The Wolves Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: He did. He smiled and called them dragonspawns something that they were. But they were the children of the man who destroyed his life so his feelings are at least understandable. How did Rhaegar ruin Robert's pathetic life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: When he eloped with his woman. But Robert was able at the end to help Rhaegar meet the tragedy he was always loved. If this is the way you see it than okay. I would love to debate this but I feel that lately I've been saying the same thing so another time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 3 minutes ago, The Wolves said: If this is the way you see it than okay. I would love to debate this but I feel that lately I've been saying the same thing so another time. Look, I do believe that Robert is a broken man and he became on only after Lyanna died. What he told is was bad sure but it's only human that someone would not really care about the man who destroyed his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlandReed'sWorth Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin's gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar's children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. "I will not suffer the murder of children. Accept that, or I'll have no part of this." -The KingBreaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 On 8/16/2016 at 11:27 AM, devilish said: They would be better off leaving the boy with his honourable uncle who would keep him safe, flee to Essos and return once they got the necessary army to actually invade the darn place. Who knows maybe by that time, Robert would die and the Starks-Tullys would prefer the boy they raised instead of some spoiled kid who thinks that the Northern people are dumb and only good to be trampled upon Frankly with what we know of the Kingsguard and their vows and the little we know of Arthur Dayne for him to just hand over his King to the right hand man of the Usurper whose men have just murdered Rhaegar's other two children (no matter what he would think of Ned) and flee to Essos just does not seem to be a possibility . That in my mind is the tragedy of the whole battle of the Tower of Joy , events and honor and duty have trapped Arthur Dayne and Ned Stark into a battle neither want but there is no way for them to avoid it and still be who and what they are . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wall Flower Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 3 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Look, I do believe that Robert is a broken man and he became on only after Lyanna died. What he told is was bad sure but it's only human that someone would not really care about the man who destroyed his life. Lyanna's fate was unknown when Robert was presented with the bodies of Elia and her children (and she was actually still alive). Robert says to Ned that he was never so alive as he was when winning his throne. It was the subsequent daily grind of being king and an unhappy marriage to a woman he didn't want that wore him down. The dragonspawn comment came from his rage against Rhaegar spilling over onto an innocent woman and her children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Just now, Wall Flower said: Lyanna's fate was unknown when Robert was presented with the bodies of Elia and her children (and she was actually still alive). Lyanna had already eloped with Rhaegar so what you say it's pointless. 1 minute ago, Wall Flower said: It was the subsequent daily grind of being king and an unhappy marriage to a woman he didn't want that wore him down. Wut? 1 minute ago, Wall Flower said: The dragonspawn comment came from his rage against Rhaegar spilling over onto an innocent woman and her children. So? Rhaenys and Aegon were the children of the man who kidnapped and raped Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said: Frankly with what we know of the Kingsguard and their vows and the little we know of Arthur Dayne for him to just hand over his King to the right hand man of the Usurper whose men have just murdered Rhaegar's other two children (no matter what he would think of Ned) and flee to Essos just does not seem to be a possibility . That in my mind is the tragedy of the whole battle of the Tower of Joy , events and honor and duty have trapped Arthur Dayne and Ned Stark into a battle neither want but there is no way for them to avoid it and still be who and what they are . Well strictly speaking his king was Viserys Targeryan. Aerys appointed him as heir. Jon was a bastard of noble blood but still a bastard. Used correctly (ie as said because) he was the loyalist best chance to have a Targ back on the iron throne. However for that to happen Eddard must know the truth and Sir Arthur must live to tell the tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 2 minutes ago, devilish said: Aerys appointed him as heir Is there any proof about it? 3 minutes ago, devilish said: Jon was a bastard of noble blood. Can you prove it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said: Is there any proof about it? Can you prove it? Aerys appointed Viserys as heir as soon as Rhaegar died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 4 minutes ago, devilish said: Well strictly speaking his king was Viserys Targeryan. Aerys appointed him as heir. Jon was a bastard of noble blood but still a bastard. Used correctly (ie as said because) he was the loyalist best chance to have a Targ back on the iron throne. However for that to happen Eddard must know the truth. It's not who was technically the king but who Arthur Dayne believed was king . His actions seem to pretty clearly indicate that he believed that Jon was King of the Iron Throne and because he believed that he could not "hand" over Jon to Ned and still be the person he was . