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2 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And the best far-eyes, and seeing lenses come from Myr. 

True. I wonder whether that relates to the Myrish Lace, too. Fabric through which you can see.

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57 minutes ago, Seams said:

True. I wonder whether that relates to the Myrish Lace, too. Fabric through which you can see.

I would think so, if we think of the weaving fates as what they are - seers, oracles, prophetesses. 

And if we think about it in that way, it makes sense that Serala of Myr is nicknamed the Lace Serpent since the Pythia was the name given to the high priestess better known as the Oracle of Delphi. Which was in reference to Python, the original name of Delphi and was the name of the snake that Apollo killed. The word itself means to rot and is in reference to the sickly sweet smell of the rotting corpse of the snake. This is where I think your 'lies and Arbor Gold' fit in since through a Christian lens, snakes represent lies per the snake in the Garden of Eden but snakes in ancient time were considered animals of wisdom. Myr exports a pale green (Arbor/Arboreal) nector (flower/sweet) wine. Eta: This is why Varys smells sweet and Littlefinger smells of mint and even though Varys is called the spider many of us suspect that he is a dragon and both of those men are snakes. 

Ultimately I think George is saying that sometimes we see things through a (lace) veil. And after all, the word apocalypse means lifting of the veil. Whether it is the veil of death (the fall of the wall or/and the destruction of the Moon Gates to the Vale of Arryn), and any of the other instances of veils.  

However the lies and snakes/dragon associations is interesting to in the inversion that Dany (a dragon person) is called The Slayer of Lies. And there is ample evidence that dragons are akin to snakes in the text. And we need to consider that George is the name of a saint that killed a dragon as sacrifice if the populace of the town of Silene would be baptized and become Christian. (Hugor Hill and the Swan Maidens) 

Edited by Pain killer Jane

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1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I would think so, if we think of the weaving fates as what they are - seers, oracles, prophetesses. 

And if we think about it in that way, it makes sense that Serala of Myr is nicknamed the Lace Serpent since the Pythia was the name given to the high priestess better known as the Oracle of Delphi. Which was in reference to Python, the original name of Delphi and was the name of the snake that Apollo killed. The word itself means to rot and is in reference to the sickly sweet smell of the rotting corpse of the snake. This is where I think your 'lies and Arbor Gold' fit in since through a Christian lens, snakes represent lies per the snake in the Garden of Eden but snakes in ancient time were considered animals of wisdom. Myr exports a pale green (Arbor/Arboreal) nector (flower/sweet) wine. Eta: This is why Varys smells sweet and Littlefinger smells of mint and even though Varys is called the spider many of us suspect that he is a dragon and both of those men are snakes. 

Ultimately I think George is saying that sometimes we see things through a (lace) veil. And after all, the word apocalypse means lifting of the veil. Whether it is the veil of death (the fall of the wall or/and the destruction of the Moon Gates to the Vale of Arryn), and any of the other instances of veils.  

However the lies and snakes/dragon associations is interesting to in the inversion that Dany (a dragon person) is called The Slayer of Lies. And there is ample evidence that dragons are akin to snakes in the text. And we need to consider that George is the name of a saint that killed a dragon as sacrifice if the populace of the town of Silene would be baptized and become Christian. (Hugor Hill and the Swan Maidens) 

Margaery's wedding gown is made out of Myrish lace, isn't it?

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16 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Margaery's wedding gown is made out of Myrish lace, isn't it?

Yes Ivory Silk and Myrish Lace. And Margaery's grandmother is the Queen of Thorns and a member of House Redwyne (descendants of Gilbert of the Vines) therefore we can consider Margaery a rose/brier patch person. And Olenna used the Strangler to kill Joffrey which vines and snakes strangle. @Seams here is another instance of the Lies/serpents and Arbor Gold since House Redwyne is the provider of Arbor Gold. 

Sansa's dress also had dove-gray Myrish Lace on the front. (And Sansa's hairnet had black amethysts that the fandom has connected to the purple snakes that the GOHH sees.) 

