculations until I've read the theories already out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 I'm not sure that there is much more to the theory. It certainly does appear that Euron was visited, as Bran was, and there's the business of his eye. There is something eldrich about him but thus far the question has to remain unanswered as to whether he failed to fly, or whether he is working on his own account, or is out there fulfilling part of a cunning plan while Bran looks after the back-office.At this stage I think that on the basis of what's been offered to us there is a reason why he keeps his eye covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Vaguely. I know he told Vic that he dreamed he could fly, but then his maester told him it was a lie. So that sounds a lot like Bran's situation. But I have not read any fleshed-out theories on it - if you know some or have a link, I would love to read them!This reminds me- what do we think of all the dreamers Bran saw impaled on spikes of ice in the LOAW? Who are these people, and how did they get there? Were they all recruited by BR, and all failed to fly in their dream? That would be a LOT of failures. Or is it customary for greenseers to recruit their own replacements? Still, the success rate seems low. Yet another hint that maybe we shouldn't trust BR's judgement?Euron is an interesting case, as we don't know if he flew in his dream. Presumably yes, since he is still around, and not impaled on an ice spike (which presumably would lead to death in real life?). But then why isn't he with BR? Maybe BR has a different plan for him? Sailing to Valyria and obtaining a dragon's egg sounds like something a Targaryen would approve of... but I'll wait on my speculations until I've read the theories already out there. BeautifulBacon has a fun and interesting theory that includes Euron in her Marvel-lous thread:http://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/238/marvel-ous-world-asoiaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 BeautifulBacon has a fun and interesting theory that includes Euron in her Marvel-lous thread:http://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/238/marvel-ous-world-asoiafThanks, I was about to mention that one. It's a bit of a mind-fuck, but in a good way. Lots of parallels with really old Marvel comics, and Beautiful Bacon did a really thorough job. And it seems to point at the "Euron as a former apprentice to BR" idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 BeautifulBacon has a fun and interesting theory that includes Euron in her Marvel-lous thread:http://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/238/marvel-ous-world-asoiafHoly crap! I'm only 10 minutes into it, and the first crackpot has presented itself (though most likely BB - formerly Pretty PIg??- will get there too, in time) : BR is not the 3-eyed crow. Euron is! Of course, of course! The Crow's Eye! So obvious. And with a 3rd eye, Euron would actually have three, unlike BR. Ok, back to reading! I have a feeling I'm going to love this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Ok, 12 minutes into it now.... How is this not mandatory reading for every ASOIAF fan?!?!?!? It's like Bran's story is spelled out right there in the comics. The parallels are mind-blowing! Can't wait to see how it ends, wow, it should come with a spoiler alert! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Seriously- can everyone read it so that we can discuss it? I'm not anywhere near done, but it's AMAZING- GRRM plucked his characters directly out of these stories, and gave them extremely similar story arcs! I'm almost a little scared it's going to give away the ending, that's how closely it parallels ASOIAF. I know comic books don't sound that exciting (I was a little skeptical at first, I'll admit) - but this is well worth your time, fellow fans, I promise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Seriously- can everyone read it so that we can discuss it? I'm not anywhere near done, but it's AMAZING- GRRM plucked his characters directly out of these stories, and gave them extremely similar story arcs! I'm almost a little scared it's going to give away the ending, that's how closely it parallels ASOIAF. I know comic books don't sound that exciting (I was a little skeptical at first, I'll admit) - but this is well worth your time, fellow fans, I promise! Lol - I told you it was the good sort of mindfuck!! Don't worry, I'm sure George has changed some things, as he always does. But yeah, BB is on to something, no doubt. I too recommend it to everyone, it's great work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Seriously- can everyone read it so that we can discuss it? I'm not anywhere near done, but it's AMAZING- GRRM plucked his characters directly out of these stories, and gave them extremely similar story arcs! I'm almost a little scared it's going to give away the ending, that's how closely it parallels ASOIAF. I know comic books don't sound that exciting (I was a little skeptical at first, I'll admit) - but this is well worth your time, fellow fans, I promise! MaesterSam, you will find plenty of people on Last Hearth to discuss this theory over there! lol What are we, chopped liver??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 Lol - I told you it was the good sort of mindfuck!! Don't worry, I'm sure George has changed some things, as he always does. But yeah, BB is on to something, no doubt. I too recommend it to everyone, it's great work. Yeah, some really good stuff in there. My only reservation - and its a big one - is the same one which applies to stuff like the Heart of Darkness stuff. I don't see any reason to doubt that a whole lot of that stuff has been used in ASOIAF. It helps to build the framework for GRRM's world but its still his story and his outcomes.We know that he recycles a lot of his own stuff, but there are two ways this can work. He's either had an idea which he wants to develop further, a sub-plot perhaps which he may want to turn into the main event, or a short story such as the Ice Dragon which he wants to explore further, or, most excitingly he wants to explore a different outcome. What happens if a key character turns right rather than left at a critical moment, and so on.While I agree on reading the thesis that Marvel has provided a big source of inspiration in assembling his own richly varied cast of thousands, I think that ultimately they are his characters and moving in his strange and mysterious ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Yeah, some really good stuff in there. My only reservation - and its a big one - is the same one which applies to stuff like the Heart of Darkness stuff. I don't see any reason to doubt that a whole lot of that stuff has been used in ASOIAF. It helps to build the framework for GRRM's world but its still his story and