Something about Dyanna Dayne

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Anath said:

Aerys deliberately refraining from fathering an heir is an interesting idea but I am not sure it can hold. If Rhaegel was sane, yes, it would be a good option, perhaps. But he was not. And his children were, well, children as Ser Kyle the Cat says. From the Great Council after Maekar's death we know that fears of the father's madness repeating in the child are taken seriously. Aerys and Bloodraven had no way to know that Aelor would grow up sane.

I quite agree with your queen hypothesis. In addition, one of Maekar's daughter could play the first lady at his court. There was no need for him to remarry and in fact, it would be unwise to take a fertile wife. If he remarried, a woman past her childbearing years could be a better choice.

While Maekar might not be big on Aegon's reforms, at the time Aegon had not made them, although he was perhaps showing signs of his intentions that his family would see. But Aegon wasn't Maekar's only option other than Aerion. Aemon could be released from his oaths. Even Daella, if she were alive at the time, could have been preferred over Aegon if Aerion got bypassed and Aemon was a maester. Daella was older than Aegon. (I know your theory about this bringing her close in age to Dunk but at the moment, it's just a theory.) Maekar was a Dornish woman's son and another one's husband. He might have been inclined to make the realm accept his daughter instead of brothers who harboured dangerous ideas, each in his own way. If Aegon didn't change from the time of the three novellas, he wouldn't engage in a Dance of Dragons out of yearning for the throne since he didn't cover it anyway. With Aerion out of the way, things might have gotten smooth - or at least Maekar and Bloodraven might have thought they could force it upon everyone's throat because neither expected Maekar to die in an uprising. If so, Daella might have chosen not to press any claims either because she didnt have any ground to stand by since at the time of her father's death the females behid males still stood and she coudn't cite her father's intention as her reasoning (I imagine the scene, a young woman trying to convince the Great Council that "yes, my lord father truly wanted me to succeed him. Proof? I have none. But you must believe me anyway, he did!) or because she never truly wanted the ugly chair. Any of those options - Aemon, Daella, or Aegon being preferred over him - or even the thought that they might be options - might have prompted Aerion into making the final step. Anyway, that's just a hunch of mine.

Ser Kyle's statement about Rhaegel's children has be seen in context. Aelor and Aelora were old enough to be married to each other in 217 AC when Aelor died. I therefore assume the twins were about the same age as Egg, perhaps even a year older or so.

Rhaegel is described as nice and good guy, aside from his madness. Bloodraven and/or another capable Hand could easily have kept everything in order had he ascended the throne, and Aelor and Aelora could have already have children by the time of Aerys' death, further stabilizing the dynasty (Aerys seems to have died of some illness considering the wasn't that old in 221 AC). In fact, we know from Maynard Plumm that this is pretty much Bloodraven's plan in 211 AC, and if Egg is not completely mistaken about his father then Maekar would also never challenge the claim of either Rhaegel or Aelor (although his sons eventually might).

The Great Council had doubts about Maegor's nature, but the royal family apparently didn't care about Rhaegel or Aelor's nature, and there is really no reason to assume the latter was mad.

It is a pity that we do not know when exactly Prince Daeron died. He was Prince of Dragonstone, that we know for a certainty, but we don't even know whether Aerion was ever formally installed as such. Maekar not naming an heir after Daeron's death - whenever that was - might have added more fuel to the fire, making things even more unclear.

I think this threat of another Dance has to go back to Princess Daenora who may have had a very strong ambitions for her son and/or any other powerful cronies of Aerion's.

The fact that neither Daella nor Rhae are mentioned as claimants at the Great Council could be a hint that both were already dead at this point...

My personal image of Maekar's court is that multiple of his sons (Aerion, Egg, and perhaps even Daeron) were serving on the Small Council in various capacities, having all completely different agendas. Bloodraven and Maekar himself would be the ones moderating this mess. We know that Maekar called all his sons to court so there is a good chance that something like that happened.

We also know that Egg was a known champion of the smallfolk and 'half a peasant' by the time of the Great Council, suggesting that his political opinion and preferences was very much known. In fact, I expect that some lords opposing his ascension to the throne at this point were members of his father's own Small Council who knew firsthand what this prince was about.

[purple-eyes]

Talking about this, I am curious about Kiera of Tyrosh.

