The Heresy essays: X+Y=J Ned + Wylla

[Luddagain]

You realise that Ned would have left Dorne towards the end of 283 AC, and Edric Dayne was not born until 287 AC, right? Much more than 9 months after Ned left for home.

We actually do not know when Ned left Dorne.  We do know that Jon was there well before Catelyn arrived with Robb.

What we know is that Jon was born about the end of the rebellion and Sansa about 3.5 years later.  We can more or less assume that by the time Jon was 2.75 and Robb 3yrs, that Ned was settled with Catelyn in Winterfell.

Hpwever Ned Dayne seems to have been almost one year older than Sansa. We meet him roughly a year into the story  or just a little less I think. Sansa must have been just 12 at this time (Obviously Sansa is a very young 11 when we meet her because when we see her in feast she is still not yet 14).

He is reported as 12 but this probably means he is an oldish 12 given that he takes part in fighting, so I am guessing that there is 10 months or so age gap between Sansa and Ned Dayne. This means that the age gap between Jon and Ned Dayne is roughly 1 yr 11 months. (23 months)

Now if Jon was a milk brother to Ned Dayne we have to assume that  he was nursed by Wylla for at least 12 months or so (more like 18 months), before moving North. Obviously Wylla did NOT travel with him, or Jon would have known much more about his mother, Dorne etc -servants talk etc.

This narrows our window of time quite a bit.  Ned arrives back to Winterfell when Jon is no older than 2 yrs 9 months, (Ned Dayne 10 months or so) and no younger than 15 months (Ned Dayne 8 months short of birth ie JUST CONCEIVED).

[corbon]

You know I was going to let this pass, but I do have a valid point and I'm not sure why it is so hard to grasp. The order of events according to Edric's story is this:

1.  Eddard and Ashara meet and fall in love at Harrenhall.

2.  Ashara gives birth to Eddard's still born child.

Ned Dayne never mentions Ashara having a child.

3.  Eddard, the man that Ashara loves, marries Catelyn, giving her a child.

Ned Dayne never mentions Catelyn and Ned getting married.

4.  Eddard meets Wylla and also has a living child with her.

Ned Dayne doesn't speculate on when Ned met Wylla or how long they had a relationship .

5.  Eddard kills Ashara's brother.

6.  Eddard returns Arthur's sword and leaves the mother of his "love child" at Starfall.

7.  Ashara kills herself with grief.

This story makes some sense in that Ashara would have received several severe emotional blows, except for the fact that Ashara's family was unlikely to take in the mother of Eddard's "love child". When a member of your family is already weathering a series of emotional blows you don't intentionally bring in an element that can only cause more pain.

Ned Dayne's story doesn't make sense at all given that we know Ned Stark pretty well.
Mr never-the-boy-he-was, precious honour, shamed himself before gods and men just at the thought of having a bastard when he'd known his new wife for less than a week before being parted from her at war? Your timeline is twisted with your added inventions. Ned was in love with Ashara but fucking Wylla?

Ned Dayne's source for that is just as unreliable - his Aunt Allyria, betrothed for 6 years to a Lord in his earlymid twenties but not yet married, so clearly far to young to have been around and cognisant of her elders thoughts and feelings 20 years ago...

This is why I say that it is unlikely that Wylla entered into the service of the Daynes after arriving with Ned and Jon, unless the Daynes fully understood that she was nothing more than Jon's wetnurse. This brings us back to the original objection that I had to point in the essay that it made some difference if Wylla entered into the Dayne household before or after Jon's birth. Either way the Daynes would have provided a place for her only if they understood her to be nothing more than Jon's wetnurse.

Except that Ned and Ashara were never connected. The evidence for it is literally laughable, mere gossip by people who weren't around them and most of it directly attributable to Ned taking Jon away from Starfall while Ashara supposedly commits suicide.
So if there is no N+A, and possibly even no suicide, the only thing Ned's ever done to the Daynes is be responsible for the death of Arthur, which is fair enough in a time of war given that they were on opposite sides and neither had the choice of surrendering. Besides which Arthur's given up his family, he's a KG.
And Ned more than balanced that by returning Dawn, the House-foundational, unique, 10,000 plus year old super-artifact that he could have kept as spoils of war...

Really, there is no reason at all why the Daynes should have anything but utmost respect for Ned Stark. And no reason that fs he gave them a recommendation for the services of a wetnurse they wouldn't take her in whether they knew she was part of a plot or knew nothing at all.

We actually do not know when Ned left Dorne.  We do know that Jon was there well before Catelyn arrived with Robb.