Brienne had a pink satin and Myrish lace dress. Daario had 'a foam of Myrish Lace he color of butter spilled from his collar and cuffs'. And twice Cersei 'wore a gown of sea-green silk, trimmed with Myrish lace as pale as foam.' Once in Game of Thrones and the other time it is described as jade green and with both she wore an emerald described as big as a pigeon's egg. (the colors usually associated with birds is eggshell white and Robin's egg blue.) 

Tyene Sand had 'a gown of pale blue samite with Myrish lace sleeves that made her look as innocent as the maid herself." And after all she is a Sand Snake. ETA: Que Devil with the Blue Dress On.

Edited by Pain killer Jane

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1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Yes Ivory Silk and Myrish Lace. And Margaery's grandmother is the Queen of Thorns and a member of House Redwyne (descendants of Gilbert of the Vines) therefore we can consider Margaery a rose/brier patch person. And Olenna used the Strangler to kill Joffrey which vines and snakes strangle. 

Sansa's dress also had dove-gray Myrish Lace on the front. (And Sansa's hairnet had black amethysts that the fandom has connected to the purple snakes that the GOHH sees.) 

Brienne had a pink satin and Myrish lace dress. Daario had 'a foam of Myrish Lace he color of butter spilled from his collar and cuffs'. And twice Cersei 'wore a gown of sea-green silk, trimmed with Myrish lace as pale as foam.' Once in Game of Thrones and the other time it is described as jade green and with both she wore an emerald described as big as a pigeon's egg. (the colors usually associated with birds is eggshell white and Robin's egg blue.) 

Tyene Sand had 'a gown of pale blue samite with Myrish lace sleeves that made her look as innocent as the maid herself." And after all she is a Sand Snake. 

This could be an interesting topic. @sweetsunray and I (informally) went over Myrish lace in the story, or just things from Myr, and it seems that they are not what they seem. Such as the Myrish lens makes things closer than they appear, Sweets is not what s/he appears to be, etc. We found this not to be confused with the duplicity/betrayal you get with the clues that come from plums or pomegranates, though.

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2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This could be an interesting topic. @sweetsunray and I (informally) went over Myrish lace in the story, or just things from Myr, and it seems that they are not what they seem. Such as the Myrish lens makes things closer than they appear, Sweets is not what s/he appears to be, etc. We found this not to be confused with the duplicity/betrayal you get with the clues that come from plums or pomegranates, though.

I would say the Arbor Gold would be the duplicity/betrayal because I tend to think it is connected to the whitewashing with lime (lime juice being used to bleach hair such as Lann does and 'Beneath the Gold the bitter steel' would be Iron pyrite, Fool's gold) and cannibalism. Unless the pale green nectar wine is mimicking Arbor Gold. I tend to think they do only because the pale green nectar wine sounds like Absinthe aka the Green Fairy. (This is because it is made of wormwood, worms being both associated with dragons/snakes and death in text.) 

I agree that the Myrish lace is definitely alluding to a veil covering the eyes, whether that is a mourning veil, a wedding veil, Vale of Arryn, The Wall, the Apocalypse, Veiled Lady, Lady Stoneheart as the Shrouded Lady a la the Shrouded Lord, The Just Maid (alluding to Blind Lady Justice if we combine Tyene Sand wearing the blue dress with Myrish Lace described as the Maid herself with the Maid herself falling in love with Galladon of Morne and putting on a wedding veil and gave her husband/lover a sword). 

If Arbor Gold is straight up lies then I would say Myrish Lace is lying by omission at worst and veiled truth at best. 

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Just now, Pain killer Jane said:

I would say the Arbor Gold would be the duplicity/betrayal because I tend to think it is connected to the whitewashing with lime (lime juice being used to bleach hair such as Lann does and 'Beneath the Gold the bitter steel' would be Iron pyrite, Fool's gold) and cannibalism. Unless the pale green nectar wine is mimicking Arbor Gold. I tend to think they do only because the pale green nectar wine sounds like Absinthe aka the Green Fairy. (This is because it is made of wormwood, worms being both associated with dragons/snakes and death in text.) 