She married twice and both to Targ princes, this is already very unusual. And both time she got married to crown princes or first born son of crown prince. She had two stillborns with Valarr, usually you may feel it is not safe to marry her to Daeron. But she was married to him anyway.

Considering Daemon Blackfyre's wife is Rohanne of Tyrosh, this makes it more interesting.

Is this an effort of Daeron II to make alliance with Tyrosh Archon to avoid them supporting Blackfyre?

 

 

 

[Nozlym]

looks like u answered ur own question

[purple-eyes]

11 minutes ago, Nozlym said:

looks like u answered ur own question

But i do feel a little bit weird that why she had to marry crown prince if only for this purpose.

We know Targ usually would want to marry somebody with Targ blood. especially for crown prince since they will need to pass their blood to future kings.

I have a bolder guess too. Maybe she had Blackfyre blood from one daughter of Daemon.

House Blackfyre may be not that unified, maybe one branch wanted to work with Daeron II.

This can unite two houses by blood. So that it is better for peace.

 

[Nozlym]

to be honest this just seems like a bud that george accidently dropped in his daily gardening. it hasnt got enough sun yet to start to bloom.

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Good observation, purple eyes. I'm going to go with "love match."

I want to believe. :-)

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

But i do feel a little bit weird that why she had to marry crown prince if only for this purpose.

We know Targ usually would want to marry somebody with Targ blood. especially for crown prince since they will need to pass their blood to future kings.

I have a bolder guess too. Maybe she had Blackfyre blood from one daughter of Daemon.

House Blackfyre may be not that unified, maybe one branch wanted to work with Daeron II.

This can unite two houses by blood. So that it is better for peace.

Age-wise Kiera cannot have been descended from a Blackfyre - unless we assume she herself was a daughter of Daemon Blackfyre. And if that was the case one would assume that we would know about that.

However, she could be a sister or a niece of Rohanne of Tyrosh and thus be a relations to the Blackfyres through the maternal line.

But then, we know that the Archon of Tyrosh is elected. Rohanne was the daughter of an archon, Kiera could be the daughter/sister/whatever of another archon from a different family, or only be a member of rival noble family.

What we can say is that the Kiera-Valarr match was most likely a political match with the purpose to counter Blackfyre influence in Tyrosh and/or to prevent the Tyroshi from actively supporting the Blackfyres during an invasion (the latter seems to have worked since there are no reports that Daemon II or Haegon got any military or naval support from their Tyroshi kin).

How it came to be that Kiera later married Daeron is completely unclear. No such marriage has been mentioned yet, and one wonders if that match was made before or after the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Daeron's daughter Vaella is born in 222 AC, suggesting a rather late marriage. Perhaps Kiera originally returned to Tyrosh, and eventually returned to Westeros in the wake of Haegon's defeat?

[purple-eyes]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Age-wise Kiera cannot have been descended from a Blackfyre - unless we assume she herself was a daughter of Daemon Blackfyre. And if that was the case one would assume that we would know about that.

However, she could be a sister or a niece of Rohanne of Tyrosh and thus be a relations to the Blackfyres through the maternal line.

But then, we know that the Archon of Tyrosh is elected. Rohanne was the daughter of an archon, Kiera could be the daughter/sister/whatever of another archon from a different family, or only be a member of rival noble family.

What we can say is that the Kiera-Valarr match was most likely a political match with the purpose to counter Blackfyre influence in Tyrosh and/or to prevent the Tyroshi from actively supporting the Blackfyres during an invasion (the latter seems to have worked since there are no reports that Daemon II or Haegon got any military or naval support from their Tyroshi kin).

How it came to be that Kiera later married Daeron is completely unclear. No such marriage has been mentioned yet, and one wonders if that match was made before or after the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Daeron's daughter Vaella is born in 222 AC, suggesting a rather late marriage. Perhaps Kiera originally returned to Tyrosh, and eventually returned to Westeros in the wake of Haegon's defeat?

That is right, Daemon is same age as baelor. So if Keira married son of baelor, she is probably in similar age of Daemon's daughter. 

I feel hard to believe Kiera would go back to Tyrosh and then come back again to marry Daeron. 

I guess she probably stayed in KL as a high hostage to make sure her father would not help Blackfyre.

And since Archon did not help Blackfyre as far as know (or even try to stop them), maybe this is part of deal that she will marry again to a Targ crown prince?

