Shouldn't the Northerners be able to speak the Old Tongue?

[Nicklas Black]

...at least to some extend?
We know that the Andals conquered the Southern half of Westeros quite some time ago..
Therefore, it is understandable for people south of the Riverlands to speak the Common Tongue, since the two populations mixed to a large extend, and the Andal culture, language and religion were probably/certainly imposed on the defeated First Men..
However, the North was independent until Aegon I, and I don't see  how a language could be regionally eradicated to completion, in the span of less than 300 years..
Thus, a question takes form: If the Old Tongue could survive north of the Wall, why couldn't it survive at least north of Moat Cailin?
We know that Martin likes to borrow from history to form his world background, but I don't know if there's an actual historical case of a population losing their native language without being conquered or under some kind of rule..
If anything, there are cases where languages survived under long and tough rule.. (Greeks under the Ottomans)
I don't think proximity or trade between the kingdoms could cause this disappearance phenomenon..
There are actual cases of proximity causing common features between languages (see Balkan Sprachbund), but those languages remain different in most other respects..
I might be missing something, since I don't have The World of Ice & Fire with me right now to check..
And before you heckle me , I know that it is a novel, and that Martin isn't a philologist like Tolkien who could create languages, but there must be some kind of explanation that, I am either missing or is to come on some future publication..

[Lord Ravenstark]

Yes, but it was simplified for the sake of a best flowing in narrative.

Pretty much all of Westeros is just First Man who adopted Andal culture.

[Nicklas Black]

7 minutes ago, Lord Ravenstark said:

Yes, but it was simplified for the sake of a best flowing in narrative.

Pretty much all of Westeros is just First Man who adopted Andal culture.

It's just quite uncommon for Martin to "simplify" things and it kind of bothers me..
A somewhat "historically" accurate explanation in the GRRMarillion would be nice..

[Queen Alienor]

5 minutes ago, Lord Ravenstark said:

Yes, but it was simplified for the sake of a best flowing in narrative.

Pretty much all of Westeros is just First Man who adopted Andal culture.

It's the same with the Dornish who should really speak at least some Rhoynish, and the fact that there really should be more dialects. Like, there should be phrases in the North that don't exist in the Reach, for example, or words that are used in a completely different context. Heck, just listen to for example a Scottish and compare it to the speech of a Brit from London, there's a lot of difference there, and Westeros is supposed to be as big as Europe.

Martin likes to borrow heavily from history, but he's not completely copying it. He sometimes takes a few shortcuts, for example with the fact that Planetos seems to be caught in a mediaval stasis (seriously, they seem to be at the same level of technology as they were threehundred years before, and if the ancient history we're told is true, they haven't actually changed in thousands of years). Sometimes the travelling time doesn't quite fit. I guess language is just another thing he made a bit easier as to not make the whole thing too confusing.

[Nicklas Black]

10 minutes ago, Queen Alienor said:

It's the same with the Dornish who should really speak at least some Rhoynish, and the fact that there really should be more dialects. Like, there should be phrases in the North that don't exist in the Reach, for example, or words that are used in a completely different context. Heck, just listen to for example a Scottish and compare it to the speech of a Brit from London, there's a lot of difference there, and Westeros is supposed to be as big as Europe.

Martin likes to borrow heavily from history, but he's not completely copying it. He sometimes takes a few shortcuts, for example with the fact that Planetos seems to be caught in a mediaval stasis (seriously, they seem to be at the same level of technology as they were threehundred years before, and if the ancient history we're told is true, they haven't actually changed in thousands of years). Sometimes the travelling time doesn't quite fit. I guess language is just another thing he made a bit easier as to not make the whole thing too confusing.

I agree that there should at least be some dialectal variation..
But I don't think having different languages to a small extend would be confusing..
At least not for dedicated fans..
I mean, look at those Tolkien fans that are obsessed with Elven culture and language..

 

[Queen Alienor]

2 minutes ago, Nicklas Black said:

But I don't think having different languages to a small extend would be confusing..
At least not for dedicated fans..
I mean, look at the Tolkien fans that are obsessed with Elven culture and language..

Sure, but Martin isn't only trying to reach hardcore fans. He also wants "average" fantasy fans to read the books, those who won't analyze it or anything and will move on to the next book soon. The books are already very complicated, with hundreds of characters to keep track of, so he might have thought that bringing in Westerosi dialects etc would have just made it too difficult.