I agree that the Myrish lace is definitely alluding to a veil covering the eyes, whether that is a mourning veil, a wedding veil, Vale of Arryn, The Wall, the Apocalypse, Veiled Lady, Lady Stoneheart as the Shrouded Lady a la the Shrouded Lord, The Just Maid (alluding to Blind Lady Justice if we combine Tyene Sand wearing the blue dress with Myrish Lace described as the Maid herself with the Maid herself falling in love with Galladon of Morne and putting on a wedding veil and gave her husband/lover a sword). 

If Arbor Gold is straight up lies then I would say Myrish Lace is lying by omission at worst and veiled truth at best. 

Sounds about right. There were some instances with myrish carpets specifically being in the room when lies were told. See, this could be an interesting thread ;)

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1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Sounds about right. There were some instances with myrish carpets specifically being in the room when lies were told. See, this could be an interesting thread ;)

Absolutely. Someone should make it topic.  And I like the pun

Edited by Pain killer Jane

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8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Sounds about right. There were some instances with myrish carpets specifically being in the room when lies were told. See, this could be an interesting thread ;)

Btw we should consider that a lot of the instances of the Myrish Lace are as sleeves which has the same etymology as the word slip. And slipping is warging in text which if you connect them would be Green Sleeves. 

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7 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Btw we should consider that a lot of the instances of the Myrish Lace are as sleeves which has the same etymology as the word slip. And slipping is warging in text which if you connect them would be Green Sleeves. 

Ghost tears Tyrion's sleeve in an early encounter. Fascinating.

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I'd say Myrish stuff isn't just "lie" but "false" and "falsehood", which can be the same at times but Myrish carpets are a "cover up", Myrish lenses give a "false perception" (which is true in a physical sense even: while you perceive things better, seeing a right side up image through a lens is called a "virtual image". A "real image" is upside down). Lysa's letter as the message in a box with a Myrish lens. Taena is "false".  Arbor Gold is about making someone swallow "words" of a lie. But Myrish stuff often appears in very elaborate long-term plans of falsehood and deception, some with harmful intent, some with self-protection intent, some with harmless intent. The slave Sweets is not as sweet, but the gender confusion Sweet create is of the harmless intent. Darry laying Myrish carpets in his room to cover up he still has Targ carpets is more out of self-protection. 

Anyhow whenever something Myrish or someone from Myr appears it's a tell-tale that not all is what it seems.

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I just took a look at a Tattered Prince discussion, and it occurred to me that a person who makes lace is called a tatter. Is the Tattered Prince a symbolic lacemaker? Or is he the lace that has been made by the tatter?

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

I just took a look at a Tattered Prince discussion, and it occurred to me that a person who makes lace is called a tatter. Is the Tattered Prince a symbolic lacemaker? Or is he the lace that has been made by the tatter?

I'd say the "lace". He ain't who he says he is ;) But we kind of knew that already, right?

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

I just took a look at a Tattered Prince discussion, and it occurred to me that a person who makes lace is called a tatter. Is the Tattered Prince a symbolic lacemaker? Or is he the lace that has been made by the tatter?

He reminds me of a fool knight and his horse is a direct combination of Yggdrasil as a Hanging Tree or Wishing Tree and a Gallows Horse.

On 1/19/2017 at 0:36 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

 

On 1/19/2017 at 10:04 AM, ravenous reader said:

and of course, there's a play on whole, hole, and holy too!

And since it is related to motely, mottled, rags, we could look at the Tattered Prince, a grey prince with a cloak of many colors (seems reminiscent of Joseph and his Cloak of Many Colors) taking pieces of cloth from the men he has killed to make the blanket for his Grey/white horse (sort of like taking scalps, ears, teeth and since those pieces of cloth probably have dried blood on them then it would echo 'plucking of flowers' Loras does at the Tourney. ETA: Dunk the gallows knight taking Rohanne Webber's hair and possibly giving her an heir.)

 

 

Edited by Pain killer Jane

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5 hours ago, Seams said:

Ghost tears Tyrion's sleeve in an early encounter. Fascinating.

Nice find. I don't remember those. I also think that it is interesting that they are women's arms. 

