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Meera of Tarth

[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

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I think that something must happen, but I meant that, at least, they will kiss passionatelly. A conversation, while would be grateful, is not satisfying enough given the sexual components in their platonic relationship.

ETA: My understanding of "platonic" here is that they love eachother but haven't had sex in real life yet. Not that they don't think of it.

In their previous chapters, especially for Brienne, she doesn't think she will have something with Jaime, so that for me is platonic. However, she doesn't know Jaime's mind:P and she can't stop thinking of him and falling for him in all the ways it can be: the inside and the outiside.

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Sex is actually pretty common in ASOIAF.  Two characters who want to have sex will usually "realistically" have sex more often than not. When GRRM gave Dany and Daario all that sexual buildup, they had sex. It would have been rather surprising if they didn't.

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Depends on your point of view.  I'm sure many people who like pairings that you don't like could make the same arguments you are making about their personal favorite pair.  Many could (and do often) find similar symbols for say Arya and Jon.  Doesn't mean they will have sex.  

Anyway for Jaime and Brienne it depends a lot on the situation in the future.  I think personally it would be quite satisfying either way - as long as - like Meera of Tarth said "something" happens.  It could even just be a conversation - if it's heartfelt enough. 

 

I think that @Le Cygne refers to the fact that almost every main character in ASOIAF has feelings for someone or has had sex. So, given that the connection between those two is build up during all the books since Brienne appeared and that they are adults, it could very well happen.

They could even marry.

In the text I posted previously, Jaime calls her "his wife". Of course it can mean nothing, but who knows.

and of course, it can end tragically.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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10 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Thanks! Don't worry, great to see people contributing with their ideas :)

Yes, I agree with you with Jaime and Edmure. In the books the tone is similar. I believe he didn't believe many of the things he said but thought it would be effective. 

What I found a bit disappointing was that he proclaimed he loved Cersei a lot, and I believed him there. However, given the fact that in the show they still were together, although every episode more separated, I don't want to pay a lot of attention to it.

It's true that they underestimated The Blackfish.

That was something I liked too. I also liked this encounter with The Blackfish. Those moments made me believe that there was some hope in Jaime's story in the show. NCW is a great actor and he plays book Jaime incredibly well when he has the occasion.

Yes, totally agree. He has reached a point in his life when his priorities have changed. In the books it is more clear, but In the show, with the death of Myrcella I also think it has had an impact to consider.

Great stuff.

Regarding Cersei, I think that in the show when Jaime meets with Edmure, Jaime has mixed feelings about Cersei, and was probably exaggerating her love for her to make Edmure think that he, Jaime, was extremely anxious to leave, and put some real time-pressure on Edmure.   Just my opinion, though, based on some tension and friction we've seen between Jaime and Cersei.  Still, I do think he has very strong feelings for Cersei, and considers them to still be a couple. I just don't think he's the same guy who would do anything for Cersei that he was when he threw Bran out the window; in fact, I KNOW he's not that same guy.   Also a tremendous moment in the scene:  Jaime's throwback line to when he threw Bran out the window and said "the things I do for love," which Jaime paraphrased with Edmure, I think saying "the things we do for love."

Great, great point you made bringing up Myrcella.  It would have been nice if Brienne and Jaime had talked about Myrcella's death a little bit when they met at Riverrun.  Do Brienne and Pod know Myrcella is dead?  Probably.  Does Brienne know Jaime is Myrcella's father?  I'm not sure I've thought about that before or not.  If Brienne DOES know that Jaime is Myrcella's father, then I think she should definitely have said something to Jaime about it, but I guess if Brienne and Jaime did discuss it, we simply weren't shown that.   Seems like a pretty big omission, though, since Jaime and Brienne are now VERY close to each other, and it would have been really nice to hear them briefly discuss what happened in Dorne, including the death of Myrcella.

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3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think that something must happen, but I meant that, at least, they will kiss passionatelly. A conversation, while would be grateful, is not satisfying enough given the sexual components in their platonic relationship.

