Some thoughts on Alayne Stone and Littlefinger.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Didn't you claim to research it in your opening post? Like you did in all you other threads?

Anyway back to the discussion. The idea that people in the Vale would see Sansa and jump to the conclusion that she is a Tully based on her looks is ridiculous. There are many people in Westeros with blue eyes and red hair. Having that combination does not mean people are going to assume that it must be a Tully. It was a weak point to make.

 

Changing your tune I see?. 

You said I claimed to have researched it heavily and placed an 'lol'. Like that was funny that I researched something heavily. Erm, OK. 

I never even said that. Now your backtracking. Again! 

Yes I researched my topic, doesn't everybody? 

Littledragon. I strongly suggest you take a time out and read this whole thread from the start because I am more than up to the job of knowing and stating EXACTLY what's been said on my own thread. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

And again Lol, go back to the start, I tried to discuss the thread but you started rambling about Targaryens and how there wasn't a Tully look but now after nearly a hundred posts people are finally getting onside that there is. And you are to although it may take another 1000 posts until you admit it lol. Come on mate, it's time now. Your games up.

I said there is not a distinctive Tully look not that there is not a 'Tully look'. Which is true. Red hair and Blue eyes seem common traits in Westeros.

I have no idea why you feel the need to constantly misrepresent other peoples points.

The idea that the people in the Vale will see Sansa and think that she is a Tully is idiotic.

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Changing your tune I see?. 

You said I claimed to have researched it heavily and placed an 'lol'. Like that was funny that I researched something heavily. Erm, OK. 

Because it is funny. Just like when you claimed to research the Waynwood tree and then invented a brother and argued page after page that he existed. It was quite funny if not a title delusional.

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I never even said that. Now your backtracking. Again! 

Nope. Trying to be clear as you have a tendency to make up arguments such as seat numbers like it was a Lakers game.

 

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Littledragon. I strongly suggest you take a time out and read this whole thread from the start because I am more than up to the job of knowing and stating EXACTLY what's been said on my own thread. 

Sure you are

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I said there is not a distinctive Tully look not that there is not a 'Tully look'. Which is true. Red hair and Blue eyes seem common traits in Westeros.

I have no idea why you feel the need to constantly misrepresent other peoples points.

The idea that the people in the Vale will see Sansa and think that she is a Tully is idiotic.

Because it is funny. Just like when you claimed to research the Waynwood tree and then invented a brother and argued page after page that he existed. It was quite funny if not a title delusional.

Nope. Trying to be clear as you have a tendency to make up arguments such as seat numbers like it was a Lakers game.

 

Sure you are

Look mate, there is a Tully look. Are you finally agreeing this is so yes? Even though it's only because others have done so 1st and your following suit I'll take it, god it's took you long enough to admit it this is actually a breakthrough moment and I'm just happy it's happened.

You. Yes you all by yourself made this thread about whether or not there was a Tully look and if LF could have used it to recognise Sansa in the stands. Your own thought was that he had a spy find out her specific special seat which was factually proven to be bullshit mate.

Infact, she was reserved a 'place' in the noble pavillion. The clinching fact that made LF know who this girl was. And wait, because I don't want to have to write it again. The clinching fact was the beautiful girl, with auburn hair and blue eyes, who looks like a young cat, is this girls Tully looks!.

No special seats. No spies. No conspiracies. 

There are Tully looks. 

Sansa had them in abundance. YOU know that now lol.

And LF when he headed to the tourney knew that's what he was looking for.

 

And I would love to embarrass you and show a quote from the Waynwood thread that shows you agreed my possible theory was possible LLOOLLL. But I won't because I'm not that harsh. But it wasn't until Direpupy who has actually studied succession matters properly explained it that you changed your tune lol. 

So there's a pattern emerging. You are a follower. Wrong or right. You will follow someone else's word. I'm glad you brought the Waynwood thing up lol. 

Incidentally, me and Direpupy are supercool after that thread. It strengthened us on here. While you still run around trying to debunk people and seem knowledgable. If I was vindictive I would say it's pathetic. But I won't. Infact, I have very little opinion of your technique. I just hope more newcomers to the forum are not put off by your out of date approach.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 If I was vindictive I would say it's pathetic. But I won't.

lol If you think its pathetic then say so. Have some courage.

