Heresy 184

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, e1kabong said:

I believe Balerion died of old age at around 200 years.

Most kind, I think we can safely assume that unless House Targaryen were carrying around a 3,000 year old skull as a family totem, Tyrion was talking mince.

[Arry'sFleas]

12 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Most kind, I think we can safely assume that unless House Targaryen were carrying around a 3,000 year old skull as a family totem, Tyrion was talking mince.

what to make of Davos the Dragonslayer mentioned in the world book, the Reach: the Gardener Kings? I don't have the Book to work our when he would have lived.

[Arry'sFleas]

7 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out. Dance, Prologue

A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on,

 

It seems that when Thistle spits their tongue out, Varamyr is still within her even though he had only 'half a heart beat to glory': 'She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body '.

 

I am not sure how to take the second quote, whether their hearts stands for V6 and Thistle's or just the ravens, elk and d-wolf.

 

Varamyr succeeded in his abomination, but depending on the interpretation of the quotes, he could be still in her. That would leave us with a wolf skinchanging a wight.

 

 

[Armstark]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Most kind, I think we can safely assume that unless House Targaryen were carrying around a 3,000 year old skull as a family totem, Tyrion was talking mince.

I think it is safe to assume that Tyrion knows much more about dragons than the reader does, he has read all the books while we have to make due with anecdotes and half remembered Targaryen family traditions.

 

Remember that he was obsessed with dragons in his youth and is a critical thinker who would question unreasonable claims. And yet he proclaims 3000 years as fact.

[Armstark]

8 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

Kind of on this subject, I think the old gods are dead. To state it in a different way, Death is the old powers. Or maybe the escape of death would be more true. Instead of moving on, those that die are held in a second life within another host. In wolf or bird or tree there is potential to recycle the soul.

Yes, this is exactly what I was alluding to.

[Arry'sFleas]

Sorry if i cover old grounds, but let me push the Old Gods thought a little more

But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

We discussed that these dead children are the Old Gods.

 

Then you mention that the Children extracted blood money for the Peace with the FM.

 

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In the first place there's the heretical suggestion that after the last of the 13 heroes cried pax that was when the Pact was agreed. Its noticeable that precious little help [ok, no help] was offered by the tree-huggers until after the last hero found them, yet afterwards we do find the peace and amity spoken of by Maester Luwin - and human sacrifices to the Old Gods. 

As to context if the tree-huggers are associated with Ice, then it makes sense to protect the centre of their power with the Wall, and in the meantime they live side by side with men who give up their sons to the wood, until long afterwords the Andals tool up and liberate Westeros, driving the inhuman children and the other old races behind that last bulwark.

 

Now is there a thought that these sacrifices are needed to keep the Old Gods going? say, 'water' the weirwood roots to keep the lingering going?

 

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Armstark said:

I think it is safe to assume that Tyrion knows much more about dragons than the reader does, he has read all the books while we have to make due with anecdotes and half remembered Targaryen family traditions.

 

Remember that he was obsessed with dragons in his youth and is a critical thinker who would question unreasonable claims. And yet he proclaims 3000 years as fact.

Still not buying it.

If its not simply down to GRRM being careless a 3,000 year old dragon skull is still in what passes for recorded history in Westeros - and it aint. GRRM was talking about the land of long long ago, not that recently.

So either GRRM/Tyrion just slipped, or it was a Targaryen dragon skull they had carted around with them for generations as some kind of totem or status symbol, or if it really was a Westerosi dragon  it was an Ice Dragon and so far as we know they melt, so I'm sticking with the first alternative and at the same time holding that when GRRM said there were once dragons in Westeros long long ago, they were indeed Ice Dragons. 

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

Then you mention that the Children extracted blood money for the Peace with the FM.

Now is there a thought that these sacrifices are needed to keep the Old Gods going? say, 'water' the weirwood roots to keep the lingering going?

 

I think the short answer is yes. In the first place we have the stories of blood sacrifices in the north as recently as 300 years ago, and then there's also the curious matter of the faces on the weirwood trees and in particular in that grove to the north of Castle Black where there are smiling faces and serene faces, angry faces and screaming faces, suggesting that the trees may assume the faces of those sacrificed to them.

