Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

TheDailyPlanetos

[Spoilers Everything] The Faceless Men End Game

Recommended Posts

Hi Everyone, I spent some time doing some research on Martin's epic assassins in an attempt to reveal their end game. Although the general basis for the theory isn't unique I think some of the evidence and ancillary info will be new territory. These are the cliff notes, but check out my video here FACELESS MEN THEORY, it dives into a more extensive review. 
In a conversation between Arya and the high priest of the house of black and white known as the kindly man (or Jaqen H’ghar in the tv show), we learn that the Faceless men originated in the slave pits of Old Valyria. He speaks of the slaves that worked in the Valyrian mines and the wickedness of their masters. Often the slaves would uncover magical creatures such as fire wyrms that would go on to wreak havoc amongst them making survival particularly volatile. It's from this that we learn of the origin of The Many Faced god and the origin of TFM. When Arya asks The Kindly Man why TFM were bestowing their "gift" to the slaves as opposed to the masters, he alludes to the fact that they did but it's a story for another time.

Quote

“That very night he chose the most wretched of the slaves, the one who had prayed most earnestly for release, and freed him from his bondage. The first gift had been given." Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!" "He would bring the gift to them as well . . . but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one."


So based on this, it would make sense that TFM had some role in bringing about the Doom of Valyria. How would they do this? Reddit user ShopeIV puts forth a theory that claims the FM learned how to weaponize dragon eggs. It is still uncertain in the history of ASOIAF, how exactly dragon eggs are hatched, but it’s claimed to be quite volatile. We do see Daenerys hatch her three, and it’s thought to be a combination of Fire and Blood that does the trick, but that is way oversimplifying it I’m sure. Her intuition to step into the flames at the right time is typically cited. Lord Alester Florent, lord of dragonstone in Stannis Baratheon’s absence, quotes just a few of the tragedies that have befallen those who have attempted to hatch eggs. We’re not going down the Summerhall rabbit hole in this video, but we’re working on a pretty cool Summerhall theory that will be released in the next few weeks. 

Quote

“This talk of a stone dragon ... madness, I tell you, sheer madness. Did we learn nothing from Aerion Brightfire, from the nine mages, from the alchemists? Did we learn nothing from Summerhall? No good has ever come from these dreams of dragons.”

In the prologue of AFFC we are introduced to Pate, a novice at the citadel who is drinking in a tavern.  He is approached by a man who calls himself an alchemist and attempts to bribe Pate to steal a skeleton key to the Citadel from his senile old maester.  Pate at first declines the offer but then decides to in order to afford the maidenhead of a girl he has a crush on. After the deal is struck Pate is believed to have died at the end of the prologue but not before pulling back the hood of the alchemist revealing a face that is described as being identical to the face Jaqen H’ghar had assumed when leaving Arya.  What would he be looking for?  In a Dance with Dragons, Tyrion reflects about many tomes that are contained in the depths of the citadel.  Chiefly among these is A Death of Dragons which could easily detail ways to kill and perhaps even hatch dragons.  So….how the hell would the FM even get something as rare as a dragon egg?  Easily apparently.  Euron Greyjoy speaks to Victarion during A Feast of Crows about how he had come across a dragon egg but threw it into the sea in one of his darker moods.  This of course is Euron covering his tracks.  In reality, though it hasn’t been explained explicitly, Euron used the dragon egg as payment to the FM in order to kill Balon (who was seen being killed in a vision by a man with no face) so that he could ascend the seastone chair. There is no set price for the FM to assassinate someone but rather their price depends upon what you have to offer as payment.  A dragon egg would definitely cover the killing of a king of the iron islands.

As a caveat to this theory, there is a separate theory that holds the FM as followers of The Great Other, the one who empowers the white walkers, basically the opposing force to R’hollor, the god Melissandre worships. There are some nice points being made about how the FM would love giving their masters gift to all living beings on Planetos, but that essentially turns them into a death cult and makes their arc a little lame.  Followers of the great other are not technically alive.  A wight would be described as the text book definition of undead.  Dead but still animated. This flies in the face of everything the FM stand for.  The great other perverts the gift that the FM impart upon those chosen by the many faced god.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

rubbing my hands together getting ready to totally nerd out. I love FM stuff. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DutchArya said:

What side would the FM be on in the War? The Others or the side fighting them... which most likely will include Dragons?

