Does Benjen know Jon Snow's parentage?

[Winter prince]

16 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

Ned's a dick. Benjen was the closest with Lyanna of all, and its not like there's any danger of him letting that slip to Robert.

How was Ned a dick?

[ryeguy]

I don't believe Ned told Benjen, though Benjen may know or suspect.  I don't think Ned wanted to have Benjen accidentally spill the beans.  By not knowing, Benjen is able to treat him like Ned's bastard. Had he known, he might have accidentally slipped to Cat or someone else especially with how Cat treats Jon.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

12 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I've always kind of believed Benjen knew and that played a part in why he joined the Night's Watch. I don't think it's a case of Ned telling Benjen, but Lyanna telling Benjen about her and Rhaegar and Benjen putting together the pieces when Ned comes home. Perhaps Benjen was supposed to tell their father Lyanna ran away willingly after giving her a headstart and he wasn't able to - something along those lines. I also hope that it's Benjen who tells Jon about his parentage. *sigh* I will patiently sit and wait to see how it plays out.

This.  I alwasys thought that Benjen knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar maybe even before Ned and it was his *shame* that made him to join NW.

17 hours ago, Winter prince said:

Benjen would not know.  If he doesn't tell Catelyn; he doesn't tell anyone

True his only surviving brother and his closest family member is the same with a woman who he was more or less forced to marry.

[theblackdragonI]

50 minutes ago, Winter prince said:

How was Ned a dick?

Maybe dick is too strong of a word, but him not telling Benjen is a bit too far. I mean surely he owes it to Benjen to tell him what really happened to his sister. But then again, he could have.

[sweetsunray]

12 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

Maybe dick is too strong of a word, but him not telling Benjen is a bit too far. I mean surely he owes it to Benjen to tell him what really happened to his sister. But then again, he could have.

Not if it endangers Jon's life. Who's rights outweigh the other's? Benjen knowing how and why his sister died? Or Jon being safe from his uncle making a slip of the tongue by mistake? In a way Ned adopted Jon, claiming parentage, not just being the foster parent. Family of the adopted child have no right to know the adopted identity either. They don't have the right to go to the adoption bureau and ask where their daughter's or sister's child has been given to, not unless the child itself gives its explicit consent to this, which they cannot give before being legally adult. 

[theblackdragonI]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Not if it endangers Jon's life. Who's rights outweigh the other's? Benjen knowing how and why his sister died? Or Jon being safe from his uncle making a slip of the tongue by mistake? In a way Ned adopted Jon, claiming parentage, not just being the foster parent. Family of the adopted child have no right to know the adopted identity either. They don't have the right to go to the adoption bureau and ask where their daughter's or sister's child has been given to, not unless the child itself gives its explicit consent to this, which they cannot give before being legally adult. 

But it's Benjen, the only other remaining member of his family and the one who had been closest with Lyanna of them all. I can understand not telling Brandon (if he was alive) or even Catelyn. But seriously, who's Benjen going to tell? By all accounts he is just as serious and honorable as Ned, not one to let something like that slip.

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

But it's Benjen, the only other remaining member of his family and the one who had been closest with Lyanna of them all. I can understand not telling Brandon (if he was alive) or even Catelyn. But seriously, who's Benjen going to tell? By all accounts he is just as serious and honorable as Ned, not one to let something like that slip.

Benjen is young still when he goes off to join the Wall (he's younger than Lyanna remember,and she died when 16). And Ned was at the Vale for years, only occasionally visiting WF. Ned and Benjen are not the same men, and Ned cannot know what a young, drunken boy-man might end up bragging about at the Wall. As Benjen grows older, he might consider Benjen trustworthy enough, but better to let sleeping dogs lie. I do think that over time there was a silent undrestanding between both men, with Benjen never asking officially and Ned never confirming it. At some point a sly remark and sly answer between the two would have been enough. If Ned had a talk with Benjen about it, it was not before Ned agreed to leave for KL.

 

[Land's End]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

"Did Aemon or Mormont know?" No, they didn't. Although, it's possible that Aemon might have wondered about it. While Aemon would hardly have personally met with Rhaegar, their communication by letter was extensive, and even in letters people have their own "voice" in the choice of expressions and words.

Yeah, I meant Rhaegar's and Aemon's letter exchange. I don't know why I threw Mormont in there, it really doesn't make sense for him to know anything. But Aemon... Maybe Benjen wanted to tell Jon while Aemon suspected something and didn't want him to know? But that's pure speculation on my part. I really need to reread the dialogues between Aemon and Jon.

3 hours ago, dornishdame said:

As for Aemon - I believe that he is blind so that he cannot see Jon.  

This would give Aemon's blindness a really nice symbolical twist, though I have a slightly different interpretation. While no one who sees Jon would suspect him being a Targ Aemon doesn’t see him so he’s not fooled by looks which are often misleading anyway. Still doesn't explain his Dany epiphany in the end.

