Why on earth did the KG attacked Eddard Stark?

[YOVMO]

14 minutes ago, HowlandReed'sWorth said:

"My father knew the worth of Howland Reed"  

And the girth of Wyman Manderly.

And the Birth of Jon Snow.

And the Mirth of Patchface

And the dearth of the Night's Watch

And the Berth of Salladhor Saan's Valyrian

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, No One of Importance said:

I did not know that.  Can someone break down that relationship for me?

People refer to them as cousins because Aegon V's wife and Aerys' grandmother was Black Betha Blackwood and Rickard's grandmother was Melantha Blackwood. However we don't know what kind of relation they might had.

[No One of Importance]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

People refer to them as cousins because Aegon V's wife and Aerys' grandmother was Black Betha Blackwood and Rickard's grandmother was Melantha Blackwood. However we don't know what kind of relation they might had.

Gracias.

[YOVMO]

6 minutes ago, No One of Importance said:

I did not know that.  Can someone break down that relationship for me?

I do not believe Rickard and Aery's were cousins.

Rickard was the Issue of Edwyle Stark and Marna Locke. Edwyle had one brother, Brandon, who has no known wife or issue ans as far as I know there are no Locke's with familial relations to Targs.

If we go another generation back, Edwyle is the issue of Wilam Stark with Melantha Blackwood.

Rickard's second cousins would have been Brandon and Benjen who were the issue of Artos The Implacable and Lysara Karstark.

If you go a third generation you have cousins that are Umbers, Royces and Cerwyns.

I can not say that no Stark has ever married a targaryean, but no one in Rickard's generation, his father Wdwyle's generation, His grandfather Wilam's generation or his greatgrandfather Beron's generation ever married a targ

 

[YOVMO]

9 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

People refer to them as cousins because Aegon V's wife and Aerys' grandmother was Black Betha Blackwood and Rickard's grandmother was Melantha Blackwood. However we don't know what kind of relation they might had.

Ah there is the blackwood connection.

 

That is a very tenuous cousin relation. If we are going to go that deep into it we could probably find a way to say that every member of the main branch of every great house and, for that matter, most if not all, smaller houses are some how cousins.

[HowlandReed'sWorth]

12 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

And the girth of Wyman Manderly.

And the Birth of Jon Snow.

And the Mirth of Patchface

And the dearth of the Night's Watch

And the Berth of Salladhor Saan's Valyrian

 

 Those are perfect. 

 

[Maester Crypt]

2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Hell, it might even be the case that his death was something he infact foresaw and was counting on, not just planned for in case of.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

Also likely. Could explain why he sent the best sword in Westeros to go guard some tower...he knew Dayne couldn't save him. 

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

 

Think that answers the possibility of Rhaegar knowing at least he was going to die.

[purple-eyes]

rhaegar was just driven by his personal desire in lyanna to do what he did. he is not trying to create a savior for the coming long night. 

that is just an excuse. like all the excuses men use when they want to cheat in their wives. 

something like: oh, my love, i do not like that woman, i just need to sleep with her to save the world. i reluctantly do it for the sake of the world!  you can not let the world meet the end, do you? 

[tugela]

5 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

Because they were ordered to defend her and Ned and Co. are enemy forces. They might not have known the war was over if they're out in nowhere...or if they did they might not care, they have their orders. Plus Ned and Co. had just killed the man they were pledged to protect (Ned didn't do it, but you know what I mean). 

Basically, everyone there knew the score. 

It's not like keeping her there was the end of the plan. I've always assumed they couldn't move her when Ned was coming because she was on the verge of birth. Once the kid was born it and Lyanna would've been taken somewhere, probably the Free Cities. Rhaegar had way too much in this to not have a plan. 

If Rhaegar was doing this to fulfil prophecy, then having the child taken by Ned would have derailed that, even if Ned meant no harm (by no means certain, considering the circumstances).

[Masha]

6 hours ago, Eiko Dragonhorn said:

"flesh and blood"...

You know Robert was Rhaegar's cousin?

You know Rickard was Aerys' cousin?

Yea blood doesn't mean much in wars for the throne.

Distant cousins through grandmothers which for middle-ages means nothing, everyone was a cousin like this.

Also its not really clear if Melantha Blackwood was Black Betha's sister or aunt.

[Blackfish Tully]

10 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

rhaegar was just driven by his personal desire in lyanna to do what he did. he is not trying to create a savior for the coming long night. 

 

Not sure how you can say this when we have zero idea of what Rhaegar was thinking at that time . 

But considering the fact that the Targaryens only exist because  one of their ancestors believed in a prophecy so much that he moved his entire House to an Island in the middle of nowhere I'm inclined to give Rhaegar the benefit of the doubt on him believing in the Prophecy , especially considering the fact that there is an army of dead men and White Walkers descending on Westeroes at the exact same time as his son has become Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. 

[purple-eyes]

15 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Not sure how you can say this when we have zero idea of what Rhaegar was thinking at that time . 

But considering the fact that the Targaryens only exist because  one of their ancestors believed in a prophecy so much that he moved his entire House to an Island in the middle of nowhere I'm inclined to give Rhaegar the benefit of the doubt on him believing in the Prophecy , especially considering the fact that there is an army of dead men and White Walkers descending on Westeroes at the exact same time as his son has become Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. 

barristan already said: rhaegar loved lyanna. thousands died for it. 

 

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

barristan already said: rhaegar loved lyanna. thousands died for it. 

