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Arya and the Waif !?


TickTak7

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9 minutes ago, Nymeria-of-Royne said:

yeah, I think you're looking at the show with too much of a literal eye.  The Writers clearly want show viewers to be doing a whole helluva lotta suspension of disbelief!  If we thought the way you are then there's a huge list of things in the show that just make NO Sense.  one for example is Euron telling the 20 people left on the Iron islands who voted him as the Salt King to go cut down trees and make ships.  Uhm...where do they expect to find tree's on the Iron Islands?  They don't exist!!  How long will it take them to make the ships if they have to procure tree's off the islands and if they DID have tree's how long would it take to make 1000 ships?  how about travel, FFS Little finger and his jet pack, while Gilly's baby never ages.  and on and on and on and on

So, with that said, Arya learning how to fight but we don;t actually see her beat the Waif is so irrelevant.  By the way, Arya has a Valyrian Steel Sword.

It's not an issue of looking at it with a literal eye - but just poor writing. 

They've stuck Arya in Braavos for all of season 5 and so far, half of season 6. For what? 

You always have to ask yourself - what's the payoff here? What's the point of her being there? 

At this point, I genuinely don't know why Arya is in Braavos. 

Is it to learn to be a better assassin? They haven't shown it. 

Is it to take over the Faceless Men?

Is it just filler to give her something to do before she randomly ends up back in Westeros? I think so. 

At this point in her storyline, her motivations for being in Braavos, and the point of this story arch, should be very clear. 

Clearly - it's not. 

That's a problem, regardless of how literal or casual you choose to view it. 

ALSO - Needle isn't Valyrian steel.

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10 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

Because we haven't seen her improve on the show. 

She was training on how to fight blind, and got beaten. 

Then, she was training on how to fight with her sight back, and still got beaten.

 

So you don't actually watch the show?

Arya was first fighting blind in the gutter while begging and failed miserably. In the end she is in the "ring" and is able to defend herself WHILE BLIND against a full sighted better trained waif. I guess that is what you call getting beaten?

Then she faces off with her sight back, in hand to hand combat, which we have never seen her train in and loses to her trainer...isn't that to be expected? If you have never trained in Karate and fought your instructor, wouldn't you lose?

 

 

And Needle is not Valayrian steel, the smith at Winterfell made it for Jon to give to her, it has his mark on it.

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1 minute ago, TickTak7 said:

It's not an issue of looking at it with a literal eye - but just poor writing. 

They've stuck Arya in Braavos for all of season 5 and so far, half of season 6. For what? 

You always have to ask yourself - what's the payoff here? What's the point of her being there? 

At this point, I genuinely don't know why Arya is in Braavos. 

Is it to learn to be a better assassin? They haven't shown it. 

Is it to take over the Faceless Men?

Is it just filler to give her something to do before she randomly ends up back in Westeros? I think so. 

At this point in her storyline, her motivations for being in Braavos, and the point of this story arch, should be very clear. 

Clearly - it's not. 

That's a problem, regardless of how literal or casual you choose to view it. 

I could not agree with you more!  Bad writing is most definitely the whole and sole issue with the show.  I try to stop comparing the show to the books.   I am trying to watch the show with the idea the writers are way more simple than GRRM and what they expect from viewers.  For that reason, it's easy to imagine Arya's plight and story line.  sort of. but I hear you.

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3 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

Is it to learn to be a better assassin? They haven't shown it. 

Is it to take over the Faceless Men?

Is it just filler to give her something to do before she randomly ends up back in Westeros? I think so. 

At this point in her storyline, her motivations for being in Braavos, and the point of this story arch, should be very clear. 

 

1. YES, she was handling her own while blind against a fully sighted trainer

2. NO, of course not

3. YES, just like in the books

4. Her arc is clear, she is training to be a killer so she can go back and get revenge

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1 minute ago, dbunting said:

So you don't actually watch the show?

Arya was first fighting blind in the gutter while begging and failed miserably. In the end she is in the "ring" and is able to defend herself WHILE BLIND against a full sighted better trained waif. I guess that is what you call getting beaten?

Then she faces off with her sight back, in hand to hand combat, which we have never seen her train in and loses to her trainer...isn't that to be expected? If you have never trained in Karate and fought your instructor, wouldn't you lose?

 

 

And Needle is not Valayrian steel, the smith at Winterfell made it for Jon to give to her, it has his mark on it.

Of course I actually watch the show. 

When she was blind, she lost. 

When she had her sight back, she still lost. 

Again - where's the improvement? 

In case you haven't clued in yet, this is headed in the direction of Arya eventually killing The Waif in combat. 

Then what? lol. 

I'm trying to highlight how poorly written her story arch has been since the beginning of season 5, and most of season 6. 

What's the pay-off for all of this? 

