Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Lost Melnibonean

Friends in the Reach

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

1. He never said that, actually. And do you know what he'll do when he is preparing to declare to the faithful that the Seven have revealed to him in a dream that this boy who calls himself Aegon Targaryen is indeed Prince Rhaegar's son and the rightful King of Westeros? He'll most likely help to destabilize the Lannister-Tyrell alliance if it still exists by that time. In addition there are other factors to consider:

With Kevan dead, we don't know whether Mace will go through with a Faith trial - he doesn't have to, after all, Margaery and her cousins have already been freed - and if he doesn't, the Faith most certainly will declare her guilty in absentia, effectively dissolving the marriage in the eyes of the Faith and those adhering to the Faith.

If there is a trial, Margaery will have to face seven judges who may not look all favorably on her case. Especially not if Tyene Sand ends up becoming one of them. She has been sent to infiltrate the Faith, after all. In addition, we have Varys still in the city, possibly the man behind the sudden rise of the new High Septon (whether the man himself knows that or not). He would also have an interest to see Margaery convicted, and may also have the means to ensure that.

2. Man, did I ever say anything about Aegon marrying Margaery?! Did Aegon the Conqueror marry Harlan Tyrell's daughter? No. Mace might just end the marriage between Tommen and Margaery to distance himself from the doomed king and join King Aegon in the last possible moment to save his face and his lordship/life.

3. Well, neither you no I really know what Mace is going to do when he feels he is a desperate situation. And you should reread the books - Margaery Tyrell isn't a murderous schemer. She might have been complicit in Joff's murder, but she is more a trained pawn in all that, not a player. Keep in mind that she is only 16. There is also no real textual basis for the assumption that Mace Tyrell didn't know what Olenna was doing and just played along.

4. That has nothing to do with the topic, either. The younger and more beautiful queen (which could be Arianne Martell, by the way, as Aegon's wife!) is going to take things away from Cersei. She is not supposed to kill her remaining children. And the valonqar doesn't have anything to do with the whole thing at all. He is going to kill Cersei - or apparently going to kill her - in the very end. This could very well be months or years after the death of her last child. Cersei is still the Lady of Casterly Rock, after all.

5, Well, because the spouses no longer lived together and neither Cersei nor Mace had any indication to allow their children to every share a room together? Tommen is the king. He doesn't have to jump through the motion to set aside a wife. He can just do it. Or his regent can in his name (which Cersei in such a situation would most likely claim to be).

In addition, you seem to fail the irrelevancy of the Tommen-Margaery marriage in the eyes of the Tyrells if the political landscape suddenly changes (i.e. if they lose a major battle against Aegon. A family member yours easily can be married to the member of a house you fight against. Alester Florent was Selyse's uncle yet he still supported Renly and had no problem attacking Stannis at Storm's End. Emmon Frey is Walder Frey's son yet Lord Walder had no problem either to war against the Lannisters.

If Mace Tyrell wants he can submit to Aegon without even annulling the marriage between Tommen and Margaery. Not all alliances are sealed with a marriage, and if Aegon gains the swords of House Tyrell he is not necessarily going to complain about the fact that Mace's daughter is married to some boy he is going to kill anyway if he can lay a hand on him. By the way, this is another option:

6. Mace Tyrell realizes Aegon will take the city whatever he is going to do. He has 'King Tommen' arrested and handed over to Aegon and the Golden Company along with KL and the Red Keep. Should Aegon and Jon Connington do the dirty work (i.e. kill young Tommen). That way his hands stay somewhat cleaner.

1. Who Obama? 

2. Well that would be a pretty wimpy move. Mace is a proud lord, not a eunuch. 

3. It's hard to consider your arguments when you contradict yourself. 

4. I was agreeing with you and you still find something to argue about. 

5. Why do you believe a king can divorce his wife on his own authority? Have we ever seen this before? 

6. ...Wait a minute... There were six? I thought there were only five. Are you trying to slip another one in here? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

1. Who Obama? 

2. Well that would be a pretty wimpy move. Mace is a proud lord, not a eunuch. 

3. It's hard to consider your arguments when you contradict yourself. 

4. I was agreeing with you and you still find something to argue about. 

5. Why do you believe a king can divorce his wife on his own authority? Have we ever seen this before? 

6. ...Wait a minute... There were six? I thought there were only five. Are you trying to slip another one in here? 

1. The High Septon.

2. Come on, Harlan Tyrell yielded Highgarden, too, without trying get any concessions. Caving in to a higher power is in the Tyrell nature. Just look how they did not even try to participate in the Dance.

