[Spoilers] Jon's death and return is better in the show

[Wendel Shoemaker]

On 5/10/2016 at 3:52 PM, Greg B said:

Yes, as I've said, Jon was thinking of Arya when he met with Tormund, before the letter arrived. After that, you're dismissing what he's actually thinking about ("afterthought"? it's a thought in real-time...) and substituting your own speculation ("not likely to be crucial"). But yes, perhaps going to war against Ramsay is a faster way to help his sister who is presumably on her way to Castle Black than, oh, I don't know, going to look for his sister who is presumably on her way to Castle Black. We don't know if that's what Jon thinks, because he literally isn't thinking about Arya.

I feel like the idea is that the event of his death interrupted his plans, and thus we didn't get to see the rest of his thoughts. The author could have prioitized his thoughts towards Arya at that time, but he didn't. I think it's important to remember that Jon is trying to frame this act as something that is beneficial to the Night's Watch. Ramsay is threatening him, and therefore he says his priority is to take out Ramsay in order to protect Castle Black. Mobilizing for Ramsay would also mobilize them for finding Arya, who they are likely to intersect with on the way to Winterfell. I guess personally I understand that after making a speach about going after for Ramsay, it makes sense that Jon's further thoughts would be how to set forth such plans? Thus thinking about melisandre.

Regardless, it's clear part of his plan is about Arya. And regardless of that point, not sure how it changes the topic at hand? Jon's decision is morally grey here, where you can understand both sides, while with the show it's esssentially Jon the Hero taken down by the evil Night's Watch mutineers. Even down to the actually stabbing, how they have tears in their eyes in the book.

Scene wise, I think it was a more interesting scene in the book due to the chaotic nature of the pink letter and Wun Wun.

 

[Wendel Shoemaker]

On 5/11/2016 at 2:15 AM, Les Météores D said:

Robb and Tywin are more fleshed out in the show than in the books imo, Shireen, Sandor and Cersei have more layers too. I wouldn't say it's better but let's not pretend the show hasn't improved (or try to) a couple of things time to time because they notoriously wasted other iconic characters.

They like to flesh out side characters more, which can sometimes mess with character motivations. Overall, the success of fleshing out more characters has been inconsistent, but handled much better in the first few seasons.

[Vastet]

It was mentioned someone thought it was odd Jon remembered 'nothing' after death. Personally I don't think that odd at all. Ignoring the validity or lack thereof of the religions in this world entirely, I don't see why anyone would be able to recall anything. Memory is stored physically in the brain. Even if there is an afterlife, you'd have to have your brain with you there in order to be able to recall being there,

Noone can ever tell us if there is an afterlife simply because it would be impossible to recall it.

[bastard beyond the wall]

im one the readers who has never fully appreciated the way that hbo has handled this epic. i have watched every season and have always found myself frustrated and saying "thats not how it happened in real life".... but thats just my humble opinion. the "greyness" of the series is something that has always left readers guessing about the characters. Add that to the pov style of narration and the unreliable narrator makes this, in and of itself, a very debatable topic. i have enjoyed the back and forth on the forum but i also find myself yearning for the winds of winter and find that the hbo series has spoiled it for me. Who cares about the how of it... the fact of the matter is that we know things due to grrm's procrastinating and hbo taking off on their own and moving ahead that as readers we should not know. Doesnt that bother anyone that they have completely spoiled the fate of Jon and so many other mysteries and cliffhangers? How many more years must we wait to find out the "true" fate of Jon Snow ? My apologies but i just finished my umpteenth re-read of adwd and i cant take it anymore!  I usually dont even post on here because i begin to rant,obviously, and i get all out of sorts. But here you go

The arrival of the pink letter did something to Jon.

The choices he made afterwards were made in haste

Arya was his little sister, and more important to him than anything including his honor(verry similar to ned and Lyanna}

Could this be because she looks like Lyanna? His Mother...

