Heresy 184

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

and the saga is full of legends recounted by Old Nan's and Mum's, just like in our current world.

I guess the question really is how humans (and other old races such as giants) did survive the 'Others' invasion during the LN, which brings us back to the Battle for the Dawn: what was it?

Being one for the simple explanations I'd be inclined to say that while the weather may have been generally awful the full effect probably didn't extend beyond the Neck. After all its strongly emphasised how sparsely populated the North is by comparison with the other kingdoms.

As to the Battle for the Dawn, I'd say that there was a battle and there's certainly a song, but like the Battle of Sowerby Bridge referenced earlier I'd strongly suspect it was a pretty small affair which like Topsy has "grewed" over the centuries. And as to what was it?

Try this one:

The term Others is obscuring the inhuman three-fingered tree-huggers, who use their magic to bring down the Long Night, create the white walkers and raise the legions of dead. The 13 heroes set out Parsifal-like to find the tree-huggers, but in the end only one of them makes it and cries Pax. The Winter has probably run its course by now, but the tree-huggers agree to lift the magic animating the wights and thus leaving the walkers desperately outnumbered and needing to do a runner next time they encounter an army [and not necessarily a big army] of men.

[Black Crow]

And just for giggles, GRRM has said in the past there were dragons in Westeros as elsewhere, but the happy thought occurs to me that he probably wasn't referencing the fire-breathing Targaryen type at all. There are no Westerosi legends of them at all and certainly not a whisper from Old Nan.

However there are stories of Ice Dragons and whether we will ever see one or not, I suggest that when GRRM spoke of there once being dragons in Westeros, he mean Ice Dragons, not Fire Dragons. This is after all the Song of Ice and Fire.

[Arry'sFleas]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

No, there's an absence of evidence in the lack of references to dodgy seasons before it happened, which isn't proof in itself by any means, but GRRM's statement that there is a magical cause strongly points to the Long Night. This, as I recall, came about in the context of theories that the seasons were down to an eliptical orbit or some similar astronomical phenomenon. No says GRRM its down to magic, and that in turn means an initiating event. It may not have been the Long Night and indeed its possible that the Hammer upset things in strange and mysterious ways of which the Night was an inadvertent one. However as we're talking about weather I think it more likely it was the Long Night which kicked everything off.

 

one cataclysmic event, LN or Hammer or else, could cause the 'magic' which messed up the seasons and is keeping them out of sync; a subsequent event of some magnitude could release this magic.

 

[Armstark]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And just for giggles, GRRM has said in the past there were dragons in Westeros as elsewhere, but the happy thought occurs to me that he probably wasn't referencing the fire-breathing Targaryen type at all. There are no Westerosi legends of them at all and certainly not a whisper from Old Nan.

 

Eh, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Old Crackbones and Galladon the Perfect Knight say hello, so you remember their dragon-slaying exploits in the future

We also have solid evidence of their existence:

 

There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old;

 

 

[Armstark]

7 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

I have seen the quote before and true: 'made of ice' is not quite the same as 'made from ice'.

It still puzzles me that Grenn who was a first hand witness both at the Fist battle with the wights and at the WW encounter in the forest should still lump them together, refer Sam's remark in SoS, Sam II:

"Yes," said Sam, "but is it the cold that brings the wights, or the wights that bring the cold?"

"Who cares?" Grenn's axe sent wood chips flying. "They come together, that's what matters. Hey, now that we know that dragonglass kills them, maybe they won't come at all.

Still, whether made of solid, liquid or mist ice, the purpose of frightening men and perpetuating the legend is achieved.

 

Grenn makes perfect sense if cold=WW, which seems reasonable to me.

 

8 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

i do! clever find. I also like your allusion the Jon Arryn's 'the seed is strong'!

Great! I have to admit though that the "seed is strong" allusion is not mine, I stole it from my reddit thread of the Qyburn theory.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And just for giggles, GRRM has said in the past there were dragons in Westeros as elsewhere, but the happy thought occurs to me that he probably wasn't referencing the fire-breathing Targaryen type at all. There are no Westerosi legends of them at all and certainly not a whisper from Old Nan.

However there are stories of Ice Dragons and whether we will ever see one or not, I suggest that when GRRM spoke of there once being dragons in Westeros, he mean Ice Dragons, not Fire Dragons. This is after all the Song of Ice and Fire.

Yes!!!!  

Tyrion's conversation in Dance about Serwyn of the Mirror shield makes it VERY clear that Serwyn's dragon-killing technique does NOT work on Valyrian fire dragons.