It would be nice to see a Tyrosh queen though. We have not got any queen from free cities yet. Larra just left too early. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Dragon has three heads]

17 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

GRRM's genetics work differently from ours. 

Nowhere said minisa Whent is a backwood or lothstan. 

When Cersei's children were investigated, it was "seed is strong". 

And if jon will do something about dragon, this should be from male line. 

Aegon ii and his siblings and children also hatched dragons, this is from viserys, not their hightower mother. 

And no, dany can not be child of lyanna. 

 

 

*In your opinion

fixed it for you...

I disagree on Danny and with catalyn, if it's not mentioned where her mother is from that's a red flag to me straight away.  There would be a lot of blackwood  in her blood mix.

Same with eddards and Brandon's mother.  Anyway it can't be proven IIRC so it's not worth arguing about.

Well it seems(so far anyway) that his genetics are basically Mendelian.  There's references to it through septon Barth. And if you trace it back, aegon II's Dragon hatched(most likely) because of his proximity to Rhaenyra on Dragonstone as its says he was given too or claimed by Aegon II, not hatched.  Which is important.

"Though Sunfyre's exact year of birth has never been stated, he was described as being "young" in 120 AC, suggesting that his egg hatched during the reign of King Viserys I Targaryen.^[2]120 AC is also the first year where Prince Aegon Targaryen is mentioned as Sunfyre's rider, though it is unknown when exactly Sunfyre was claimed by Aegon."

 

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Lord Varys, hats off to you... love how much knowledge you have of the Targs in the late 2nd & early 3rd century AC!

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I personally think that remarriages became a taboo among the Targaryens after Alicent Hightower. The only other Targaryen monarch taking a second wife after his previous wife had died was the boy king Aegon III, and he did not have any children by Jaehaera Targaryen when she died.

This is fascinating! It's something that I never considered and (apologies to the OP for this digression) has some implications for R+L=J, I think. If the Rhaegar & Lyanna relationship was consensual, and it had been post-Dance policy that Targs could not remarry, then even if Elia has died trying to give birth to a third head of the dragon, remarriage to Lyanna would be politically unpopular and against the grain.

Of course, by the late 3rd century AC, the Targs have the opposite problem. It's not that there are too many of them. It's that there simply aren't enough...

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My personal guess is that Maekar's marriage grew out of Dyanna's presence at court. Mariah Martell brought many people with her to court, and it is is not difficult to imagine that one of her ladies-in-waiting was either Dyanna Dayne herself, or her mother. From there it is not all that difficult to imagine how that marriage was arranged. And if Dyanna was about Maekar's age and they sort of grew up together this could have been a real love match, possibly the only one Daeron II allowed his sons.

Speculation about Maekar's relationship to his sons during his reign is very difficult. We just know too little about all that, especially not about Aerion's development. My gut feeling is that Maekar may not have been too happy with Egg's reform ideas, leaning a little bit more in Aerion's direction before the latter's death. If Egg had been his father's favorite in the end he would most likely have been Prince of Dragonstone in 233 AC, and then there would have been little to no need for a Great Council.

Again, agree with this. The glimpse of the Targaryen court that we receive in the Dunk and Egg tales is tantalizing, because post-Summerhall, there was nothing quite like it again. It also makes me wonder the ways in which the tragedy of Summerhall affected not only the court, but also the practice of fostering in the RR & WOt5K generations... other than Cersei, we don't hear about any of the other RR-era girls being in Rhaella's court. Perhaps it was because of Aerys' creeping madness, but with all the talk in TWOIAF of "King's Men" and "Prince's Men," clearly there was something there before he went full-on pyro.

Back to the OP. Yes, there is something special about Dyanna Dayne. GRRM could have chosen any Targaryen to feature in his prequel stories, but for some reason, it's critical that Egg's mother is a Dayne. Although he didn't get to know her well, he still is of the blood of Starfall... and so are all his descendants.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

That is right, Daemon is same age as baelor. So if Keira married son of baelor, she is probably in similar age of Daemon's daughter. 

I feel hard to believe Kiera would go back to Tyrosh and then come back again to marry Daeron. 

I guess she probably stayed in KL as a high hostage to make sure her father would not help Blackfyre.