3. I'm giving you options here, they are mutually exclusive.

4. It didn't sound like agreement considering that you were talking about irrelevant stuff like the valonqar prophecy.

5. We know that kings in the past have set aside their wives. First Men kings, for example, who would have done this thing without involving the Faith, and we know the Kings on the Iron Throne could have done that (Baelor set aside Daena, Aerys I's advisers urge him to set aside Aelinor Penrose, Cersei feared Robert would set aside her). Considering that nobody is going to believe that Tommen has actually consummated his marriage to Margaery Tyrells there shouldn't be any trouble getting rid of that marriage. Pretty nobody should actually consider them to be real spouses because, you know, fucking is an integral part of the concept of marriage.

6. Yeah, you wanted ways in which the Tyrells could get rid of their Lannister alliance. There are not just five possible options. I could even imagine a seventh:

7. Cersei decides to formally end the Lannister-Tyrell alliance by publicly declaring Mace a traitor and murderer, beginning a war within the Red Keep itself (or vice versa, Mace does that by publicly declaring Cersei the murderess of Ser Kevan and throwing her in a black cell). Margaery's marriage to Tommen isn't going to survive open hostilities, at least not in a political sense. Just as Lord Florent didn't give a rat's ass about his niece's marriage to Stannis prior to Renly's death. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

1. The High Septon.

2. Come on, Harlan Tyrell yielded Highgarden, too, without trying get any concessions. Caving in to a higher power is in the Tyrell nature. Just look how they did not even try to participate in the Dance.

3. I'm giving you options here, they are mutually exclusive.

4. It didn't sound like agreement considering that you were talking about irrelevant stuff like the valonqar prophecy.

5. We know that kings in the past have set aside their wives. First Men kings, for example, who would have done this thing without involving the Faith, and we know the Kings on the Iron Throne could have done that (Baelor set aside Daena, Aerys I's advisers urge him to set aside Aelinor Penrose, Cersei feared Robert would set aside her). Considering that nobody is going to believe that Tommen has actually consummated his marriage to Margaery Tyrells there shouldn't be any trouble getting rid of that marriage. Pretty nobody should actually consider them to be real spouses because, you know, fucking is an integral part of the concept of marriage.

6. Yeah, you wanted ways in which the Tyrells could get rid of their Lannister alliance. There are not just five possible options. I could even imagine a seventh:

7. Cersei decides to formally end the Lannister-Tyrell alliance by publicly declaring Mace a traitor and murderer, beginning a war within the Red Keep itself (or vice versa, Mace does that by publicly declaring Cersei the murderess of Ser Kevan and throwing her in a black cell). Margaery's marriage to Tommen isn't going to survive open hostilities, at least not in a political sense. Just as Lord Florent didn't give a rat's ass about his niece's marriage to Stannis prior to Renly's death. 

Oh, Jiminy Cricket. Might as well go ahead and make the eight...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's another reason Tarly might turn on Tyrell... Dickon's potential claim on Brightwater. You see, Alester Florent and his son Alekyne were dispossessed of Brightwater after the Battle of the Blackwater. Alester Florent's eldest daughter, however, is Dickon's mum. Now, Mace secured the grant of Brightwater for his second son, Garlan, but Aegon, owing nothing to Florent, could promise to honor Dickon's potential claim in return for Randyll's support. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Here's another reason Tarly might turn on Tyrell... Dickon's potential claim on Brightwater. You see, Alester Florent and his son Alekyne were dispossessed of Brightwater after the Battle of the Blackwater. Alester Florent's eldest daughter, however, is Dickon's mum. Now, Mace secured the grant of Brightwater for his second son, Garlan, but Aegon, owing nothing to Florent, could promise to honor Dickon's potential claim in return for Randyll's support. 

Or not. Perhaps Aegon doesn't give a rat's ass about the Tarly claim to Brightwater and instead decides not to antagonize Leyton Hightower (who is married to Alester Florent's other daughter) and right now harbors Alekyne Florent, Lord Alester Florent's rightful son and heir.

The idea that Tarly would Mace just betray because Aegon *might* reward him doesn't make any sense. And there is no evidence whatsoever that Randyll Tarly has any direct connection or friendly relationship with anyone in camp Aegon.

Stannis also *might* have rewarded Tarly had he declared for him, but he chose not to follow the lead of his father-in-law, Lord Alester Florent. Instead he helped to imprison his wife's first cousin (Selyse's brother Erren Florent) at Highgarden and put a lot of levies in service of Lord Alester at Bitterbridge to death. The idea that this man has any chance to claim Brightwater for his son doesn't make much sense considering how the Florents and their vassals and levies would right now feel about him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Add House Cuy to the list of Aegon’s “friends in the Reach.” House Cuy first backed Renly in the War of the Five Kings...

