[Spoilers Everything] The Faceless Men End Game

[Ser Harly of Southwell]

7 hours ago, DutchArya said:

What side would the FM be on in the War? The Others or the side fighting them... which most likely will include Dragons?

 

 

 

Do they have to choose a side? Wouldn't they just fight both? 

(btw, just the same way I feel about this election  )

[Greywater-Watch]

ADWD, "The Ugly Little Girl", plague face to Arya: "Death holds no sweetness in this house. We are not warriors, nor soldiers, nor swaggering bravos puffed up with pride. We do not kill to serve some lord, to fatten our purses, to stroke our vanity. We never give the gift to please ourselves. Nor do we choose the ones we kill. We are but servants of the God of Many Faces."

As long as this description of the order of the Faceless Men stands uncontradicted, it is hard to argue, they had a plan of their own.

 

[spauldo17]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 10:38 AM, TheDailyPlanetos said:

Hi Everyone, I spent some time doing some research on Martin's epic assassins in an attempt to reveal their end game. Although the general basis for the theory isn't unique I think some of the evidence and ancillary info will be new territory. These are the cliff notes, but check out my video here FACELESS MEN THEORY, it dives into a more extensive review. 
In a conversation between Arya and the high priest of the house of black and white known as the kindly man (or Jaqen H’ghar in the tv show), we learn that the Faceless men originated in the slave pits of Old Valyria. He speaks of the slaves that worked in the Valyrian mines and the wickedness of their masters. Often the slaves would uncover magical creatures such as fire wyrms that would go on to wreak havoc amongst them making survival particularly volatile. It's from this that we learn of the origin of The Many Faced god and the origin of TFM. When Arya asks The Kindly Man why TFM were bestowing their "gift" to the slaves as opposed to the masters, he alludes to the fact that they did but it's a story for another time.

So based on this, it would make sense that TFM had some role in bringing about the Doom of Valyria. How would they do this? Reddit user ShopeIV puts forth a theory that claims the FM learned how to weaponize dragon eggs. It is still uncertain in the history of ASOIAF, how exactly dragon eggs are hatched, but it’s claimed to be quite volatile. We do see Daenerys hatch her three, and it’s thought to be a combination of Fire and Blood that does the trick, but that is way oversimplifying it I’m sure. Her intuition to step into the flames at the right time is typically cited. Lord Alester Florent, lord of dragonstone in Stannis Baratheon’s absence, quotes just a few of the tragedies that have befallen those who have attempted to hatch eggs. We’re not going down the Summerhall rabbit hole in this video, but we’re working on a pretty cool Summerhall theory that will be released in the next few weeks. 

In the prologue of AFFC we are introduced to Pate, a novice at the citadel who is drinking in a tavern.  He is approached by a man who calls himself an alchemist and attempts to bribe Pate to steal a skeleton key to the Citadel from his senile old maester.  Pate at first declines the offer but then decides to in order to afford the maidenhead of a girl he has a crush on. After the deal is struck Pate is believed to have died at the end of the prologue but not before pulling back the hood of the alchemist revealing a face that is described as being identical to the face Jaqen H’ghar had assumed when leaving Arya.  What would he be looking for?  In a Dance with Dragons, Tyrion reflects about many tomes that are contained in the depths of the citadel.  Chiefly among these is A Death of Dragons which could easily detail ways to kill and perhaps even hatch dragons.  So….how the hell would the FM even get something as rare as a dragon egg?  Easily apparently.  Euron Greyjoy speaks to Victarion during A Feast of Crows about how he had come across a dragon egg but threw it into the sea in one of his darker moods.  This of course is Euron covering his tracks.  In reality, though it hasn’t been explained explicitly, Euron used the dragon egg as payment to the FM in order to kill Balon (who was seen being killed in a vision by a man with no face) so that he could ascend the seastone chair. There is no set price for the FM to assassinate someone but rather their price depends upon what you have to offer as payment.  A dragon egg would definitely cover the killing of a king of the iron islands.