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5 minutes ago, Chett said:

So Mikken was one of like 2-3 blacksmiths in Westeros who knew how to work with Valyrian Steel? :lol:

It is a normal steel sword.

yes you are all right about that. I made a mistake.  Longclaw, Ice, Oathkeeper, Heartsbane, and a bunch more are Valyrian Steel.  I thought Needle was. :( I'm sad it's not but, Castle Forged Steel ain't bad.  I should have realized, Jon being a mere Bastard would prevent him from having one made for Arya. 

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2 minutes ago, Nymeria-of-Royne said:

yes you are all right about that. I made a mistake.  Longclaw, Ice, Oathkeeper, Heartsbane, and a bunch more are Valyrian Steel.  I thought Needle was. :( I'm sad it's not but, Castle Forged Steel ain't bad.  I should have realized, Jon being a mere Bastard would prevent him from having one made for Arya. 

Afaik the art of making Valyrian Steel sword was lost in time and only a handful of people on Planetos know how to create one. Forget about Jon, Ned himself would have had problems finding a blacksmith capable of reforging Ice or whatever.

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5 minutes ago, dbunting said:

So you don't actually watch the show?

Arya was first fighting blind in the gutter while begging and failed miserably. In the end she is in the "ring" and is able to defend herself WHILE BLIND against a full sighted better trained waif. I guess that is what you call getting beaten?

Then she faces off with her sight back, in hand to hand combat, which we have never seen her train in and loses to her trainer...isn't that to be expected? If you have never trained in Karate and fought your instructor, wouldn't you lose?

 

 

And Needle is not Valayrian steel, the smith at Winterfell made it for Jon to give to her, it has his mark on it.

Nice post!!!

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2 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

Of course I actually watch the show. 

When she was blind, she lost. 

When she had her sight back, she still lost. 

Again - where's the improvement? 

In case you haven't clued in yet, this is headed in the direction of Arya eventually killing The Waif in combat. 

Then what? lol. 

I'm trying to highlight how poorly written her story arch has been since the beginning of season 5, and most of season 6. 

What's the pay-off for all of this? 

So a blind person getting so good at fighting that she can hold her own against a fully sighted person isn't improvement? You have a different view than 99% of the world.

And I have stated over and over that the waif will be killed by Arya before she leaves, never said otherwise, you are making assumptions, read any of my other posts about Arya.

Her story is not much different that the books, the cat warging was left out and the Merci scene was changed with Trant. I now actually think I see why they may have chosen to not include the cat. They want to show Arya's growth, not that she is relying on others. Similar to how Dany got out of the deal with the Khals, on her own, not because she was rescued.

We just disagree is all.

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3 minutes ago, Chett said:

Afaik the art of making Valyrian Steel sword was lost in time and only a handful of people on Planetos know how to create one. Forget about Jon, Ned himself would have had problems finding a blacksmith capable of reforging Ice or whatever.

Yep, the only mention as far as I know is the smith that Tywin found to melt down and reforge Ice after Ned's death.

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7 minutes ago, dbunting said:

So a blind person getting so good at fighting that she can hold her own against a fully sighted person isn't improvement? You have a different view than 99% of the world.

And I have stated over and over that the waif will be killed by Arya before she leaves, never said otherwise, you are making assumptions, read any of my other posts about Arya.

Her story is not much different that the books, the cat warging was left out and the Merci scene was changed with Trant. I now actually think I see why they may have chosen to not include the cat. They want to show Arya's growth, not that she is relying on others. Similar to how Dany got out of the deal with the Khals, on her own, not because she was rescued.

We just disagree is all.

The story in the books was much different, respectfully. 

In the books we learned much about what Arya was training - about her observing, and improving her senses and her combat, warging, etc. 

We don't get a hint of any of that improvement in the show. I don't think they've intended to show any of Arya's growth at all. There hasn't been any. Her character hasn't evolved or improved at all. 

I don't think you quite understand my point. 

The show's Arya arc is poorly written - she's been there for a full season and a half now, and I'm sorry, but a simple dual with the Waif which leaves Arya as the victor, is not enough of a pay-off for having to sit through this boring arc. 

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14 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

The story in the books was much different, respectfully. 

In the books we learned much about what Arya was training - about her observing, and improving her senses and her combat, warging, etc. 

We don't get a hint of any of that improvement in the show.

Of course they are different, all of them are, we didn't see Jon warg wither.

I saw Arya observing the insurance salesman to decide what he does and how to kill him. Her observing Trant and knowing how to get to him without him knowing who she was. Her smelling the different bottles to know what was what. Her defending herself while blind. Her learning hand to hand combat.

Again, we just see things differently, that's not a bad thing and the best part is we haven't broken down and started name calling!!

 

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1 hour ago, TickTak7 said:

That's the book explanation, not the show explanation. 

But for a few seconds training montage, we haven't seen Arya learn, improve, or accomplish anything. 

In fact, in episode 5 she got her ass kicked by The Waif (again) - is she really training to be an assassin? She hasn't assassinated anybody, and it looks like her time "training" with the Faceless Men is over. 

