[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

[larastone]

7 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Jaime: Fucks and supports Cersei even after she publicly executes hundreds of nobles, peasants and the Westeros equivalent of the Pope.

Fans: Jaime is a hero™ now, he's deeply in love with Brienne, he's totally Azor Ahai, etc etc. 

Jaime: Parrots bullshit rhetoric about Cersei really being a good ruler, acts as her lackey, is led around by the nose because he's in a co-dependent relationship with his megalomaniacal sister.

Fans: Yeah Jaime, go kill that entitled bitch Dany!

Jaime: Only extricates himself from Cersei's grasp after she basically dooms everyone, including herself, to a frosty death.

Fans: Ugh finally, now he can live happily ever after with Brienne and their 2.5 kids on Tarth!

Like, let's be clear here. Jaime and Brienne have known each other since Season 3. Their relationship has already had the majority of whatever development it's going to have. Jaime has still been 100% loyal to Cersei (in the show, at least) this whole time until the most recent episode. In the end, it wasn't his feelings for Brienne that spurred him to leave Cersei, it was the fate of all humankind. Oh, and the fact that Cersei threatened to kill him.

I wouldn't argue he doesn't care about Brienne, but I think it's pretty clear who is closer to his heart.

And keep in mind in regards to whatever changes the show has done: David and Dan know the ending of the story.

Even NCW who really really loves the Jaime/brienne relationship said recently that the relationship with Cersei is the "main" one.

Just because the romantic and sexual relationship between Jaime and Cersei is over doesn't mean that they're not important to each other's storylines anymore lol.

[sapphire_lion]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I always thought they'd fight togethter

I know you did.  

But lets just say others didn't. And they're still making all the wrong pronouncements. lol.

The foreshadowing for Jaime and Brienne fighting side by side should have been obvious enough. We saw it. Others missed it. Same goes for the foreshadowing of their romance and sexual relationship, which is abundant and on the verge of coming to fruition. 

Beauty and the Beast is an actualized love story. I also believe that marriage will be involved. Remember that scene GRRM wrote, where Loras tells Jaime that he will never marry Cersei, and then Brienne just happens to walk into frame while The Bear and the Maiden Fair is playing in the background. 

Then there is the matter of the themes of Brienne, motherhood, and pregnancy repeatedly emerging in her chapters. GRRM has explicitly let us know that there is a part of Brienne that wants a child. So, I think that regardless of whether Jaime lives or dies, Brienne will have her little lion cub. She will be a knight and a mom too. Very progressive. 

ETA: On an related topic. Have you noticed how much of a troll Nik has been lately? Especially, since his slip up in China where he accidently let it slip that Jaime and Brienne couldn't be together FOR NOW. And then totally freaked out.

After this little tidbit, he's said that Jaime and Brienne will never happen. He's said they should get intimate because their love has grown out of a beautiful foundation of respect. He's said Jaime and Cersei are the important relationship. He's said the most important thing that ever happened to Jaime was meeting Brienne. He's said Jaime and Brienne are soul mates. He also keeps pretending that he's obsessed with Tormund. He keeps pretending he hardcore ships Brienne and Tormund. He tried to fool us into thinking Jaime would never leave Cersei. This guy. Love him.

[jcmontea]

22 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Jaime: Fucks and supports Cersei even after she publicly executes hundreds of nobles, peasants and the Westeros equivalent of the Pope.

Fans: Jaime is a hero™ now, he's deeply in love with Brienne, he's totally Azor Ahai, etc etc. 

Jaime: Parrots bullshit rhetoric about Cersei really being a good ruler, acts as her lackey, is led around by the nose because he's in a co-dependent relationship with his megalomaniacal sister.

Fans: Yeah Jaime, go kill that entitled bitch Dany!

Jaime: Only extricates himself from Cersei's grasp after she basically dooms everyone, including herself, to a frosty death.

Fans: Ugh finally, now he can live happily ever after with Brienne and their 2.5 kids on Tarth!

Like, let's be clear here. Jaime and Brienne have known each other since Season 3. Their relationship has already had the majority of whatever development it's going to have. Jaime has still been 100% loyal to Cersei (in the show, at least) this whole time until the most recent episode. In the end, it wasn't his feelings for Brienne that spurred him to leave Cersei, it was the fate of all humankind. Oh, and the fact that Cersei threatened to kill him.