Serwyn's tale is about killing ice dragons--Others. Which explains why Serwyn shows up in every novel, The Hedge Knight, and the World Book. It's a tale with a clue as to how the Others were defeated.

30 minutes ago, Armstark said:

Eh, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Old Crackbones and Galladon the Perfect Knight say hello, so you remember their dragon-slaying exploits in the future

I haven't looked at Crackbones and Galladon in a while. But I stand by my point on Serwyn: the way he killed his dragon--Tyrion and Haldon make it very clear that makes no sense. Something else is up.

32 minutes ago, Armstark said:

We also have solid evidence of their existence:

 

There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old;

Yes--this Tyrion quote is weird: does he mean that the skull is 3,000 years old from the time the dragon died? or from the time the dragon was born? Because:

 

Quote

 

There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old; the youngest a mere century and a half. The most recent were also the smallest; a matched pair no bigger than mastiff's skulls, and oddly misshapen, all that remained of the last two hatchlings born on Dragonstone. They were the last of the Targaryen dragons, perhaps the last dragons anywhere, and they had not lived very long. 

From there the skulls ranged upward in size to the three great monsters of song and story, the dragons that Aegon Targaryen and his sisters had unleashed on the Seven Kingdoms of old. The singers had given them the names of gods: Balerion, Meraxes, Vhaghar. Tyrion had stood between their gaping jaws, wordless and awed. You could have ridden a horse down Vhaghar's gullet, although you would not have ridden it out again. Meraxes was even bigger. And the greatest of them, Balerion, the Black Dread, could have swallowed an aurochs whole, or even one of the hairy mammoths said to roam the cold wastes beyond the Port of Ibsen. Game, Tyrion II.

 

 

Sounds like Balerion is the biggest. And he didn't die 3,000 years before the story starts. And if biggest means oldest (which seems likely since Tyrion says the "most recent were the smallest"), then the 3,000 year quote might just mean that Balerion was assumed to be that old? He was supposedly born in Valyria, etc. 

[Arry'sFleas]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The Winter has probably run its course by now

yes, i agree with that part.

Which leads me to think that the murders of wights would become largely ineffective, and any WW would have to retreat to colder climes.

The Battle for the Dawn is the last skirmish. Agree there too.

But for all their efforts the Children don't seem to have ended up with a good bargain, pushed all the way north even if with a Wall to keep the some of the humans at bay (the Andals?).

 

[Armstark]

10 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes!!!!  

Tyrion's conversation in Dance about Serwyn of the Mirror shield makes it VERY clear that Serwyn's dragon-killing technique does NOT work on Valyrian fire dragons.

Serwyn's tale is about killing ice dragons--Others. Which explains why Serwyn shows up in every novel, The Hedge Knight, and the World Book. It's a tale with a clue as to how the Others were defeated.

I haven't looked at Crackbones and Galladon in a while. But I stand by my point on Serwyn: the way he killed his dragon--Tyrion and Haldon make it very clear that makes no sense. Something else is up.

Yes--this Tyrion quote is weird: does he mean that the skull is 3,000 years old from the time the dragon died? or from the time the dragon was born? Because:

 

 

Sounds like Balerion is the biggest. And he didn't die 3,000 years before the story starts. And if biggest means oldest (which seems likely since Tyrion says the "most recent were the smallest"), then the 3,000 year quote might just mean that Balerion was assumed to be that old? He was supposedly born in Valyria, etc. 

3000 years describing the age of Balerion makes no sense because than the most recent ones would not be described as a century and a half, they would be  under 10 years. No ,the years Tyrion gives are from the time the dragon died to the present.

 

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Armstark said:

Eh, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Old Crackbones and Galladon the Perfect Knight say hello, so you remember their dragon-slaying exploits in the future

We also have solid evidence of their existence:

 

There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old;

 

 

But were they fire dragons? Really really really?

And how long to dragons live if not slain? [serious question, I don't remember]

Assuming said skull really was 3,000 years old that takes us back into the Andal period or just before depending on how badly screwed the timelines are and certainly within reasonable history, yet not a mention of the beasties until the Targaryens tooled up. When GRRM was talking about there once being dragons in Westeros I think he was talking long long ago and rather longer than that.

[Black Crow]

35 minutes ago, Arry'sFleas said:

yes, i agree with that part.

Which leads me to think that the murders of wights would become largely ineffective, and any WW would have to retreat to colder climes.

The Battle for the Dawn is the last skirmish. Agree there too.

But for all their efforts the Children don't seem to have ended up with a good bargain, pushed all the way north even if with a Wall to keep the some of the humans at bay (the Andals?).

 

Not necessarily, it rather depends on timing and context.