And since Archon did not help Blackfyre as far as know (or even try to stop them), maybe this is part of deal that she will marry again to a Targ crown prince?

It would be nice to see a Tyrosh queen though. We have not got any queen from free cities yet. Larra just left too early. 

Regardless who Kiera was, I find the idea that she ever was a hostage very unlikely. Nobody would ever marry a hostage to a Targaryen prince, especially not to a future king.

The odd fact that Daeron only had his daughter Vaella in 222 AC remains, but that could have other reasons (for instance, they may not have liked each other at all, resulting in marriage like Stannis and Selyse have it). What we can rule out is that Kiera was married to Daeron by the time of TMK. We never hear anything about a royal marriage, and the news about Prince Daeron marrying Prince Valarr's widow should spread through the Realm, causing Egg to comment on that. Not to mention that Egg most likely would have liked to attend in his brother's wedding.

2 hours ago, Liz Stark-Targaryen said:

Lord Varys, hats off to you... love how much knowledge you have of the Targs in the late 2nd & early 3rd century AC!

This is fascinating! It's something that I never considered and (apologies to the OP for this digression) has some implications for R+L=J, I think. If the Rhaegar & Lyanna relationship was consensual, and it had been post-Dance policy that Targs could not remarry, then even if Elia has died trying to give birth to a third head of the dragon, remarriage to Lyanna would be politically unpopular and against the grain.

Of course, by the late 3rd century AC, the Targs have the opposite problem. It's not that there are too many of them. It's that there simply aren't enough...

Again, agree with this. The glimpse of the Targaryen court that we receive in the Dunk and Egg tales is tantalizing, because post-Summerhall, there was nothing quite like it again. It also makes me wonder the ways in which the tragedy of Summerhall affected not only the court, but also the practice of fostering in the RR & WOt5K generations... other than Cersei, we don't hear about any of the other RR-era girls being in Rhaella's court. Perhaps it was because of Aerys' creeping madness, but with all the talk in TWOIAF of "King's Men" and "Prince's Men," clearly there was something there before he went full-on pyro.

Back to the OP. Yes, there is something special about Dyanna Dayne. GRRM could have chosen any Targaryen to feature in his prequel stories, but for some reason, it's critical that Egg's mother is a Dayne. Although he didn't get to know her well, he still is of the blood of Starfall... and so are all his descendants.

I'm of the opinion that polygamy would have been even a bigger taboo than a mere remarriage. I mean, we know that the last polygamous Targaryen was Maegor the Cruel, and we know in addition that only Targaryen kings dared to take more than one wife (and in addition we also know that only First Men kings did that, in ancient times before the Andals came - a Gardener and a Durrandon king).

The crucial fact there is that no dragonriding Targaryen prince and no dragonriding Targaryen king after Maegor ever took a second wife. Viserys I could easily have taking a second wife besides Aemma throughout the ten years he was married to her. Her fertility was always an issue, not just after Viserys had become king.

But the much bigger example is Aegon the Unworthy, really. The man had only one male heir of his own body, the last Targaryen prince. The legitimate male branch of House Targaryen was close to extinction in the days of Aegon the Unworthy (until Mariah Martell began to produce sons).

His sister-wife Naerys usually nearly during her many pregnancies, and suffered multiple stillbirths. All the virile Aegon got from his queen was one son and one daughter. Now, it is quite clear that Aegon had the opportunity to dissolve his marriage to Naerys - she asked him to allow her to join the Faith, after all - but he refused to do so. He wanted to keep her as his wife. But if polygamy had still been a theoretical possibility at this time Naerys would have been forced to suffer her husband taking additional wives, most likely all the mistresses he fell in love with after he became king (i.e. Barbra Bracken, Melissa Blackwood, Bethany Bracken, Jeyne Lothston, and Serenei of Lys).

Aegon would have been motivated to do this both by his lack of heirs as well as by the fact that he could have greatly hurt and humiliated his sister-wife, brother, and son as well as fathered more legitimate heirs of his own body. Not to mention that he himself claimed to have loved all his mistresses.

In that connection, the idea that Rhaegar could get away with polygamous or even a second marriage without the king's explicit permission (which would have been the High Septon's permission, too) is very unlikely. That doesn't mean that Rhaegar didn't do it, of course, but it suggests that Rhaegar doing it may have well caused him and Lyanna going into hiding because his father called for his head and/or disowned him.