 

 

One thing for sure is that FM will always be anti dragons / dragon lords as their origin is as slaves in Valyria.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Faceless Men would not need a dragon egg to kick-start the Doom. They just have to assassinate the key mages holding back the 14 Flames. Ironically, it could very well have been the Valyrian dragonlords vying for control of the empire who paid for the assassinations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

One thing for sure is that FM will always be anti dragons / dragon lords as their origin is as slaves in Valyria.

I wouldn't be too sure: they seem to be ok with Dany as long as she spends her time killing slavers. IMO they'll tolerate her as long as she's fighting their mutual enemy in a far off land. Once she sails for Westeros...anything goes. This is why I like the idea of Arya becoming Dany's bodyguard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I wouldn't be too sure: they seem to be ok with Dany as long as she spends her time killing slavers. IMO they'll tolerate her as long as she's fighting their mutual enemy in a far off land. Once she sails for Westeros...anything goes. This is why I like the idea of Arya becoming Dany's bodyguard.

I disagree with this but it is a longer story about the FM and what they are up to. with some small places where I believe refinement is necessary and a couple of very minor differences I am a huge fan and believer in the grand faceless man conspiracy by @Toe and do believe that the FM are trying to give the gift to everyone. All men must die....literally....doomsday cult

 

I don't think Dany will ever sail for westeros. I think she will be dead before that. 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, YOVMO said:

I disagree with this but it is a longer story about the FM and what they are up to. with some small places where I believe refinement is necessary and a couple of very minor differences I am a huge fan and believer in the grand faceless man conspiracy by @Toe and do believe that the FM are trying to give the gift to everyone. All men must die....literally....doomsday cult

 

I don't think Dany will ever sail for westeros. I think she will be dead before that.

I read that theory and I was quite taken with it. However my point is not about the Faceless Men's end goal but instead about their attitude to Dany. The FM hate slavers and dragons. Dany has dragons and is fighting slavers. The FM are pragmatic and good at playing the long game. Therefore I believe that as long as Dany continues fighting slavers and stay away from the FM area of interest (ie most of the Free Cities and Westeros) they'll largely leave her be.

Of course, depending on which theory you like best, Dany might have a FM in her inner circle already *cough* Missandei *cough*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the subject of Euron and the dragon egg, I've always wondered:

Was the dragon egg really that huge a price for Euron to give up? I mean, he could have got Balon killed far more easily if he really wished to, if we assume that he would have desperately wanted to hold on to the dragon egg. The ease with which he gave it away to the FM bothers me. I wonder if there is a lot more the FM have asked of him - or is it that he didn't care about the dragon egg, just like he doesn't care about the riches he's earned from his looting and plundering -  OR, did he give the dragon egg to the FM as part of some mutual deal?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

On the subject of Euron and the dragon egg, I've always wondered:

Was the dragon egg really that huge a price for Euron to give up? I mean, he could have got Balon killed far more easily if he really wished to, if we assume that he would have desperately wanted to hold on to the dragon egg. The ease with which he gave it away to the FM bothers me. I wonder if there is a lot more the FM have asked of him - or is it that he didn't care about the dragon egg, just like he doesn't care about the riches he's earned from his looting and plundering -  OR, did he give the dragon egg to the FM as part of some mutual deal?

It might be because the FM were really desperate for a dragon egg? Need can work both ways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I read that theory and I was quite taken with it. However my point is not about the Faceless Men's end goal but instead about their attitude to Dany. The FM hate slavers and dragons. Dany has dragons and is fighting slavers. The FM are pragmatic and good at playing the long game. Therefore I believe that as long as Dany continues fighting slavers and stay away from the FM area of interest (ie most of the Free Cities and Westeros) they'll largely leave her be.

Of course, depending on which theory you like best, Dany might have a FM in her inner circle already *cough* Missandei *cough*

Yes, your point is well taken that Dany is a breaker of chains and so the FM have more natural allegiance to her than they would to, say, a guy like Aegon I. That said, I am pretty sure that the faceless men are planning on getting one of Dany's dragons to take down the wall with. 

 

You and I are on the same page with Missandei. I also have wondered if it might be Doreah the Diddler.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

On the subject of Euron and the dragon egg, I've always wondered:

Was the dragon egg really that huge a price for Euron to give up? I mean, he could have got Balon killed far more easily if he really wished to, if we assume that he would have desperately wanted to hold on to the dragon egg. The ease with which he gave it away to the FM bothers me. I wonder if there is a lot more the FM have asked of him - or is it that he didn't care about the dragon egg, just like he doesn't care about the riches he's earned from his looting and plundering -  OR, did he give the dragon egg to the FM as part of some mutual deal?