As a caveat to this theory, there is a separate theory that holds the FM as followers of The Great Other, the one who empowers the white walkers, basically the opposing force to R’hollor, the god Melissandre worships. There are some nice points being made about how the FM would love giving their masters gift to all living beings on Planetos, but that essentially turns them into a death cult and makes their arc a little lame.  Followers of the great other are not technically alive.  A wight would be described as the text book definition of undead.  Dead but still animated. This flies in the face of everything the FM stand for.  The great other perverts the gift that the FM impart upon those chosen by the many faced god.

This theory sure is interesting, and the fantasy nerd in me thinks it would be fascinating, but the realist and pragmatist in me feels obligated to point out that you are making many large assumptions in your theory that simply aren't supported (yet anyway) by the source material.

Firstly, when the Kindly Man tells arya that eventually they did bestow the gift to their masters, it is a HUGE leap to say that they had a role in the Doom of Valyria.  Where is the evidence to support this?  All he is saying is that at some point TFM did, in fact, kill their masters.  The Doom was (I believe) caused by those in Valyria essentially overworking the volcanoes.  Even if I'm wrong about the cause of the Doom your leap is a very large one, with no actual evidence to back it up.

Secondly, there is also  no book-evidence to say that TFM learned to weaponize dragon eggs.  Yes the book alludes to the fact that many bad things have happened to people who have meddled with dragon eggs in hopes of hatching them, but it says nothing of the nature of the bad things.  It certainly doesn't imply they exploded or somehow caused a great deal of damage thus making weaponization beneficial.

Thirdly, when talking about the book "A Death of Dragons"  you say that it could detail how to hatch dragons.  This is another unsupported assumption, and one that actually runs counter to the title of the book.  The book is clearly written to detail to the reader how to kill dragons, or how the death of dragons came about.  Having a chapter that said, "oh by the way, I know this book is about killing dragons but if you want to hatch some more here's the how to"  seems too convenient to your theory.

Fourthly, when you talk about Euron throwing a dragon's egg into the ocean you say, "this of course is Euron covering his tracks."  I disagree. You can't just say "of course" and expect it to be correct.  The term "of course" doesn't belong in this sentence because it is only an opinion held by you.  Knowing how unhinged and senile Euron truly is it would not be shocking whatsoever to learn that he did, indeed, throw an egg into the ocean.  In fact in a literary sense it adds much more to the story because it illustrates just how crazy he is.  He would willingly throw away something that valuable, it adds to his lore. 

Lastly, saying that "this hasn't been explained explicitly but I know it's true" is as good as saying nothing at all.  We simply don't know that this dragon egg, that Euron himself says he threw into the ocean, was used as payment to the faceless men.  You, yourself, said that the price depends on what they have to offer, a dragon's egg seems like an incredibly steep price for one murder.  You know how much gold people in Essos were offering for dragon's eggs.

Your idea is very entertaining, and I do believe there is more to TFM than we know right now and it's an intensely fascinating subject, but you make 5 enormous leaps in your analysis, and the odds say that at least one or more will be incorrect.  And unfortunately your theory is built upon the foundation of these 5 assumptions, and if one assumption proves to be false, your theory will crumble under the weight

 

[Maester of Valyria]

21 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Maybe, but a couple of things to keep in mind. A 100 mile long 700 foot high wall made out of ice is implausible in the first place. I am fairly certain that everyone is in agreement that the wall is held together with more than just ice...but rather with magic. So in the same way that a obsidian dagger would seem like the most obvious tool to instantly kill an ice zombie in one shot, it may very well be that dragon fire is something that might disrupt whatever magic the wall has in it. After all, Dragonsteel (which we are kind of assuming is VS) has the power to kill the others so I am thinking that there is something special about dragon fire that might attack the wall in a way that isn't just about  melting it.

Of course the Wall is composed of more than just ice: I mentioned the defensive spells in my post. And while dragon fire may have the potential to disrupt whatever spells lie within the Wall (presumably allowing the Others and wights to pass through?) such a huge obstruction is still a significant physical obstacle in its own right. Even if dragons can melt the wall, it'll take them some time to completely level sections of it.

21 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Yeah, but I wanted to say Doreah the Diddler. 