Your interpretation that Aemon would have been able to see Targ features and therefore his blindness truly blinded him is also interesting. Definitely fits better with Aemon's overall behavior.

Whatever the explanation, I always assumed Martin didn't make Aemon blind just because.

Plus, I totally agree with your interpretation of Ned's thoughts regarding Jon.

5 hours ago, dornishdame said:

-zip-

"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." (Jon I in A Game of Thrones)

This could be interpreted as 1) a simple warning to Jon that he should know what he is giving up before swearing an oath regarding it, and recognition that Jon's life would be easier as his bastard son rather than Ned's as Catelyn would be less resentful, or 2) Benjen vocalizing his knowledge that Jon is giving up a potential claim to the throne and to further the last remnants of the Targaryen bloodline, and recognition that Jon's life would be easier if he were Benjen's son rather than Lyanna's.  

 

Great collection of quotes. Never noticed how loaded this particular conversation was. First time reading "if you knew what the oath would cost you" only meant teats.

[Red Man Racey]

7 hours ago, dornishdame said:

If we look at what Benjen says to Jon about his wishes to join the Night's Watch, his remarks can be taken in more than one way. 

"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." (Jon I in A Game of Thrones)

This could be interpreted as 1) a simple warning to Jon that he should know what he is giving up before swearing an oath regarding it, and recognition that Jon's life would be easier as his bastard son rather than Ned's as Catelyn would be less resentful, or 2) Benjen vocalizing his knowledge that Jon is giving up a potential claim to the throne and to further the last remnants of the Targaryen bloodline, and recognition that Jon's life would be easier if he were Benjen's son rather than Lyanna's.   

There's another possible interpretation to the bolded quote, which after reading a lot of the ideas here, is the interpretation that I now believe:

Ned may or may not have told Benjen about Jon's parentage, but Benjen knows one way or another. Benjen disagrees with Ned's decision to withhold this information from Jon; they may or may not have argued over it. However, Benjen understands that it is not his place to tell Jon regardless of his opinion - that is for Ned to do. Benjen's response "More's the pity" seems to be Benjen saying that he would have done things differently than Ned - he would have told Jon about his parents.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

I think the suspicion that Mormont knew comes from this exchange...it does seem odd.

Quote

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

 

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

Ned may or may not have told Benjen about Jon's parentage, but Benjen knows one way or another. Benjen disagrees with Ned's decision to withhold this information from Jon; they may or may not have argued over it. However, Benjen understands that it is not his place to tell Jon regardless of his opinion - that is for Ned to do. Benjen's response "More's the pity" seems to be Benjen saying that he would have done things differently than Ned - he would have told Jon about his parents.

I like this interpretation a lot!

[Balerion's Whiskers]

I do too! ^^^^^

[Land's End]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I like this interpretation a lot!

 

1 hour ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

I do too! ^^^^^

Me too. Why's there no like-button

2 hours ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

I think the suspicion that Mormont knew comes from this exchange...it does seem odd.

Oh that's interesting. Though, from the writer's perspective it wouldn’t really make sense to have them both know just to kill them off without ever sharing said knowledge.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

Quote

Though, from the writer's perspective it wouldn’t really make sense to have them both know just to kill them off without ever sharing said knowledge.

It may just be a red herring placed to distract us, but it sure looks suspicious.

[sweetsunray]

44 minutes ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

It may just be a red herring placed to distract us, but it sure looks suspicious.

I don't buy it myself, but you can make a speculative scenario where Benjen had a conversation with Mormont as a form of security as he left for his ranging, since so many rangers had gone missing. Mormont is very dismissive of Jon when Tyrion mentions him. Mormont is also plagued with dreams and tales of the Others, more than just wildlings, well before finding the 2 wighted rangers (which is weird considering that Mormont is acting surprised and oblivious when they turn out to be wights and at the Fist). And despite pretending to hardly know who Tyrion is talking about, dismissing him as just some boy bastard, Mormont requests to have Jon as his squire and not a ranger, makes sure he doesn't get his head chopped off for foolish desertion, keeps him away from Craster as much as he can, and isn't all too happy with Qorin requesting Jon to accompany hm on the ranging into the Skirling Pass. We're led to believe through Sam's words that Mormont did this to groom him for leadership, but Mormont shows mostly protective behavior towards Jon. He also completely downplays the sword. Oh it just lay about somewhere in his room, forgotten, gathering dust under a pile of rubbish. 

Given that GRRM originally intended to write a trilogy rather than seven books, Mormont seems to have been set up as a possible person to tell Jon. But his gardening style abandoned this. Hence, I would say that as the story developed that Mormont did not know. But George may indeed have intended him to be a character who did know. Hence, we have that peculiar pointed behavior of Mormont, which is almost completely abandoned in aCoK, save for him not liking Qorin taking Jon along.

