What was Rhaegar Targaryen thinking?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

10 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

It depends on the outcome. 

He believed prophecy and he started to do fighting training. This is not insane. 

But he believed prophecy and he screwed up a whole kingdom, then this is insane. 

Not if he was right

[purple-eyes]

3 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Not if he was right

I said many times, there are better and more peaceful ways to get a child from lyanna. 

But he was mad so he chose the worst and most straightforward one. 

It is like if you forgot your key in the house, then you just simply destroyed the door. Sure you made it, but with a big mess. You could have tried to enter by a window or check balcony or backyard or go find a locksmith to help you to fix this. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

4 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I said many times, there are better and more peaceful ways to get a child from lyanna. 

But he was mad so he chose the worst and most straightforward one. 

It is like if you forgot your key in the house, then you just simply destroyed the door. Sure you made it, but with a big mess. You could have tried to enter by a window or check balcony or backyard or go find a locksmith to help you to fix this. 

But that is where Aerys come in.

To take you analogy; You forgot your keys inside, but the house is on fire and your most important thing in the world is in there. Now breaking down the door seems a small price to pay, and the fastest way in regards to the short time you have to save it.

[purple-eyes]

8 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

But that is where Aerys come in.

To take you analogy; You forgot your keys inside, but the house is on fire and your most important thing in the world is in there. Now breaking down the door seems a small price to pay, and the fastest way in regards to the short time you have to save it.

The house is not on fire.

After 17 years others have not invaded yet.

Why not depose aerys firstly then do whatever he wants with lyanna? Even robert married her by then, it will still cause less problem compared to what he did. 

As a king rhaegar can simply get rid of robert and take lyanna without being crushed by his war hammer. 

Lyanna is 15, she has at least 25 more years to bear child for rhaegar. 

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Just now, purple-eyes said:

The house is not on fire.

After 17 years others have not invaded yet.

Why not depose aerys firstly then do whatever he wants with lyanna? Even robert married her by then, it will still cause less problem compared to what he did. 

As a king rhaegar can simply get rid of robert and take lyanna without being crushed by his war hammer. 

Lyanna is 15, she has at least 25 more years to bear child for rhaegar.

The house is on fire because Aerys is moving to arrest Lyanna, not because of the Others.

Rhaegar needs to act to save her, and in turn the world.

[purple-eyes]

1 minute ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

The house is on fire because Aerys is moving to arrest Lyanna, not because of the Others.

Rhaegar needs to act to save her, and in turn the world.

That is your opinion and I completely disagree. 

There was no saving or rescuing. 

Just two love birds ran to happiness and new life, like Paris and Helen. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

That is your opinion and I completely disagree. 

There was no saving or rescuing. 

Just two love birds ran to happiness and new life, like Paris and Helen. 

That is the great thing about this... we are going to find out somewhat soon.

[the tower of albion]

One of the things that continues to trouble me is the 1 year time gap between the tourney at Harrenhal and the abduction, it does suggest Lyanna wasn't interested. I don't see  maester Walys at Winterfell sending secret messages on behalf of a sixteen year old girl betrothed to another man, especially if there were "southron ambitions".  So she must of been abducted against her will?

[purple-eyes]

5 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

The house is on fire because Aerys is moving to arrest Lyanna, not because of the Others.

Rhaegar needs to act to save her, and in turn the world.

By the way, if he rescued her, why would he had a child with her? Why not leave her safe and find another woman to make a child which will not enrage house stark and robert? 

Is this how people rescue a girl? Put a child in her belly even she is already betrothed? 

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

That is the great thing about this... we are going to find out somewhat soon.

You mean show in April? 

Oh, you will be so disappointed. Show rhaegar and lyanna must elope for love, they did not even bother to mention kolt. Which means it is not important for their story plot at all. 

[purple-eyes]

6 minutes ago, the tower of albion said:

One of the things that continues to trouble me is the 1 year time gap between the tourney at Harrenhal and the abduction, it does suggest Lyanna wasn't interested. I don't see  maester Walys at Winterfell sending secret messages on behalf of a sixteen year old girl betrothed to another man, especially if there were "southron ambitions".  So she must of been abducted against her will?

She was abducted, but not against her will. 

She wished to be "abducted" by rhaegar. 

Just like when you are sleepy, somebody "force" you to accept a pillow. Then you gladly accept. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

6 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

You mean show in April? 