 

Your first reason doesn't strike me as correct. When Dany was in a market she saw rocks painted and sold as (knock off) dragon eggs. If people are selling counterfeit dragon eggs then they have to be able assume that people will think they are the real deal. A Rolex is expensive but people sell fake ones all the time. Now If you were trying to sell a counterfeit 300 carat diamond it would be a much different thing. 

While I don't deny that dragon eggs would be prohibitively expensive for most people, the sale of knock offs makes me think that if a wealthy merchant or lord really wanted one they could just buy one.

Your second reason is entirely believable.

I am a big fan of the idea that Hard Home was Doom practice for the FM and that Doom 2.0 is going to essentially be removing the burden of life from westeros. When Ned asks Varys who he works for he says the realm and when he asks him what he wants he says peace. I am totally in the camp of Varys as faceless man who his the head of project Valar Morghulis.

Yes, but don't forget that Dany had handled and extensively scrutinised genuine dragon eggs, so she knew what real ones looked like. The vast majority of people (by virtue of the eggs' rarity) won't have had that opportunity. I'm sure there are a few gullible merchants who could be tricked into thinking the fakes are the real deal (etc). Actual fossilised dragon eggs are incredibly rare.

Thanks; that was the one I thought was most likely as well.

While I did publish a theory not to long ago making a (I believe) extremely cogent argument for Hardhome being a volcano, I'm not that taken with the idea of the Faceless Men using it as a practice round; although I mentioned the possibility I made some not-unreasonable effort to dismiss it. Feel free to check it out, it's the top link in my signature.

My preffered explanation for Hardhome is that the Children of the Forest did it, and your use of the phrase 'the burden of life from westeros' got me thinking. Do you suppose that the FM could be working with the Children, and not the Others (or with them, depending on your opinion on the Others' origin)? Perhaps the FM are of the belief that humanity should never have interfered with the Dawn Races' affairs, or maybe they're even backed up/founded by the Children (face-switching/skinchanging?). Just a thought, I'm not too up to date on the underlying FM theory.

 

20 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

As was briefly touched upon above, given the prophecy that gold from Caasterly Rock would bring about the doom, and the theory given in the world book that the assassination of too many of the mages holding the 14 flames back, combined with the Lannisters using gold from Casterly Rock to buy Brightroar, it would seem that the FM were paid with that same gold to kill a fire mage by one of the 40 families, and that kicked off the doom.

I've heard the dragon egg stuff before and have to point out that it is completely baseless.  It's just a thought someone had once and should not be taken as more than that, there is nothing in the books pointing towards it.

I agree with both your points: Valyria had plenty of wealth streaming in before the Lannisters ever paid through the nose for a shiny sword, some of that other gold could have started the assassinations.

As for the whole dragon egg = nuke thing, I've never bought that either. I do firmly believe that magic can cause volcanoes to erupt though.

 

18 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Yeah this was somewhat my line of thinking. Maybe it was not just the dragon egg, he might have found some other really obscure magical stuff in Asshai/Valyria (wherever he sailed) and he may have made some deal with the FM.

That would completely knock out the concept of the FM being a simple death cult with no agenda of their own, which I suspected was a lie they were telling Arya anyway.

I imagine that the FM will go along with the agendas of whomever hires them, provided they can stay focussed on their long term goals.

 

18 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

One wonders if that family was the Targaryens themselves, as they seemed to have profited the maximum from the Doom, becoming the sole dragonlords in the world.

Interesting idea. There is speculation that the Targaryens were in fact forcibly ejected from Valyria instead of leaving voluntarily. On the other, Daenys having her dream seems like a fairly well established 'fact'. Input from people who find the prophetic dreams interesting welcome!

 

17 hours ago, Ser Harly of Southwell said:

Do they have to choose a side? Wouldn't they just fight both? 

(btw, just the same way I feel about this election  )

Just don't let Orange Jaime Lannister in, ok? I'm British: being the political laughing stock of the world isn't fun. At least Older Cersei is competent.