Quote

"Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . even House Florent, your own wife's brothers and uncles, they will make me king.”

Catelyn III, Clash 31

Emmon Cuy, the Yellow, was named to Renly’s Rainbow Guard. He did his duty as best he could...

Quote

The candles within Renly's pavilion made the shimmering silken walls seem to glow, transforming the great tent into a magical castle alive with emerald light. Two of the Rainbow Guard stood sentry at the door to the royal pavilion. The green light shone strangely against the purple plums of Ser Parmen's surcoat, and gave a sickly hue to the sunflowers that covered every inch of Ser Emmon's enameled yellow plate. Long silken plumes flew from their helms, and rainbow cloaks draped their shoulders.

...

Only a few instants passed before Robar Royce and Emmon Cuy came bursting in, though it felt like half the night. A pair of men-at-arms crowded in behind with torches. When they saw Renly in Brienne's arms, and her drenched with the king's blood, Ser Robar gave a cry of horror. "Wicked woman!" screamed Ser Emmon, he of the sunflowered steel. "Away from him, you vile creature!"

...

"You'll die for this." Ser Emmon snatched up a long-handled battleaxe from the weapons piled near the door. "You'll pay for the king's life with your own!"

...

"She is innocent, Robar. You have my word, on my husband's grave and my honor as a Stark!"

That resolved him. "I will hold them," Ser Robar said. "Get her away." He turned and went out.

The fire had reached the wall and was creeping up the side of the tent. Ser Emmon was pressing Brienne hard, him in his enameled yellow steel and her in wool. He had forgotten Catelyn, until the iron brazier came crashing into the back of his head. Helmed as he was, the blow did no lasting harm, but it sent him to his knees. "Brienne, with me," Catelyn commanded. The girl was not slow to see the chance. A slash, and the green silk parted. They stepped out into darkness and the chill of dawn.

Catelyn IV, Clash 33

Loras Tyrell killed Emmon Cuy...

Quote

It's said the Knight of Flowers went mad when he saw his king's body, and slew three of Renly's guards in his wrath, among them Emmon Cuy and Robar Royce."

Tyrion VIII, Clash 36

Emmon continued to accuse Brienne of Renly’s murder until Loras killed him...

Quote

"It was Brienne," insisted Lord Caron. "Ser Emmon Cuy swore as much before he died. You have my oath on that, Ser Cortnay."

Davos II, Clash 42

Quote

"Emmon Cuy swore it was, with his dying breath."

Jaime VII, Storm 62

It was lucky for Brienne that Cately convinced Robar that Brienne was not guilty of Renly’s murder...

Quote

“On a good day you might have been able to defeat Ser Emmon. He was a rash fighter, and he tired easily. Royce, though? No. Ser Robar was twice the swordsman that you are . . .”

Brienne III, Feast 14

Loras later withdrew his accusation against Brienne...

Quote

"I . . . it may be it happened as she says, ser. That it was Stannis. I cannot be certain."

Jaime IX, Storm 72

As per the Appendix to Feast, Branston Cuy is Lord of Sunflower Hall and sworn to The Hightower. House Cuy attended the traitor’s tourney...

Quote

Butterwell's stewards had found rooms in the keep for the lords and ladies, and beds in the barracks for their retinues. The rest of the guests had their choice between a straw pallet in the cellar, or a spot of ground beneath the western walls to raise their pavilions. The modest sailcloth tent Dunk had acquired in Stoney Sept was no pavilion, but it kept the rain and sun off. Some of his neighbors were still awake, the silken walls of their pavilions glowing like colored lanterns in the night. Laughter came from inside a blue pavilion covered with sunflowers, and the sounds of love from one striped in white and purple. Egg had set up their own tent a bit apart from the others. Maester and the two horses were hobbled nearby, and Dunk's arms and armor had been neatly stacked against the castle walls. When he crept into the tent, he found his squire sitting cross-legged by a candle, his head shining as he peered over a book.

The Mystery Knight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, I got the idea for these Reach houses backing Aegon from a box in TWOIAF that listed eleven houses descended from Garth Greenhand. Well, there's another box in TWOIAF, for six Dornish king's sent to the Wall where they would have taken the black. Since Martell appears likely to back Aegon in the Second Dance of the Dragons, perhaps these Dornish houses will defy Martell and follow Daenerys against Aegon...