 

How much Barristan or Arthur or any of the KG knew about what Rhaegar was really up to (no man truly knew Rhaegar) is probably very little. Even his best friend Ser Arthur seems to have, while trusting him, found him somewhat...lets say mysterious.

 

Rhaegar was not just melancholy and introspective, he was also secretive and spiritual. He was deliberately working on a prophecy (by working on it I mean he originally thought it was him and then came to believe it would be his son meaning he was thinking about and studying this actively), he is a member of a family with a long history of prophetic dreams and it just so happens, as @Blackfish Tully so aptly points out above, that that son is the LC of the NW right as the Others are getting ready to attack the wall.

 

To think that the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship was about Rhaegar wanting to bone Lyanna is very short sighted and takes away from some very clear evidence to the contrary which also happens to be the premise on which the entire series is founded.

[Makk]

The Kingsguard were going to try and make the king stay the king. Sure, they might trust Ned to look after Jon and keep him safe, but they know full well he wouldn't be king. Look at the text...

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
 

Although Ned doesn't realise what has happened and doesn't understand at the time, I don't even think there is any ambiguity to it once you know there is a new baby King in the tower.

[Simbacca]

R+L=J has not been confirmed, nor has it been confirmed that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped, raped, and held against her will.  This is more like romantic fantasy fiction, and not like the deconstructions that GRRM seems to be going for.

Rhaegar was the crown prince.  If he wanted to take Lyanna Stark as a bride, and she wanted to go with him, why make a secret of it.  Now if he wanted to fulfill a prophecy, and wanted to use Lyanna Stark as a baby maker, then this wouldn't be romance, and Lyanna could have rejected Rhaegar because of this.  If Rhaegar felt he needed to fulfill the prophecy, this could lead to kidnapping and rape.  Jamie talked about how he hated when Aerys raped his wife, Rhaella, but as Kingsguard he couldn't do anything to stop it.  The same could then be said about the Kingsguards serving Rhaegar and guarding Lyanna.    

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On 27.07.2016 at 2:22 PM, devilish said:

The war was over and Eddard was Lyanna's brother and Lord Paramount of the North. Assuming that R+L=J then there was no one who could protect J better then his own flesh and blood and there was no one who could convince him that R+L=J then Lyanna herself who was dying.

Protect from what? Losing his claim to the throne?

OK, let's fast forward fourteen years. Is Jon Snow on the Iron Throne? Is Ned trying to put him there? Doesn't bloody look like it. Point proven. /thread

On 27.07.2016 at 2:22 PM, devilish said:

Surely Sir Arthur Dayne couldn't possibly think that he would defend Lyanna and the boy from waves and waves of troops sent by Robert to release Lyanna. 

I doubt the plan was to stay there forever, that indeed would've been daft. Obviously, it was to GTFO as soon as possible. Ned came too soon.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

2 hours ago, Simbacca said:

R+L=J has not been confirmed, nor has it been confirmed that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped, raped, and held against her will.  This is more like romantic fantasy fiction, and not like the deconstructions that GRRM seems to be going for.

Rhaegar was the crown prince.  If he wanted to take Lyanna Stark as a bride, and she wanted to go with him, why make a secret of it.  Now if he wanted to fulfill a prophecy, and wanted to use Lyanna Stark as a baby maker, then this wouldn't be romance, and Lyanna could have rejected Rhaegar because of this.  If Rhaegar felt he needed to fulfill the prophecy, this could lead to kidnapping and rape.

This version of the events is impossible to reconcile with the Ned's high opinion, nay, cult of Aerys' white cloaks.

"...once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.” “Was there one who was best of all?” “The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star".

This about the guys who allegedly guarded the door whilst his sister was being raped? Nope, not in a million years.

[Simbacca]

3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

This version of the events is impossible to reconcile with the Ned's high opinion, nay, cult of Aerys' white cloaks.

"...once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.” “Was there one who was best of all?” “The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star".

This about the guys who allegedly guarded the door whilst his sister was being raped? Nope, not in a million years.

To me, this quote is just Ned saying that once the Kingsguard were respectable people, but now they are not, for helping Rhaegar.

If Lyanna went with Rhaegar of her own free will, why is everybody close to the situation keeping it a secret?  Are we suppose to believe Lyanna was fine with her brother and father being executed because of a misunderstanding, and had no problem with Aerys ordering the deaths of Ned and Robert, before they rebelled.  Some R+L=J supporters forget this part and act like Robert rebelled because he was angry because "Lyanna loved Rhagnar", instead of him.  Robert's life was in danger.  His friend's life was in danger.  His bride-to-be was "kidnapped" and her father and brother were killed when they tried to get her back.  Ned's life was in danger.  His friend's life was in danger.  His father and brother have been "murdered" and his sister is being held "hostage."  When Ned gets to the Tower of Joy, the Kingsguard say nothing of Lyanna consenting.  They refuse to let him go to his sister.  What is Ned suppose to do?  He wanted them to surrender, but they chose to fight.  Ned didn't want to fight, but all his information at the time (whether true or not), was Lyanna was in danger and she needed help.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

4 hours ago, Simbacca said:

To me, this quote is just Ned saying that once the Kingsguard were respectable people, but now they are not, for helping Rhaegar.

It takes some creativity to interpret "the finest knights I ever saw" as words of scorn.

[RedPriest]

I think there was somebody else in the tower. I mean, if you read Ned's second reminiscence about the Tower of Joy, then you'll know that it said they found him cradling her dead body, silent with grief, despite the fact that Howland Reed was apparently the only other survivor of the fight. And why would the KG fight a battle to protect her when she was dying inside??