 

1 hour ago, spauldo17 said:

Firstly, when the Kindly Man tells arya that eventually they did bestow the gift to their masters, it is a HUGE leap to say that they had a role in the Doom of Valyria.  Where is the evidence to support this?  All he is saying is that at some point TFM did, in fact, kill their masters.  The Doom was (I believe) caused by those in Valyria essentially overworking the volcanoes.  Even if I'm wrong about the cause of the Doom your leap is a very large one, with no actual evidence to back it up.

It's a very popular theory that the FM caused the Doom. The two main strands are that they either assassinated the mages keeping the volcanoes at bay, or they used dragon eggs to blow the volcanoes up. I subscribe to the theory when there's an R in the month, and when I do I lean heavily towards the former strand.

Many of your criticisms of the OP seem to be based in 'this is speculation, you have no proof'. While of course this is a valid point, this is a fan-theory forum: speculation based on spinning together multiple other theories is the best content on here (IMHO).

 

[Clegane'sPup]

Can anyone walk into the HoBaW and drink from the dark pool and die or do they need to be screened first? How do people petition to have a FM kill someone? Is there a go to guy who carries the message to someone higher up?

FfC c.22 and DwD the Blind Girl contain a bit of the same information about priests and the beginnings of the FM. Most of the info about the HoBaW and the FM comes in Arya chapters.  Except that little burp in an Eddard chapter about the doors of Mott’s place being black & white.

The interior of the HoBaW is described as having thirty different gods standing along the walls, surrounded by their little lights. The kindly man most of the time refers to the” Many faced God” as if it is an entity unto itself which encompasses all of the multiple gods in Martin’s world.

The FM seem to be few in number and they seem to like the idea that the death of the chosen one occurs as an accident.

The kindly man said to Arya:

"My wants do not matter," said the kindly man. "It may be that the Many-Faced God has led you here to be His instrument, but when I look at you I see a child . . . and worse, a girl child. Many have served Him of Many Faces through the centuries, but only a few of His servants have been women. Women bring life into the world. We bring the gift of death. No one can do both."

In FfC c.22 the kindly man tells Arya the “tale of our beginnings.” It is way too much to info to quote. He sorta repeats that info in a short version in the Blind Girl.

In DwD the Blind Girl he asks her: “And are you a god, to decide who should live and who should die?” he asked her. We give the gift to those marked by Him of Many Faces, after prayers and sacrifice. So it has been since the beginning.”

Who decides who is marked before it gets put forth for table discussion. I’m referencing the meeting of the eleven that Arya attended.

Assuming that the alchemist that kills Pate is a FM, assuming that the FM are anti dragon, and assuming they know about Dany’s three flying fire breathing dragons I would assume that they do not want any dragons or dragonlords wreaking havoc. So, I’m gonna say that the FM that is supposedly Pate is looking for something that will put an end to the dragons. The intrigue is that this Pate is in some way connected to Marwyn who has left the Citadel to go find Dany before “the grey sheep send a man.” I wonder why Marwyn thinks he must get to Dany before the Citadel’s man?

Urine is a lunatic. A smart one to be sure. Euron reminds me of the WD character Negan. The character does not strike me as grey which is mixture of black and white.

I think Urine lied about having a dragon egg. I do not think that the FM had anything to do with the destruction of Valyria.

[sweetsunray]

On 11-10-2016 at 9:06 PM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

On the subject of Euron and the dragon egg, I've always wondered:

Was the dragon egg really that huge a price for Euron to give up? I mean, he could have got Balon killed far more easily if he really wished to, if we assume that he would have desperately wanted to hold on to the dragon egg. The ease with which he gave it away to the FM bothers me. I wonder if there is a lot more the FM have asked of him - or is it that he didn't care about the dragon egg, just like he doesn't care about the riches he's earned from his looting and plundering -  OR, did he give the dragon egg to the FM as part of some mutual deal?