his outcomes.We know that he recycles a lot of his own stuff, but there are two ways this can work. He's either had an idea which he wants to develop further, a sub-plot perhaps which he may want to turn into the main event, or a short story such as the Ice Dragon which he wants to explore further, or, most excitingly he wants to explore a different outcome. What happens if a key character turns right rather than left at a critical moment, and so on.While I agree on reading the thesis that Marvel has provided a big source of inspiration in assembling his own richly varied cast of thousands, I think that ultimately they are his characters and moving in his strange and mysterious ways. yes, I could not agree more with the sentiment. The outcomes are the most likely things to be changed from whatever the original inspiration is. And when you consider that he's drawing inspiration from like 100 different things, it's inevitable that all of them will have to be changed to fit the larger tapestry which George is creating. And of course, I don't think anyone is accusing George is plagiarizing... rather, he's participating in the grand literary tradition of recycling myths and themes and paying homage to those who came before. And yes, he's a big fan of inverting just about any idea or symbol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 Indeed and the clever stuff here lies in distinguishing between what he's actually picking up and running with - in whatever direction - and what is simply a homage. There's certainly stuff in the World Book which is coming out of Lovecraft, but its in the background and I really can't see a story about Westeros hinging on defeating Dread Cthulhu.Euron remains one of the interesting questions in that on the face of it there may well be a connection to the Old Powers, but that's not to say that in the end this will prove significant. Identifying him as a lesser demon doesn't necessarily mean that he's one of the big bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 If George is indeed drawing upon the Marvel comics, is it really any different than he already is doing with his Wild Cards series? He likes to conspire with his sci-fi/fantasy writer friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 There's nothing wrong with drawing on the early Marvel comics, or anywhere else for that matter. He needs to get his inspiration from somewhere, especially on such a big project.We've always delved into identifying those sources in heresy, partly for the fun of it and partly in the hopes of gaining some insight as to where he may be going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Again, he is clearly influenced by many sources, after all is that how people inspire themselves, some may even be only coincidences. And sometimes, you see similarities whenever you want to see them.ASOIAF may have a lot of influences, but is ultimately its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 MaesterSam, you will find plenty of people on Last Hearth to discuss this theory over there! lol What are we, chopped liver??? Hahaha, don't worry, I will put in my two cents' worth over there as well, once I have re-read it and have a fuller understanding of who's who. Last Hearth disappeared for a while, no? I used to be over there all the time, then took a break (due to work getting in the way) and it was gone! Glad it's back, and I'm sure I'll be seeing you over there as well. But it's definitely worth discussing here too- I feel like it really helps clear up some things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterSam Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 There's nothing wrong with drawing on the early Marvel comics, or anywhere else for that matter. He needs to get his inspiration from somewhere, especially on such a big project.We've always delved into identifying those sources in heresy, partly for the fun of it and partly in the hopes of gaining some insight as to where he may be going.Agreed! In some instances, knowing the sources can really help with evaluating the likelihood of a particular theory. For example, we've gone back and forth here for months (years?) about whether it's one or two individuals communicating with Bran. In other words, is BR the 3EC, or is it BR and the 3EC that are sending him dreams? In the comics, the "chosen one" (who happens to be crippled and then has to make a long journey) is indeed influenced by two characters, one of whom is an old sorcerer in a cave and the other being a somewhat evil, magically inclined individual with three eyes. In some images, this 3-eyed character is shown with an eye patch. His "third eye" gives him the same sorts of abilities as in ASOIAF, and is in his forehead. So that pretty much answers that question.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Agreed! In some instances, knowing the sources can really help with evaluating the likelihood of a particular theory. For example, we've gone back and forth here for months (years?) about whether it's one or two individuals communicating with Bran. In other words, is BR the 3EC, or is it BR and the 3EC that are sending him dreams? In the comics, the "chosen one" (who happens to be crippled and then has to make a long journey) is indeed influenced by two characters, one of whom is an old sorcerer in a cave and the other being a somewhat evil, magically inclined individual with three eyes. In some images, this 3-eyed character is shown with an eye patch. His "third eye" gives him the same sorts of abilities as in ASOIAF, and is in his forehead. So that pretty much answers that question.... It doesn't, though, because Martin may be combining these two in the person of Bloodraven. I've seen him combine like that as well as split one influence into two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 It doesn't, though, because Martin may be combining these two in the person of Bloodraven. I've seen him combine like that as well as split one influence into two. I agree. I think there's a practical problem in separating the Three-eyed Crow from Bloodraven, or rather in identifying the Crow as Euron in that whatever he might be up to the fact of the matter is that Bran has been summoned and convoyed north to the Cave of Skulls and Bloodraven, while Euron so far as we know is on the high seas.Its possible of course that its his dead minions who are "besieging" the cave, but I still think that the Heart of Darkness parallel is stronger here and that they are Bloodraven's.This isn't to say that Euron doesn't have a connection; since both the text and the Marvel stuff suggest it might be there, but if it does exist I'd be inclined to see it more in the nature of Mel's relationship with Benero and the Red Temple rather than outright opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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