Nothing in this thread backs up your assertion that the Vale Lords will recognize Sansa on her looks alone. Nothing. If believing that makes me a follower then so be it, that is my cross to carry.

[Macgregor of the North]

29 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I said there is not a distinctive Tully look not that there is not a 'Tully look'. Which is true. Red hair and Blue eyes seem common traits in Westeros.

I have no idea why you feel the need to constantly misrepresent other peoples points.

The idea that the people in the Vale will see Sansa and think that she is a Tully is idiotic.

Because it is funny. Just like when you claimed to research the Waynwood tree and then invented a brother and argued page after page that he existed. It was quite funny if not a title delusional.

Nope. Trying to be clear as you have a tendency to make up arguments such as seat numbers like it was a Lakers game.

 

Sure you are

Just looked at this again and had to shake my head at your desperate technique here. How come every single person on the Waynwood thread understood that the whole thread was based around 'IF' there was a brother?

littkedragon I once thought you were possibly a smart guy but just a tad stubborn which is understandable in men. God knows I am. But the comments you are making now. I'm sorry but they show you as a bitter, childish... Well I could go on but if I am honest, there's thousands of fun posts in this forum I could be directing my attention to so I'll leave you in your own world. I hope you take the stick out your ass mate and lighten up, and remember. You do NOT know everything.

Take it easy. 

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

lol If you think its pathetic then say so. Have some courage.

Nothing in this thread backs up your assertion that the Vale Lords will recognize Sansa on her looks alone. Nothing. If believing that makes me a follower then so be it, that is my cross to carry.

Have some courage? Lol. Am I detecting challenging Internet behaviour? Get a grip of yourself mate. I nearly fell off my seat there. Internet bravado is about as much use as nipples on a breastplate LOL.  See my last post babywingedcreature. Time to check out. You stopped being a sensible counterpoint in forum discussion about 101 posts ago. Go harass somebody else who hasnt figured you out yet. Next time, think before you try your antics on my thread mate. You will be countered every time. See you around. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

12 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Just looked at this again and had to shake my head at your desperate technique here. How come every single person on the Waynwood thread understood that the whole thread was based around 'IF' there was a brother?

Right and when they told you how ridiculous your suggestion your suggestion was you argued that you were right and they were wrong. Yeesh.

Quote

littkedragon I once thought you were possibly a smart guy but just a tad stubborn which is understandable in men. God knows I am. But the comments you are making now. I'm sorry but they show you as a bitter, childish... Well I could go on but if I am honest, there's thousands of fun posts in this forum I could be directing my attention to so I'll leave you in your own world.

 lol how am I bitter? What exactly have I said to make you think I am bitter? It is a message forum, clearly we are both enjoying this discussion otherwise we would not be continuing it.

Quote

 

I hope you take the stick out your ass mate and lighten up, and remember. You do NOT know everything.

Take it easy. 

Never claimed I did know everything. Pointing out ridiculous theories is not a sign of knowing anything.

Sorry if someone challenging your theories is so upsetting to you. If you don't want people discussing them then just say so rather than getting so sensitive about it.

 

[lordstewie]

the only person who could reveal with certainty that Alayne is Sansa, is the Mastiff
if it is not dead, or Brienne
It is not enough that it can look like tully or his word

[Macgregor of the North]

On 3 April 2016 at 2:08 AM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Right and when they told you how ridiculous your suggestion your suggestion was you argued that you were right and they were wrong. Yeesh.

 lol how am I bitter? What exactly have I said to make you think I am bitter? It is a message forum, clearly we are both enjoying this discussion otherwise we would not be continuing it.

Never claimed I did know everything. Pointing out ridiculous theories is not a sign of knowing anything.

Sorry if someone challenging your theories is so upsetting to you. If you don't want people discussing them then just say so rather than getting so sensitive about it.

 

Just saw this now. Sorry about wait. 

What ridiculous theory did you point out on this thread? I was curious to know?

This thread was aimed at LF's story being shown as not watertight. That worked. Job done.

There were ridiculous theories pointed out mind you but it fell to me to point them out, and they came from you mate. 