I think the FM didn't know he had a dragonhorn

I think Euron actually told the truth when he said he tossed it overboard as a "sacrifice" to the Drowned God. The payment is supposed to be a sacrifice (but for example in the waif's scenario, the father's sacrifice was more a blessing for all involved, including the waif). He's got psychopathy alarms going off by the dozen. His bragging about the draggon egg is a tell imo. While they are pathological liars, psychopaths let slip the truth on purpose too, to test the listener, for fun, or to brag abotu something they're bitter about. For example when LF has his meeting with Nestor Royce regarding the inquiry into Lysa's death, at some point he says, "I did it," or something in that order. But Nestor Royce reassures him he's not to blame, because he couldn't know how obsessed Marillion was, etc. That was a typical tell scenario, where LF enjoys slipping the truth, in circumstances that the other person will dismiss it. 

We have the same thing with Euron and the egg. Suddenly out of the blue he reveals he had a dragon egg and chucked it over the rail, as if it's something to brag about and Vic thinks him nuts for it, or believes it's a lie. There's a bit of an 180° rule when psychopaths do or say something (whether it's a lie or the truth). Here the lie is not imo that he chucked it overboard, but that he doesn't care about it. His compulsion to mention the egg at all, imo implies he's actually seething over the fact that he had to pay for it with a dragon egg. And it would have been all the more annoying to him, if the egg was indeed lost forever at the bottom of the Narrow Sea. Euron makes light of it, but is imo enraged over it. So, I think he's telling the truth but doing a 180 on how he actually feels about it.

But he could afford himself the loss of the egg, because he had a dragonhorn, while Dany hatched dragons, and he managed to hold the info on the dragonhorn back. Perhaps it was officially in someone else's possession at the time.  

[John Suburbs]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 4:57 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

As was briefly touched upon above, given the prophecy that gold from Caasterly Rock would bring about the doom, and the theory given in the world book that the assassination of too many of the mages holding the 14 flames back, combined with the Lannisters using gold from Casterly Rock to buy Brightroar, it would seem that the FM were paid with that same gold to kill a fire mage by one of the 40 families, and that kicked off the doom.

I've heard the dragon egg stuff before and have to point out that it is completely baseless.  It's just a thought someone had once and should not be taken as more than that, there is nothing in the books pointing towards it.

Wow, here is a crazy thought: The Lannister gold became the Iron Throne's gold when Tywin paid off its debt to the IB. Then LF embezzles that gold right back to the IB where it is loaned out to a certain wealthy cheesemonger who has come across a pirate who is looking to sell not one but three dragon eggs. The gold from that transaction goes to the HoBaW for the BG job, and the HoBaW, being an arm of the IB, deposits it right back into the bank.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

9 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

While I did publish a theory not to long ago making a (I believe) extremely cogent argument for Hardhome being a volcano, I'm not that taken with the idea of the Faceless Men using it as a practice round; although I mentioned the possibility I made some not-unreasonable effort to dismiss it. Feel free to check it out, it's the top link in my signature.

My preffered explanation for Hardhome is that the Children of the Forest did it, and your use of the phrase 'the burden of life from westeros' got me thinking. Do you suppose that the FM could be working with the Children, and not the Others (or with them, depending on your opinion on the Others' origin)? Perhaps the FM are of the belief that humanity should never have interfered with the Dawn Races' affairs, or maybe they're even backed up/founded by the Children (face-switching/skinchanging?). Just a thought, I'm not too up to date on the underlying FM theory.

 

Gonna go check out your theory   I'm pretty sure it was something to do with fire magic because of the uncanny similarities with the Doom of Valyria and also Stygai and the Shadowlands (there are said to be demons and dragons living in cliff caves there as well, there's a river called Ash flowing through it, etc.) I'm not sure if the COTF were involved because of the strong fire associations - I have a suspicion it was probably something to do with firewyrms under the earth or some fire magic gone terribly wrong (seems the common denominator between Asshai and Valyria.) There was a theory I had read on the forums that posited that Valyria might have tried to take control of Westeros much before Aegon the Conqueror by sending a stealth team of their guys to Hardhome.

9 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I imagine that the FM will go along with the agendas of whomever hires them, provided they can stay focussed on their long term goals.

They probably get their trainees to carry out the murders for whoever hires them. But they seem to have a long-term agenda of their own, which is probably in league with the IB and maybe even the political entities of Braavos as a city.

