Quyen Thuy Tran Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 3 hours ago, John Suburbs said: I agree with all of that, but the point is that those things would have been good for Jon, but not necessarily good for Sansa. If the northern army and the Vale army had teamed up, then Rams would know enough to take the Vale army into account when determining his next move. It he's outnumbered, he wouldn't meet them in the field unless he had a scheme to give him the victory. If he holed up in Winterfell, then, again, he would have a scheme for victory or his own means of escape. Winning the battle and retaking Winterfell are not as important to Sansa as becoming the ex-Mrs Bolton. The odds of doing that are more in her favor if Rams does not know about the Vale army, and the odds of him finding out are higher if she tells Jon. No, had Sansa told Jon just a word about Vale army, their supporters might have waited for another hour and it would be enough to drag Ramsay army away from their initial formation. The key of the battle is to keep Ramsay in the battle long enough until the Vale come. The Vale and Stark don't need to join together at the same time. For some stupid reason Ramsay didn't even know of Vale army going through Moat Cailin no matter what, so as long as the Stark attack first (but later than what actually happened) and retreat in time, Ramsay's force would still be dragged away and scattered when the Vale came. There is no logical reason for Sansa to not tell Jon anything about Vale at all. It just shows that she's untruthful and stupid. All she need was to tell Jon to wait for another hour (or just half of an hour) before attacking as Vale would come a bit later than them. And as she's bringing the Vale, there is no way it doesn't look good for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostNymeria Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 6 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Again, Sansa telling Jon about the Vale would have been good for Jon: he would have won the battle and taken Winterfell. But it would have been bad for Sansa, because Rams would then be able to plan for battle knowing full well that the Vale was out there, and win or lose, she would still remain Lady Bolton. And many soldiers lives and maybe even Rickon could have been saved. If Sansa withheld the information for this reason you stated, then she comes off as very selfish and unlikable. Because then she risked Jon, Rickon and the rest of the men's lives just so she wouldn't be viewed as Lady Bolton. And Ramsay wouldn't necessary had to have known about the Vale army while planning the battle. Didn't Littlefinger tell Sansa when they met, that they where already in the north? Ramsay sure didn't know about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted July 12, 2016 Author Share Posted July 12, 2016 14 hours ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said: No, had Sansa told Jon just a word about Vale army, their supporters might have waited for another hour and it would be enough to drag Ramsay army away from their initial formation. The key of the battle is to keep Ramsay in the battle long enough until the Vale come. The Vale and Stark don't need to join together at the same time. For some stupid reason Ramsay didn't even know of Vale army going through Moat Cailin no matter what, so as long as the Stark attack first (but later than what actually happened) and retreat in time, Ramsay's force would still be dragged away and scattered when the Vale came. There is no logical reason for Sansa to not tell Jon anything about Vale at all. It just shows that she's untruthful and stupid. All she need was to tell Jon to wait for another hour (or just half of an hour) before attacking as Vale would come a bit later than them. And as she's bringing the Vale, there is no way it doesn't look good for her. No, sorry, I'll just disagree. Jon would have immediately sent envoys, they would have met, hashed out a new battle plan, and there is no way in the world someone like Yohn Royce would "hide" for part of the battle and then attack once his enemy has been weakened by someone else. It would be a huge loss of face for him. He would face his foe in true chivalrous fashion: banners flying, troops amassed, a formal charge... And that would cause Ramsey to change his plans based on his knowledge of the true enemy he faced, which would lead to his escape one way or another. So, again, telling Jon would be good for Jon, but bad for Sansa. I'm not saying this was a good/bad, smart/stupid thing for Sansa to do, just that Sansa putting herself first and foremost in her strategizing says a lot about how she has matured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted July 12, 2016 Author Share Posted July 12, 2016 11 hours ago, GhostNymeria said: And many soldiers lives and maybe even Rickon could have been saved. If Sansa withheld the information for this reason you stated, then she comes off as very selfish and unlikable. Because then she risked Jon, Rickon and the rest of the men's lives just so she wouldn't be viewed as Lady Bolton. And Ramsay wouldn't necessary had to have known about the Vale army while planning the battle. Didn't Littlefinger tell Sansa when they met, that they where already in the north? Ramsay sure didn't know about that. Yes, that is what I'm saying. She is putting herself first and foremost in every decision she makes. I tend to think that this is the only way to survive the Game of Thrones. From what I can see, caring about others is a weakness that can be exploited. And yes, this whole thing is based off the silly premise that the show has put forward that Ramsey, Jon or anyone else in the north would not know that the Vale army was in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyen Thuy Tran Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 17 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: No, sorry, I'll just disagree. Jon would have immediately sent envoys, they would have met, hashed out a new battle plan, and there