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straw / wart

"Ser Lancel's a wineskin warrior who wouldn't know a warg from a wart."

(ACoK, Sansa III I believe)

I was thinking about the straw hats along with the straw jousting dummy that knocks down Tommen and the Winterfell guard called Hayhead (he is assigned to guard Bran after the catspaw attack) and the scarecrows that the Night's Watch set up to try to fool the wildlings into thinking they have more men than they do.

The straw hats were briefly discussed in a recent post in the direwolf re-read. I think they refer back to Aegon V / Egg of the Dunk & Egg stories. I'm not sure yet why Sam Tarly and Arya wear floppy (but not straw) hats. "Floppy" is a word associated with the "floppy ears" that Dany wears when she presides over the court at Meereen, so maybe straw and floppy are both Targaryen symbols, but Aegon has a hat that is both straw and floppy, while Dany has only the floppy aspect and fAegon, on the Shy Maid, has a straw hat. Is it necessary to have both floppy and straw together for the realm to know peace again?

Pondering whether there might be a wordplay hint about the straw, I thought of the unusual choice of words from Tyrion, comparing a warg and a wart. If there is a pun on straw and wart, this might be our hint. In The Once and Future King, the future King Arthur is nicknamed "Wart."

Are there any ASOIAF characters described as having warts that might help us to sort out this word pair? If that character is related to the Targs, it could confirm the connection. Is contracting greyscale similar to having a wart problem?

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

straw / wart

"Ser Lancel's a wineskin warrior who wouldn't know a warg from a wart."

(ACoK, Sansa III I believe)

I was thinking about the straw hats along with the straw jousting dummy that knocks down Tommen and the Winterfell guard called Hayhead (he is assigned to guard Bran after the catspaw attack) and the scarecrows that the Night's Watch set up to try to fool the wildlings into thinking they have more men than they do.

The straw hats were briefly discussed in a recent post in the direwolf re-read. I think they refer back to Aegon V / Egg of the Dunk & Egg stories. I'm not sure yet why Sam Tarly and Arya wear floppy (but not straw) hats. "Floppy" is a word associated with the "floppy ears" that Dany wears when she presides over the court at Meereen, so maybe straw and floppy are both Targaryen symbols, but Aegon has a hat that is both straw and floppy, while Dany has only the floppy aspect and fAegon, on the Shy Maid, has a straw hat. Is it necessary to have both floppy and straw together for the realm to know peace again?

Pondering whether there might be a wordplay hint about the straw, I thought of the unusual choice of words from Tyrion, comparing a warg and a wart. If there is a pun on straw and wart, this might be our hint. In The Once and Future King, the future King Arthur is nicknamed "Wart."

Are there any ASOIAF characters described as having warts that might help us to sort out this word pair? If that character is related to the Targs, it could confirm the connection. Is contracting greyscale similar to having a wart problem?

The straw hat might be an allusion to the wicker man. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicker_man

The wicker man is a symbol of resurrection god, like many similar deities European and Middle Eastern mythology.  You're probably already familiar with John Barleycorn and the Corn King.  These "kings," seen as a personification of a fertility god, were sacrificed in the fall so that harvest would be fruitful.  

The burning of the wicker man represents this sacrifice.

Aegon V's burning brought life.  A "dragon" was hatched when he died, although this "dragon hatching" was Rhaella giving birth to Rhaegar. 

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

I was thinking about the straw hats along with the straw jousting dummy that knocks down Tommen and the Winterfell guard called Hayhead (he is assigned to guard Bran after the catspaw attack) and the scarecrows that the Night's Watch set up to try to fool the wildlings into thinking they have more men than they do.

The straw hats were briefly discussed in a recent post in the direwolf re-read. I think they refer back to Aegon V / Egg of the Dunk & Egg stories. I'm not sure yet why Sam Tarly and Arya wear floppy (but not straw) hats. "Floppy" is a word associated with the "floppy ears" that Dany wears when she presides over the court at Meereen, so maybe straw and floppy are both Targaryen symbols, but Aegon has a hat that is both straw and floppy, while Dany has only the floppy aspect and fAegon, on the Shy Maid, has a straw hat. Is it necessary to have both floppy and straw together for the realm to know peace again?