I'm not sure though we can say the Targaryens had too few heirs in the 280s. Rhaella had recently given birth to Viserys, and Rhaegar himself had Rhaenys and Aegon. That was actually exactly the right amount of heirs. Rhaegar was Aerys' heir, Viserys a spare just in case, and Rhaegar himself had a son and/or a daughter to succeed him. Another son for Rhaegar would have been fine, too, but with Viserys there the dynasty could survive it if Aegon died in the cradle or as a child.

In general we know too little about the lives of the Targaryen queens, by the way. Most notably we have no clue when exactly many of them died.

We have dates on Rhaenys and Visenya, of course, and we know that Alyssa Velaryon lived well into the reign of Jaehaerys I. But we don't know when she died. We know Alysanne's, Aemma's, Alicent's, Daemon's, Helaena's, and Jaehaera's year of death, but that's really it. We have no idea how long Daenaera Velaryon lived, when exactly Naerys died, or how long Mariah Martell, Aelinor Penrose, or Betha Blackwood lived.

We can guess a little bit of that. There is no hint that Mariah is still alive during the reign of Aerys I, and she is also not mentioned as a casualty during the Great Spring Sickness. This would suggest that she predeceased Daeron II and was already dead during THK. Betha Blackwood seems to have survived all her pregnancies, arranging the betrothals of her children. In light of that my best guess is that she died along Aegon V at Summerhall.

Another thing that may be crucial in regards to Maekar's succession:

We have to keep in mind the Arryn connection there. He have no idea what kind of a woman Alys Arryn was, but if we assume that she and her Arryn relations wanted her to be queen and/or see her offspring on the Iron Throne, then little Prince Maegor (who is the son of Alys' daughter Daenora= certainly could have very prominent supporters among the Arryns and the Lords of the Vale. Especially if both Daenora and Alys were still alive during the Great Council.

This makes the Great Council a very interesting affair for the Arryns. Young Jon Arryn could have been there, and his father Lord Jasper Arryn could have been a nephew of Alys Arryn, making the Arryns potentially rather close to the branch of Prince Rhaegel. We know that Jon Arryn was born around 220 AC, and with Rhaegel/Alys already having their twins in 211 AC, it is unlikely that Alys could be sister of Lord Jasper - especially not if their betrothed/married to each other at an early age.

[Lord Varys]

A little speculation on the cause of Dyanna's death:

Dunk mentions the fact that Maekar has pockmarks in THK, suggesting that he was suffering from that disease at one point in his life. Smallpox is a very serious disease, and if George's pox variations are as deadly as the real world versions then one can assume that Maekar was seriously ill.

It is easy to imagine that Dyanna caught the same disease and did not survive. The fact that none of the children caught the disease could easily be explained with the parents being at some other place - say, Makar/Dyanne were in Summerhall or in Dorne visiting Dyanna's family at Starfall or Maekar's relations at Sunspear while the children were all with their royal grandfather in KL.

We know from Egg that he served as a page in KL for some time before THK, and we one assumes that Aerion was drawn very much to court as well. Maekar himself may also not have spent most of his time at Summerhall. He appears like the time of man who wanted to show his face at court as often as possible - that really only changed when Aerys I decided to make Bloodraven his Hand.

Not all the Targaryen women have to die in childbirth... Hell, we could even connect that scenario with the death of Mariah Martell if we assume that Dyanna, Maekar, and his mother were visiting Dorne. Prior to Dyanna's death Maekar must have been the son of Daeron II who was closest to Dorne and the Dornish relations.

One really wonders how this is going to be developed in later Dunk & Egg stories.

[Shuvuuia]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

How it came to be that Kiera later married Daeron is completely unclear. No such marriage has been mentioned yet, and one wonders if that match was made before or after the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Daeron's daughter Vaella is born in 222 AC, suggesting a rather late marriage. Perhaps Kiera originally returned to Tyrosh, and eventually returned to Westeros in the wake of Haegon's defeat?

Wouldn't it be strange that she didn't re-marry while in Tyrosh then, waiting for many years?