is no way in the world someone like Yohn Royce would "hide" for part of the battle and then attack once his enemy has been weakened by someone else. It would be a huge loss of face for him. He would face his foe in true chivalrous fashion: banners flying, troops amassed, a formal charge... And that would cause Ramsey to change his plans based on his knowledge of the true enemy he faced, which would lead to his escape one way or another. So, again, telling Jon would be good for Jon, but bad for Sansa. I'm not saying this was a good/bad, smart/stupid thing for Sansa to do, just that Sansa putting herself first and foremost in her strategizing says a lot about how she has matured. I couldn't agree with you. In fact there is no benefit for Sansa to withhold that information from Jon. As I have said, you can see that Vale came at near end of the battle. Jon trusts Sansa, he doesn't have to send envoys. If they agrees beforehand that they should start the battle a bit later, it would be beneficial to all of them as Ramsay had no idea about Vale Army at Moat Cailin at all. If Sansa let Jon know beforehand, his army might start later a bit and less men would die. And she would bring the Vale anyway so there is nothing make her look bad at all. They would still see that the Vale came for her. In short, lying to Jon didn't bring Sansa any benefit. She lied because she's stupid and bitchy and selfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Targaryen Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 54 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: No, sorry, I'll just disagree. Jon would have immediately sent envoys, they would have met, hashed out a new battle plan, and there is no way in the world someone like Yohn Royce would "hide" for part of the battle and then attack once his enemy has been weakened by someone else. It would be a huge loss of face for him. He would face his foe in true chivalrous fashion: banners flying, troops amassed, a formal charge... You just can't know what Yohn Royce would have said. Hiding and coming out at the right moment would be a winning strategy. Sure he wants to fight, but he doesn't struck me being an idiot: he must understand, that if Ramsay sees them before the battle, there won't be a battle: there will be a long siege, and that will cost the lives of many men, especially his, because the wildlings and northmen are used to hard weather conditions. Vale knights less so. And just to agree with whoever made this poit earlier in this thread: Sansa doesn't know anything about war or strategies. The only thing she might know - or feel- is that a surprise appearence of the Vale army might help her (not Jon, not his army, HER). IMHO that's the only plan she has and that is hardly a plan. I just refuse giving her any credit for any kind of master plan - be it a plan to get Jon killed, outplay LF, win the battle with carefully planned involvement of the Vale. I refuse that because I haven't seen anything (in the show or the books) from Sansa that might suggest that she is capable of planning that much in advance, or that she knows exactly what will happen if she does this or that, and makes plans accordingly. Sorry, I just don't see her being (or becoming) a player at all, no matter what D&D try to achieve with powering her up. I know they dumbed Jon down in order to get a smarter Sansa (and I hate that), but BookJon is still a lot smarter, and a much better political player, than ShowSansa is so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frejac Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 2 hours ago, Arya Targaryen said: You just can't know what Yohn Royce would have said. Hiding and coming out at the right moment would be a winning strategy. Sure he wants to fight, but he doesn't struck me being an idiot: he must understand, that if Ramsay sees them before the battle, there won't be a battle: there will be a long siege, and that will cost the lives of many men, especially his, because the wildlings and northmen are used to hard weather conditions. Vale knights less so. And just to agree with whoever made this poit earlier in this thread: Sansa doesn't know anything about war or strategies. The only thing she might know - or feel- is that a surprise appearence of the Vale army might help her (not Jon, not his army, HER). IMHO that's the only plan she has and that is hardly a plan. I just refuse giving her any credit for any kind of master plan - be it a plan to get Jon killed, outplay LF, win the battle with carefully planned involvement of the Vale. I refuse that because I haven't seen anything (in the show or the books) from Sansa that might suggest that she is capable of planning that much in advance, or that she knows exactly what will happen if she does this or that, and makes plans accordingly. Sorry, I just don't see her being (or becoming) a player at all, no matter what D&D try to achieve with powering her up. I know they dumbed Jon down in order to get a smarter Sansa (and I hate that), but BookJon is still a lot smarter, and a much better political player, than ShowSansa is so far. I agree. I know that they cut some of BookJon's more political moves from the show and shifted some of his other moves to other characters, but I'm hoping that they adapt some of the more political parts of Jon's ADWD storyline to his season 7 KitN storyline. Stuff like the Alys Karstark plotline (although that has less impact now) and negotiating with the Iron Bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House_Tony_Stark Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 3 hours ago, Arya Targaryen said: You just can't know what Yohn Royce would have said. Hiding and coming out at the right moment would be a winning strategy. Sure he wants to fight, but he doesn't struck me being an idiot: he must understand, that if Ramsay sees them before the battle, there won't be a battle: there will be a long siege, and that will cost the lives of many men, especially his, because the wildlings and northmen are used to hard weather