Well the floppy hat and ears of the Dany's makes her the King/Queen of Rabbits. That is a fertility symbol (and a moon symbol as in Eastern cultures have often said that the moon has a Rabbit pounding the elixir of immortality for the Gods) associated with her Unsullied's spiked helm, Gilly as the pregnant Keeper of Rabbits, the Wild Hares with the hares on the spears, the Unsullied of Qohor having the hair braids of the Dothraki, and leading to the hair/heir pun relating to power in the Dothraki. 

Floppy since it is connected to fertility symbolism therefore should be considered the euphemism for impotence or not having fertility. However, you are also right in considering them connected to scarecrows as the image of a scarecrow should conjure a straw hat.

fAegon having a straw hat is another way of showing that he is the cloth dragon on poles in front of the people cheering. fAegon is the straw man made by Illariyo and Varys and is to be touted as a savior of Westeros. But the thing there is that scarecrows are also sacrificed/crucified people. Imagine the savior of Westeros (with his floppy straw hat) being burned by one of Dany's dragons. 

Scarecrows also have connections to fertility as originally they were people crucified to ensure a bountiful harvest. But it also has connections to knowledge as the Japanese have a deity that is a scarecrow and the god of knowledge, Kubeiko and Odin spearing himself and hanging himself from Yggdrasil in order to learn the secrets of the runes. We also know this aspect of the scarecrow through the Scarecrow and Jack Pumpkin head in The Wizard of Oz. 

Having a straw head also means having blonde hair which in our modern times is often used as a euphemism for being dumb, foolish, or forgetful. 

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10 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

The straw hat might be an allusion to the wicker man. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicker_man

The wicker man is a symbol of resurrection god, like many similar deities European and Middle Eastern mythology.  You're probably already familiar with John Barleycorn and the Corn King.  These "kings," seen as a personification of a fertility god, were sacrificed in the fall so that harvest would be fruitful.  

The burning of the wicker man represents this sacrifice.

Aegon V's burning brought life.  A "dragon" was hatched when he died, although this "dragon hatching" was Rhaella giving birth to Rhaegar. 

:agree: I loved LmL's episodes on the Scared Order of Green Zombies. 

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12 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

 

fAegon having a straw hat is another way of showing that he is the cloth dragon on poles in front of the people cheering. fAegon is the straw man made by Illariyo and Varys and is to be touted as a savior of Westeros.

Although I agree that mummer’s dragon alludes to a puppet king, I don't think the straw hat alludes to anything like that.  (As stated above.)  The wide-brimmed straw hat is worn most often by Egg.  

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=straw+hat&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=tmk&scope[]=acok&scope[]=twow&scope[]=asos&scope[]=thk&scope[]=affc&scope[]=tss

30 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Well the floppy hat and ears of the Dany's makes her the King/Queen of Rabbits. That is a fertility symbol (and a moon symbol as in Eastern cultures have often said that the moon has a Rabbit pounding the elixir of immortality for the Gods) associated with her Unsullied's spiked helm, Gilly as the pregnant Keeper of Rabbits, the Wild Hares with the hares on the spears, the Unsullied of Qohor having the hair braids of the Dothraki, and leading to the hair/heir pun relating to power in the Dothraki. 

Floppy since it is connected to fertility symbolism therefore should be considered the euphemism for impotence or not having fertility. However, you are also right in considering them connected to scarecrows as the image of a scarecrow should conjure a straw hat.

Interesting.

Dany is unable to bring peace (an aspect of fertility and life) to Meereen, and definitely won't in the future if "dragons plant no trees" is her new mantra. 

34 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Having a straw head also means having blonde hair which in our modern times is often used as a euphemism for being dumb, foolish, or forgetful. 

Hmm, Brienne's hair is described as straw, and one of Daenerys' Dothraki handmaidens calls Doreah a "straw head slave."

34 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

:agree: I loved LmL's episodes on the Scared Order of Green Zombies. 

I do too!!  

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