9 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Interesting idea. There is speculation that the Targaryens were in fact forcibly ejected from Valyria instead of leaving voluntarily. On the other, Daenys having her dream seems like a fairly well established 'fact'. Input from people who find the prophetic dreams interesting welcome!

The question here is - is the prophetic ability a quality of the Valyrian blood or just exclusively the Targs? Because if it was Valyrian blood, you'd expect some other families would have got the memo as well.

9 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Just don't let Orange Jaime Lannister in, ok? I'm British: being the political laughing stock of the world isn't fun. At least Older Cersei is competent.

Hey, Jaime Lannister is far wittier and eloquent (and much less misogynistic)  

9 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

It's a very popular theory that the FM caused the Doom. The two main strands are that they either assassinated the mages keeping the volcanoes at bay, or they used dragon eggs to blow the volcanoes up. I subscribe to the theory when there's an R in the month, and when I do I lean heavily towards the former strand.

As @aryagonnakill#2 mentioned upthread, the World Book all but tells us explicitly that the FM caused the doom.

- We get information about the powerful dragonlord families of Valyria assassinating rival families' sorcerers due to a constant struggle for dominance in the region

- We are also told that the Fourteen Flames are only kept in check because of the application of subduing spells by these sorcerers

- The Valyrians had a prophecy that the end of Valyria would be brought about by the gold of Casterly Rock

- We learn that House Lannister paid enough gold to "raise an army" to purchase Brightroar, their VS sword, from Valyria

So the logical conclusion is - whichever family sold Brightroar to the Lannisters, hired a Faceless Man with that gold to assassinate probably multiple rival families' sorcerers, possibly setting off the sequence of events which would bring about the Doom.

.

7 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Can anyone walk into the HoBaW and drink from the dark pool and die or do they need to be screened first? How do people petition to have a FM kill someone? Is there a go to guy who carries the message to someone higher up?

This passage seems to hint that the black pool is open to anyone who visits the temple; but you might have to contact the priest for an actual assassination:

Quote

Worshipers came to the House of Black and White every day. Most came alone and sat alone; they lit candles at one altar or another, prayed beside the pool, and sometimes wept. A few drank from the black cup and went to sleep; more did not drink. There were no services, no songs, no paeans of praise to please the god. The temple was never full. From time to time, a worshiper would ask to see a priest, and the kindly man or the waif would take him down into the sanctum, but that did not happen often.

(AFFC ch.22)

 

7 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Assuming that the alchemist that kills Pate is a FM, assuming that the FM are anti dragon, and assuming they know about Dany’s three flying fire breathing dragons I would assume that they do not want any dragons or dragonlords wreaking havoc. So, I’m gonna say that the FM that is supposedly Pate is looking for something that will put an end to the dragons. The intrigue is that this Pate is in some way connected to Marwyn who has left the Citadel to go find Dany before “the grey sheep send a man.” I wonder why Marwyn thinks he must get to Dany before the Citadel’s man?

The leading theory is that Jaqen/Pate's looking for a book called 'The Death of Dragons', which Tyrion in ADWD says is hidden in the deepest vaults of the Citadel. Marwyn for some reason seems to be pro-Dany, and probably wants to get to her to warn her of the anti-dragon agenda of the Maesters before they send one of their own to her, I'm guessing.

 

7 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I think Urine lied about having a dragon egg.

That's very much possible as well.  He might have been bragging to Vic.

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I think the FM didn't know he had a dragonhorn

I think Euron actually told the truth when he said he tossed it overboard as a "sacrifice" to the Drowned God. The payment is supposed to be a sacrifice (but for example in the waif's scenario, the father's sacrifice was more a blessing for all involved, including the waif). He's got psychopathy alarms going off by the dozen. His bragging about the draggon egg is a tell imo. While they are pathological liars, psychopaths let slip the truth on purpose too, to test the listener, for fun, or to brag abotu something they're bitter about. For example when LF has his meeting with Nestor Royce regarding the inquiry into Lysa's death, at some point he says, "I did it," or something in that order. But Nestor Royce reassures him he's not to blame, because he couldn't know how obsessed Marillion was, etc. That was a typical tell scenario, where LF enjoys slipping the truth, in circumstances that the other person will dismiss it. 