ETA: My understanding of "platonic" here is that they love eachother but haven't had sex in real life yet. Not that they don't think of it.

In their previous chapters, especially for Brienne, she doesn't think she will have something with Jaime, so that for me is platonic. However, she doesn't know Jaime's mind:P and she can't stop thinking of him and falling for him in all the ways it can be: the inside and the outiside.

I think that @Le Cygne refers to the fact that almost every main character in ASOIAF has feelings for someone or has had sex. So, given that the connection between those two is build up during all the books since Brienne appeared and that they are adults, it could very well happen.

They could even marry.

In the text I posted previously, Jaime calls her "his wife". Of course it can mean nothing, but who knows.

and of course, it can end tragically.

Oh, I'm confident it's going to end tragically.  

I'm absolutely convinced Jaime will die a hero in the final battle against the WW/Others, and Brienne will end up with Tormund.

No "happily ever after" for Jaime Lannister, though.

Who knows, maybe after the final battle he'll be known as the "Nightkingslayer."

HARRRRRR

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11 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I have made kings and unmade them. (c) Jaime, ASoS, Chapter 72

Nice.

It would be sweet if Jaime kills the Night King before dying himself.

That would be very unexpected, I'm guessing almost everyone would assume either Jon or Dany will cross the Night King off.

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14 hours ago, Cron said:

Great stuff.

Regarding Cersei, I think that in the show when Jaime meets with Edmure, Jaime has mixed feelings about Cersei, and was probably exaggerating her love for her to make Edmure think that he, Jaime, was extremely anxious to leave, and put some real time-pressure on Edmure.   Just my opinion, though, based on some tension and friction we've seen between Jaime and Cersei.  Still, I do think he has very strong feelings for Cersei, and considers them to still be a couple. I just don't think he's the same guy who would do anything for Cersei that he was when he threw Bran out the window; in fact, I KNOW he's not that same guy.   Also a tremendous moment in the scene:  Jaime's throwback line to when he threw Bran out the window and said "the things I do for love," which Jaime paraphrased with Edmure, I think saying "the things we do for love."

 

I hope he was exaggerating, as his following actions suggest. Nevertheless, although I agree that he has changed since the Pilot, when he was with Cersei this season before the wildfire he seemed to already be in love with her-not a healthy relationship I'd say, because she was in control and made him do what she wanted. He offered her to stay for the trial, while Cersei said to him it wasn't necessary because she had The Mountain. He seemed distraught about that. Maybe it was intentional, to show us that they didn't have the same relationship as before.

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Great, great point you made bringing up Myrcella.  It would have been nice if Brienne and Jaime had talked about Myrcella's death a little bit when they met at Riverrun.  Do Brienne and Pod know Myrcella is dead?  Probably.  Does Brienne know Jaime is Myrcella's father?  I'm not sure I've thought about that before or not.  If Brienne DOES know that Jaime is Myrcella's father, then I think she should definitely have said something to Jaime about it, but I guess if Brienne and Jaime did discuss it, we simply weren't shown that.   Seems like a pretty big omission, though, since Jaime and Brienne are now VERY close to each other, and it would have been really nice to hear them briefly discuss what happened in Dorne, including the death of Myrcella.

In this clip Jaime says that he has only been with Cersei so that's a hint that he could be Myrcella's father, but nothing more. Brienne can elaborate from that. I don't remember if they have ever talked about this, I don't think so. 

I'm more oblivious about if Brienne knows that Myrcella is dead.

They are very close, so in a future when they meet again, maybe they will talk about everything, about Cersei's actions, his fatherhood, knighthood....but at this point of the story I think the focus was on their relationship, meeting for a brief period of time after a season and a half, so I don't think they could have talked about that. Moreover, they were on a mission. They had to talk about the present siege. As NCS said in an interview: They didn't have time for private Jaime and Brienne", paraphrasing.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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14 hours ago, Cron said:

Oh, I'm confident it's going to end tragically.  