Oh, you will be so disappointed. Show rhaegar and lyanna must elope for love, they did not even bother to mention kolt. Which means it is not important for their story plot at all. 

Not the show, the show dumbs everything down and over simplifies stories. I doubt they even touch on Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage or even if Jon is a bastard and not in line for the throne, let alone why Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off.

[Knight Of Winter]

This debate was held many times before, and I still hold the same opinion: while Rhaegar was otherwise smart and intelligent person, his behaviour at the tourney of Harrenhall and afterwards is monumentally dumb.

So, Rhaegar understood that his dad was nuts and wanted to replace him. To do that, he wanted to assemble all the important lords at the tourney of Harrenhall. So far so good. But then, in front of everyone, he ignores his wife and crowns Lyanna as QOLAB (title which always has romantic connotation - so he basically publicly proclaims his wish to make Lyanna his mistress). This basically pisses of 3 of of 7 great houses - houses that Rhaegar invited at the tourney in order to win them over. And not just that, with such a blatant disragard for rules and norms, he made very lord present doubt his ability to rule (again, this is opposite of what Rhaegar should want).

Next, he captures Lyanna sometimes after the tourney and elopes with her to the TOJ, without either him or Lyanna communicating their intentions to anybody (e.g. Lyanna's family). Now shit really starts to hit the fan - Brandon furiously rides to KL, Aerys arrests him and calls for Rickard, Rickard arrives, Aerys kills both father and son in a mockery of trial and then calls for Ned's and Bob's heads. And while all of this was happening, while realm was slowly but surely plunging into civil war, where was Rhaegar? Was he negotiating with pissed Lord Paramounts? Was he in KL, trying to mend the situation peacefully? No, he was at the TOJ, busying himself with creating 3rd head of the dragon. See, this whole "civil war" doesn't bother him at least - compared to his all-important prophecy, such mundane trifles are irrelevant. In the end, I find it highly ironic how he chose to ignore civil war due to prophecy, and this very civil war ended up utterly destroying the prophecy (that his 3 children will be 3 heads of the dragon).

 

All in all, for such a able and intelligent guy, he was a colossal failure as a crown prince. Irresponsible and completely detached from reality.

[purple-eyes]

1 minute ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Not the show, the show dumbs everything down and over simplifies stories. I doubt they even touch on Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage or even if Jon is a bastard and not in line for the throne, let alone why Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off.

I disagree. 

In order to make watchers understand what is going on, they must explain it is a eloping or kidnapping. 

Bug I agree that they would not discuss other stuff like prophecy or politics or whatever. 

They will only let lyanna tell Ned: Ned, I was not kidnapped, I loved him and eloped with him. We are in love! Please protect my child! 

That is it. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

I disagree. 

In order to make watchers understand what is going on, they must explain it is a eloping or kidnapping. 

Bug I agree that they would not discuss other stuff like prophecy or politics or whatever. 

They will only let lyanna tell Ned: Ned, I was not kidnapped, I loved him and eloped with him. We are in love! Please protect my child! 

That is it. 

I never said they wouldn't say that Lyanna went willingly. They will make that point to have the aha moment of "They were in love"

But they wont get any deeper than that.

There will be no TKotLT, valonqar or other prophecies minus AAR that they have already discussed

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

This debate was held many times before, and I still hold the same opinion: while Rhaegar was otherwise smart and intelligent person, his behaviour at the tourney of Harrenhall and afterwards is monumentally dumb.

So, Rhaegar understood that his dad was nuts and wanted to replace him. To do that, he wanted to assemble all the important lords at the tourney of Harrenhall. So far so good. But then, in front of everyone, he ignores his wife and crowns Lyanna as QOLAB (title which always has romantic connotation - so he basically publicly proclaims his wish to make Lyanna his mistress). This basically pisses of 3 of of 7 great houses - houses that Rhaegar invited at the tourney in order to win them over. And not just that, with such a blatant disragard for rules and norms, he made very lord present doubt his ability to rule (again, this is opposite of what Rhaegar should want).

Did he? Darn. I have a hard time recalling anyone voicing such objections.

1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Next, he captures Lyanna sometimes after the tourney

Does he? Goodness, finally someone who knows what actually happened! Not hearsay and gossip, but actual facts! Spare no detail, please.

