(spoilers) Theory about the Night King...

[DireGhost]

Just now, Grayce Hornwood said:

Hmm, this is an interesting thought as well. I guess I just assumed the CotF were creating the Original WW/NK/Whateveryouwannacallhim because the actor playing the guy bound to the tree looks a heck of a lot like the actor credited as "The Night's King" in the same episode on iMDB.

 

It is the same actor. I have seen a photo of him tied to the tree and they have the credits under the photo for the actress who plays Leaf and this guy.

[Grayce Hornwood]

Just now, DireGhost said:

It is the same actor. I have seen a photo of him tied to the tree and they have the credits under the photo for the actress who plays Leaf and this guy.

Ah, thank you  

[ssls6]

The fact the WW were created and not an "original" race like the CotF throws so many complex theories out the window.  We find ourselves knowing so little just like Jon Snow.  I think the next pivotal piece of information we need is "what caused the long night"?

Obsidian is frozen fire and the ceremony to make a WW involved stabbing in the heart (blood, Nisa Nisa, ...).  They are creatures of ICE now or always?  I wonder about Craster now?  Was he a Stark or related to the NK somehow?  Why his sons and not wildling sons?  So many new questions.  I always thought the Others were magic gone wrong but I really thought it was Ashia magic and not CoTF magic.  The whole planetos felt the long night, have their own explanations for it and its resolution, yet it now feels rather localized to Westeros.

[DireGhost]

Just now, ssls6 said:

The fact the WW were created and not an "original" race like the CotF throws so many complex theories out the window.  We find ourselves knowing so little just like Jon Snow.  I think the next pivotal piece of information we need is "what caused the long night"?

Obsidian is frozen fire and the ceremony to make a WW involved stabbing in the heart (blood, Nisa Nisa, ...).  They are creatures of ICE now or always?  I wonder about Craster now?  Was he a Stark or related to the NK somehow?  Why his sons and not wildling sons?  So many new questions.  I always thought the Others were magic gone wrong but I really thought it was Ashia magic and not CoTF magic.  The whole planetos felt the long night, have their own explanations for it and its resolution, yet it now feels rather localized to Westeros.

The next question for me is when exactly (if at all) did the CotF lose control of the WW?

[Patrick Byrne]

6 hours ago, Grayce Hornwood said:

I think we can all agree that this episode held a number of revelations. Whether those turn out to be true in the books remains to be seen. But as far as the show is concerned, I wanted to put forth some thoughts I had about the Night King.

My Unsullied SO actually put forth the question: "Who is the man that the CotF turned into the Night King?" His limited knowledge of the books—only what I've told him—is enough that he understands the Children have been in Westeros for thousands of years, and that their main enemy was the First Men. Once he brought this up, it got me thinking. The man that the CotF turned into the NK was likely one of the First Men (possibly a Stark ancestor?), who are known to have strong warging and greenseeing abilities. Do you all think it's possible that the NK was a warg, and after he was turned by the CotF, whatever magic they used just amplified his abilities? To the point that he can actually "warg" (not sure if that term would still apply) corpses (aka the wights)? Might also explain how he's able to touch Bran inside the vision, the way that the 3ER has been able to communicate with him through visions in the past.

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.  

This seems very plausible.  Great theory!  The main unknowns are:

Q1) Who is he?

Q2) Why did the CotF decide to do it?

Q3) What was their intention in transforming him?

Q4) When did the transformation occur (before The Pact, or after?  If after, why? If before, what role did NK play in the wars?)

Many more questions as follow-ups, but these seem to be the main ones to me.  The answers have been revealed in part in S6E05, but only vaguely so.  We may have to wait for TWOW for more details, since in the past many of the screen adaptations have left out the details that are evident from the books' inner monologues.

Whatever the case, the people who know the full answers to Q1-Q4 are all dead now (excluding the NK himself).  Unless Bran goes back to see more of the past I can't foresee how we will find out.