Yronwood Daenerys I, Game 3, we learned that Dorne was one of the regions of Westeros, and that Princess Elia of Dorne and her children were murdered during the Sack of King’s Landing. The first time we learned of House Martell’s existence was in Sansa  V, Game 57, when Joffrey commanded “Doran Martell, Prince of Dorne, and all his sons,” “to present themselves and swear their fealty to Joffrey,” or to “be adjudged traitors, their lands and titles forfeit to the throne.” Varys told us in Eddard XV, Game 58 that the Martells still brood on the murder of Princess Elia and her babes. So, we knew that there was blood between Houses Martell and Lannister. Until his premature death, Dorne was generally expected to back Renly, but in Tyrion IV, Clash 17, we learned that Doran Martell had called his banners, but had so far remained aloof from the War of the Five Kings. From the Appendix to Game, we knew that Houses Yronwood, Fowler, and Dayne were among eight principal houses sworn to House Martell of Dorne. In The Tales of Dunk and Egg, we bagan to see the rivalry between Dorne and the Marcher Lords of the Stormlands, and notwithstanding the physical descriptions of the Daynes, we learned that Dornishmen tended to have olive skin and dark hair. In Tyrion V, Clash 20, we began to learn that Dorne had a rivalry with the Reach as well as the Marcher Lords. To win House Martell’s allegiance, Tyrion offered to wed Myrcella to Trystane and deliver her into Doran’s power. He also offered Doran a seat on the Small Council and justice for Elia Martell. Interestingly, before Renly’s death, Doran accepted Tyrion’s proposal. Tyrion sent Aerys Oakheart with Myrcella to Dorne, but he understood that Dorne would not march on Stannis or Tyrell. In Sansa I, Storm 6, we learned that Oberyn Martell crippled Willas Tyrell in a tourney mishap several years earlier, and in Tyrion III, Storm 19, we learned that Mace still held the grudge. Tyrion told us in Tyrion V, Storm 38 that there salty Dornishmen lived along the coasts, sandy Dornishmen lived in the deserts and long river valleys, and stony Dornishmen made their fastnesses in the passes and heights of the Red Mountains. The salty Dornishmen had the most Rhoynish blood, and the stony Dornishmen the least. After meeting Oberyn, and later Arianne, we realized that Houses Yronwood, Dayne, Fowler, Blackmont, and Mandwoody were stony Dornishmen, and House Martell were salty Dornishmen. And we learned that there was blood between House Yronwood and Oberyn Martell. Doran sent Oberyn, the saltiest Dornishman of all, to claim Doran’s seat on the council and accept the Lannister justice Tyrion promised. When Tywin tried to appease Oberyn by naming the deceased Amory Lorch for the murders of Elia and her children, Oberyn likely poisoned Tywin secretly, and then offered to stand for Tyrion against Gregor for Cersei in Tyrion’s trial by battle for the murder of Joffrey. In the Appendix to Storm, we learned that the Lord of Yronwood was named Anders. In The Captain of the Guards, Feast 2, we learned that Doran had a host in the Prince's Pass, and Lord Anders had another in the Boneway. In payment for the Yronwood blood Oberyn had spilled, Doran sent his son Quentyn to foster at Yronwood, where he served as page and squire and took his knighthood. And we learned that House Yronwood rode with Bittersteel during three of the Blackfyre Rebellions, presumably, against House Martell. Arianne expected to have to fight House Yronwood eventually over the question of Dornish succession, and she told us that Yronwood was the most powerful Martell bannerman. Doran told us that Anders was more of a father to Quentyn than Doran was. On Doran’s order, Anders’s heir Cletus, Yronwood’s maester, and three of Lord Yronwood's best young knights were dispatched with Quentyn on a long and perilous voyage, with an uncertain welcome at its end. All but Archibald Yronwood and Gerris Drinkwater would perish. Before he died, Quentyn noted that Anders had sent his own son to keep Quentyn safe. Although Gerris blamed Quentyn’s failure on Daenerys, Archibald, who impressed Barristan as the true steel, did not appear to blame her, instead looking to aid Barristan so they might return to Dorne. In Winds, Arriane suggests that there is a rivalry between the Sand Snakes and House Yronwood, and that she has always been closer to the Sand Snakes.

Dayne Since Gerold Dayne was blamed for the death of Arys Oakheart, and since Daynes have been killing Oakhearts for thousands of years, it seems likely that these two houses could stand against each other in the Second Dance of the Dragons. House Dayne and House Hightower also have a history of fighting against each other. There's also the history with House Martell. Nymeria took the Sword of the Morning as her third successive consort. However, Martell's daughter, not Dayne's son, succeeded Nymeria as ruler of Dorne. 