conditions. Vale knights less so. And just to agree with whoever made this poit earlier in this thread: Sansa doesn't know anything about war or strategies. The only thing she might know - or feel- is that a surprise appearence of the Vale army might help her (not Jon, not his army, HER). IMHO that's the only plan she has and that is hardly a plan. I just refuse giving her any credit for any kind of master plan - be it a plan to get Jon killed, outplay LF, win the battle with carefully planned involvement of the Vale. I refuse that because I haven't seen anything (in the show or the books) from Sansa that might suggest that she is capable of planning that much in advance, or that she knows exactly what will happen if she does this or that, and makes plans accordingly. Sorry, I just don't see her being (or becoming) a player at all, no matter what D&D try to achieve with powering her up. I know they dumbed Jon down in order to get a smarter Sansa (and I hate that), but BookJon is still a lot smarter, and a much better political player, than ShowSansa is so far. Another person ignoring the fact that the Stark army had a giant. They don't in the books I know but turn the book blinders off....Ramsey ran back into the keep sealed the gate, had archers on the wall, and the giant STILL broke through the gate. There would be no siege as long as Jon has that giant. Imagine how much more quickly the wall would have went down with thousands of archers shooting arrows into the keep, and men with battering rams beside the giant. And in that type of battle I actually may be inclined to say less people would have died why? Jon goes down his army would have kept fighting because Sansa is still alive and not fighting. Ramsey goes down the Bolton army surrenders because they have no point to fight anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Targaryen Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 13 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said: Another person ignoring the fact that the Stark army had a giant. They don't in the books I know but turn the book blinders off....Ramsey ran back into the keep sealed the gate, had archers on the wall, and the giant STILL broke through the gate. There would be no siege as long as Jon has that giant. The books haven't reached that point, so its hard to say what Jon will do after his resurrection. but Wun Wun is still there, so yeah. He might still have a role to play if Jon attacks Winterfell. You have a point about the giant, though. It might have worked. I just think that if Ramsay is preparing for a siege, he might have much more archers on the walls, so the giant might not have survived until he reaches the gate. In the show it worked, because most of Ramsay's army was on the field, and the castle was not that heavily defended and he has just given orders to prepare for a siege, so probably there wasn't enough time for getting more men to the walls to kill the giant before he broke through the gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House_Tony_Stark Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 1 hour ago, Arya Targaryen said: The books haven't reached that point, so its hard to say what Jon will do after his resurrection. but Wun Wun is still there, so yeah. He might still have a role to play if Jon attacks Winterfell. You have a point about the giant, though. It might have worked. I just think that if Ramsay is preparing for a siege, he might have much more archers on the walls, so the giant might not have survived until he reaches the gate. In the show it worked, because most of Ramsay's army was on the field, and the castle was not that heavily defended and he has just given orders to prepare for a siege, so probably there wasn't enough time for getting more men to the walls to kill the giant before he broke through the gate. I think it's a null point regardless a giant is something people would not believe exists until they physically see it. There is no way Ramsey would include a giant in his battle prep unless he had a prior engagement with the Stark army. Example, some people call the Mountain a giant in rumor because his is very large but in reality he is not a giant... Here is a picture of Winterfell's court ( http://gameofthrones.hu/app/images/castles/winterfell/winterfell2.jpg ) But let's say Ramsey does find out. You have two spires and two course way's which could hold probably at most 60-100 or so archers. It took about three hits for him to take down that gate. So let's assume this is a siege meaning both sides plan. You don't just send the giant by himself to get plastered by arrows. You send hundreds of archers to counter fire the guys on the wall, you send foot soldiers with shields over their heads to protect from arrows, you send battering rams as have been used since very primitive days I'm sure the North men have them, then you send the giant to deliver the final blow. Either way a siege wont last long while that giant is alive. Just like one would not last long if the other side has dragons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePukwudgie Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 On 7/11/2016 at 3:06 AM, Wilnova said: This discussion is still going on? Lol! Sansa’s boneheaded decision to withhold Vale info makes no sense if she truly wants Jon to win: They could have used more men to win and they could have send out scouts to check where the Vale army was located and when they would get there and plan accordingly They could have ambushed Ramsey in a better fashion with low loss of life Jon would have listened to Sansa and waited if he knew the Vale was present. In the finale he asks for her opinion on LF and respects her opinions. He was desperate for more men. They could have got more Northerners to fight for them if they know about the Vale. Glover specifically refused to join because he thought they were a lost cause. So why did they write it this way. I think this happened because the writers started from a plot point and then traced it backwards. They wanted 3 things to