[DireGhost]

1 minute ago, Patrick Byrne said:

This seems very plausible.  Great theory!  The main unknowns are:

Q1) Who is he?

Q2) Why did the CotF decide to do it?

Q3) What was their intention in transforming him?

Q4) When did the transformation occur (before The Pact, or after?  If after, why? If before, what role did NK play in the wars?)

Many more questions as follow-ups, but these seem to be the main ones to me.  The answers have been revealed in part in S6E05, but only vaguely so.  We may have to wait for TWOW for more details, since in the past many of the screen adaptations have left out the details that are evident from the books' inner monologues.

Whatever the case, the people who know the full answers to Q1-Q4 are all dead now (excluding the NK himself).  Unless Bran goes back to see more of the past I can't foresee how we will find out.

According to D&D the 3EC downloaded himself into Bran before he was killed. So if he had seen any of the answers to these questions, they are now in Bran's consciousness. The issue now is for Bran to get to a safe place so he can start to process everything that was downloaded.

[Patrick Byrne]

1 minute ago, DireGhost said:

According to D&D the 3EC downloaded himself into Bran before he was killed. So if he had seen any of the answers to these questions, they are now in Bran's consciousness. The issue now is for Bran to get to a safe place so he can start to process everything that was downloaded.

Thanks!

Oh D&D, if only I could somehow download their thoughts!

[Grayce Hornwood]

2 minutes ago, Patrick Byrne said:

This seems very plausible.  Great theory!  The main unknowns are:

Q1) Who is he?

Q2) Why did the CotF decide to do it?

Q3) What was their intention in transforming him?

Q4) When did the transformation occur (before The Pact, or after?  If after, why? If before, what role did NK play in the wars?)

Many more questions as follow-ups, but these seem to be the main ones to me.  The answers have been revealed in part in S6E05, but only vaguely so.  We may have to wait for TWOW for more details, since in the past many of the screen adaptations have left out the details that are evident from the books' inner monologues.

Whatever the case, the people who know the full answers to Q1-Q4 are all dead now (excluding the NK himself).  Unless Bran goes back to see more of the past I can't foresee how we will find out.

Having only seen the episode once (planning a re-watch for this evening) I seem to recall that Leaf mentioned something about needing protection, after Bran confronted her. It seems most likely that they initiated the transformation to create a "weapon" to protect them against the First Men.

As to when the transformation occurred, I'm taking clues from the landscape of the two visions Bran had. In the first, when he saw the man being transformed, it looked like spring: sun was shining; grass was green; etc. In the second vision, at the same tree, it was clearly winter: snow on the ground; no grass; weirwood tree was dead. All of this leads me to believe that the first vision happened before the Pact (after all, why would they require a weapon to protect them if they'd already established peace with the FM?), and the second vision, where the NK touches Bran, happened during or after the Long Night.

[DireGhost]

Just now, Grayce Hornwood said:

Having only seen the episode once (planning a re-watch for this evening) I seem to recall that Leaf mentioned something about needing protection, after Bran confronted her. It seems most likely that they initiated the transformation to create a "weapon" to protect them against the First Men.

As to when the transformation occurred, I'm taking clues from the landscape of the two visions Bran had. In the first, when he saw the man being transformed, it looked like spring: sun was shining; grass was green; etc. In the second vision, at the same tree, it was clearly winter: snow on the ground; no grass; weirwood tree was dead. All of this leads me to believe that the first vision happened before the Pact (after all, why would they require a weapon to protect them if they'd already established peace with the FM?), and the second vision, where the NK touches Bran, happened during or after the Long Night.

You don't think that the 2nd one was the present? I do, or else why would the NK waited so long to attack? Remember Bran can see the past, present, and future. Also there were 4 horsemen total. Prior to Hardhome, wasn't there 5?

[farm_ecology]

1 minute ago, DireGhost said:

You don't think that the 2nd one was the present? I do, or else why would the NK waited so long to attack? Remember Bran can see the past, present, and future. Also there were 4 horsemen total. Prior to Hardhome, wasn't there 5?