Of course, it also makes it easier for Martin himself as writer when he doesn't have to figure out an entire language

[Nicklas Black]

1 minute ago, Queen Alienor said:

Sure, but Martin isn't only trying to reach hardcore fans. He also wants "average" fantasy fans to read the books, those who won't analyze it or anything and will move on to the next book soon. The books are already very complicated, with hundreds of characters to keep track of, so he might have thought that bringing in Westerosi dialects etc would have just made it too difficult.

Of course, it also makes it easier for Martin himself as writer when he doesn't have to figure out an entire language

I guess some people might be put off by something like that, but at the same time it hasn't stopped Tolkien from becoming hugely popular..
He could have consulted linguists etc. to create at least something to have in there.. (like HBO did with Dothraki)
You can't find whole paragraphs of Quenya in LOTR, but the amount there is, gives an extra exotic factor to that culture and allows for those who want to, to pursue further knowledge on it..

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

5 minutes ago, Nicklas Black said:

It's just quite uncommon for Martin to "simplify" things and it kind of bothers me..
A somewhat "historically" accurate explanation in the GRRMarillion would be nice..

Actually, GRRM takes shortcuts in worldbuilding here and there. Just consider this: there are five cities in the entire Seven Kingdoms. Five. On a continent the size of South America. Can you imagine medieval Europe, but twice as big and with only five cities? Seriously.

Common Tongue remaining common even in the Andal kingdoms is hard to believe. I mean, it's been thousands of years. There should be maybe a dozen Andal languages by now, just like there are numerous, and not exactly mutually intelligible, Slavic languages or Romance languages.

But Common Tongue is a useful hack, one less thing for the world builder to worry about, unless he specifically chooses so.

[Queen Alienor]

3 minutes ago, Nicklas Black said:

I guess some people might be put off by something like that, but at the same time it hasn't stopped Tolkien from becoming hugely popular..
He could have consulted linguists etc. to create at least something to have in there.. (like HBO did with Dothraki)
You can't find whole paragraphs of Quenya in LOTR, but the amount there is, gives an extra exotic factor to that culture and allows for those who want to, to pursue further knowledge on it..

I guess he could have, but at the time he wrote the first book, he coudln't predict it would be this successful, and I really think he just thought of it as one thing he can make a bit easier for everyone.

2 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Actually, GRRM takes shortcuts in worldbuilding here and there. Just consider this: there are five cities in the entire Seven Kingdoms. Five. On a continent the size of South America. Can you imagine medieval Europe, but twice as big and with only five cities? Seriously.

Common Tongue remaining common even in the Andal kingdoms is hard to believe. I mean, it's been thousands of years. There should be maybe a dozen Andal languages by now, just like there are numerous, and not exactly mutually intelligible, Slavic languages or Romance languages.

But Common Tongue is a useful hack, one less thing for the world builder to worry about, unless he specifically chooses so.

Exactly. He is a great worldbuilder, he really is, but sometimes he just takes the easy way out.

[Nicklas Black]

11 minutes ago, Queen Alienor said:

I really think he just thought of it as one thing he can make a bit easier for everyone.

Again, I think "easier" is subjective..
Smth one fan may consider easier, could be unfulfilling for the next..
And an aspect that maybe be challenging/difficult for someone, could be considered a great addition by someone else..
I'm probably just unable to see the "really casual reader" perspective..

Ps: to clarify I don't consider myself to be a hardcore reader..
I'm probably downright average on that respect..
But I would have, as sure as hell, liked Old Nan quoting some Old Tongue expression that had smth to do with the Old Gods or the First Men culture in general..
It's just extra bit of information and world background..

[Queen Alienor]

2 minutes ago, Nicklas Black said:

Again, I think "easier" is subjective..
Smth one fan may consider easier, could be unfulfilling for the next..
And an aspect that maybe be challenging/difficult for someone, could be considered a great addition by someone else..
I'm probably just unable to see the "really casual reader" perspective..

Sure. Believe me, I'd love it if there were some more language variation in this Sadly, it's not in it, so...

[norwaywolf123]

39 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Actually, GRRM takes shortcuts in worldbuilding here and there. Just consider this: there are five cities in the entire Seven Kingdoms. Five. On a continent the size of South America. Can you imagine medieval Europe, but twice as big and with only five cities? Seriously.

Common Tongue remaining common even in the Andal kingdoms is hard to believe. I mean, it's been thousands of years. There should be maybe a dozen Andal languages by now, just like there are numerous, and not exactly mutually intelligible, Slavic languages or Romance languages.