This is my thinking exactly. I mean, FM seem more like they would ask him for something like, say, Silence. Something he truly cared about. Except for its monetary value the dragon egg has no real significance to Euron. 

I do believe that there is a possibility that Euron dead and being worn as a face for one of the Secret Servants that Arya spies in the house of black and white. That said, I also think that it is a possibility that this isn't the case at all. I am really up in the air. I really wish they would cancel the football season until Martin finishes this book. I am at a point where I can watch Misery and think that Kathy Bates' actions were totally understandable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Yes, your point is well taken that Dany is a breaker of chains and so the FM have more natural allegiance to her than they would to, say, a guy like Aegon I. That said, I am pretty sure that the faceless men are planning on getting one of Dany's dragons to take down the wall with.

...for which a certain Crow-character's dragon horn might be handy?

As for the Wall, I don't see that happening I'm afraid. No matter how powerful dragons are, I very much doubt that they can melt through thousands of tons of ice (not to mention possible stone foundations and defensive spells). Besides which, Dany's three are only babies.

10 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

You and I are on the same page with Missandei. I also have wondered if it might be Doreah the Diddler.

Um...she dead, right?

7 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

This is my thinking exactly. I mean, FM seem more like they would ask him for something like, say, Silence. Something he truly cared about. Except for its monetary value the dragon egg has no real significance to Euron. 

I really think this may have been a combination of (1) a dragon egg's huge value, regardless of the target, and (2) the FM's massive need for a dragon egg for their own purposes. Economic theory, as much as anything: Euron's the only provider of the egg, so the FM need to up their offer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

...for which a certain Crow-character's dragon horn might be handy?

Indeed it would.

4 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

As for the Wall, I don't see that happening I'm afraid. No matter how powerful dragons are, I very much doubt that they can melt through thousands of tons of ice (not to mention possible stone foundations and defensive spells). Besides which, Dany's three are only babies.

Maybe, but a couple of things to keep in mind. A 100 mile long 700 foot high wall made out of ice is implausible in the first place. I am fairly certain that everyone is in agreement that the wall is held together with more than just ice...but rather with magic. So in the same way that a obsidian dagger would seem like the most obvious tool to instantly kill an ice zombie in one shot, it may very well be that dragon fire is something that might disrupt whatever magic the wall has in it. After all, Dragonsteel (which we are kind of assuming is VS) has the power to kill the others so I am thinking that there is something special about dragon fire that might attack the wall in a way that isn't just about  melting it.

4 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Um...she dead, right?

Yeah, but I wanted to say Doreah the Diddler. 

4 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I really think this may have been a combination of (1) a dragon egg's huge value, regardless of the target, and (2) the FM's massive need for a dragon egg for their own purposes. Economic theory, as much as anything: Euron's the only provider of the egg, so the FM need to up their offer.

Your first reason doesn't strike me as correct. When Dany was in a market she saw rocks painted and sold as (knock off) dragon eggs. If people are selling counterfeit dragon eggs then they have to be able assume that people will think they are the real deal. A Rolex is expensive but people sell fake ones all the time. Now If you were trying to sell a counterfeit 300 carat diamond it would be a much different thing. 

While I don't deny that dragon eggs would be prohibitively expensive for most people, the sale of knock offs makes me think that if a wealthy merchant or lord really wanted one they could just buy one.

Your second reason is entirely believable.

I am a big fan of the idea that Hard Home was Doom practice for the FM and that Doom 2.0 is going to essentially be removing the burden of life from westeros. When Ned asks Varys who he works for he says the realm and when he asks him what he wants he says peace. I am totally in the camp of Varys as faceless man who his the head of project Valar Morghulis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

On the subject of Euron and the dragon egg, I've always wondered:

Was the dragon egg really that huge a price for Euron to give up? I mean, he could have got Balon killed far more easily if he really wished to, if we assume that he would have desperately wanted to hold on to the dragon egg. The ease with which he gave it away to the FM bothers me. I wonder if there is a lot more the FM have asked of him - or is it that he didn't care about the dragon egg, just like he doesn't care about the riches he's earned from his looting and plundering -  OR, did he give the dragon egg to the FM as part of some mutual deal?