I dont really get the second scene. It seems as though the whole thing is just a trap for Bran.

Why exactly can the Night's King see Bran?

[Grayce Hornwood]

Just now, DireGhost said:

You don't think that the 2nd one was the present? I do, or else why would the NK waited so long to attack? Remember Bran can see the past, present, and future. Also there were 4 horsemen total. Prior to Hardhome, wasn't there 5?

If it was the present, then I wonder where that dead weirwood might be. It would have to be close by for the WW and wights to get to Bran in the cave so quickly. Also, I didn't think the NK knew where Bran was, did he?

[DireGhost]

Just now, farm_ecology said:

I dont really get the second scene. It seems as though the whole thing is just a trap for Bran.

Why exactly can the Night's King see Bran?

Dude can raise armies of people from the dead, he is obviously incredibly powerful.

[Grayce Hornwood]

Just now, farm_ecology said:

I dont really get the second scene. It seems as though the whole thing is just a trap for Bran.

Why exactly can the Night's King see Bran?

This is part of the reason why I think the NK might have something akin to a warg's powers. He would have been able to sense Bran in that timeline.

[DireGhost]

Just now, Grayce Hornwood said:

If it was the present, then I wonder where that dead weirwood might be. It would have to be close by for the WW and wights to get to Bran in the cave so quickly. Also, I didn't think the NK knew where Bran was, did he?

We don't know if he knew or not. What we do know is he couldn't get in until he marked Bran.

[Grayce Hornwood]

1 minute ago, DireGhost said:

We don't know if he knew or not. What we do know is he couldn't get in until he marked Bran.

True... but like I said, if that second vision was actually in the present, then that weirwood would have to be close by. Unless the WW can now teleport, haha.

In the vision, the wights either couldn't or wouldn't get close to the weirwood. Perhaps it has something to do with it being the sight of the NK's initial transformation. If it is close by, that might provide a safe place for Bran and Meera to escape to.

[farm_ecology]

2 minutes ago, Grayce Hornwood said:

This is part of the reason why I think the NK might have something akin to a warg's powers. He would have been able to sense Bran in that timeline.

This makes sense I think.

The wighting seems like a twisted form of warging.

The potential Green Seer part would explain his interactions with Bran (and Jon). Is it possible the reason he turned on the CotF is because he knew they would turn on him, or destroy him when he was done?

2 minutes ago, DireGhost said:

Dude can raise armies of people from the dead, he is obviously incredibly powerful.

I dont really buy that kind of explanation. Being generically "powerful" is such a cheap writing tool for a character to just perform random acts.

[[Deleted]]

I posted this in another thread, a few days before this episode aired:

I've been thinking more about the nature of the Others, and this is the conclusion I came to:

(Disclaimer: This post combines info from the books and the TV show, a dangerous game, I know.)

Ok, based on prevews/photos that are floating around for the upcoming GoT on HBO, it's forced me to radically rethink what the Others are. Based on the information we have available, this is what I believe:

1. The Children Of The Forest Created The Others

This one is something I am now 99% sure of. I can see the conversation going something like this:

1st CotF: Men are a weak, cowardly lot.

2nd CotF: Their bodies cannot stand the cold, and their eyes cannot see in the darkness.

1st CotF: They cannot be trusted, but maybe they can be controlled.

From this, they decided to take a man and imbue him with ice magic. This man rose as the first Other, and turned on the CotF and began creating more of the Others. Who was this guy? Well...