But Common Tongue is a useful hack, one less thing for the world builder to worry about, unless he specifically chooses so.

There probably are many dialects among the smallfolk but the nobility talks in their own way. So it depends on social standing and location. The common tongue is probably a mix of andal and first men with a dash valyrian/ rhoynar/ other. In dorne maybe more rhoynar influence, in the vale more andal, in the reach and westerlands more first men/ old tongue similarities.

[Chicxulub]

I was always under the impression that the Common Tongue was a First Men language that blossomed after the Long Night.  The Long Night and the raising of the Wall is what cut the wildlings off from the south, geographically and culturally. 

Another point to consider is that there DOES seem to be some regional differentiation in dialect, though for simplicity's sake, it doesn't make it into text.  There's a Tyrion chapter in ADWD where he's talking about making up his story for Hugor, and he says how he has to be some Westerman's bastard, because he sounds like a highborn Westerman.  For the most part, Tyrion's speech patterns don't read any differently than any other educated character, so that implies a regional dialect that GRRM simply didn't write in for ease of reading.

[Nicklas Black]

5 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

There probably are many dialects among the smallfolk but the nobility talks in their own way. So it depends on social standing and location. The common tongue is probably a mix of andal and first men with a dash valyrian/ rhoynar/ other. In dorne maybe more rhoynar influence, in the vale more andal, in the reach and westerlands more first men/ old tongue similarities.

An amalgamation is an interesting explanation but another one that doesn't hold up historically..
And we have evidence of the existence of the Old Tongue (and a couple of words in it) so I think we can rule out the mixing possibility..
The Common Tongue is in all probability purely Andal in origin..

[norwaywolf123]

Just now, Nicklas Black said:

An amalgamation is an interesting explanation but another one that doesn't hold up historically..
And we have evidence of the existence of the Old Tongue (and a couple of words in it) so I think we can rule out the mixing possibility..
The Common Tongue is in all probability purely Andal in origin..

I doubt that. In my belief it is similar to the way the normans influeced english.

[Bluetiger]

Actually, GRRM takes shortcuts in worldbuilding here and there. Just consider this: there are five cities in the entire Seven Kingdoms. Five. On a continent the size of South America. Can you imagine medieval Europe, but twice as big and with only five cities? Seriously.

Well, 4 of those cities are bigger than medieval Paris, London, Amsterdam, Hague and Rome....

Few hundred towns almost certainly exist, (Lord Harroway's Town, Lord Hewett's Town, Maidenpool, Duskendale, Tumbleton, Planky Town, Weeping Town, Stoney Sept, Barrowton, Harrenton,) and many unknown.

Even Pebbleton on the sparsly populated Iron Islands has population of over 7000, so other towns might be much bigger.

It seems that in Westeros town is called "city' if it's much bigger than other towns in the region and has population of

[Nicklas Black]

3 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

I doubt that. In my belief it is similar to the way the normans influeced english.

It could be..
But I don't think we have any evidence in the text that suggests aspects of the Old Tongue or Rhoynish being adopted by the Common Tongue..
Especially since Martin would have to alter the english language to do that..

[norwaywolf123]

3 minutes ago, Nicklas Black said:

It could be..
But I don't think we have any evidence in the text that suggests aspects of the Old Tongue or Rhoynish being adopted by the Common Tongue..
Especially since Martin would have to alter the english language to do that..

i think it is taht way but GRRM just didnt bother giving a diffrent twist on many words depending on who sopke them or diffrent words like dog and hound as georaphic description. Example: if they used dog in the south anf hound in the north.

[Bluetiger]

It could be..

But I don't think we have any evidence in the text that suggests aspects of the Old Tongue or Rhoynish being adopted by the Common Tongue..

Especially since Martin would have to alter the english language to do that.. [emoji14]

i think it is taht way but GRRM just didnt bother giving a diffrent twist on many words depending on who sopke them or diffrent words like dog and hound as georaphic description. Example: if they used dog in the south anf hound in the north.

Those words mean sth different, so George would have to create 2 new words, one for hunting dog breed and one to not-hunting used hound.

[Nicklas Black]

1 minute ago, norwaywolf123 said:

i think it is taht way but GRRM just didnt bother giving a diffrent twist on many words depending on who sopke them or diffrent words like dog and hound as georaphic description. Example: if they used dog in the south anf hound in the north.

Ok sure there is a small amount of variation like this, but it isn't in any way close to a satisfactory one..