He has made hard decisions from choosing to join the Night's Watch to killing Quorin Halfhand and riding with the wildlings, Ygriite, Stannis, refusing Winterfell, allowing the wildlings through the wall(as much to save them from the others as to decrease the numbers of the wights they must face in the long night), and then lastly the choice to go meet the bastard in the field. Also i love the way he thinks of Ramsay as the bastard.....Theon would flinch"never call him that" he would say.. Jon obviously has embraced who he is and who he must become even though he does not yet know who he is or who he will become. Wow. This is a major point in the overall evolution of Jon Snow .....

'kill the boy"

Jon Snow has changed and now he has become the man

[GraveWorries]

On 5/10/2016 at 9:50 PM, Chaircat Meow said:

Another thing, about Mel, is that she doesn't exactly have a spotless record when it comes to finding Arya in her visions. She got her confused with Alys Karstark before, so maybe not worth risking her try again. Jon could end up hunting down Wylla Manderly.

The power of belief.  Enough people thinking Alys was Arya and her visions are warped.   Or a wizard did it.

[ShadowKitteh]

2 hours ago, bastard beyond the wall said:

Doesnt that bother anyone that they have completely spoiled the fate of Jon and so many other mysteries and cliffhangers?

Doesn't bother me in the least. 

I love the story, both books and show. I work in the industry, and know how much work it takes to create a show of this caliber, and in my opinion, D&D&B are fraking gods of television.

Your choice is simple: If you don't want the show to spoil the books, don't watch the show. If and when George finishes the books, you can read the books first, then go back and watch the show. It's not as if it's on limited release.

But to complain here seems to me to be pointless. You're not going to make them write the show the way you want them to. 

 

 

[Vastet]

I completely agree, though I'm not in the industry.

I had this frustration way back in the 90's when Jurassic Park came out in theatres. It left out sooooooo much. It even screwed up the characters. But that's the way it is.

Just be happy they went with a tv series instead of a movie series, or 80% of the stuff the show has done would also be on the cutting room floor.

[princess_snow]

1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Doesn't bother me in the least. 

I love the story, both books and show. I work in the industry, and know how much work it takes to create a show of this caliber, and in my opinion, D&D&B are fraking gods of television.

Your choice is simple: If you don't want the show to spoil the books, don't watch the show. If and when George finishes the books, you can read the books first, then go back and watch the show. It's not as if it's on limited release.

But to complain here seems to me to be pointless. You're not going to make them write the show the way you want them to. 

 

 

Exactly.

[Dragon in the North]

I enjoyed Jon's resurrection in the show, but it's impossible to say that it's better than the book until it actually comes out. I do like the reasoning behind Jon's assassination better in the show, however. The writing and Owen Teale's performance made Jon's death morally grey, not black and white. We could see the dilmma Thorne was facing. The Night's Watch has defended the Wall against the wildings for hundreds of years, losing many of their members in the process, and Jon let the enemy through the gates, allowing them to settle into the very land that they've raped and pillaged. To them, that is the ultimate betrayal and they felt justified in their actions. In the book, I found Jon's actions unbelievable. For the entire book, he has been planning the Wall's defenses for the White Walker's invasion. Then, he decides to take away men that the Watch desperately needs to go on a suicide mission against the Boltons. Jon's stupidity and inconsistent characterization took me right out of the story.

[ShadowKitteh]

6 hours ago, Vastet said:

I completely agree, though I'm not in the industry.

I had this frustration way back in the 90's when Jurassic Park came out in theatres. It left out sooooooo much. It even screwed up the characters. But that's the way it is.

Just be happy they went with a tv series instead of a movie series, or 80% of the stuff the show has done would also be on the cutting room floor.

 

[bastard beyond the wall]

14 hours ago, princess_snow said:

Exactly.

YOU KIND OF MISSED MY POINT KITTEH

[bastard beyond the wall]

We were arguing the grey vs black and white of the Snow.... amongst other things. Besides ....im not much of a writer

[ShadowKitteh]

22 minutes ago, bastard beyond the wall said:

YOU KIND OF MISSED MY POINT KITTEH

No I didn't.

I just don't agree with you about being spoiled, it doesn't bother me.