[Eli Stark]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Still not buying it.

If its not simply down to GRRM being careless a 3,000 year old dragon skull is still in what passes for recorded history in Westeros - and it aint. GRRM was talking about the land of long long ago, not that recently.

So either GRRM/Tyrion just slipped, or it was a Targaryen dragon skull they had carted around with them for generations as some kind of totem or status symbol, or if it really was a Westerosi dragon  it was an Ice Dragon and so far as we know they melt, so I'm sticking with the first alternative and at the same time holding that when GRRM said there were once dragons in Westeros long long ago, they were indeed Ice Dragons. 

I always assumed that the Targaryens had kept the skulls of many of the dragons that they and their ancestors rode, dating back as far as 3,000 years.  They would have kept them as treasured family heirlooms and a pretty impressive display of power to those who came to their court.  I never read it as saying that all of them were from Westeros.  I imagine the older ones are dragons that were ridden by ancestors who lived on Dragonstone or elsewhere in Essos.

We shouldn't assume that the oldest of them would have been the biggest of them.  During the most recent 3,000 years of dragon riders who were Targaryens, or their ancestors, Balerion happened to have grown larger than all the others.

So, I doubt that any of the skulls in King's Landings were from an ice dragon.  I do hope that we see some ice dragons.  I just don't think the Targaryens were the ones to have ridden them.

Also, how do get the old emoticons?  Since the update, I only see a very limited selection of them available.

[Melifeather]

Hit the smiley face above and a pop up box appears. Look to upper right where it says categories. Select core emoticon group. Scroll to the one you want.

 

 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Eli Stark said:

I always assumed that the Targaryens had kept the skulls of many of the dragons that they and their ancestors rode, dating back as far as 3,000 years.  They would have kept them as treasured family heirlooms and a pretty impressive display of power to those who came to their court.  I never read it as saying that all of them were from Westeros.  I imagine the older ones are dragons that were ridden by ancestors who lived on Dragonstone or elsewhere in Essos.

We shouldn't assume that the oldest of them would have been the biggest of them.  During the most recent 3,000 years of dragon riders who were Targaryens, or their ancestors, Balerion happened to have grown larger than all the others.

So, I doubt that any of the skulls in King's Landings were from an ice dragon.  I do hope that we see some ice dragons.  I just don't think the Targaryens were the ones to have ridden them.

Also, how do get the old emoticons?  Since the update, I only see a very limited selection of them available.

Indeed, if the "oldest skull" does go back 3,000 years then a Targaryen heirloom is the only reasonable explanation. Even then though I have to ask who was counting and or who was recording it; which in itself as I said militates against it being some kind of native Westerosi dragon. 

As to Ice Dragons, as I said I'd suspect it would have melted and yes I'd like to see one in the present story. The eponymous one did after all defeat the [three] fire dragons.

And just as a thought spinning off from that. If the three-fingered tree-huggers [or whoever else might be responsible] can create icy simulacra of humans to fight men, then presumably they could use the same magick to create icy simulacra of dragons to fight Targaryen ones.

[Arry'sFleas]

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think the short answer is yes. In the first place we have the stories of blood sacrifices in the north as recently as 300 years ago, and then there's also the curious matter of the faces on the weirwood trees and in particular in that grove to the north of Castle Black where there are smiling faces and serene faces, angry faces and screaming faces, suggesting that the trees may assume the faces of those sacrificed to them.

reading back in time the Heretics' weirwood discussion in heresy 133, Mithras made the point  that ' the heart trees are subject to mood swings and they can change to look like their owners', which makes sense to me.

He actually stopped the comparisons with the Harrenhal ww, but that one which looked 'hateful and angry' was IMO reflecting Arya's state of mind.

Similarly with the ww grove a few leagues north of CB: 'Some were smiling, some were screaming, some were shouting at him'. I think this reflects the state of mind of the group of NW's men who came to the grove (their feelings towards Jon).