I'm absolutely convinced Jaime will die a hero in the final battle against the WW/Others, and Brienne will end up with Tormund.

No "happily ever after" for Jaime Lannister, though.

It could definitely end tragically and one of them (or both) possibly dying as heroes. However, Brienne will never end up with Tormund, that's for sure. I'm pretty confident that they added those two scenes for a couple of reasons: as a show version of Ser Hyle Hunt and as momentary comedy relief.

There's also another thing to take into consideration: it was only Tormund who found Brienne attractive. She didn't like him. I don't think that they could meet eachother again, and fall in love and develop and story considering there are only 13 episodes left and Jaime and Brienne have been developed both in the show and in the books during several seasons/books.

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Who knows, maybe after the final battle he'll be known as the "Nightkingslayer."

HARRRRRR

That's pretty interesting. It would be ironic if Jaime and Bran together but separately defeated the Night's King.

If Bran ever meets Jaime again (now his memory is blocked in the show and in the books he only thinks about him once but doesn't remember him exactly) he will have to decide what to do with him. "This person has changed, and he hurted me and my father but now he has to live to save a lot of people from the NK". It could play the other way around: Bran applying Stark's Justice, that was his first lesson from his father in the first chapter of the books. Bran has a lot of responsibilty.

Or maybe something different. Or could Jaime sacrifice himself for the world as a penance for what he did to Bran and to other people when he was not a good man?

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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1 hour ago, Cron said:

Nice.

It would be sweet if Jaime kills the Night King before dying himself.

That would be very unexpected, I'm guessing almost everyone would assume either Jon or Dany will cross the Night King off.

Yeah, but this quote is from the books. I don't remember if Jaime said it in the show. But Jaime slaying the NK would be a great finish for his redemption arc

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21 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

@Le Cygne You pitched so many detailes that I missed and now I'm so convinced that if J/B or SanSan won't happen I would be devastated. And it would be partly your fault (along with GRRM and D&D) giving me false hopes:D

I think in the show Jaime and Brienne will be separated for a while. Probably Brienne will take Gendry's path and disappear for a some time. Jaime has enough to do in KL. His break up with Cersei if it happenes (and I think it will) won"t happen in a moment it would be painful and slow because they were unseparatable all their lives. I'm almost sure they won't be left hanging but their encounter could be short and tragic, like was already mentioned Jaime dying in Brienne's arms. It"s really interesting how many people suppose that Jaime would die first, not Brienne.

Glad you liked it! :)

I don't think they have much time left in the show, so they won't take too long to get to things, they are approaching the climax, so we should see some story movement next season. I think they are saving a lot of big things for last, and now they are down to those things.

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On 8/25/2016 at 8:17 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

This is a great example of symbolism!

And I'm glad you picked up the excerpt from the books, when you realise it, it is even more interesting to read:

And then there is also this:

They are very direct. They actually say the words "fucking" like Bronn did, the references about Brienne's red face....

And finally, Jaime says he was "chastising" his wife. He calls her "wife". Wouldn't it be ironic if they married?

But the best part is that they were equal, and that stranger says she actually was "in power".

Maybe she has the power to change Jaime (as she did)?

Oh yeah, the layers have layers. Stories about mutual desire.

It's a big part of all his BatB stories, that the sexuality is empowering for the women. And I think he will follow that up nicely. I like Brienne's thoughts and dreams of Jaime, too. He uses the same technique as with Sansa, other men turn into Jaime, like other men turn into Sandor for Sansa. Like when Jaime puts the cloak on Brienne, instead of Renly. Also the wife references.

And yes, when the show puts it out here, having a character say they both want to fuck each other, that's definitely putting sex out there as something to strongly consider, it would be very odd not to do so, in fact. It's odd to even think of discussing GRRM's romances without discussing sexuality and related symbolism, because it's front and center.