2. The first Other was a Stark (most likely Bran The Builder, the earliest First Man to take the name "Stark")

I believe the First Men interbred with the CotF. This was part of the Pact at the Isle Of Faces. These First Men would eventually become House Stark, and explains why some Starks (who admit to having the blood of the First Ment) have greenseer ability, warging, and why the ancient Kings Of Winter are described as having "barely human features", because they were part CotF and part Man. Over the centuries, the CotF part of their heritage has been bred out so they look basically human, but they still retain some of the magic. This also explains why the CotF in season 6 seem to have been aged upward, because as much controversy as D&D like to court, having the Starks look like pedophiles is a step too far even for them. (no matter if they explained "No! This nine year old looking girl is actually nine HUNDRED years old! Really! See, we... Hey, where'd everyone go?)  Anyway, the first Other: After Men broke the pact and started encroaching on the CotF land again, one of the CotF tricked her human lover into being the subject of the conversion. Originally, things went well, Brandon helped to build the Wall with his new ice magic, but as Man is wont to do, his newfound power corrupted him and he felt he should rule, not just be a slave to the CotF. He turned on his creators, and his warging powers manifested in new ways: The ability to warg the dead. His ice powers also meant he could convert more humans just like him. He was not the hero of the Long Night: He was the villain. So who was the Last Hero?

3. The Last Hero was Brandon "The Builder" Stark's youngest brother: Osric Stark

Brandon Stark (now a ramapaging Other) was stopped by his own family: His little brother Osric. He made his stand at the modern location of Winterfell. There's something about this location that gave Brandon's brother the power to defeat him. Osric drove the Others back, and added his own magic to the Wall that his brother built to ward off the Others from crossing it again. But on the other side (har!) of the Wall, the Others continued to wreak havoc unchecked. Osric became the 2nd Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and ruled for 60 years. His heirs becam the Kings Of Winter (since he himself defeated the Others and "winter") and established their base at the source of their power: Winterfell. But the CotF, in a final desperate attempt to retake control of their monsters (I am your monster, Brandon Stak) thought "He was once a Man, and Men bow to their kings. We will make a king for them." Side note: In an even MORE ironic twist, the Wall, which was built to keep Men out of the North, was now being used by Men to keep the Others out of the South. They continued to build/add to it to keep the Winds Of Winter (like we saw in Hardhome) out of the south.

4. The Night's King was another Brandon Stark who fell in love with a CotF (NOT A FEMALE OTHER!) and like his ancestor, was tricked and made into an Other himself

In the time since the CotF made the first Other, they continued to perfect the spell. They wanted their power back, they wanted their monsters to obey them, so just like the bride of Frankenstein, they made a king for the Others: The 13th Lord Commander, also named Brandon Stark. (The Starks don't seem to be very creative with names...) At first, it worked, the new Night's King used his superior powers (and family connection) to bend the other Others (double har!) to his will. And, as GRRM likes to show, history repeats: the Night's King rebelled against his creators and slaughtered the CotF. But where did he come from? What is the Night's Watch?

5. The Night's Watch was originally established to watch out for the CotF

At some point, the pact between the First Men and the CotF broke down and they again entered into open war (Probably Men again wanted more land). The CotF can see in the dark, so it would stand to reason that they would attack Men at night. Brandon, a (magically) gifted architect, help build castles the CotF land, moving forever northward, to watch for them at night: The Night's Watch. Brandon was himself the 1st LC of the Night's Watch Men looked to him to lead them, since he had magic due to his CotF lineage (see #7) In the ultimate ironic twist, once Brandon became the first Other, the CotF had him build the Wall right up next to the very same castles he himself built as the ultimate middle finger to Men, a kind of "So, you think your castles are pretty good, yeah? How about THIS!" But what about the Men north of the Wall?

6. The Wildlings are Men who were sympathetic to the CotF's cause and wanted to keep the connection between Man and nature like they learned from the CotF

This also explains why the some Wildlings can warg: they also interbred with the CotF at some point in the past. Essentially, the Wildlings and Starks share common ancestors, somewhere in the mists of time.

7. The Kings Of Winter had a strong connection to nature since they were part CotF, possibly up to the ability to control the weather.

"Winter is coming." You mess with the Kings Of Winter, they will warg animals to attack you, they will warg into trees to spy on you, they will summon a blizzard and bring winter down on you. The ancient Starks were powerful, and this is how they made all other Northern houses (fierce in their own right) bend the knee to House Stark. Winterfell has some powerful magic that is the source of Stark power. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, or they lose their power.