We have the same thing with Euron and the egg. Suddenly out of the blue he reveals he had a dragon egg and chucked it over the rail, as if it's something to brag about and Vic thinks him nuts for it, or believes it's a lie. There's a bit of an 180° rule when psychopaths do or say something (whether it's a lie or the truth). Here the lie is not imo that he chucked it overboard, but that he doesn't care about it. His compulsion to mention the egg at all, imo implies he's actually seething over the fact that he had to pay for it with a dragon egg. And it would have been all the more annoying to him, if the egg was indeed lost forever at the bottom of the Narrow Sea. Euron makes light of it, but is imo enraged over it. So, I think he's telling the truth but doing a 180 on how he actually feels about it.

But he could afford himself the loss of the egg, because he had a dragonhorn, while Dany hatched dragons, and he managed to hold the info on the dragonhorn back. Perhaps it was officially in someone else's possession at the time.  

That's a very interesting explanation and has given me something to chew on  But if we assume he felt terrible about throwing the dragon egg into the sea, it still doesn't seem like a sacrifice proportionate to the person. The guy seems to be totally loaded with riches, loot, Dragonhorn (that's the real valuable, as you said, because that can be used to control Dany's already grown dragons) and then, from TWOW:

Spoiler

Valyrian steel armor

Looks like the FM did a really shoddy job of investigating his assets before putting forward their asking price, I guess  

Seriously, though, LF in AGOT is hesitant to hire the FM because of their asking price to kill a Targ princess, the waif's father gave up 2/3rd of his wealth and his daughter, what did Euron really give up? It's a bit difficult to believe that the FM, with their reputation would have let him off that easily, which is why @Maester of Valyria's suggestion that there's some kind of deal going on seems more likely to me.

[sweetsunray]

36 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Seriously, though, LF in AGOT is hesitant to hire the FM because of their asking price to kill a Targ princess, the waif's father gave up 2/3rd of his wealth and his daughter, what did Euron really give up? It's a bit difficult to believe that the FM, with their reputation would have let him off that easily, which is why @Maester of Valyria's suggestion that there's some kind of deal going on seems more likely to me.

Well it's half the wealth that waif's father gave + waif. The waif is an intruiging case. The waif was the father's heir. Normally everything would have gone to the waif upon his death - that would be all his wealth. That's why her stepmother went to the FM to hire an FM to have her killed so that her child would become the heir. Now imagine that the FM asked less of her than they asked the father: they "only" demanded her child (since at that point in time, she would have no wealth to her name). But that completely defeats the stepmother's purpose for having the waif killed, right? We don't know what exactly they demanded of the stepmother. But it is not an impossible hypothesis that demanded her to give up her own child to the HoBaW. Whatever they asked, I am quite certain it was a price that made it ridiculous for her to go through with it.

LF's case suggests the price may become nonsensical for someone's plans or intentions. He says that to have a merchant killed it would cost him half a company of sellswords. In other words - LF thinks he can do more with a whole company of sellswords on his own, than pay that amount of money to kill the merchant (or whomever he's speaking of).

But Arya only has to throw an axe into a burning cage and gets offered 3 names for it, and that could have been Twyin + Cersei + Joffrey if she wanted it.

Ok, back to the waif's case. The stepmother likes LF thinks it's not worth it, and she can do it on her own instead. And she botches it since the waif lives and she gets find out. Unfortunately, the poison has harmed the waif in such a way that she will be forever in a child's body and can never become a fertile woman with the prospect of a loving marriage and having her own family. She lives, but her social life and feudal life is pretty much symbolically killed. But she's still the father's heir. Despite her physical "deformity", forever locked in a child's body, she still ages nevertheless. If the father dies and she inherits everything, she might still be considered an easy victim catch for some forced marriage by a mercenary sellsword like Bronn or a Ramsay-type of person, right? The waif's father knows very well that his daughter who is heiress is either doomed to be a social outcast or the bride of a mercenary man who appropriates everything for himself. Why not another man? Because other men who are honest enough not to take her wealth for themselves would prefer to wed a woman who can have children. So, when the FM demand the waif as their price, they actually help the waif AND the father. The father is secure that his daughter will have a productive life with people who will respect her for her skill, with colleagues. Within the HoBaW, the waif is not a social outcast, even if she does not move into society outside of the FM. As for half the wealth. You can see it as a lifetime of paying board for the waif. And instead of risking that his bloodline will lose all of his wealth, he gets to keep half that his second child can inherit. 