I wouldn't argue he doesn't care about Brienne, but I think it's pretty clear who is closer to his heart.

And keep in mind in regards to whatever changes the show has done: David and Dan know the ending of the story.

16 minutes ago, larastone said:

Bronn really should have died in that battle at least. Smh his being alive still is just pure fanservice.

 

yeah I think Jaime has just racked up too much bad karma like I said before. Characters like theon and sandor did horrible things too but those characters have been CONSISTENTLY more dynamic than Jaime over the seasons. While Jaime really has been a pretty static character since season 4. He's basically just been dicking around in cersei's storyline lol. Just compare Cersei's season finale scenes from season 4 onwards compared to Jaime's. She's held the ball in her court in regards to forwarding plot momentum. Even the season 7 breakup scene was a LOT about her as it was a direct contrast and parallel to her scene with tyrion before 

Cersei is clearly a more important character on the show than Jaime is. In many ways he has been the villiain’s sidekick througout the show who is ocassionally being tugged to do the right thing. 

I don’t think Jaime has been static the last two years. I think a big part of his arc has been becoming more of a Lannister - the man he was always meant to be according to Tywin.  He decides to try and be an actual father to the extent he can (myrcella in season 5 and tommen during first part of season 6) and he takes on responsibility for the lannister army as a commander. What has been static is any so called redemption arc as the pull of his family and its legacy has outweighed the call of knighthood until that very last episode. And I think ultimatley that is telling us how this will go. No matter how much he strives he will eventually be eaten up by the toxic legacy of his family and his sister just like he was the last three seasons.

 

[MinscS2]

3 minutes ago, sapphire_lion said:

GRRM has explicitly let us know that there is a part of Brienne that wants a child.

Where? When?

[Lysander]

12 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

 I don’t think Jaime has been static the last two years. I think a big part of his arc has been becoming more of a Lannister - the man he was always meant to be according to Tywin.  He decides to try and be an actual father to the extent he can (myrcella in season 5 and tommen during first part of season 6) and he takes on responsibility for the lannister army as a commander. What has been static is any so called redemption arc as the pull of his family and its legacy has outweighed the call of knighthood until that very last episode.

I never thought of it that way before, but I agree. Jaime has spent the last couple of seasons trying to be a "better" Lannister, the true son of Tywin.

The thing about his "redemption arc" as far as the show is concerned is that it's always been more of an unfulfilled promise than anything. Jaime as a hero is a premise that's never really been taken to a solid conclusion. If anything, his purpose in Season 7 has been to show war from both points of view. But he's still fighting on the side of the big bad. I'm looking forward to seeing how he interacts with Jon/Dany/Tyrion et al, now that they're not trying to kill each other.

I'm interested in what the books have in store in that department.

[sapphire_lion]

8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Where? When?

In her chapters.

We are informed that she holds some sadness for not having experienced motherhood. She's relieved too. It's a stressful ordeal. We are also informed that she has recurrent thoughts on the matter.

Quote

Brienne had been betrothed at seven, to a boy three years her senior, Lord Caron's younger son, a shy boy with a mole above his lip. They had only met the once, on the occasion of their betrothal. Two years later he was dead, carried off by the same chill that took Lord and Lady Caron and their daughters. Had he lived, they would have been wed within a year of her first flowering, and her whole life would have been different. She would not be here now, dressed in man's mail and carrying a sword, hunting for a dead woman's child. More like she'd be at Nightsong, swaddling a child of her own and nursing another. It was not a new thought for Brienne. It always made her feel a little sad, but a little relieved as well. - AFFC, Brienne III

Later, Hyle Hunt accuses her of wanting a baby and she does not deny it.

Quote

 

Hunt rolled his eyes. "I forgot that I was talking to a woman. Your heart is as mushy as our septon's porridge. Can it be? Somewhere inside our swordswench is a mother just squirming to give birth. What you really want is a sweet pink babe to suckle at your teat." Ser Hyle grinned. "You need a man for that, I hear. A husband, preferably. Why not me?"

"If you still hope to win your wager—"

 

Hyle may be a jerk, but he is observant and clever jerk. 

[MinscS2]

5 minutes ago, sapphire_lion said:

In her chapters.

Ahh, it's a book-thing, no wonder I didn't recognize any of it.
Was trying to remember her saying anything about children in any of her scenes on the show but couldn't recall anything on the subject.