Sansa wearing WF Colours, nope, false.

Sansa being surrounded by WF guards, nope, false.

Ned got Sansa a 'special exact seat somewhere', nope, false. 

Sansa sat at the Royal dais beside Jofferey, nope, false again. 

These four examples are what shows you as the type you are buddy, sorry but it's true. It's classic examples of the arrogant demeanour of a person who thinks he knows absolutely everything, that he himself is above research lol. Well I'm glad I do mine so I could keep you on the right track because let's face it, no matter how much posts you have, how much re reads you have done. Nobody knows it all mate. 

So next time you come on my threads, and please do as discussing these books is brilliant and I'm glad this forum is around because the topic is truly great, but next time you come on, please bring facts and leave your arrogant know it all technique at the front door mate, it ain't welcome and only wastes time lol. If I hadn't had to keep you right all those times, we could have been using that time for better discussions. Also, I dread to think how silly this post would have looked had I believed the four examples I mentioned. What a couple of amateurs we would have both looked lol!. In any event though, I do my research, and you should to especially if being seen to know it all is that important to you which it clearly is. I mean it takes seconds to fire up a search of ice and fire doesn't it?.

So next time on the threads take the time to come with facts and the experience will be better for us mate. 

I'll have another thread soon no doubt. I actually put up another one on Nysterica as I think I've found a comment in the books that may show she is out of her penitents cell, but it never caught fire sadly. Ah well, it happens. 

[sweetsunray]

On 30-3-2016 at 4:34 PM, daccu65 said:

That's one way to look at it, I agree. 

Another way to consider it is this:  Littlefinger returns home on his way to the Erie and Lysa doesn't even wait to assemble the lords to witness the wedding, as would be expected of a woman of her station.  Littlefinger is suddenly in a very high leadership position in the Vale...a position that several prominent Vale Lords were vying for.  He also brings along a very lovely young woman who he claims is his bastard daughter.  I think there are already going to be suspicions, wondering if Alayne isn't really his mistress.  Then comes Lysa's murder, the lords are going to be even more suspicious and Yohn Royce even thought he recognized her. 

Okay, the only problem is that even when LF isn't in the Eyrie, Alayne is surrounded by people that are, in theory, loyal to LF.  If you try some discreet questioning, will a servant show up and interrupt?  What's the earliest time that someone can catch her away from the Eyrie's staff?  On the narrow trail down from the Eyrie!  By the time this trip takes place, she's betrothed to the apparent heir, which makes finding out things even more important! 

While I agree that a lot of Randy's conversation seemed vapid and gossipy, there were several fairly pointed questions, as well.  In addition, I think that there are several instances, both before the conversation with Randy and during it, where Sansa has given away her identity.  As a result, I believe that as of the end of ADwD, Nestor and Randy know who she is.  The only things I don't know is how much information they have shared with other Vale Lords, what they intend on doing with the information, and if LF intended them to figure out the mystery.  In a way, Sansa's identity seems similar to the trail of breadcrumbs he fed Ned in KL, to keep him in place.

I don't want to be argumentative, I'm looking forward to seeing which of us is closer to the truth.

I don't disagree that Myranda's fishing for fake identity of Sansa. She is. I'm just saying that her motivation to check out Alayne comes from the betrothal with Harry.

I don't really buy the "she's around servants" otherwise as a motivation not to come sooner. Brune may be her bodyguard, but he's not walking 5 steps behind her everywhere she goes at the Eyrie either. And at the Gates she's often together with Randa, without a servant interrupting them.

I don't believe in the notion that Nestor will out Sansa for Lysa's murder. LF's explanation that Nestor won't rock the boat, because LF's signature is on the document that makes the Gates of the Moon Nestor's permanent seat. Did he aspire to become Lord of the Vale through marriage with Lysa? Sure. Is he ambituous? Sure. Well he got a castle his family were only stewards of as a permanent ruling seat. Outing Sansa and LF would not make him Lord of the Vale (he's a cadet branch of the Royces), and would make him lose the Gates. Nestor would have nothing and neither would have his son.