1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

and elopes with her to the TOJ

Does he?

1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

, without either him or Lyanna communicating their intentions to anybody (e.g. Lyanna's family). Now shit really starts to hit the fan - Brandon furiously rides to KL, Aerys arrests him and calls for Rickard, Rickard arrives, Aerys kills both father and son in a mockery of trial and then calls for Ned's and Bob's heads. And while all of this was happening, while realm was slowly but surely plunging into civil war, where was Rhaegar?

This is an excellent question! Where was Rhaegar all this time? I don't remember an actual account of the missing Rhaegar time.

1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Was he negotiating with pissed Lord Paramounts? Was he in KL, trying to mend the situation peacefully? No, he was at the TOJ, busying himself with creating 3rd head of the dragon.

Huh. So we know where he was all that time, and we know what he was doing all that time. I'm almost ashamed to ask, but how do we know all that?

1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

See, this whole "civil war" doesn't bother him at least - compared to his all-important prophecy, such mundane trifles are irrelevant. In the end, I find it highly ironic how he chose to ignore civil war due to prophecy, and this very civil war ended up utterly destroying the prophecy (that his 3 children will be 3 heads of the dragon).

 

All in all, for such a able and intelligent guy, he was a colossal failure as a crown prince. Irresponsible and completely detached from reality.

And why, if that's so obvious, nobody in the whole wide world doesn't appear to see that? There's one Robert, hating Rhaegar on strictly personal grounds, and that's it. The "irresponsible, detached from reality, monumentally dumb" assessment of the corpse formerly known as Crown Prince should be universal. Yet it's not. Is there any other character in the history of Westeros, ancient, recent or anything in between, who gets such an obviously undeserved, nearly universal free pass?

[purple-eyes]

3 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I never said they wouldn't say that Lyanna went willingly. They will make that point to have the aha moment of "They were in love"

But they wont get any deeper than that.

There will be no TKotLT, valonqar or other prophecies minus AAR that they have already discussed

Right. So we can get three things from show:

1. Jon is son of rhaegar and lyanna. 

2. They were in love and eloped, so no kidnapping or raping. 

3. Jon is a bastard, just a bastard of different man. 

There is no way they would introduce a polygamy marriage here. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

3 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Right. So we can get three things from show:

1. Jon is son of rhaegar and lyanna. 

2. They were in love and eloped, so no kidnapping or raping. 

3. Jon is a bastard, just a bastard of different man. 

There is no way they would introduce a polygamy marriage here. 

I agree, like I said they streamline and simplify everything

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Did he? Darn. I have a hard time recalling anyone voicing such objections.

Does he? Goodness, finally someone who knows what actually happened! Not hearsay and gossip, but actual facts! Spare no detail, please.

Does he?

This is an excellent question! Where was Rhaegar all this time? I don't remember an actual account of the missing Rhaegar time.

Huh. So we know where he was all that time, and we know what he was doing all that time. I'm almost ashamed to ask, but how do we know all that?

And why, if that's so obvious, nobody in the whole wide world doesn't appear to see that? There's one Robert, hating Rhaegar on strictly personal grounds, and that's it. The "irresponsible, detached from reality, monumentally dumb" assessment of the corpse formerly known as Crown Prince should be universal. Yet it's not. Is there any other character in the history of Westeros, ancient, recent or anything in between, who gets such an obviously undeserved, nearly universal free pass?

Grrm left a lot of blanks intentionally. If you keep saying we should not speculate because nobody know the fact except grrm, then this forum should be closed, or at least cut by half since we only can talk about facts. 

By the way, I believe rhaegar got a unique free pass. Nobody else got this benefits. Not robb, not Ned, not dany, not tyrion. Why? 

Because rhaegar is Gary Stu of this book. 

Everything rhaegar did and everything about him had to be praised and hailed as noble and wonderful and well loved and respected. Even his bloody death had to look like flying of precious rubies. 

This is almost the definition of Gary Stu. 

 

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

4 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Grrm left a lot of blanks intentionally. If you keep saying we should not speculate because nobody know the fact except grrm, then this forum should be closed, or at least cut by half since we only can talk about facts. 

No, I'm not saying that. I'm just pointing out what you're pointing out as well: those are speculations. KoW seemed to treat them as facts. Two quite different kinds of animals, and deserving different treatments.