So that would go back to the Kinslaying taboo, that I don't cover in the text but more on the video. We know Ramsay kills Roose in the show, but is that necessarily how it goes down in WoW? It very well could, but for now we know that even the most vindictive of folks have a taboo on kinslaying. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

This is my thinking exactly. I mean, FM seem more like they would ask him for something like, say, Silence. Something he truly cared about. Except for its monetary value the dragon egg has no real significance to Euron. 

I do believe that there is a possibility that Euron dead and being worn as a face for one of the Secret Servants that Arya spies in the house of black and white. That said, I also think that it is a possibility that this isn't the case at all. I am really up in the air. I really wish they would cancel the football season until Martin finishes this book. I am at a point where I can watch Misery and think that Kathy Bates' actions were totally understandable.

Well, I don't think you're entirely wrong about TFM general actions i.e. asking for something of personal worth, but again. If they weaponized dragon eggs to destroy old Valyria, that is reason enough to get a hold of this nuclear device. Now all they need is the manual on how to...which is why Jaqen is at the Citadel. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, TheDailyPlanetos said:

Well, I don't think you're entirely wrong about TFM general actions i.e. asking for something of personal worth, but again. If they weaponized dragon eggs to destroy old Valyria, that is reason enough to get a hold of this nuclear device. Now all they need is the manual on how to...which is why Jaqen is at the Citadel. 

Jaquen at the Citadel is still unclear to me. It is my belief that he was in the black cells because Varys had brokered the Ned takes the black deal. He was to kill and steal face of Ned and then use influence at the wall. With the way people loved Ned in the north he could do all manner of crazy shit it would be decades before anyone questioned him.

 

I think the trip to the citadel was plan B.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As was briefly touched upon above, given the prophecy that gold from Caasterly Rock would bring about the doom, and the theory given in the world book that the assassination of too many of the mages holding the 14 flames back, combined with the Lannisters using gold from Casterly Rock to buy Brightroar, it would seem that the FM were paid with that same gold to kill a fire mage by one of the 40 families, and that kicked off the doom.

I've heard the dragon egg stuff before and have to point out that it is completely baseless.  It's just a thought someone had once and should not be taken as more than that, there is nothing in the books pointing towards it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

It might be because the FM were really desperate for a dragon egg? Need can work both ways.

Yeah this was somewhat my line of thinking. Maybe it was not just the dragon egg, he might have found some other really obscure magical stuff in Asshai/Valyria (wherever he sailed) and he may have made some deal with the FM.

That would completely knock out the concept of the FM being a simple death cult with no agenda of their own, which I suspected was a lie they were telling Arya anyway.

3 hours ago, YOVMO said:

This is my thinking exactly. I mean, FM seem more like they would ask him for something like, say, Silence. Something he truly cared about. Except for its monetary value the dragon egg has no real significance to Euron. 

I do believe that there is a possibility that Euron dead and being worn as a face for one of the Secret Servants that Arya spies in the house of black and white. That said, I also think that it is a possibility that this isn't the case at all. I am really up in the air. I really wish they would cancel the football season until Martin finishes this book. I am at a point where I can watch Misery and think that Kathy Bates' actions were totally understandable.

LOL :P  Don't get me started dude, he was saying he'd have it done by September of last year....:|

2 hours ago, TheDailyPlanetos said:

So that would go back to the Kinslaying taboo, that I don't cover in the text but more on the video. We know Ramsay kills Roose in the show, but is that necessarily how it goes down in WoW? It very well could, but for now we know that even the most vindictive of folks have a taboo on kinslaying. 

Spoilers for Aeron 1, TWOW:

Spoiler

It is revealed in this chapter that Euron has personally killed two of his brothers with his own hands, so he has absolutely no qualms about kinslaying.

 

2 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

As was briefly touched upon above, given the prophecy that gold from Caasterly Rock would bring about the doom, and the theory given in the world book that the assassination of too many of the mages holding the 14 flames back, combined with the Lannisters using gold from Casterly Rock to buy Brightroar, it would seem that the FM were paid with that same gold to kill a fire mage by one of the 40 families, and that kicked off the doom.

I've heard the dragon egg stuff before and have to point out that it is completely baseless.  It's just a thought someone had once and should not be taken as more than that, there is nothing in the books pointing towards it.

One wonders if that family was the Targaryens themselves, as they seemed to have profited the maximum from the Doom, becoming the sole dragonlords in the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×