That's why it was put to rest and that Randa had no motivation to find out more about Alayne, before the betrothal to Harry. Instead, Nestor attempted to broker a marriage between Randa and HtH, something Randa wanted very much obviously. The news comes that Alayne is conditionally betrothed to HtH. This probably did piss off Nestor, especially since he's not in any position to do something about it. But Randa goes up to stir trouble - put HtH in a bad light, assess her rival, befriend her rival. Yes, her questions regarding Alayn's breast size and age is about her identity.

But in this I would follow Varys and Illyrio's logic: first they were thieves, then they stole secrets, but eventually they went on to discover secrets but left them where they found them, for blackmail, or for some possible future use.

Alayne's identity is of secondary interest to them, rather than primary interest, that might be useful if the right circumstances arise. Ousting Sansa publically is stupid - they'd lose everything, and HtH would not mind marrying a possible heir of WF. If they wish to get rid of her, they'd have to go about it differently... for example inform the Mad Mouse behind closed doors that Alayne is Sansa. That way the Vale wouldn't be the wiser that Sansa was with them (and the Vale has been itching to fight for the Starks and Tullys from the get-go, with only Lysa and LF stopping them). That way Cersei will call LF a traitor and take away his titles and powers, without Nestor Royce losing the Gates... and HtH is free to marry another again.

Accusing Alayne of murder of Lysa and LF's complicity in it would be the biggest mistake Nestor and Randa could ever make. They'd hack their own limbs off that way. They'd get nothing.  

[daccu65]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't disagree that Myranda's fishing for fake identity of Sansa. She is. I'm just saying that her motivation to check out Alayne comes from the betrothal with Harry.

I don't really buy the "she's around servants" otherwise as a motivation not to come sooner. Brune may be her bodyguard, but he's not walking 5 steps behind her everywhere she goes at the Eyrie either. And at the Gates she's often together with Randa, without a servant interrupting them.

I don't believe in the notion that Nestor will out Sansa for Lysa's murder. LF's explanation that Nestor won't rock the boat, because LF's signature is on the document that makes the Gates of the Moon Nestor's permanent seat. Did he aspire to become Lord of the Vale through marriage with Lysa? Sure. Is he ambituous? Sure. Well he got a castle his family were only stewards of as a permanent ruling seat. Outing Sansa and LF would not make him Lord of the Vale (he's a cadet branch of the Royces), and would make him lose the Gates. Nestor would have nothing and neither would have his son.

That's why it was put to rest and that Randa had no motivation to find out more about Alayne, before the betrothal to Harry. Instead, Nestor attempted to broker a marriage between Randa and HtH, something Randa wanted very much obviously. The news comes that Alayne is conditionally betrothed to HtH. This probably did piss off Nestor, especially since he's not in any position to do something about it. But Randa goes up to stir trouble - put HtH in a bad light, assess her rival, befriend her rival. Yes, her questions regarding Alayn's breast size and age is about her identity.

But in this I would follow Varys and Illyrio's logic: first they were thieves, then they stole secrets, but eventually they went on to discover secrets but left them where they found them, for blackmail, or for some possible future use.

Alayne's identity is of secondary interest to them, rather than primary interest, that might be useful if the right circumstances arise. Ousting Sansa publically is stupid - they'd lose everything, and HtH would not mind marrying a possible heir of WF. If they wish to get rid of her, they'd have to go about it differently... for example inform the Mad Mouse behind closed doors that Alayne is Sansa. That way the Vale wouldn't be the wiser that Sansa was with them (and the Vale has been itching to fight for the Starks and Tullys from the get-go, with only Lysa and LF stopping them). That way Cersei will call LF a traitor and take away his titles and powers, without Nestor Royce losing the Gates... and HtH is free to marry another again.

Accusing Alayne of murder of Lysa and LF's complicity in it would be the biggest mistake Nestor and Randa could ever make. They'd hack their own limbs off that way. They'd get nothing.  

I believe you misunderstand me.  I am not saying that Randy/Nestor may sell out Sansa for Lysa's murder; I am saying that Randy/Nestor may sell out Sansa for being wanted as a possible accomplice in King Joffrey's murder. 