[sapphire_lion]

Just now, MinscS2 said:

Ahh, it's a book-thing, no wonder I didn't recognize any of it.

Yup. But I think the setup is there for it to be addressed on the show as well. With Tormund going on about babies, I feel it's bound to come up.

[sapphire_lion]

15 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Costumes! I'm really excited for that as well....I hope we get to see new clothes for everyone (not as black). 

You know, I think I'm okay with the black. The weirwood dream shows Jaime ending up in a distinct place from his family and his Lannister ancestors. Now that he’s abandoned Cersei, he leaves KL dressed in black. No Lannister attire. Symbolism of a clear break. The script stating that he is never looks back again. That divergence from his Lannister past was strongly foreshadowed. Now it's come to pass.

[jcmontea]

34 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Ahh, it's a book-thing, no wonder I didn't recognize any of it.
Was trying to remember her saying anything about children in any of her scenes on the show but couldn't recall anything on the subject.

Yea. On the show she has only ever had a couple arcs:

- protect the Stark girls (complete)

- avenge Renly (complete) 

- coming to terms with Brienne the beauty which seems wrapped up in her relationship with Jaime - incomplete 

Nothing about children. 

[jcmontea]

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

I never thought of it that way before, but I agree. Jaime has spent the last couple of seasons trying to be a "better" Lannister, the true son of Tywin.

The thing about his "redemption arc" as far as the show is concerned is that it's always been more of an unfulfilled promise than anything. Jaime as a hero is a premise that's never really been taken to a solid conclusion. If anything, his purpose in Season 7 has been to show war from both points of view. But he's still fighting on the side of the big bad. I'm looking forward to seeing how he interacts with Jon/Dany/Tyrion et al, now that they're not trying to kill each other.

I'm interested in what the books have in store in that department.

His interactions up North have incredible potential. This thread is about the Brienne ones but a.) talking to Dany about her father b.) talking to Jon about his father and how you can’t control who you love c.) interacting with Bran again d.) more scenes with Tyrion f.) interacting with Arya/ Sansa given their hatred of Cersei. g.) how he reacts when the NK is defeated and the focus shifts back to Cersei. There is some serious dramatic potential there which i expect them to explore since its mostly between main characters. 

[MinscS2]

^ Aye, no matter ones personal stance regarding Jamie and his redemption arc, there's no denying that him going north can...nay...will lead to some very interesting drama and reveals. Damn, all the reunions (and first-time-meetings) between characters converging on WF and the ensuing conversations they will have, has the potential to make for some amazing TV.
Please don't screw this up D&D!

[sapphire_lion]

30 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Yea. On the show she has only ever had a couple arcs:

- protect the Stark girls (complete)

- avenge Renly (complete) 

- coming to terms with Brienne the beauty which seems wrapped up in her relationship with Jaime - incomplete 

Nothing about children. 

The issue of Brienne having children has been brought up on the show. How she feels on the matter has yet to be addressed.

[jcmontea]

4 minutes ago, sapphire_lion said:

The issue of Brienne having children has been brought up on the show. How she feels on the matter has yet to be addressed.

As of now that is just Tormund and his arc and its not even clear if its an actual arc or just a joke. 

When she says something we can say its her arc.

[jcmontea]

24 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

^ Aye, no matter ones personal stance regarding Jamie and his redemption arc, there's no denying that him going north can...nay...will lead to some very interesting drama and reveals. Damn, all the reunions (and first-time-meetings) between characters converging on WF and the ensuing conversations they will have, has the potential to make for some amazing TV.
Please don't screw this up D&D!

Its interesting thinking about the power Jaime has in the next stage in Dany and Jon’s story. 

Dany: him saying she is nothing like her father or she is just like him carries a lot of weight 

Jon: him telling him how his father was actually a great man or not carries weight. Him telling him you have to follow your heart or not carries weight. 

[sapphire_lion]

16 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

As of now that is just Tormund and his arc and its not even clear if its an actual arc or just a joke. 

An unwanted suitor bringing up the issue. Literally what happens in the books. So we'll see.

Quote

When she says something we can say its her arc.

Exactly! But the potential is there. Already laid out. That was my point.

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, sapphire_lion said:

I know you did.  

But lets just say others didn't. And they're still making all the wrong pronouncements. lol.