The show is very direct with these things. Like Daario pissing as a show of strength in front of Dany. And fingering his daggers with the lady handles, of course. GRRM uses dagger!dicks in a lot of his stories, and this is no exception, Jaime reaches for the dagger with Brienne. He also uses that with Jon/Ygritte, Sansa/Sandor, Asha/Qarl. And more... Also of course, swords.

These are common literary terms for male sexuality. Common terms for female sexuality that GRRM uses are hills and hollows, and the plucked rose, that's female virginity about to be lost in Beauty and the Beast, as well as the classic red on white consummation foreshadowing. For both, being turned on, he refers to singing and bells ringing. And more...

(I put a bunch of Beauty and the Beast stuff here...)

Edited by Le Cygne

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4 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh yeah, the layers have layers.

It's a big part of all his BatB stories, that the sexuality is empowering for the women. And I think he will follow that up nicely. I like Brienne's thoughts and dreams of Jaime, too. He uses the same technique as with Sansa, other men turn into Jaime, like other men turn into Sandor for Sansa. Like when Jaime puts the cloak on Brienne, instead of Renly. Also the wife references.

And yes, when the show puts it out here, having a character say they both want to fuck each other, that's definitely putting sex out there as something to strongly consider, it would be very odd not to do so, in fact. It's odd to even think of discussing GRRM's romances without discussing sexuality and related symbolism, because it's front and center.

It's interesting because it's The Beauty who finally decides who she wants, but The Beast wants the same :)

Nevertheless, I see that Jaime and Brienne might be both Beauties and Beasts, depending on the stage of the relationship or the chapter. As you have said, layers.

Jaime, at the beginning is a Beauty in looks but a Beast inside. Brienne, the complete opposite. Then Jaime redeems as The Beast from the original story does, though he doesn't have to change physically because the complicated thing for The Beauty (Brienne) is to fall for the inside of Jaime, and she does, when she discovers he is not completely a Beast in the inside, while, at the same time, is attracted physically to him.

Jaime as Beauty (outisde) has to fall for Brienne and ultimately does it because she is everything he wanted to be, and has helped him to rediscover his own priorities, that were lost in the shadows of the uncounsiouss. Then he also rediscovers Brienne's outisde Beauty, something he didn't pay attention to at the beginning, except for her eyes. It's so beautiful.

And with Jaime in the show they have not shown (yet) how he has to defend Brienne when she is not there but I think they could do that in a future.

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The show is very direct with these things. Like Daario pissing as a show of strength in front of Dany. And fingering his daggers with the lady handles, of course. GRRM uses dagger!dicks in a lot of his stories, and this is no exception, Jaime reaches for the dagger with Brienne. He also uses that with Jon/Ygritte, Sansa/Sandor, Asha/Qarl. Also of course, swords.

And where he also has a blast with the phallic symbolism is Dunk and Egg, there's Dunk/Rohanne, and also Dunk with John the Fiddler!

Oh yes, I remember that and it is not subtle at all, and we are talking about the show: a dagger in the show!

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I added some more above, I had to step away...

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It's interesting because it's The Beauty who finally decides who she wants, but The Beast wants the same :)

Oh yes, it's very much a story of mutual desire. And in the end, the desired is the one who is desiring, Beauty desires the Beast, and goes to him (this can be in a metaphorical sense, that she goes to him, she chooses him).

And indeed, Jaime and Brienne have elements of both. Sansa and Sandor is a classic take on the tale, he even gives Sandor the Beast's lines. And there are common elements in both BatB stories.

The show has been dropping lots of "beauty" and "beast" hints for both, too. For this one, Jaime refers to Brienne as a beast in season 2, then Brienne refers to herself as a beast in season 5, for example.

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Oh yes, I remember that and it is not subtle at all, and we are talking about the show: a dagger in the show!

Oh yeah, that was a very sexy scene with Dany and Daario. She was so turned on, I'll find gifs of that... (I added them below...)

Of course, context is everything, but there are hints in the scenes, like what's the scene about (and subtext matters), that tells you how it's used. These are classic ways to show these things in literature and film. There are countless examples.