Fowler We really don't know much about House Fowler, but we do know that traditionally, House Fowler is as great a house as Yronwood and Dayne. Like House Dayne, they joined Nymeria and House Martell against House Yronwood after their king had been sent off to take the black. Nymeria Sand is very close to the Fowler twins, and Lord Franklin Fowler has never gotten along with Anders Yronwood. 

Uller The Ullers “raised a grim, stinking seat beside the sulfurous yellow waters of the Brimstone” The World of Iace and Fire. Like Houses Dayne and Fowler, House Uller joined Nymeria against House Yronwood after she had sent it’s lord off to take the black. Before she wed a Dayne, Nymeria wed an Uller, but it does not appear that they had any sons. Harmen Uller, Lord of Hellholt, and his brother Ser Ulwyck accompanied Oberyn to King’s Landing, and Ellaria Sand, Oberyn’s paramour and mother of the youngest sandsnakes, was the natural daughter of Harmen. Ellaria worshiped a Lysene love goddess. This Lysene Love goddess could be the Weeping Lady of Lys. If so, the author might be drawing a connection between love and death. Arianne intended to crown Myrcella at Hellholt. When Arianne pondered which house other than Yronwood might cow her father, she settled on Fowler and Uller. She decided to approach Fowler though since, “Half of the Ullers are half-mad, the saying went, and the other half are worse.” Although Doran said, “Ellaria and her daughters are happily ensconced at the Water Gardens,” Arianne noted that Harmen was probably upset by Doran’s imprisoning Ellaria and the youngest of the sandsnakes. The Princess in the Tower, Feast 40. Along with Dagos Manwoody and the Fowler twins, the Ullers declined Ricasso’s toast on behalf of Doran in The Watcher, Dance. Realizing that unrest was coming to Dorne, Ellaria scattered her four sandsnakes, taking Loreza with her to Hellholt, leaving Dorea at the Water Gardens to play in the pools and Obella at Sunspear to serve as a cupbearer, and sending Elia off with Arianne. Would three little natural granddaughters born of his own natural daughter be sufficient hostages to prevent House Uller from Aegon? 

Blackmont would be especially interesting since "Lady Blackmont's brood" is at the Water Gardens guarded by only ten spears. Those are interesting details the author gave us. Fluff? Since Lady Larra Blackmont accompanied Oberyn to King’s Landing with her daughter Jynessa and her son Perros, I would assume Jynessa and Perros are the brood at the Water Gardens. Notably, House Blackmont continued to fight with House Yronwood against House Martell, even after Nymeria had thrown down their king. Along with Houses Yronwood, Fowler, and Manwoody, House Blackmont had a long history of fighting with the Marcher Lords.

Manwoody The seat of House Manwoody of Kingsgave could be a hint that they will fight against a soon to be King Aegon. Lord Dagos Manwoody, his brother Ser Myles, his sons Mors and Dickon all accompanied Oberyn to King’s Landing. Along with the Fowler twins and the Ullers, Dagos declined Ricasso’s toast on behalf of Doran in The Watcher, Dance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/8/2016 at 1:22 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Add House Cuy to the list of Aegon’s “friends in the Reach.” House Cuy first backed Renly in the War of the Five Kings...

 

 

Nice catch. I agree about house Cuy.

I also agree about house Yronwood. In fact, notice that Arch Yronwood ... Barristan thinks he is "true steel", and he seems the reasonable dornish, in contrast with Gerris Drinkwater, who barristan thinks as false. He is pretty biased against Dany. He blames her for Quentyns death.

Barristan promised them to send them back to dorne to return Quentyns body. But Arch actually hates sailing. I think Barristan will make him join Dany`s queensguard and he will stay with Danys team.

Gerris will be the one that will explain Quentyns death, and push House Martell to war against dany in the dance of dragons 2 in TWOW.

 

House Yronwood is proud and wants to rule dorne. They always joined the black dragons to take over as paramounts of dorne. the second dance of dragons will reverse the roles, with house  Martell fighting for the black dragons and House Yronwood for the red (in exchange of being named princes or lords of Dorne)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Nice catch. I agree about house Cuy.

I also agree about house Yronwood. In fact, notice that Arch Yronwood ... Barristan thinks he is "true steel", and he seems the reasonable dornish, in contrast with Gerris Drinkwater, who barristan thinks as false. He is pretty biased against Dany. He blames her for Quentyns death.

Barristan promised them to send them back to dorne to return Quentyns body. But Arch actually hates sailing. I think Barristan will make him join Dany`s queensguard and he will stay with Danys team.