 

This theory is a bit half-baked, would love to hear what others think of it or if they can think of some other interpretations. I wanted to write more, but I'm still hashing through things in my own mind. And it stll doesnt answer an important question: Where have the Others been all this time, and why are they back now? Have they been trying to summon another Long Night and have just now succeeded? Were they waiting until they built up a strong enough army from Craster's babies?

 

Have at it!

[Ser Maverick]

I think it's pretty clear that the Night King from the show isn't supposed to be same character as the Night's King from the book. 

[Grayce Hornwood]

23 minutes ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

I posted this in another thread, a few days before this episode aired:

I've been thinking more about the nature of the Others, and this is the conclusion I came to:

(Disclaimer: This post combines info from the books and the TV show, a dangerous game, I know.)

Ok, based on prevews/photos that are floating around for the upcoming GoT on HBO, it's forced me to radically rethink what the Others are. Based on the information we have available, this is what I believe:

1. The Children Of The Forest Created The Others

This one is something I am now 99% sure of. I can see the conversation going something like this:

1st CotF: Men are a weak, cowardly lot.

2nd CotF: Their bodies cannot stand the cold, and their eyes cannot see in the darkness.

1st CotF: They cannot be trusted, but maybe they can be controlled.

From this, they decided to take a man and imbue him with ice magic. This man rose as the first Other, and turned on the CotF and began creating more of the Others. Who was this guy? Well...

2. The first Other was a Stark (most likely Bran The Builder, the earliest First Man to take the name "Stark")

I believe the First Men interbred with the CotF. This was part of the Pact at the Isle Of Faces. These First Men would eventually become House Stark, and explains why some Starks (who admit to having the blood of the First Ment) have greenseer ability, warging, and why the ancient Kings Of Winter are described as having "barely human features", because they were part CotF and part Man. Over the centuries, the CotF part of their heritage has been bred out so they look basically human, but they still retain some of the magic. This also explains why the CotF in season 6 seem to have been aged upward, because as much controversy as D&D like to court, having the Starks look like pedophiles is a step too far even for them. (no matter if they explained "No! This nine year old looking girl is actually nine HUNDRED years old! Really! See, we... Hey, where'd everyone go?)  Anyway, the first Other: After Men broke the pact and started encroaching on the CotF land again, one of the CotF tricked her human lover into being the subject of the conversion. Originally, things went well, Brandon helped to build the Wall with his new ice magic, but as Man is wont to do, his newfound power corrupted him and he felt he should rule, not just be a slave to the CotF. He turned on his creators, and his warging powers manifested in new ways: The ability to warg the dead. His ice powers also meant he could convert more humans just like him. He was not the hero of the Long Night: He was the villain. So who was the Last Hero?

3. The Last Hero was Brandon "The Builder" Stark's youngest brother: Osric Stark

Brandon Stark (now a ramapaging Other) was stopped by his own family: His little brother Osric. He made his stand at the modern location of Winterfell. There's something about this location that gave Brandon's brother the power to defeat him. Osric drove the Others back, and added his own magic to the Wall that his brother built to ward off the Others from crossing it again. But on the other side (har!) of the Wall, the Others continued to wreak havoc unchecked. Osric became the 2nd Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and ruled for 60 years. His heirs becam the Kings Of Winter (since he himself defeated the Others and "winter") and established their base at the source of their power: Winterfell. But the CotF, in a final desperate attempt to retake control of their monsters (I am your monster, Brandon Stak) thought "He was once a Man, and Men bow to their kings. We will make a king for them." Side note: In an even MORE ironic twist, the Wall, which was built to keep Men out of the North, was now being used by Men to keep the Others out of the South. They continued to build/add to it to keep the Winds Of Winter (like we saw in Hardhome) out of the south.