What we know is that Jon was born about the end of the rebellion and Sansa about 3.5 years later.  We can more or less assume that by the time Jon was 2.75 and Robb 3yrs, that Ned was settled with Catelyn in Winterfell
....
This narrows our window of time quite a bit.  Ned arrives back to Winterfell when Jon is no older than 2 yrs 9 months, (Ned Dayne 10 months or so) and no younger than 15 months (Ned Dayne 8 months short of birth ie JUST CONCEIVED).

Its much narrower than that. Catelyn says that Ned was away from her a year. There is no mucking around for months or years down south after the war. He left 4-6 months in, and was back 4-6 months after the Sack of KL.

   Obviously Wylla did NOT travel with him, or Jon would have known much more about his mother, Dorne etc -servants talk etc.

 

No, they don't, not in Winterfell, not about Jon, or at least not once Cat screwed up her courage to ask Ned...
Ned was very fierce about that. "Never ask me about Jon" and then all the gossip stopped.
Someone travelled to Winterfell, as a wetnurse, surely. But whoever it was, Wylla or some other nobody, no one in Winterfell thinks of them.
Wylla was never more than a wetnurse. Neither Ned (Stark) nor Wylla are ever shown to claim otherwise. She can easily travel to Winterfell, nurse Jon until he is weaned and then be sent back to Starfall. Its a much simpler, safer and more sensible way for Ned to act and entirely consistent with all of his behaviour and actions. Jon doesn't remember her because he was too young and she's not important anyway, just a wetnurse.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

We actually do not know when Ned left Dorne.  We do know that Jon was there well before Catelyn arrived with Robb.

What we know is that Jon was born about the end of the rebellion and Sansa about 3.5 years later.  We can more or less assume that by the time Jon was 2.75 and Robb 3yrs, that Ned was settled with Catelyn in Winterfell.

Hpwever Ned Dayne seems to have been almost one year older than Sansa. We meet him roughly a year into the story  or just a little less I think. Sansa must have been just 12 at this time (Obviously Sansa is a very young 11 when we meet her because when we see her in feast she is still not yet 14).

He is reported as 12 but this probably means he is an oldish 12 given that he takes part in fighting, so I am guessing that there is 10 months or so age gap between Sansa and Ned Dayne. This means that the age gap between Jon and Ned Dayne is roughly 1 yr 11 months. (23 months)

Now if Jon was a milk brother to Ned Dayne we have to assume that  he was nursed by Wylla for at least 12 months or so (more like 18 months), before moving North. Obviously Wylla did NOT travel with him, or Jon would have known much more about his mother, Dorne etc -servants talk etc.

This narrows our window of time quite a bit.  Ned arrives back to Winterfell when Jon is no older than 2 yrs 9 months, (Ned Dayne 10 months or so) and no younger than 15 months (Ned Dayne 8 months short of birth ie JUST CONCEIVED).

Actually, we kind of do know.

We know Ned and Catelyn were married very, very early in 283 AC. We also know they spend a year apart. Not 2, not 3, but 1. That places Catelyn's arrival at Winterfell about a year later, early in 284 AC. Ned had already arrived before, so late 283 AC, or very early in 284 AC.

As to the ages of the children... Sansa's birth has been clearly established to have been in 286 AC. Edric Dayne's birth in 287. So he's younger than her, not older.

Next, there is no reason to assume that Jon had to have been nursed for at least 12 months by Wylla, in order to call him a milk brother to Edric. He would have qualified for that if he was nursed by her only once.

 

So yeah, it narrows the time window quite a bit, but not at all the way you suggest. What we do see, however, is that the scenario you suggest isn't possible.

[bent branch]

Ned Dayne never mentions Ashara having a child.

Ned Dayne never mentions Catelyn and Ned getting married.

Ned Dayne doesn't speculate on when Ned met Wylla or how long they had a relationship .

Ned Dayne's story doesn't make sense at all given that we know Ned Stark pretty well.
Mr never-the-boy-he-was, precious honour, shamed himself before gods and men just at the thought of having a bastard when he'd known his new wife for less than a week before being parted from her at war? Your timeline is twisted with your added inventions. Ned was in love with Ashara but fucking Wylla?

Ned Dayne's source for that is just as unreliable - his Aunt Allyria, betrothed for 6 years to a Lord in his earlymid twenties but not yet married, so clearly far to young to have been around and cognisant of her elders thoughts and feelings 20 years ago...

Except that Ned and Ashara were never connected. The evidence for it is literally laughable, mere gossip by people who weren't around them and most of it directly attributable to Ned taking Jon away from Starfall while Ashara supposedly commits suicide.
So if there is no N+A, and possibly even no suicide, the only thing Ned's ever done to the Daynes is be responsible for the death of Arthur, which is fair enough in a time of war given that they were on opposite sides and neither had the choice of surrendering. Besides which Arthur's given up his family, he's a KG.
And Ned more than balanced that by returning Dawn, the House-foundational, unique, 10,000 plus year old super-artifact that he could have kept as spoils of war...