Is it possible that they had to wait some time after Valarr's death before marrying Kiera and Daeron - If it was a year or two for official "mourning" period, it would fit with the marriage not happening during the latest two D&E novels. Maybe it would be mentioned in the next one. (was she mentioned by name and nationality in-story? I feel like Targ spouses were not yet decided)

9 hours ago, Liz Stark-Targaryen said:

 

Back to the OP. Yes, there is something special about Dyanna Dayne. GRRM could have chosen any Targaryen to feature in his prequel stories, but for some reason, it's critical that Egg's mother is a Dayne. Although he didn't get to know her well, he still is of the blood of Starfall... and so are all his descendants.

But was she intented to be Egg's mother from the start or is it a much later development? I mean, she's never been mentioned by maester Aemon or Edric or any dornish character. 

[Trogdor Targaryen]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 0:14 AM, purple-eyes said:

I thought tywin indeed visited brothels and he built that pass to chataya.......

wedding and bedding are two different things.

[Shuvuuia]

8 hours ago, Trogdor Targaryen said:

wedding and bedding are two different things.

purple-eyes was responding to my post where because of my English fail it looked like I was saying that Tywin didn't visit prostitutes at all. I deleted that part because it was confusing. Apparently now it is more confusing, lol.

[Lord Varys]

22 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

Wouldn't it be strange that she didn't re-marry while in Tyrosh then, waiting for many years?

Is it possible that they had to wait some time after Valarr's death before marrying Kiera and Daeron - If it was a year or two for official "mourning" period, it would fit with the marriage not happening during the latest two D&E novels. Maybe it would be mentioned in the next one. (was she mentioned by name and nationality in-story? I feel like Targ spouses were not yet decided)

But was she intented to be Egg's mother from the start or is it a much later development? I mean, she's never been mentioned by maester Aemon or Edric or any dornish character. 

No idea, really. But it is also unclear why the hell she should have married Prince Daeron at all. Aerys' heir presumptive was Prince Rhaegel, and Rhaegel's heir was Prince Aelor, who eventually married his twin-sister Aelora. If Kiera was deemed politically important one would assume she would have been married to then unmarried Prince Aelor after the mourning period for Valarr was over.

On the other hand, a marriage to Daeron who would at least one day inherit Summerhall was certainly something, and could have appeased the Archon of Tyrosh after it turned out that Kiera wouldn't one day become Queen of Westeros.

From what I know - I've seen a preliminary version to the Targaryen family tree that was published in TWoIaF - Maekar's original wife was not supposed to be a Dayne. In fact, she was designated 'Rhaena Targaryen ?', and some unknown Targaryen relation (Rhaegel's wife was designated 'Targaryen WIFE ??').

Since we know that George has changed Queen Aelinor Targaryen into Aelinor Penrose, a cousin of Aerys I Targaryen, it is apparent that George changed the Targaryen family quite a bit in preparation for TWoIaF. He clearly reduced Daeron II's children to only four sons while it seems he may have originally had quite a few daughters as well as sons.

If we assume that at three of Daeron's sons - Aerys, Rhaegel, and Maekar - were originally supposed to be married to their sisters, my guess is that Jena Dondarrion, Alys Arryn, and Dyanna Dayne may all turn out to be Targaryen cousins to various degrees, being descended either from Rhaena or Baela Targaryen. That way the whole concept of cousin marriage which was supposed to dictate Targaryen marriage policy when there were no sisters available could be shown in greater detail, too.

[purple-eyes]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No idea, really. But it is also unclear why the hell she should have married Prince Daeron at all. Aerys' heir presumptive was Prince Rhaegel, and Rhaegel's heir was Prince Aelor, who eventually married his twin-sister Aelora. If Kiera was deemed politically important one would assume she would have been married to then unmarried Prince Aelor after the mourning period for Valarr was over.

On the other hand, a marriage to Daeron who would at least one day inherit Summerhall was certainly something, and could have appeased the Archon of Tyrosh after it turned out that Kiera wouldn't one day become Queen of Westeros.

From what I know - I've seen a preliminary version to the Targaryen family tree that was published in TWoIaF - Maekar's original wife was not supposed to be a Dayne. In fact, she was designated 'Rhaena Targaryen ?', and some unknown Targaryen relation (Rhaegel's wife was designated 'Targaryen WIFE ??').

Since we know that George has changed Queen Aelinor Targaryen into Aelinor Penrose, a cousin of Aerys I Targaryen, it is apparent that George changed the Targaryen family quite a bit in preparation for TWoIaF. He clearly reduced Daeron II's children to only four sons while it seems he may have originally had quite a few daughters as well as sons.