[Land's End]

52 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't buy it myself, but you can make a speculative scenario where Benjen had a conversation with Mormont as a form of security as he left for his ranging, since so many rangers had gone missing. Mormont is very dismissive of Jon when Tyrion mentions him. Mormont is also plagued with dreams and tales of the Others, more than just wildlings, well before finding the 2 wighted rangers (which is weird considering that Mormont is acting surprised and oblivious when they turn out to be wights and at the Fist). And despite pretending to hardly know who Tyrion is talking about, dismissing him as just some boy bastard, Mormont requests to have Jon as his squire and not a ranger, makes sure he doesn't get his head chopped off for foolish desertion, keeps him away from Craster as much as he can, and isn't all too happy with Qorin requesting Jon to accompany hm on the ranging into the Skirling Pass. We're led to believe through Sam's words that Mormont did this to groom him for leadership, but Mormont shows mostly protective behavior towards Jon. He also completely downplays the sword. Oh it just lay about somewhere in his room, forgotten, gathering dust under a pile of rubbish. 

Given that GRRM originally intended to write a trilogy rather than seven books, Mormont seems to have been set up as a possible person to tell Jon. But his gardening style abandoned this. Hence, I would say that as the story developed that Mormont did not know. But George may indeed have intended him to be a character who did know. Hence, we have that peculiar pointed behavior of Mormont, which is almost completely abandoned in aCoK, save for him not liking Qorin taking Jon along.

Wow, that makes a lot of sense. Especially regarding Martin's writing style. Thanks for the insight.

I completely forgot about the sword. Though now that I remember it it's a tiny bit in in your face. Special boy gets special sword (Harry Potter *cough*)

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Land's End said:

Wow, that makes a lot of sense. Especially regarding Martin's writing style. Thanks for the insight.

I completely forgot about the sword. Though now that I remember it it's a tiny bit in in your face. Special boy gets special sword (Harry Potter *cough*)

It fits with getting strong hints for R+L=J in aGoT. Most clues come from the first book. Beyond that we have HotU's blue rose in the Wall, Meera's KotLT in aSoS, picking up in aDwD with Mel's Snow visions, Aemon's advice to Jon which he gave Egg once. With what GRRM had originally in mind the parentage reveal would have come sooner, but once that was moved back, he could drop Jeor Mormont as the possible revealer imo. Tyrion's personal conversation with Mormont and the Old Bear's words and mood are jarring in contrast to Mormont later saying "We forgot our original purpose!" That alone gave me a sense of Jeor having been slightly retconned to someone who seems more and more oblivious as the plot progresses.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

41 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That alone gave me a sense of Jeor having been slightly retconned to someone who seems more and more oblivious as the plot progresses.

You make a valid point and it makes quite a bit of sense. This could very well be a throwback to an original idea or plotline...the fact that Mormont hardly knew who Jon was at the beginning, but then takes over as a fairly protective father figure after Benjen disappeared does validate this hypothesis. The scene with the raven has always seemed out of place for me. You could tell what Martin was going for, but there wasn't anything else anywhere in the text to substantiate that Mormont was privy to R+L=J

 

edited to add...

If Benjen knew and told Mormont before he left, then Jeor should have told Jon before he took his vows...which he never did. So, I conclude that even if Benjen knew, (in the final published work) he never told Jeor.

[Land's End]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It fits with getting strong hints for R+L=J in aGoT. Most clues come from the first book. Beyond that we have HotU's blue rose in the Wall, Meera's KotLT in aSoS, picking up in aDwD with Mel's Snow visions, Aemon's advice to Jon which he gave Egg once. With what GRRM had originally in mind the parentage reveal would have come sooner, but once that was moved back, he could drop Jeor Mormont as the possible revealer imo. Tyrion's personal conversation with Mormont and the Old Bear's words and mood are jarring in contrast to Mormont later saying "We forgot our original purpose!" That alone gave me a sense of Jeor having been slightly retconned to someone who seems more and more oblivious as the plot progresses.

Yeah I'm aware of the major hints though I think the others are more creative. The sword-thing is an exhausted trope.

Your explanation how the development of the story made Martin change his original intentions makes a lot of sense. At this point I'm completely convinced R+L=J was his original idea but I can't help wondering if he might change this as well.

Spoiler

Especially after the show reveal and how it was done there

 

[sweetsunray]

30 minutes ago, Land's End said:

At this point I'm completely convinced R+L=J was his original idea but I can't help wondering if he might change this as well

George stayed away from forums since the late 90s, because there were theories that had stuff right. He does not want to be influenced in his writing because of theories. And he also explicitly said he won't change things just because the show let one of the cats out of the bag, and aslo stressed that since S5 the show and book stories are different anyway. But no, I don't think he will change what he originally planned to reveal. He just changed how he was going to reveal it.