4. The Night's King was another Brandon Stark who fell in love with a CotF (NOT A FEMALE OTHER!) and like his ancestor, was tricked and made into an Other himself

In the time since the CotF made the first Other, they continued to perfect the spell. They wanted their power back, they wanted their monsters to obey them, so just like the bride of Frankenstein, they made a king for the Others: The 13th Lord Commander, also named Brandon Stark. (The Starks don't seem to be very creative with names...) At first, it worked, the new Night's King used his superior powers (and family connection) to bend the other Others (double har!) to his will. And, as GRRM likes to show, history repeats: the Night's King rebelled against his creators and slaughtered the CotF. But where did he come from? What is the Night's Watch?

5. The Night's Watch was originally established to watch out for the CotF

At some point, the pact between the First Men and the CotF broke down and they again entered into open war (Probably Men again wanted more land). The CotF can see in the dark, so it would stand to reason that they would attack Men at night. Brandon, a (magically) gifted architect, help build castles the CotF land, moving forever northward, to watch for them at night: The Night's Watch. Brandon was himself the 1st LC of the Night's Watch Men looked to him to lead them, since he had magic due to his CotF lineage (see #7) In the ultimate ironic twist, once Brandon became the first Other, the CotF had him build the Wall right up next to the very same castles he himself built as the ultimate middle finger to Men, a kind of "So, you think your castles are pretty good, yeah? How about THIS!" But what about the Men north of the Wall?

6. The Wildlings are Men who were sympathetic to the CotF's cause and wanted to keep the connection between Man and nature like they learned from the CotF

This also explains why the some Wildlings can warg: they also interbred with the CotF at some point in the past. Essentially, the Wildlings and Starks share common ancestors, somewhere in the mists of time.

7. The Kings Of Winter had a strong connection to nature since they were part CotF, possibly up to the ability to control the weather.

"Winter is coming." You mess with the Kings Of Winter, they will warg animals to attack you, they will warg into trees to spy on you, they will summon a blizzard and bring winter down on you. The ancient Starks were powerful, and this is how they made all other Northern houses (fierce in their own right) bend the knee to House Stark. Winterfell has some powerful magic that is the source of Stark power. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, or they lose their power.

 

This theory is a bit half-baked, would love to hear what others think of it or if they can think of some other interpretations. I wanted to write more, but I'm still hashing through things in my own mind. And it stll doesnt answer an important question: Where have the Others been all this time, and why are they back now? Have they been trying to summon another Long Night and have just now succeeded? Were they waiting until they built up a strong enough army from Craster's babies?

 

Have at it!

Honestly, my initial thought was that the NK was Bran the Builder as well, but the timelines seem a little jumbled to me. According to the wiki, the Wall was built after the Long Night, so wouldn't all the battles of the Long Night have to take place before Brandon Stark built it? Therefore, I find it doubtful it could be Bran the Builder, in the way you've imagined it, simply because, if he was the villain, he would have been driven back North, probably to the Lands of Always Winter, and there would be nobody to build the Wall.

I suppose it's possible he could have started the building of the Wall, and then it was finished by someone else after he (in his NK incarnation) was defeated (for the time being). We don't have a ton of information about this event, so I could see it playing out this way.

Not to mention the delicious symmetry of the NK being a Brandon Stark and then marking a different Brandon Stark for... some as-yet-unknown reason  

[farm_ecology]

5 minutes ago, Grayce Hornwood said:

Honestly, my initial thought was that the NK was Bran the Builder as well, but the timelines seem a little jumbled to me. According to the wiki, the Wall was built after the Long Night, so wouldn't all the battles of the Long Night have to take place before Brandon Stark built it? Therefore, I find it doubtful it could be Bran the Builder, in the way you've imagined it, simply because, if he was the villain, he would have been defeated and there would be nobody to build the Wall.

I suppose it's possible he could have started the building of the Wall, and then it was finished by someone else after he (in his NK incarnation) was defeated (for the time being). We don't have a ton of information about this event, so I could see it playing out this way.

Not to mention the delicious symmetry of the NK being a Brandon Stark and then marking a different Brandon Stark for... some as-yet-unknown reason  

But the NK hasnt been defeated?