Here's another nice recent example...

Here are some Dany and Daario examples from the show:

Here is just before he impresses her with his dagger... Here she is impressed...

Here he pulls his dagger out (he's saying, wanna have sex?) And here she's turned on (she's saying yes)...

Edited by Le Cygne

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11 minutes ago, Darksky said:

@Meera of Tarth A platonic relationship is one that lacks physical/sexual attraction. Basically 'just close friends'.

I explained my take on that in my previous post, and also referred Brienne's example. She doesn't imagine Jaime will love her back so while she would like it, it's like a "dream". 

Take it as romantic with sexual desires but not consummation (yet) if you prefer.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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18 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think that something must happen, but I meant that, at least, they will kiss passionatelly. A conversation, while would be grateful, is not satisfying enough given the sexual components in their platonic relationship.

Ok.  I think like with anything it depends on how it's done, but tastes differ.  

18 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

ETA: My understanding of "platonic" here is that they love eachother but haven't had sex in real life yet. Not that they don't think of it.

In their previous chapters, especially for Brienne, she doesn't think she will have something with Jaime, so that for me is platonic. However, she doesn't know Jaime's mind:P and she can't stop thinking of him and falling for him in all the ways it can be: the inside and the outiside.

Brienne is quite certain that she's unlovable in that way - so it would be almost impossible for her to have "non-platonic" feelings by that definition.  

But yes, she thinks about him fairly often...  And, yes, occasionally romantically.  

Best example is probably the time when she is at Crossroads in, considering what to do... and she wonders if she goes back to KL if Jaime will hold her while she weeps on his shoulder, since weak maidens in need of rescue are what men want, right?  (nooooo)  Though in many cases she also tries to distract herself from those thoughts.  

18 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think that @Le Cygne refers to the fact that almost every main character in ASOIAF has feelings for someone or has had sex. So, given that the connection between those two is build up during all the books since Brienne appeared and that they are adults, it could very well happen.

Well of course it COULD happen.  My comment was regarding the assertion that it MUST happen.  Which I think is certainly in doubt.  Especially with the way the GRRM likes to jerk us around emotionally. :P 

18 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

They could even marry.

In the text I posted previously, Jaime calls her "his wife". Of course it can mean nothing, but who knows.

and of course, it can end tragically.

any of these are possible for sure. :)  Let's hope it's at least a little happy?????  90%  Tragedy probably though. 

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45 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Ok.  I think like with anything it depends on how it's done, but tastes differ.  

Brienne is quite certain that she's unlovable in that way - so it would be almost impossible for her to have "non-platonic" feelings by that definition.  

But yes, she thinks about him fairly often...  And, yes, occasionally romantically.  

Best example is probably the time when she is at Crossroads in, considering what to do... and she wonders if she goes back to KL if Jaime will hold her while she weeps on his shoulder, since weak maidens in need of rescue are what men want, right?  (nooooo)  Though in many cases she also tries to distract herself from those thoughts.  

Well of course it COULD happen.  My comment was regarding the assertion that it MUST happen.  Which I think is certainly in doubt.  Especially with the way the GRRM likes to jerk us around emotionally. :P 

any of these are possible for sure. :)  Let's hope it's at least a little happy?????  90%  Tragedy probably though. 

What I mean is that, at first, she is aware of her feelings for him, but rejects them because she thinks he will not love her back because of her appearance. In that way it's platonic in her mind, but the romantic and sexual feelings are there.  She is already in love with him, and thinks of him quite often because she can't avoid those thoughts. When she is badly injured, Jaime is the one who appears, as you pointed out. She imagines a way where they could be together, (even if she thinks Jaime wouldn't love her), in that moment she accepts she is in love with Jaime and that doesn't ashame her anymore.

The ironic thing is that Jaime is beginning to fall in love with her, and this is a path of no return, he is in love with Brienne and not with Cersei anymore. He is more reluctant to admit them, but now that they have met, I think he will fully understand them and possibly make a move.