happen They wanted a ‘charge of the Rohirrim’ moment with the knights of the Vale and Sansa playing Gandalf They wanted Sansa to be instrumental in winning the battle. After all, this is the season where the women (Dany, Yara, Arya, Cersei, Ellaria) come out on top. How can Sansa be excluded? Plus this allows Sansa to bitch about not getting credit for the victory (As per Sophie Turner), driving a wedge between Jon and Sansa next season. They wanted to show Jon as someone who is capable of being KITN For getting the Rohirrim and Sansa being the key to victory moments, Sansa needs to keep this information from Jon. If she tells Jon this and Jon still goes ahead and fights, that’s character assassination for Jon. He’s already written as being incompetent as a leader on the show. How much worse would it be if they had written Jon as ignoring Sansa’s plea to wait for the Vale army to get there? The show would then not be able to justify Jon as KITN. Which needs to happen because it happens in the books. So in conclusion, I still have no idea why Sansa kept that information from Jon. The show has shrugged it off with a kiss on the forehead and a no worries it’s all cool from Jon. So maybe we should do the same. This reasoning to me makes much more sense than anything the Sansa-haters have attempted to put together. As I said before however, I doubt this is the end of it. This is probably going to be a recurring theme for Sansa in S7 until she finally corners and offs Littlefinger. It's the same sort of thinking that went into the Wun Wun breaking down the Winterfell gate scene. It makes no sense that a Giant is capable of breaking a fortress gate, especially a Northern fortress gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePukwudgie Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 12 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said: I think it's a null point regardless a giant is something people would not believe exists until they physically see it. There is no way Ramsey would include a giant in his battle prep unless he had a prior engagement with the Stark army. Example, some people call the Mountain a giant in rumor because his is very large but in reality he is not a giant... Here is a picture of Winterfell's court ( http://gameofthrones.hu/app/images/castles/winterfell/winterfell2.jpg ) But let's say Ramsey does find out. You have two spires and two course way's which could hold probably at most 60-100 or so archers. It took about three hits for him to take down that gate. So let's assume this is a siege meaning both sides plan. You don't just send the giant by himself to get plastered by arrows. You send hundreds of archers to counter fire the guys on the wall, you send foot soldiers with shields over their heads to protect from arrows, you send battering rams as have been used since very primitive days I'm sure the North men have them, then you send the giant to deliver the final blow. Either way a siege wont last long while that giant is alive. Just like one would not last long if the other side has dragons... The North is very familiar with Giants. Giants built the Wall. That said, Wun Wun was the last, so Ramsey has probably never seen a giant before in his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePukwudgie Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 On 7/12/2016 at 1:53 PM, Arya Targaryen said: You just can't know what Yohn Royce would have said. Hiding and coming out at the right moment would be a winning strategy. Sure he wants to fight, but he doesn't struck me being an idiot: he must understand, that if Ramsay sees them before the battle, there won't be a battle: there will be a long siege, and that will cost the lives of many men, especially his, because the wildlings and northmen are used to hard weather conditions. Vale knights less so. And just to agree with whoever made this poit earlier in this thread: Sansa doesn't know anything about war or strategies. The only thing she might know - or feel- is that a surprise appearence of the Vale army might help her (not Jon, not his army, HER). IMHO that's the only plan she has and that is hardly a plan. I just refuse giving her any credit for any kind of master plan - be it a plan to get Jon killed, outplay LF, win the battle with carefully planned involvement of the Vale. I refuse that because I haven't seen anything (in the show or the books) from Sansa that might suggest that she is capable of planning that much in advance, or that she knows exactly what will happen if she does this or that, and makes plans accordingly. Sorry, I just don't see her being (or becoming) a player at all, no matter what D&D try to achieve with powering her up. I know they dumbed Jon down in order to get a smarter Sansa (and I hate that), but BookJon is still a lot smarter, and a much better political player, than ShowSansa is so far. I doubt Sansa was planning anything. She was simply acting out of desperation. Had she been the master manipulator LF is, she might have been able to save Rickon, and she would have. EDIT: Sorry about the multipost. I'll remember next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House_Tony_Stark Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 10 hours ago, ThePukwudgie said: The North is very familiar with Giants. Giants built the Wall. That said, Wun Wun was the last, so Ramsey has probably never seen a giant before in his life. Do you just make this stuff up as you go lol? http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Giants There Wun Wun and that one who died at the wall are the only giants the North has ever seen. The rest were either killed or driven out the North long before anyone in the current continuity has been alive. And in the show you may as well just say they are extinct because only one made it south and if the White Walkers did not kill any stragglers off they will starve to death. Saying they are familiar with something they have never seen is like saying they are familiar with fairies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.