First, I believe that Randy had said earlier that the messenger ravens aren't kept in the Eyrie; they're kept at the GOM, and the messages are shuttled to and from the Eyrie.  This means that very shortly after Joff's murder, Nestor and Randy knew that Sansa Stark, the wife of the man accused of murdering Joff and niece to Lady Lysa, had disappeared.  I don't think that the GOM Royce family is going to keep this a secret, so pretty much all the Vale notables will quickly know that Sansa has vanished and her only known, free family is her Aunt Lysa.  Now, just a couple of weeks after Sansa vanishes LF, who happens to be on the small council, shows up with a young woman that nobody has ever heard of before, who happens to be approximately the same age as the fugitive.  The Vale notables are already suspicious. 

Certainly, Randy and Nestor are upset that LF has maneuvered his mystery daughter into the marriage that they wanted for Randy.  Certainly, both of them are going to want to know more about her.  However, this goes beyond Vale and Royce Family politics; if this woman turns out to be Sansa, they'll be harboring a wanted fugitive under their own roof!  For this reason, they wanted to be able to confirm Sansa's identity with nobody to interrupt the questioning session and nobody to know that they had figured it out.  Mya was in on the scheme; don't you think it a little odd that Mya arranged the traveling parties so that little Robert, the Heir to the Vale, was on the trail with no guards?

I agree that there's no way Nestor and Randy are going to out Sansa for Lysa's murder; the risks are too great, the rewards too small, the evidence too slim.  However, Sansa's identity gives them additional options, should they choose to pursue them:

They could turn her over to the Crown for questioning (at least!) for her role in Joff's death.  This would result in monetary and/or political reward.

They could turn over LF as sheltering this fugitive from the crown; freeing up the position of Lord Protector to one of the Vale Lords.

They could annul Sansa's betrothal, as she is legally married to Tyrion and he hasn't been confirmed dead.  This puts Harry back 'in play'. 

I'm not saying that Randy or Nestor will sell out Sansa; rather I'm saying that she's in a great deal of danger that it will happen.  Not as a scapegoat in Lysa's murder, but due to her accomplice status in Joffrey's. 

[Nevets]

Another potential tactic Myranda could use would be to use her knowledge of Sansa's identity to pressure Sansa into not pursuing Harry with any vigor, essentially causing the betrothal to collapse because of lack of interest or action on Sansa's part.  I agree that it would be foolish and short-sighted of Myranda and Nestor to expose her identity at this time, but using it to their advantage does seem likely, and trying to break the betrothal makes sense, especially if Myranda wants him and Sansa is not really all that interested in the first place (and I don't think that she is).  That also leaves their options open, including the possibility of supporting her in the future if that looks like the best course of action.

[daccu65]

13 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Another potential tactic Myranda could use would be to use her knowledge of Sansa's identity to pressure Sansa into not pursuing Harry with any vigor, essentially causing the betrothal to collapse because of lack of interest or action on Sansa's part.  I agree that it would be foolish and short-sighted of Myranda and Nestor to expose her identity at this time, but using it to their advantage does seem likely, and trying to break the betrothal makes sense, especially if Myranda wants him and Sansa is not really all that interested in the first place (and I don't think that she is).  That also leaves their options open, including the possibility of supporting her in the future if that looks like the best course of action.

And would you agree that Randy and/or Nestor would want to keep the number of people who know Sansa's identity to a minimum?  Hence, arranging the questioning to take place away from potential witnesses...like on the mountain trail?

 

[Nevets]

4 minutes ago, daccu65 said:

And would you agree that Randy and/or Nestor would want to keep the number of people who know Sansa's identity to a minimum?  Hence, arranging the questioning to take place away from potential witnesses...like on the mountain trail?

 

At this point they are quite likely to keep their cards quite close to the vest, so I agree with you there.  And I also think that the betrothal was likely the triggering event, and the mountain trail is a perfect opportunity to ask questions without anyone else becoming suspicious regarding the line of questioning or the answers given.

It also occurred to me that Myranda could insinuate that others, Lady Waynwood, for example, have also figured out her identity, and that her claim on Winterfell is the reason Lady Waynwood agreed to the betrothal.  There are many ways she could use her knowledge without it necessarily being a threat; or at least not an open one.