Gerris will be the one that will explain Quentyns death, and push House Martell to war against dany in the dance of dragons 2 in TWOW.

House Yronwood is proud and wants to rule dorne. They always joined the black dragons to take over as paramounts of dorne. the second dance of dragons will reverse the roles, with house  Martell fighting for the black dragons and House Yronwood for the red (in exchange of being named princes or lords of Dorne)

What about Dayne versus Oakheart? Since Gerold Dayne was blamed for the death of Arys Oakheart, and since Daynes have been killing Oakhearts for thousands of years, it seems quite possible that these two houses could stand against each other in the Second Dance of the Dragons. House Dayne and House Hightower also have a history of fighting against each other. There's also the history with House Martell. Nymeria took the Sword of the Morning as her third successive consort. However, Martell's daughter, not Dayne's son, succeeded Nymeria as ruler of Dorne. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And I think there is very good reason to expect Yronwood will fight against Martell. Tyrion told us in Tyrion V, Storm 38 that there salty Dornishmen lived along the coasts, sandy Dornishmen lived in the deserts and long river valleys, and stony Dornishmen made their fastnesses in the passes and heights of the Red Mountains. The salty Dornishmen had the most Rhoynish blood, and the stony Dornishmen the least. After meeting Oberyn, and later Arianne, we realized that Houses Yronwood, Dayne, Fowler, Blackmont, and Mandwoody were stony Dornishmen, and House Martell were salty Dornishmen. And we learned that there was blood between House Yronwood and Oberyn Martell. Doran sent Oberyn, the saltiest Dornishman of all, to claim Doran’s seat on the council and accept the Lannister justice Tyrion promised. When Tywin tried to appease Oberyn by naming the deceased Amory Lorch for the murders of Elia and her children, Oberyn likely poisoned Tywin secretly, and then offered to stand for Tyrion against Gregor for Cersei in Tyrion’s trial by battle for the murder of Joffrey. In the Appendix to Storm, we learned that the Lord of Yronwood was named Anders. In The Captain of the Guards, Feast 2, we learned that Doran had a host in the Prince's Pass, and Lord Anders had another in the Boneway. In payment for the Yronwood blood Oberyn had spilled, Doran sent his son Quentyn to foster at Yronwood, where he served as page and squire and took his knighthood. And we learned that House Yronwood rode with Bittersteel during three of the Blackfyre Rebellions, presumably, against House Martell. Arianne expected to have to fight House Yronwood eventually over the question of Dornish succession, and she told us that Yronwood was the most powerful Martell bannerman. Doran told us that Anders was more of a father to Quentyn than Doran was. On Doran’s order, Anders’s heir Cletus, Yronwood’s maester, and three of Lord Yronwood's best young knights were dispatched with Quentyn on a long and perilous voyage, with an uncertain welcome at its end. All but Archibald Yronwood and Gerris Drinkwater would perish. Before he died, Quentyn noted that Anders had sent his own son to keep Quentyn safe. Although Gerris blamed Quentyn’s failure on Daenerys, Archibald, who impressed Barristan as the true steel, did not appear to blame her, instead looking to aid Barristan so they might return to Dorne. In Winds, Arriane suggests that there is a rivalry between the Sand Snakes and House Yronwood, and that she has always been closer to the Sand Snakes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Ser Joe of Generic Hall said:

Isn't House Hewett extinct at this point?

Should we assume that all of Lord Hewett's relations were killed by Euron and the Ironmen? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/30/2016 at 9:00 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Should we assume that all of Lord Hewett's relations were killed by Euron and the Ironmen? 

Well we see Lord Hewett is alive when last we see him. Margaery reports that he died but she might be wrong or lying

Spoiler

I don't have the spoiler chapter but I think Falia Flowers implies that he is alive. Or maybe I remember someone saying that. Not sure I only read it once.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/20/2015 at 11:37 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I could agree with the assumptions in your first paragraph. But I think Orton and the Myrish swamp are all in. She being from one of the three daughters, and him being the son of a lord who suffered greatly at the hands of a Targaryen. 

And Taena is not just from one of the three daughters...

Quote

 

It was Lady Merryweather who truly pleased her. "Your Grace," that one said, in her sultry Myrish tones, "I have sent word to my friends across the narrow sea, asking them to seize the Imp at once should he show his ugly face in the Free Cities."

"Do you have many friends across the water?"

"In Myr, many. In Lys as well, and Tyrosh. Men of power."