However, if you consider the ww that Sam finds in the village where he met Coldhands (which he later named WhiteTree), he sees a 'face carved into the bone pale trunk was long and sad; red tears of dried sap leaked from its eyes'  which does not quite match his state of mind:  ' Sam prayed, to any god that might be listening '. So in this case I think the face is more likely to be reflecting the mood of the Greenseer/Singer looking thru it; perhaps crying because of the impending fate of Sam?

[Arry'sFleas]

12 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

then presumably they could use the same magick to create icy simulacra of dragons to fight Targaryen ones.

wicked!

[Sly Wren]

18 hours ago, Eli Stark said:

I always assumed that the Targaryens had kept the skulls of many of the dragons that they and their ancestors rode, dating back as far as 3,000 years.  They would have kept them as treasured family heirlooms and a pretty impressive display of power to those who came to their court.  I never read it as saying that all of them were from Westeros.  I imagine the older ones are dragons that were ridden by ancestors who lived on Dragonstone or elsewhere in Essos.

Now this makes a lot of sense, given that they are all in the Red Keep. Unless the Targs went on some dragon skull hunting expedition in Westeros. Which would be an interesting side note. But, keeping the souls of family dragons (like house elves???) makes sense. 

[Sly Wren]

On April 25, 2016 at 0:39 AM, Black Crow said:

Ah, I see what you mean now. It may be Symeon on the outside but not on the inside.

YUP!

Bran specifically cites the Symeon story as a way for him (Bran) to be a knight even without legs. He says he could fight if Hodor held him. But Luwin insists that a knight must be one with his entire body. 

Bran's already done the "dual fighter" thing in Summer. If he took over a wight--a wight would end up with Bran's knightly intent. Seeing for Bran. Fighting for Bran. Simeon Star Eyes. 

[Eli Stark]

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Hit the smiley face above and a pop up box appears. Look to upper right where it says categories. Select core emoticon group. Scroll to the one you want.

 

 

Hey, thanks! 

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

reading back in time the Heretics' weirwood discussion in heresy 133, Mithras made the point  that ' the heart trees are subject to mood swings and they can change to look like their owners', which makes sense to me.

He actually stopped the comparisons with the Harrenhal ww, but that one which looked 'hateful and angry' was IMO reflecting Arya's state of mind.

Similarly with the ww grove a few leagues north of CB: 'Some were smiling, some were screaming, some were shouting at him'. I think this reflects the state of mind of the group of NW's men who came to the grove (their feelings towards Jon).

However, if you consider the ww that Sam finds in the village where he met Coldhands (which he later named WhiteTree), he sees a 'face carved into the bone pale trunk was long and sad; red tears of dried sap leaked from its eyes'  which does not quite match his state of mind:  ' Sam prayed, to any god that might be listening '. So in this case I think the face is more likely to be reflecting the mood of the Greenseer/Singer looking thru it; perhaps crying because of the impending fate of Sam?

Its an interesting. idea but I think people would be inclined to notice if the face changed, especially given that they are assumed to be carved and therefore fixed

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

wicked!

Aint it just.

And once again we come back to the old heretical joke that rather than the [Targaryen] dragons saving Westeros from the Others it will be the Others who save Westeros from the dragons.

After all do we really think that dragons are a good thing?

[Matthew.]

Dragons are neither good nor bad, they're merely apex predators - with a little extra magical oomph - following their instincts; a predator that can be domesticated. Whether they're good or bad in the story is a relative thing--relative to whether or not Dany likes you, or wants to destroy you, that is. If Dany decides it's a good idea to recreate the Field of Fire on the wight horde, then I suppose Westeros won't be too put off by their return.

Incidentally, it's not an uncommon suggestion that bringing back(?) or raising an ice dragon is the ultimate purpose of Jon's speculative mixed heritage.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Dragons are neither good nor bad, they're merely apex predators - with a little extra magical oomph - following their instincts; a predator that can be domesticated. Whether they're good or bad in the story is a relative thing--relative to whether or not Dany likes you, or wants to destroy you, that is. If Dany decides it's a good idea to recreate the Field of Fire on the wight horde, then I suppose Westeros won't be too put off by their return.
 

I wouldn't necessarily describe dragons as evil [although I do have my doubts] but I still don't see them as a good thing, "domesticated" or otherwise