[daccu65]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

At this point they are quite likely to keep their cards quite close to the vest, so I agree with you there.  And I also think that the betrothal was likely the triggering event, and the mountain trail is a perfect opportunity to ask questions without anyone else becoming suspicious regarding the line of questioning or the answers given.

For some, inexplicable reason, your post made me start thinking of just how powerful a marriage prospect Sansa happens to be...and perhaps Littlefinger's ultimate plan for her.  I'm of the opinion that LF is convinced that the Lannisters are about to lose royal power.  Should the Lannister's lose their influence (say, in an upcoming conflict with the Tyrells) Could this be LF's plan? 

First, I can imagine him making the following pitch to several lords in the Riverlands:  "I know you hate the Freys for the Red Wedding; you hate the Lannisters for their bannermen ravaging your lands.  Yet here you sit, with a Frey/Lannister couple ruling from Riverrun.  Poor, late Hoster Tully's only living child is a Lannister hostage and his only living sibling is an outlaw.  What's a good, loyal family in the Riverlands supposed to do?  Well, do I have a deal for you!  I happen to have a Royal Decree, declaring me the Lord Paramount of the Trident.  Not only that, I happen to have the only known, living descendant of Hoster Tully, Sansa Stark!  For the right price, and I'm willing to accept a combination of money or political influence, I'll name you the Lord Paramount of the Trident and break Sansa's current betrothal, in favor of whomever you want her to marry!  Imagine your eldest son, named Lord of the Riverlands and married to Hoster Tully's last living descendant!  Don't be shy, make me an offer!"

At the same time, he could be making this offer to some northern lords: "Oh, how the north has fallen into rough times!  The Frey family, who slaughtered so many of your good men by abusing Guests' Right, is now in open alliance with the Boltons, who now hold Winterfell and lord over you.  What's going to happen when Roose passes away?  Why, you'll be ruled by the cruel, unstable Ramsay!  Why, this man is such a beast that poor Arya Stark, his wife, cries herself to sleep every night.  What's a good, loyal northman to do about all of this?  Do you remember the stability that the Stark family gave you?  Of course you do, the north remembers!  I feel so sorry for you that memory isn't good enough.  You need something better than memories to bring back better times.  Well, do I have a deal for you!  It just so happens that I have Sansa Stark living under my roof, under my protection!  Not only that, I have proof that the Arya Roose is married to is actually a whore from one of my brothels!  For the right price, I'll grant Sansa's hand in marriage to the good man of your choice!  Just to sweeten the deal, I'll give you the false Arya's real name and her former profession!  Imagine the Boltons and Freys, trying to maintain their station with this evidence!  Make me your best offer but don't hesitate, Sansa is betrothed to marry a Vale Lord and after that, you're on your own!

Finally, let's say that little Robert Arynn dies of a seizure.  Now, LF makes the spiel to the Vale Lords:  "Poor Jon Arryn, a good man who's line is now gone from this world.  Not only are Jon and Robert gone, gods rest their souls, the lady Lysa Arryn is also gone.  I guess Harry Hardyng is now the Lord of the Vale...or is he?  The issue could be in doubt, as I was Lady Lysa's husband and she declared me Lord Protector of the Vale.  I'm not married, but if I were to marry one of your good daughters and sire a son, would the Lord Protector of the Vale be Harry or my son?  You know, wars have been fought over less and in my short time here, I've made some friends who benefit from be being right where I'm at.  Now, nobody wants a civil war and I'm perfectly willing to step aside in the interests of peace prosperity...but don't you all think that I'm due something for my sacrifice?  Well, what if I tell you that my daughter, Alayne, isn't actually my daughter?  She's really Sansa Stark, the late Lady Lysa's niece!  In the interest of peace and order, I had already betrothed her to Harry, but that was when Sweetrobin was still alive and I thought I could serve as Lord Protector, drawing a modest income, as long as the dear boy lived.  Now, it pains me to admit that I have to look towards my own future and if I let this marriage go forward, it will cement Harry's legacy but leave me without any dependable income!  I know it's wretched of me to say so, but I've had offers from both the Riverlands and the North, interested in Sansa's hand and well, I want to give her to the Vale but I still have to look out for my upkeep in my waning years!  What kind of compensation do you think I deserve?"

Could this be LF's plan, to sell Sansa's pedigree to the highest bidder?