Cersei could well believe it. The Myrish woman was too beautiful by half; long-legged and full-breasted, with smooth olive skin, ripe lips, huge dark eyes, and thick black hair that always looked as if she'd just come from bed. She even smells of sin, like some exotic lotus. "Lord Merryweather and I wish only to serve Your Grace and the little king," the woman purred, with a look that was as pregnant as Lady Graceford.

This one is ambitious, and her lord is proud but poor. "We must speak again, my lady. Taena, is it? You are most kind. I know that we shall be great friends."

 

Cersei II, Feast 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lord Fowler once sacked and burned Nightsong - the seat of House Caron, one of Stormlands marcher lords.

And who is lord of Nightsong now? That is right, Phillipe Foote, a westerman who was awarded the castle by Lannisters for slaying Lord Caron during Blackwater battle.

One Dornish host is at Prince's Pass, which is House Fowler controlled road. Once Arianne sends "dragon" back to her father, Lord Franklyn Fowler will sack Nightsong and regroup with Aegon, Jon Connington, Arianne and Golden Company and possibly stormlords who will join Aegon's cause.

Highgarden will be sacked by Dornishmen which is foreshadowed in TWOIAF, and Willas Tyrell will die. With Mace dying in the battle against Connington and Golden Company, Loras as Kingsguard and injured and whereabouts unknown, Garlan dying at Harras Harlaw's hands and Nightfall, Margaery getting killed in the events in the capital, Lazy Leo possibly murdered during Euron's attack on Oldtown, there will be no clear cut member of House Tyrell left to become new Lord or Lady of Highgarden.

There is a reason why George me tioned so much how House Florent has the best claim to Highgarden and generally pissed off at Tyrells, especially after granting Brightwater Keep to Garlan. Well, I believe karma is a bitch, and Tyrell's own castle and seat of power - Highgarden - will be awarded to Melessa Florent's son - Dickon Tarly. 

It will be pretty same situation as with Roose and Ramsay Bolton, where the father gets promoted as Warden of the North, but region's capital gets awarded to his son. In this case, Randyll, Lord of Horn Hill, gets appointed as Lord Paramount of the Reach and Warden of the South, but his son Dickon Tarly becomes Lord of Highgarden thanks to his mother side's claim to the castle.

I think storywise I see what George tries to do - he wants House Tarly to become new rulers of the Reach while he grows Sam in the backgrounds both as a great scientist mind and brave archer. When Dany takes over south of Westeros, Randyll and Dickon will be involved in the dance of dragons and die for supporting Aegon (I think Dany will burn Highgarden in dragon flame), which means next in line to become Lord Paramount of Reach and Warden of South is none other than Samwell Tarly.

You might say - he is a brother of Night's Watch AND maester of the Citadel. I will ask you: are you sure these two institutions will be standing by the time Sam is eligible to become Reach's new protector? I do not expect Sam will hold a grudge against Dany for killing his father and brother who knowingly knew what was coming for them if they opposed Dany and her dragons.

And besides, I think Sam will become a little legend of his own once he puts an arrow through Euron's Crow Eye in Oldtown. "Sam the Slayer" indeed. And possibly finding something magnificient for people's benefit like secret of Valyrian steel forging or cure for greyscale. Dany will desperately need THAT kind of Lord Paramount of Reach - a brave archer and a genius scientist.

So yeah, in a very obscure way, I think that the endgame in the Reach will result in Sam becoming Daenerys' Lord Paramount of the Reach and main science guy (since there will be no Citadel, he might not be called maester) who will deserve it by his deeds and actions, not his family name or blood. His family name Tarly is just an added bonus to his resume.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3.5.2016. at 1:49 AM, Lord Varys said:

Or not. Perhaps Aegon doesn't give a rat's ass about the Tarly claim to Brightwater and instead decides not to antagonize Leyton Hightower (who is married to Alester Florent's other daughter) and right now harbors Alekyne Florent, Lord Alester Florent's rightful son and heir.

The idea that Tarly would Mace just betray because Aegon *might* reward him doesn't make any sense. And there is no evidence whatsoever that Randyll Tarly has any direct connection or friendly relationship with anyone in camp Aegon.

Or perhaps he does, Aegon will surely try to convince lords that can be ocnvinced and Hightower is lost cause because of marriage bond with Tyrells. And entire 7K knows Mace brags with victory of Randyll which certainly doesnt make him happy, you may sam how would Jon and Aegon know? Via Varys ofc, it would be incompetent if he didnt study which houses may support Aegon and pass that info to other side of sea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Or perhaps he does, Aegon will surely try to convince lords that can be ocnvinced and Hightower is lost cause because of marriage bond with Tyrells. And entire 7K knows Mace brags with victory of Randyll which certainly doesnt make him happy, you may sam how would Jon and Aegon know? Via Varys ofc, it would be incompetent if he didnt study which houses may support Aegon and pass that info to other side of sea.