Jaquen is Mr. Miago and Its one of those wax on wax off things.  So at this point we need a quick montage of her doing fighting moves (ie fighting waif) and its assumed she can kill. 

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50 minutes ago, Nymeria-of-Royne said:

S6E6....Arya pulls out Needle.  Needle is a Valyrian Steel Sword.

Needle is a "Castle Forged Sword" not Valyrian Steel.

In the show, Jon is seen watching a smith make it.  And he calls it Castle forged when eh gives it to her i believe.


Castle Forged sword >>>> Regular Sword as it would be made with the best materials by the best blacksmith.  

Still not Valyrian

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One theory i read, was what if Arya = The Waif.

What if they are both the exact same person?  Arya represents Arya Stark, the Waif represents No One. 

No One hates Arya because it is opposite of what she is supposed to be.  No one (the waif) must kill Arya for her to become no one.

 

The Waif always leaves when Jaqen talks to Arya.

 

Of course i doubt this is true.  The only reason it seems plausible is because the Waif is full of emotions to with Hatred against Arya.  A true FM, or even apprentice for that matter would NOT have those feelings.  Look at Jaqen when the Waif tells him Arya failed.  He doesnt even blink.

 

 

What if the final twist in her training is.

Jaqen "Who are you"

Arya  "I am Arya Stark"

Jaqen "its about damn time girl"

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I have not reply to a post in years, but this topic moves me.

From my understanding of the history of the first FM, he acted to rebel against the injustice of slavery.  it was not one man holding bondage over another man.  the injustice was one man sought to crush all the hope out of the slave; all the slave had left was his life, and even that was not enough anymore.  out of this despair, the first FM revenged the helpless, lifeless, and the hopeless.  their numbers grew, their fear spread, and freedom was attained.  A life must be paid for a life!  people who had given into despair/hopelessness didn't have gold to paid, the FM was their champion.  just look at Arya's mission given, it was always to remove someone who placed themselves beyond the reach of justice.  FM were never to just become hired killers, but to ensure the scales remain balance.   Jaquen final mission for  Arya was to see if she will just blindly kill without any compassion.  Arya saved Jaquen's life putting compassion over her fears; he saw the kindred spirit of a FM and offered to balance the scales.  Jaquen posed questions to Arya in her training; the waif just sought to crush the hope out of Arya.  Jaquen knows the waif is going to her death because she the payment for Arya's life to leave.

 

my 2 cents      

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1 hour ago, Trimula said:

I have not reply to a post in years, but this topic moves me.

From my understanding of the history of the first FM, he acted to rebel against the injustice of slavery.  it was not one man holding bondage over another man.  the injustice was one man sought to crush all the hope out of the slave; all the slave had left was his life, and even that was not enough anymore.  out of this despair, the first FM revenged the helpless, lifeless, and the hopeless.  their numbers grew, their fear spread, and freedom was attained.  A life must be paid for a life!  people who had given into despair/hopelessness didn't have gold to paid, the FM was their champion.  just look at Arya's mission given, it was always to remove someone who placed themselves beyond the reach of justice.  FM were never to just become hired killers, but to ensure the scales remain balance.   Jaquen final mission for  Arya was to see if she will just blindly kill without any compassion.  Arya saved Jaquen's life putting compassion over her fears; he saw the kindred spirit of a FM and offered to balance the scales.  Jaquen posed questions to Arya in her training; the waif just sought to crush the hope out of Arya.  Jaquen knows the waif is going to her death because she the payment for Arya's life to leave.

 

my 2 cents      

Good first post!   This is how I see them as well.   Too many people lean on the `paid assassins` red herring. 

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2 hours ago, Trimula said:

I have not reply to a post in years, but this topic moves me.

From my understanding of the history of the first FM, he acted to rebel against the injustice of slavery.  it was not one man holding bondage over another man.  the injustice was one man sought to crush all the hope out of the slave; all the slave had left was his life, and even that was not enough anymore.  out of this despair, the first FM revenged the helpless, lifeless, and the hopeless.  their numbers grew, their fear spread, and freedom was attained.  A life must be paid for a life!  people who had given into despair/hopelessness didn't have gold to paid, the FM was their champion.  just look at Arya's mission given, it was always to remove someone who placed themselves beyond the reach of justice.  FM were never to just become hired killers, but to ensure the scales remain balance.   Jaquen final mission for  Arya was to see if she will just blindly kill without any compassion.  Arya saved Jaquen's life putting compassion over her fears; he saw the kindred spirit of a FM and offered to balance the scales.  Jaquen posed questions to Arya in her training; the waif just sought to crush the hope out of Arya.  Jaquen knows the waif is going to her death because she the payment for Arya's life to leave.

 

my 2 cents      

Really good post mate. 

Not bad for your 1st one !

I like what you are saying. 

Unfortunately, I think what you are explaining is TOO good and TOO well thought out for this show. 

D&D are simpletons. 

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