 

[Nevets]

48 minutes ago, daccu65 said:

For some, inexplicable reason, your post made me start thinking of just how powerful a marriage prospect Sansa happens to be...and perhaps Littlefinger's ultimate plan for her.  I'm of the opinion that LF is convinced that the Lannisters are about to lose royal power.  Should the Lannister's lose their influence (say, in an upcoming conflict with the Tyrells) Could this be LF's plan? 

First, I can imagine him making the following pitch to several lords in the Riverlands:  "I know you hate the Freys for the Red Wedding; you hate the Lannisters for their bannermen ravaging your lands.  Yet here you sit, with a Frey/Lannister couple ruling from Riverrun.  Poor, late Hoster Tully's only living child is a Lannister hostage and his only living sibling is an outlaw.  What's a good, loyal family in the Riverlands supposed to do?  Well, do I have a deal for you!  I happen to have a Royal Decree, declaring me the Lord Paramount of the Trident.  Not only that, I happen to have the only known, living descendant of Hoster Tully, Sansa Stark!  For the right price, and I'm willing to accept a combination of money or political influence, I'll name you the Lord Paramount of the Trident and break Sansa's current betrothal, in favor of whomever you want her to marry!  Imagine your eldest son, named Lord of the Riverlands and married to Hoster Tully's last living descendant!  Don't be shy, make me an offer!"

At the same time, he could be making this offer to some northern lords: "Oh, how the north has fallen into rough times!  The Frey family, who slaughtered so many of your good men by abusing Guests' Right, is now in open alliance with the Boltons, who now hold Winterfell and lord over you.  What's going to happen when Roose passes away?  Why, you'll be ruled by the cruel, unstable Ramsay!  Why, this man is such a beast that poor Arya Stark, his wife, cries herself to sleep every night.  What's a good, loyal northman to do about all of this?  Do you remember the stability that the Stark family gave you?  Of course you do, the north remembers!  I feel so sorry for you that memory isn't good enough.  You need something better than memories to bring back better times.  Well, do I have a deal for you!  It just so happens that I have Sansa Stark living under my roof, under my protection!  Not only that, I have proof that the Arya Roose is married to is actually a whore from one of my brothels!  For the right price, I'll grant Sansa's hand in marriage to the good man of your choice!  Just to sweeten the deal, I'll give you the false Arya's real name and her former profession!  Imagine the Boltons and Freys, trying to maintain their station with this evidence!  Make me your best offer but don't hesitate, Sansa is betrothed to marry a Vale Lord and after that, you're on your own!

Finally, let's say that little Robert Arynn dies of a seizure.  Now, LF makes the spiel to the Vale Lords:  "Poor Jon Arryn, a good man who's line is now gone from this world.  Not only are Jon and Robert gone, gods rest their souls, the lady Lysa Arryn is also gone.  I guess Harry Hardyng is now the Lord of the Vale...or is he?  The issue could be in doubt, as I was Lady Lysa's husband and she declared me Lord Protector of the Vale.  I'm not married, but if I were to marry one of your good daughters and sire a son, would the Lord Protector of the Vale be Harry or my son?  You know, wars have been fought over less and in my short time here, I've made some friends who benefit from be being right where I'm at.  Now, nobody wants a civil war and I'm perfectly willing to step aside in the interests of peace prosperity...but don't you all think that I'm due something for my sacrifice?  Well, what if I tell you that my daughter, Alayne, isn't actually my daughter?  She's really Sansa Stark, the late Lady Lysa's niece!  In the interest of peace and order, I had already betrothed her to Harry, but that was when Sweetrobin was still alive and I thought I could serve as Lord Protector, drawing a modest income, as long as the dear boy lived.  Now, it pains me to admit that I have to look towards my own future and if I let this marriage go forward, it will cement Harry's legacy but leave me without any dependable income!  I know it's wretched of me to say so, but I've had offers from both the Riverlands and the North, interested in Sansa's hand and well, I want to give her to the Vale but I still have to look out for my upkeep in my waning years!  What kind of compensation do you think I deserve?"

Could this be LF's plan, to sell Sansa's pedigree to the highest bidder?