I don't know... The George has introduced sideline houses in one book and raised them up in successive books before. I think we got more information on House Hightower for a reason. And there's a certain freckley maiden of that house who might make an interesting match for Aegon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't know... The George has introduced sideline houses in one book and raised them up in successive books before. I think we got more information on House Hightower for a reason. And there's a certain freckley maiden of that house who might make an interesting match for Aegon. 

Maybe, but there are a lot of women that are more likely to be Aegons wives if he ever decides not to wait for Daenerys, Sansa, Arianne, even Marge seem more likely than Hightower, but not impossible though.

I got a feeling that Hightowers would eventually support Daenerys once she arrives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Maybe, but there are a lot of women that are more likely to be Aegons wives if he ever decides not to wait for Daenerys, Sansa, Arianne, even Marge seem more likely than Hightower, but not impossible though.

I got a feeling that Hightowers would eventually support Daenerys once she arrives.

Nah, I feel like Dany will uncover the truth behind Hightowers and the Citadel conspiracy, and we shall see a nice candle tower once she sets aflame Hightower's base of black oily stone. Dany's invasion of Westeros needs to bear more than simple "two claimants to the throne fight to the death and try to win over rich people to their sides". Her entire conqueror narrative has "liberator" and "breaker of chains" tidbits among her redeeming qualities, and what is feudal system if not another slavery, just in different package and gift wrap? I do not expect big noble houses to support her claim once she comes over to Westeros. In fact, Aegon's conquest is all about trying to KEEP feudal system while putting a king most fit to thrive in this system on a throne. Varys and Illyrio have been preparing the boy for this his whole life. Dany's conquest is much more fundamental in spirit. That is why I believe why there is a trend of new powers hibernating in each respective region waiting to be unleashed either by Jon or Dany.

We have seeds of democratic transformation everywhere: Free Folk and their "no kneeling" philisophy which Jon will inject into the North once he gets ELECTED as King in the North (I also believe Davos will bring thousands of Braavosi ships and refugees to White Harbor once their city drowns during Long Night, and the same with Theon and ironborn's migration to Cape Kraken who are pretty democratic in their leader choosing as well, but that is an essay for another topic); a Brotherhood without Banners in Riverlands which actually starts to recruit Riverlands NOBILITY to their ranks if some essays about BwB web can be believed and how Pipers and Vances and later Blackfish might be involved; another branch of Brotherhood without Banners led by Edric Dayne which I believe will start in Kingswood area in Stormlands; mountain clans of the Vale and Tyrion's involvement and promise to them; thousands of Dothrakis that will "knock down stone houses" all across Southern Westeros (Reach, Stormlands, Dorne and Westerlands).

One of the predictions I cannot wait to happen is how Tyrion will sack and pillage Lannisport with Dothrakis like Tywin did with King's Landing, and then infiltrate Casterly Rock through sewer systems with Unsullied; this act will forever kill off any hope of Tyrion becoming Warden of the West and Lord of Casterly Rock, but he will be the reason these two titles will mean nothing after he is done destroying his father's seat of power - I think that will be much sweeter for Tyrion. Karma is a bitch, Tywin, who better than your own son to do destroy your legacy?

Dany needs to destroy and "Fire and Blood" throughout the whole noble system if she wants to truly "free the slaves" of this system. Of course, it will make people to turn to her for a hope and better alternative, but it will all be resolved neither by her nor Jon by the end of the series, but more capable people like Tyrion, Sam, Sansa, Davos, etc. Dany and Jon are "necessary destructive forces" of this story - "ice" and "fire".

Do you see a trend here? These are slow time-ticking bombs that are waiting to be unleashed when time is right to wipe out "old system" and establish something new and better. Does not mean it will go without blood (there will be plenty), but that is a necessary price for better change.

So yeah, Hightowers are part of that "old system", and Dany MIGHT offer, for example, House Yronwood a Lord Paramount of Dorne position, but by the time she is done conquering and destroying Westeros and then Long Night and Battle for the Dawn, I doubt that noble class and feudal system will survive. There will be truly a new era and "a dream of spring".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Maybe, but there are a lot of women that are more likely to be Aegons wives if he ever decides not to wait for Daenerys, Sansa, Arianne, even Marge seem more likely than Hightower, but not impossible though.

I got a feeling that Hightowers would eventually support Daenerys once she arrives.

You know what... I was thinking of a freckley little Redwyne, not a Hightower...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×