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 10 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said: It's not who was technically the king but who Arthur Dayne believed was king . His actions seem to pretty clearly indicate that he believed that Jon was King of the Iron Throne and because he believed that he could not "hand" over Jon to Ned and still be the person he was . As KG Sir Arthur was sworn to Aerys. If Aerys appointed Viserys as heir then Arthur was pledged to defend the young Targ first and foremost rather then Jon. If (and as I suspect) Sir Arthur had renounced to his KG's vows to pledge allegiance to Rhaegar, then one assumes that the man is able to use his brains rather then being a killing drone in the king's hand. Under such circumstances then the best decision Arthur could take was to entrust Eddard with the truth and hope he won't betray his love towards family and thousands of years of Stark honour by committing Kinslaying just to appease his mate. Ironically that truth could have bailed Robb out of his King in the North madness. Imagine if Sir Arthur lived till the war of 5 kings and was able to break the news to Robb. The Northerners would have had a king whose one of their own to fight for which means that Robb wouldn't be pressured to take the title of King in the North and Robb would have had the ideal matchup for Margaery Tyrell to marry following Renly's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wall Flower Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Lyanna had already eloped with Rhaegar so what you say it's pointless. Wut? So? Rhaenys and Aegon were the children of the man who kidnapped and raped Lyanna. I'm saying that Robert himself told Ned that fighting to win the throne was the best time of his life and he still had hopes of getting Lyanna back when he inspected those bodies in the Throne room. So how was his life ruined at that stage? He was just pissed off and blaming innocent children for their father's actions. Ned, who'd lost far more than Robert, was human enough to be horrified at those small royal corpses. I imagine it was because of what happened to Rhaegar's family that the Kingsguard at the TOJ couldn't trust Robert's closest ally and fellow rebel leader. Even Lyanna was afraid until Ned gave her his promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 15 minutes ago, devilish said: As KG Sir Arthur was sworn to Aerys. If Aerys appointed Viserys as heir then Arthur was pledged to defend the young Targ first and foremost rather then Jon. Aerys was dead and Jon was the last living son of Rhaegar so in Arthur's mind he would be King of the Iron Throne no matter who Aerys had "appointed" . He would not be able to just hand his King over to the right hand man of the Usurper who's men had brutally murdered Rhaegar's other two children and flee to Essos . His vows , honor and duty would not allow him to do that and that is just the tragedy of that part of the story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 Just now, Blackfish Tully said: Aerys was dead and Jon was the last living son of Rhaegar so in Arthur's mind he would be King of the Iron Throne no matter who Aerys had "appointed" . He would not be able to just hand his King over to the right hand man of the Usurper who's men had brutally murdered Rhaegar's other two children and flee to Essos . His vows , honor and duty would not allow him to do that and that is just the tragedy of that part of the story That's not how the line of succession works though. Jon is a bastard and he would always be considered second best to the true born. Only a King could legalize a bastard and Rhaegar was crown prince not a King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 11 minutes ago, devilish said: That's not how the line of succession works though. Jon is a bastard and he would always be considered second best to the true born. Only a King could legalize a bastard and Rhaegar was crown prince not a King. How do you know that Jon is a bastard? If Rhaegar married Lyanna then Jon is legitimate and Arthur's Dayne is protecting the King of the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 Just now, Blackfish Tully said: How do you know that Jon is a bastard? If Rhaegar married Lyanna then Jon is legitimate and Arthur's Dayne is protecting the King of the Iron Throne. Its within the King's authority to appoint his heir and change the rules of marriage. Rhaegar had no authority on neither of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 2 hours ago, devilish said: Its within the King's authority to appoint his heir and change the rules of marriage. Rhaegar had no authority on neither of them The King can appoint Moon Boy as his heir if he wants to but that does not mean everybody has to accept it . Rhaegar did not need his father's permission to marry Lyanna and frankly the only thing that really matters is what Arthur Dayne believes and as far as i can tell he believed that Jon was the King and in that case handing his King over to the right hand man (no matter his relationship to Jon) of the Usurper who's men already murdered two of Rhaegar's children just is not something he could possibly do being who he is . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 4 hours ago, devilish said: Aerys appointed Viserys as heir as soon as Rhaegar died. And you know that how? Where it was mentioned? Does anyone in the series have ever mentioned that Aerys disinherited Rhaegar and his children? 4 hours ago, Wall Flower said: So how was his life ruined at that stage? Because from all he knew Lyanna was killed. 4 hours ago, Wall Flower said: He was just pissed off and blaming innocent children for their father's actions. Where it was said that Robert blamed the children for what Rhaegar had done? 4 hours ago, Wall Flower said: Ned, who'd lost far more than Robert, Not true. Ned himself had told that Robert loved Lyanna more than Ned loved Lyanna. 4 hours ago, Wall Flower said: I imagine it was because of what happened to Rhaegar's family that the Kingsguard at the TOJ couldn't trust Robert's closest ally and fellow rebel leader. You can imagine whatever you want. 4 hours ago, Wall Flower said: Even Lyanna was afraid until Ned gave her his promise. How do you know that? How do you know that Lyanna was afraid about Robert and not about the Martells for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 3 hours ago, devilish said: Its within the King's authority to appoint his heir and change the rules of marriage. Rhaegar had no authority on neither of them What? When was that mentioned? 3 hours ago, devilish said: Jon is a bastard and he would always be considered second best to the true born. I love how you seem to know more that the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.