In the first place there's the heretical suggestion that after the last of the 13 heroes cried pax that was when the Pact was agreed. Its noticeable that precious little help [ok, no help] was offered by the tree-huggers until after the last hero found them, yet afterwards we do find the peace and amity spoken of by Maester Luwin - and human sacrifices to the Old Gods. 

As to context if the tree-huggers are associated with Ice, then it makes sense to protect the centre of their power with the Wall, and in the meantime they live side by side with men who give up their sons to the wood, until long afterwords the Andals tool up and liberate Westeros, driving the inhuman children and the other old races behind that last bulwark.

[Sly Wren]

27 minutes ago, Armstark said:

3000 years describing the age of Balerion makes no sense because than the most recent ones would not be described as a century and a half, they would be  under 10 years. No ,the years Tyrion gives are from the time the dragon died to the present.

Fair point, ser. 

But that leaves the weirdness of the fact that Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar were so much bigger. They are the biggest in Tyrion's description. So. . . if the 3,000 year old skulls are actually 3,000 years old and dragons--why didn't they get as big? Or has Tyrion been fed a story that isn't accurate? It's hard to tell since he doesn't describe the oldest skulls.

We also have Bran's tour of Bloodraven's cave when he hijacks Hodor. Bran-In-Honor sees skeletons of giant bats hanging from the ceiling. Could these be smaller dragons? Sure. Could they also just be giant bats and tie into some of the symbolism around Harrenhal? Sure. 

But one way or another, fire dragons were not the plague of Westeros. The Others were. And Symeon's story as told by Tyrion and Haldon makes it clear Symeon's fighting technique would not work against a fire dragon.

Something else is up.

[shizett]

8 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

But one way or another, fire dragons were not the plague of Westeros. The Others were. And Symeon's story as told by Tyrion and Haldon makes it clear Symeon's fighting technique would not work against a fire dragon.

Something else is up.

Do we have a timeline when the Others became the problem in Westeros? If anything, I think Serwyn of the Mirror Shield's story is in accordance with Others' capabilities. So, if Ser Merwyn was an Other, this could be the tale of how the Others destroyed fire-breathing dragons of Westeros and became THE local power.

[Black Crow]

10 minutes ago, shizett said:

Do we have a timeline when the Others became the problem in Westeros? If anything, I think Serwyn of the Mirror Shield's story is in accordance with Others' capabilities. So, if Ser Merwyn was an Other, this could be the tale of how the Others destroyed fire-breathing dragons of Westeros and became THE local power.

Rather depends on definitions. Sam rightly comments on how there are stories of knights when there were no knights and we can reasonably infer that as in our own Arthurian legends they were heroes of some description or another who were "knighted" by later chroniclers simply because that was the then contemporary term that best identified their status. The question then revolves around those heroes and what cemented their status and here I'm still very mindful of that business of Symeon and his starry blue eyes; were they really sapphires or did he change?

[Sly Wren]

21 minutes ago, shizett said:

If anything, I think Serwyn of the Mirror Shield's story is in accordance with Others' capabilities. So, if Ser Merwyn was an Other, this could be the tale of how the Others destroyed fire-breathing dragons of Westeros and became THE local power.

Possible. And I agree that the mirror shield sounds like ice--Other technology.

But I think the mirror shield was the Wall--being turned against the Others. Whoever is behind them can no longer see out of the eyes of wights and Others (their eyes emit light--something's up with that). And that might have made them vulnerable.

As for Serwyn's being an Other that defeated dragons, the problem goes back to Tyrion and Haldon's sparring over dragons: they make it clear that the technique doesn't work against fire dragons. And we've seen Rhaegal, Viserion, and Drogon spat with each other--why would they stop if they saw themselves in a mirror? Vanity?

If they attack each other, then wouldn't they just attack the mirrored reflection of a dragon, even their own reflection? 

So, seems like we're being told that Serwyn wasn't fighting a fire dragon.

8 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The question then revolves around those heroes and what cemented their status and here I'm still very mindful of that business of Symeon and his starry blue eyes; were they really sapphires or did he change?

Given that Martin gives us a clear description of a how a living person goes from living to blind body that sees (the thing that was Thistle), I gotta believe Symeon was a wight.

But--if Bran is as strong as he seems to be, and if the wights "see" for whoever is behind them, I'm thinking Bran could take over a wight and use it to fight his way.

Bran first brings up Symeon in the novels as a knight who fought despite his limitations. Bran fights/moves/functions by moving in and out of bodies. So, I think that Symeon could be a knight who wighted and then turned against the Others. . .maybe. As Meera says, "some knights are monsters."