The foreshadowing for Jaime and Brienne fighting side by side should have been obvious enough. We saw it. Others missed it. Same goes for the foreshadowing of their romance and sexual relationship, which is abundant and on the verge of coming to fruition. 

Beauty and the Beast is an actualized love story. I also believe that marriage will be involved. Remember that scene GRRM wrote, where Loras tells Jaime that he will never marry Cersei, and then Brienne just happens to walk into frame while The Bear and the Maiden Fair is playing in the background. 

 

I didn't catch that!

Do you have the clip? I'd love to see it

Quote

Then there is the matter of the themes of Brienne, motherhood, and pregnancy repeatedly emerging in her chapters. GRRM has explicitly let us know that there is a part of Brienne that wants a child. So, I think that regardless of whether Jaime lives or dies, Brienne will have her little lion cub. She will be a knight and a mom too. Very progressive. 

Yeah, regardless of what happens (and if she has a baby or not) she'd be a Knight. I remember in the comic con of San Diego when Gwen said that if she were Queen she would permit women to be knights!

 

Quote

ETA: On an related topic. Have you noticed how much of a troll Nik has been lately? Especially, since his slip up in China where he accidently let it slip that Jaime and Brienne couldn't be together FOR NOW. And then totally freaked out.

After this little tidbit, he's said that Jaime and Brienne will never happen. He's said they should get intimate because their love has grown out of a beautiful foundation of respect. He's said Jaime and Cersei are the important relationship. He's said the most important thing that ever happened to Jaime was meeting Brienne. He's said Jaime and Brienne are soul mates. He also keeps pretending that he's obsessed with Tormund. He keeps pretending he hardcore ships Brienne and Tormund. He tried to fool us into thinking Jaime would never leave Cersei. This guy. Love him.

Heheh yes, Nik has a lot of fun with the interviews, but he is a great JB shipper ultimately

For NOW! (when is it from btw?)

 

[Apoplexy]

2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

 I don’t think Jaime has been static the last two years. I think a big part of his arc has been becoming more of a Lannister - the man he was always meant to be according to Tywin.  He decides to try and be an actual father to the extent he can (myrcella in season 5 and tommen during first part of season 6) and he takes on responsibility for the lannister army as a commander. What has been static is any so called redemption arc as the pull of his family and its legacy has outweighed the call of knighthood until that very last episode. And I think ultimatley that is telling us how this will go. No matter how much he strives he will eventually be eaten up by the toxic legacy of his family and his sister just like he was the last three seasons.

 

I disagree slightly about the last three season. While Jaime was certainly caught up in his family's affairs, he was trying and failing to be the voice of reason. He was trying to work the system on the inside, so to speak. Its a debate that has existed for a long time, when you see the person in charge do crazy things, do you resign and leave or do you stay and try to make things from getting to the absolute worst. Jaime chose the latter. I think he was trying to be the honorable knight by working from within. I certainly would've preferred he left Cersei sooner, but his redemption arc wasn't completely static. Cersei refusing to send her armies north was the last straw for Jaime.

[sapphire_lion]

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

 

I didn't catch that!

Do you have the clip? I'd love to see it

Here ya go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF2vCrn7TXo

Subtle but deliberate. Written by GRRM not DnD. Then Cersei calls out Brienne for being in love with Jaime.

Quote

Yeah, regardless of what happens (and if she has a baby or not) she'd be a Knight. I remember in the comic con of San Diego when Gwen said that if she were Queen she would permit women to be knights!

Brienne deserves knighthood. Jaime should knight her. Heck, Jon should have for rescuing his sister.

Quote

Heheh yes, Nik has a lot of fun with the interviews, but he is a great JB shipper ultimately

For NOW! (when is it from btw?)

Before Season 7. 

[Apoplexy]

4 hours ago, jcmontea said:

what actual pieces of dialogue are foreshadowing something different?

 

The part scene on the ship to Dorne where Bronn asks Jaime how he would like to die. He says in the arms of the woman he loves. They are close to Tarth at that time. And if Jaime will end up killing Cersei, it might be a little difficult to die in her arms. Which leads me to believe Jaime might die in Brienne's arms, possibly after having done something heroic.

And the Jaime's dream in the book also indicates that he and Brienne will face some kind of danger together. So it is likely that if Jaime dies, it probably happens fighting besides Brienne.