If we assume that at three of Daeron's sons - Aerys, Rhaegel, and Maekar - were originally supposed to be married to their sisters, my guess is that Jena Dondarrion, Alys Arryn, and Dyanna Dayne may all turn out to be Targaryen cousins to various degrees, being descended either from Rhaena or Baela Targaryen. That way the whole concept of cousin marriage which was supposed to dictate Targaryen marriage policy when there were no sisters available could be shown in greater detail, too.

Interesting information. 

I think at least part of the reason to delete daughters of daeron is to make sure daenerys is the only princess around to marry into dorne, then promote the blackfyre stuff. 

And I agree that Jena should have dragon blood which made her chosen, not by effort to please house dondarion. 

For arryn lady, she is high born enough to marry a mad prince. And she may have some distant blood from allyssa? 

Dyanna is likely a great beauty like ashara.  

 

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Interesting information. 

I think at least part of the reason to delete daughters of daeron is to make sure daenerys is the only princess around to marry into dorne, then promote the blackfyre stuff. 

And I agree that Jena should have dragon blood which made her chosen, not by effort to please house dondarion. 

For arryn lady, she is high born enough to marry a mad prince. And she may have some distant blood from allyssa? 

Dyanna is likely a great beauty like ashara.

I never thought about the whole thing, but you are right: Daeron's daughters would be either the same age or perhaps even older than Princess Daenerys, making it indeed very difficult to explain that Daeron II didn't marry one of his own daughters to Maron Martell instead of his sister.

Houses Dondarrion and Penrose clearly look two insignificant to warrant a marriage to the Prince of Dragonstone and his eldest brother (not to mention the second Penrose-Targaryen marriage involving Princess Elaena and Ronnel Penrose) even if we take into account that Daeron II wanted to make alliances in the Stormlands.

My guess is that closer relations like the Velaryons might have been passed over there in favor of the Dondarrion and Penrose cousins for political reasons.

In light of the age of Baelor Breakspear (same age as Daemon Blackfyre, making him fourteen when Daeron II took the throne) it is very likely that Daeron II made matches for all his son early in his reign. Baelor and Maekar both already had sons of their own when the Blackfyre Rebellion began.

The family tree tells us about the six daughters of Garmund Hightower and Rhaena Targaryen for a reason, and the fact that the Penroses are descended from one of them was effectively confirmed by Ran and Linda during one of their Dunk & Egg videos (they said that Aelinor is Aerys' cousins on the Targaryen side).

Four of them could have married into houses Dondarrion, Penrose, Arryn, and Dayne. The Dayne thing is possibly a little bit difficult but it could have happened during of after Daeron's Conquest. This doesn't have to be the case, of course, but it is certainly a possibility. Daeron II and Mariah later deciding to marry their youngest son to a Dayne cousin of the Targaryens certainly could have been a way to strengthen the bond between the Iron Throne and Dorne.

[Trogdor Targaryen]

14 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

purple-eyes was responding to my post where because of my English fail it looked like I was saying that Tywin didn't visit prostitutes at all. I deleted that part because it was confusing. Apparently now it is more confusing, lol.

I see. I didn't mean to sound blunt. I was just saying that a man can still love his lost wife and still have needs that he doesn't want to satisfy himself, especially since he doesn't have to(try tellin Tywin he can't do something, he ain't Bob but he raised Cersei).

Thanks for accepting my comment courteously, I didn't realize that you cleared some misunderstandings already.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

From what I know - I've seen a preliminary version to the Targaryen family tree that was published in TWoIaF - Maekar's original wife was not supposed to be a Dayne. In fact, she was designated 'Rhaena Targaryen ?', and some unknown Targaryen relation (Rhaegel's wife was designated 'Targaryen WIFE ??').

This is huge, we really could have used this info on the Dayne thread a couple weeks back. If Daynes are a late addition to the Targ family tree, that means George didn't originally intend all the Targ descendants to be possibilities for Sword of the Morning. No more Jon, Brienne, Aegon (if real or a Brightflame,) or Jaime (if Aerys' son.)

So if Edric is too young, Darkstar too malevolent, and Arthur too dead, then who will become the new Sword of the Morning? Perhaps the theories about Ashara having a living child aren't so crazy.