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Possible. And I agree that the mirror shield sounds like ice--Other technology.

But I think the mirror shield was the Wall--being turned against the Others. Whoever is behind them can no longer see out of the eyes of wights and Others (their eyes emit light--something's up with that). And that might have made them vulnerable.

As for Serwyn's being an Other that defeated dragons, the problem goes back to Tyrion and Haldon's sparring over dragons: they make it clear that the technique doesn't work against fire dragons. And we've seen Rhaegal, Viserion, and Drogon spat with each other--why would they stop if they saw themselves in a mirror? Vanity?

If they attack each other, then wouldn't they just attack the mirrored reflection of a dragon, even their own reflection? 

So, seems like we're being told that Serwyn wasn't fighting a fire dragon.

Given that Martin gives us a clear description of a how a living person goes from living to blind body that sees (the thing that was Thistle), I gotta believe Symeon was a wight.

But--if Bran is as strong as he seems to be, and if the wights "see" for whoever is behind them, I'm thinking Bran could take over a wight and use it to fight his way.

Bran first brings up Symeon in the novels as a knight who fought despite his limitations. Bran fights/moves/functions by moving in and out of bodies. So, I think that Symeon could be a knight who wighted and then turned against the Others. . .maybe. As Meera says, "some knights are monsters."

Not necessarily a wight in the sense of a dead man re-animated and controlled by another. I'm more inclined to think of someone undergoing an "ordeal" in order to be admitted to the mysteries and thus granted powers.

We've talked before about sensory deprivation apparently being necessary to open the third eye, and there's also the matter of Arya's being blinded enabling her to see by jumping into the cat. I think Symeon cut a deal with the devil.

[Sly Wren]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Not necessarily a wight in the sense of a dead man re-animated and controlled by another. I'm more inclined to think of someone undergoing an "ordeal" in order to be admitted to the mysteries and thus granted powers.

Very possible.

But the specificity of what Varamyr does to Thistle, in the same book where we have Bran's learning to fly and Jon's pincushion impression makes me think we might see the combo of a skin changer and a wight.

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We've talked before about sensory deprivation apparently being necessary to open the third eye, and there's also the matter of Arya's being blinded enabling her to see by jumping into the cat. I think Symeon cut a deal with the devil.

But isn't that what Varamyr was preparing to do? Says he would be dead, would lose his powers, but he would live and be Thistle. Then, he becomes "abomination" 

Quote

Abomination. Was that her, or him, or Haggon? He never knew. His old flesh fell back into the snowdrift as her fingers loosened. The spearwife twisted violently, shrieking. His shadowcat used to fight him wildly, and the snow bear had gone half-mad for a time, snapping at trees and rocks and empty air, but this was worse. "Get out, get out!" he heard her own mouth shouting. Her body staggered, fell, and rose again, her hands flailed, her legs jerked this way and that in some grotesque dance as his spirit and her own fought for the flesh. She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood. She raised her hands to his face. He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes. Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out. Dance, Prologue

Varamyr was trying to cut a deal with the devil and ended up preparing Thistle to be a wight with no eyes that could see. 

And since Bran is the one who uses Symeon's story as proof that one with physical limitation could succeed at being a knight, I'm thinking he's likely to succeed where Varamyr failed--assuming that Bran is in the same position as whoever is seeing out of Thistle's blind eyes. Then Bran would have a leg up on Varamyr.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

On 4/22/2016 at 10:45 AM, Armstark said:

Destroy the trees and let the dead stay dead. What a bitter choice this would be for Bran to give up flying and become Bran the Broken once again.

Kind of on this subject, I think the old gods are dead. To state it in a different way, Death is the old powers. Or maybe the escape of death would be more true. Instead of moving on, those that die are held in a second life within another host. In wolf or bird or tree there is potential to recycle the soul.

[e1kabong]

12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

But were they fire dragons? Really really really?

And how long to dragons live if not slain? [serious question, I don't remember]

I believe Balerion died of old age at around 200 years.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

Kind of on this subject, I think the old gods are dead. To state it in a different way, Death is the old powers. Or maybe the escape of death would be more true. Instead of moving on, those that die are held in a second life within another host. In wolf or bird or tree there is potential to recycle the soul.

There's an interesting way of putting it, and by extension presumably they would have no qualms about "using" those dead not initiated into their mysteries.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Very possible.

But the specificity of what Varamyr does to Thistle, in the same book where we have Bran's learning to fly and Jon's pincushion impression makes me think we might see the combo of a skin changer and a wight...

Ah, I see what you mean now. It may be Symeon on the outside but not on the inside.