 

I see many problems with these plans.  The biggest one is that it requires Sansa's cooperation.  She is neither his daughter or ward, so he has no actual authority over her.  Specifically, he has no ability to marry her off to anyone, let alone the highest bidder, unless Sansa goes along.  And I think at this point that she is smart enough and experienced enough that that could be an obstacle, because I do not think she is willing to be a pawn in other peoples' schemes any longer.

Other Difficulties:

Riverlands: Lord Paramount is not a transferable position.  If Littlefinger abandons it, it goes back to the crown to do with as it wishes.  Also, if the Lannisters lose power, his decree will be about as useful as toilet paper.  And the problem with the Riverlands is not that it is being run from Riverrun by Emmon and his Lannister wife, it is that nobody at all is in charge, resulting in a state of anarchy and chaos.  "Why don't you put you own bony little ass in Harrenhal, you lazy asshole?"

North:  "Arya" isn't crying herself to sleep any more.  She is in Stannis's camp and likely headed elsewhere in short order.  

Most likely Castle Black and from there on to Braavos, with Justin Massey and Tycho Nestoris.  

 There is no chance she returns to Winterfell.  Jeyne Poole will cheerfully impale herself on someone's sword before returning to Ramsay.

As for telling the Northern lords who Jeyne Poole is, two problems.   First:  "Why should we believe you.  It's not as if you have a sterling reputation for honesty and truthfulness."  Or, "We know and don't really care.  Makes her our puppet.  Why should we take yours instead?"  Second problem?:  Littlefinger - "Her name is Jeyne Poole and she is a whore from my brothel."  Sansa - " You put Jeyne to work in your brothel??!!?!.  Why you little !@#$%^&*!."

I have doubts about the Vale, as well.  Just like I am uncertain that marrying Sansa to Harry is really his plan right now.  I think he has something up his sleeve, but no idea what.

[Bea Noleto]

On 30/03/2016 at 1:18 AM, My_Half_Groat said:

 

On 01/04/2016 at 3:26 AM, My_Half_Groat said:

good point about Cat being there recently. I'm sure that there are people there who remember Lysa from when she was young. correct me if I'm wrong though; wasn't Cat much prettier than Lysa and isn't Sansa supposed to be prettier than even Cat ever was? it just seems to me that their hair is the only thing we hear of that could MAYBE be called "the Tully look" and apparently Cat had a more beautiful face (I'm assuming) than Lysa and that Sansa is more beautiful than Cat was... I just don't think Sansa and Lysa looked alike (when the hair is taken out of the equation)

having said all that, I simply disagree that there is any sort of Tully look in general. what I don't disagree with is that Alayne's background story will not hold up to scrutiny. but as others have pointed out: anyone looking close enough to scrutinize has enough curiosity that a more fleshed out backstory wouldn't be much of a deterrent.

 

I always thought that Lysa was not uglier than Cat per se, it is just that she was younger and looked more childsh, and being compared to her older sister, with a woman's look as criteria of "beautiful" was not favorable to her, and she was probably held as worse in general towards Cat, which can make a kid gloomy, and look uglier for that.  It is pure speculation, of course, but it is not absurd, because we have the example of another pair of older/more beautiful sister and a younger/uglier sister, Sansa and Arya. She thinks she has nothing left to herself, because Sansa has been given it all, she can't be praised at anything because she will never be as accomplished as her older sister, and doesn't matter that she is younger and less experienced. And according to Cat, Arya could be just as beautiful as Sansa if she would just dress and brush her hair better (could be just a mother's opinion), but here we still get a younger daughter who is judged by a standard based on the older. The difference is that Lysa was stuck in the jealousy and would only want what Cat had, while Arya, in GOT decided that she would try to create her own path and leave her sister's shadow.

Anyway, two relatives can look alike even if one is prettier than the other and Cat's observation while in the Eyrie could be GRRM making possible for some people to recognise Alayne as Sansa. So far she still a bastard, but if the plans LF are telling us are real, Alayne will be more than that very soon, people will pay attention and it is possible that there wil be a resemblance.

 

[Lady Lia]

Catelyn remembers the young Lysa as slender and lovely. Jaime considered the young Catelyn more interesting than Lysa, but not prettier. I think Lysa just aged badly.