Given the details the book have and the slow but secure progression of the relationship I think it will move on and it will be happy then. I don't know the ending, but they will definitely tell eachother what they are feeling, kiss, and it's likely they will have sex.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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15 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Given the details the book have and the slow but secure progression of the relationship I think it will move on and it will be happy then. I don't know the ending, but they will definitely tell each other what they are feeling, kiss, and it's likely they will have sex.

Yep. Something must happen is an expression, surely there must be more, something's gotta give... that's about buildup and resolution. We don't know the ending, but the story isn't over yet.

Edited by Le Cygne

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Just saw this on your sig... "We don't get to chose who we love >> -Jaime 3x02"

I think that is how they will follow up... Jaime will say that about Brienne.

When two people want to fuck, and they have another character say they want to fuck, the probability that they will fuck is pretty high on this show. They do like to telegraph.

But I think the romantic side of things will be with the meaning of the line above applying to Jaime and Brienne.

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25 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Just saw this on your sig... "We don't get to chose who we love >> -Jaime 3x02"

I think that is how they will follow up... Jaime will say that about Brienne.

When two people want to fuck, and they have another character say they want to fuck, the probability that they will fuck is pretty high on this show. They do like to telegraph.

But I think the romantic side of things will be with the meaning of the line above applying to Jaime and Brienne.

Totally agree!

That is their line, from an episode that is very underrated on ImDB from season 3 but that I like a lot. 

As you know, It's from when Jaime is Brienne's prisoner and its the prelude of their friendship.

In the scene they Jaime is referring to Renly's love for Loras and also Brienne's love for Renly,  Ultimately it could be applied to his future love for Brienne and viceversa....and he didn't know that love will appear and that love will chose for them. Because at that moment, the last person that they would chosse is eachother, so the line fits a lot a possible adumbration of their future together.

But it is interesting that in S5 Bronn asks him how he wants to die and Jaime just says "in the arms of the woman I love". He hasn't said it yet, it remains ambiguous (the person).

This is after the Tarth scene so maybe Jaime is just thinking of Brienne, or it could be  Cersei. If it's about Brienne, then when Bronn says "She wants the same thing?" and Jaime is surprised it could be that he doesn't really ackowledge the love of Brienne and it was a thought that he had for a moment. If its Cersei's then it might foreshadowing that Jaime is not sure of Cersei's love for him. Both interpreations are not good for Cersei+Jaime.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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32 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Totally agree!

That is their line, from an episode that is very underrated on ImDB from season 3 but that I like a lot. 

As you know, It's from when Jaime is Brienne's prisoner and its the prelude of their friendship.

In the scene they Jaime is referring to Renly's love for Loras and also Brienne's love for Renly,  Ultimately it could be applied to his future love for Brienne and viceversa....and he didn't know that love will appear and that love will chose for them. Because at that moment, the last person that they would chosse is eachother, so the line fits a lot a possible adumbration of their future together.

But it is interesting that in S5 Bronn asks him how he wants to die and Jaime just says "in the arms of the woman I love". He hasn't said it yet, it remains ambiguous (the person).

This is after the Tarth scene so maybe Jaime is just thinking of Brienne, or it could be  Cersei. If it's about Brienne, then when Bronn says "She wants the same thing?" and Jaime is surprised it could be that he doesn't really ackowledge the love of Brienne and it was a thought that he had for a moment. If its Cersei's then it might foreshadowing that Jaime is not sure of Cersei's love for him. Both interpreations are not good for Cersei+Jaime.

That's another good one, that screams follow up. So he's telling himself it's Cersei, but on a deeper level, he's feeling it's Brienne, like he does in the books. And at some point, both of these lines/thoughts will bubble to the surface. There's some dramatic irony going on, that we, the readers/viewers, know more than the characters, they've already planted this ambiguity in the story, who does he really mean... and then it will become clear.

Edited by Le Cygne

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