Really, there is no reason at all why the Daynes should have anything but utmost respect for Ned Stark. And no reason that fs he gave them a recommendation for the services of a wetnurse they wouldn't take her in whether they knew she was part of a plot or knew nothing at all.

 

I have invented nothing. What I did was apply Edric Dayne's story to the established timeline and known facts.

Established timeline:

1. Ashara Dayne is "dishonored" at Harrenhall and has a stillborn child.

2.  Eddard marries Catelyn and fathers Robb.

3.  Jon Snow is born. There are some people who speculate Jon is older than Robb, but I am sticking with the fact established in the story.

4.  Eddard kills Arthur and then returns Dawn to Starfall.

5.  Ashara Dayne leaps to her death.

The elements that are added by Edric's story is that Ashara was in love with Eddard and killed herself because of that, and that Wylla is Jon's mother.

The reason I added the elements of Edric's story to the timeline is because of a concept called intellectual honesty. Despite what some people think intellectual honesty is, it is about keeping yourself honest with yourself and attempting to look past your own biases. The simple fact is that I don't believe much of the story about Ashara, Wylla or Jon Snow. What I think happened and is happening is completely different. But in order to keep my mind open, I try to look at the other person's argument in the best light possible. And the simple fact is that if you add the elements of Edric's story to the established timeline and known facts, it isn't really that much of a stretch to think it might be true despite what we are told about Eddard's honor.

The part of the argument that fails for me is the idea that the Daynes would take in Wylla if she was Jon's mother. In order to satisfy "honor" all they had to do when Eddard requested they help Wylla say something like, "Well, the Johnsons are looking for a wetnurse. We can send Wylla with a letter of recommendation and an escort to them." We have seen other instances in the story where people helped other people out with getting someone settled without having to take that individual into their own home. And if all that Wylla was was Jon's mother, then there wouldn't be any need to do anything more than this no matter how much they respected Eddard.

[corbon]

I have invented nothing. What I did was apply Edric Dayne's story to the established timeline and known facts.

Established timeline:

1. Ashara Dayne is "dishonored" at Harrenhall and has a stillborn child.

2.  Eddard marries Catelyn and fathers Robb.

3.  Jon Snow is born. There are some people who speculate Jon is older than Robb, but I am sticking with the fact established in the story.

4.  Eddard kills Arthur and then returns Dawn to Starfall.

5.  Ashara Dayne leaps to her death.

The elements that are added by Edric's story is that Ashara was in love with Eddard and killed herself because of that, and that Wylla is Jon's mother.

The reason I added the elements of Edric's story to the timeline is because of a concept called intellectual honesty. Despite what some people think intellectual honesty is, it is about keeping yourself honest with yourself and attempting to look past your own biases. The simple fact is that I don't believe much of the story about Ashara, Wylla or Jon Snow. What I think happened and is happening is completely different. But in order to keep my mind open, I try to look at the other person's argument in the best light possible.

I see, I completely misread what you were doing, sorry.

And the simple fact is that if you add the elements of Edric's story to the established timeline and known facts, it isn't really that much of a stretch to think it might be true despite what we are told about Eddard's honor.

We disagree. I think its a quite ridiculous stretch to think that the Ned who we see in thought and conversation with Robert, and who agonises over how he's treated Catelyn (who was a stranger at the time, and finds him having a bastard perfectly acceptable in the circumstances, just not bringing the bastard to raise in his own home), could have been in love with Ashara yet having a child with Wylla after marrying Catelyn...

The part of the argument that fails for me is the idea that the Daynes would take in Wylla if she was Jon's mother. In order to satisfy "honor" all they had to do when Eddard requested they help Wylla say something like, "Well, the Johnsons are looking for a wetnurse. We can send Wylla with a letter of recommendation and an escort to them." We have seen other instances in the story where people helped other people out with getting someone settled without having to take that individual into their own home. And if all that Wylla was was Jon's mother, then there wouldn't be any need to do anything more than this no matter how much they respected Eddard.

I see. Well, assuming Wylla is Jon's mother (never mind that for all that this essay has tried, it just shows the gaping holes in the theory), why should't they?
Ned just returned Dawn to them. That is incomprehensibly huge given how it factors into their House identity and history. Far far bigger than the death of its carrier. If Ned says 'please look after Wylla for me, then I can't see how we can objectively deny that they might fall over themselves to do that.