Yes, Euron has the Valyrian Steel armor. But what does he want the most? Euron doesn't just want to be king of the IB, but he wants to be an emperor. He knows he needs dragons for that. Would a greedy man be content with one dragon or would he rather have 2? And very likely the dragonhorn may not actually have been in his posession yet and he probably thought it a risky thing anyway. He could have a big fortune, but the fortune does not get him an empire. So, the FM asked the dragon egg for a price. If he gives away the egg/tosses it overboard as they ask and he had no dragonhorn, then the egg sacrifice is a self-defeating price to achieve his goal (not IB dominion but Westeros or empire dominion). When he paid the price, the FM would conclude that he'll be content with just being IB king. But Euron imo outsmarted them (because of drinking of nightshade?). He may have known beforehand where to get a dragonhorn, but he refrained from posessnig it before he asked the FM's price. He agreed to, because he had a back-up plan. But it still stings. And it can only sting imo if he actually did have to toss it overboard. It's the only way it will be forever lost to him. If he gives it to the FM, they could sell it for money and he can buy it again from the one who bought it. But it's completely worthless at the bottom of the sea. Euron doesn't care about money. That's why they never asked for money. Euron wants power, and he wants dragons to have power. So the only price that can sting for him is the sacrifice of the egg. 

[Clegane'sPup]

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Wow, here is a crazy thought: The Lannister gold became the Iron Throne's gold when Tywin paid off its debt to the IB. Then LF embezzles that gold right back to the IB where it is loaned out to a certain wealthy cheesemonger who has come across a pirate who is looking to sell not one but three dragon eggs. The gold from that transaction goes to the HoBaW for the BG job, and the HoBaW, being an arm of the IB, deposits it right back into the bank.

John, this is an interesting idea. I've read threads about LF having a connection to Braavos.

[John Suburbs]

11 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

John, this is an interesting idea. I've read threads about LF having a connection to Braavos.

Well, his family is said to come from Braavos.

But I think it's funny that, just like in the real world, no matter who begs, buys, borrows or steals, the money always comes back to the bank.

[Clegane'sPup]

16 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

This passage seems to hint that the black pool is open to anyone who visits the temple; but you might have to contact the priest for an actual assassination:

Quote

Worshipers came to the House of Black and White every day. Most came alone and sat alone; they lit candles at one altar or another, prayed beside the pool, and sometimes wept. A few drank from the black cup and went to sleep; more did not drink. There were no services, no songs, no paeans of praise to please the god. The temple was never full. From time to time, a worshiper would ask to see a priest, and the kindly man or the waif would take him down into the sanctum, but that did not happen often.

(AFFC ch.22)

FfC c.6 At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony. The look of it reminded her somehow of the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell. The doors are watching me, she thought. She pushed upon both doors at once with the flat of her gloved hands, but neither one would budge. Locked and barred. "Let me in, you stupid," she said. "I crossed the narrow sea." She made a fist and pounded. "Jaqen told me to come. I have the iron coin." She pulled it from her pouch and held it up. "See? Valar morghulis." The doors made no reply, except to open.

 

The doors did not open for Arya until she said Valar morghulis. From what I have read that is a phrase in High Valyrian meaning all men must die. That is why I asked if anyone can walk into the HoBaW and drink from the dark pool and die or do they need to be screened first?

So I’m thinking that either Arya is a special case or maybe it is too early in the day and the temple doors were not yet open to the public.

Sure Euron could have given a dragon egg to the HoBaW to pay for Balon’s death. I just gotta remember Asha’s remark about Euron’s ship being sighted in port before Balon’s death. I best go scrounge up that quote. Cause I might have to eat crow.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well it's half the wealth that waif's father gave + waif. The waif is an intruiging case. The waif was the father's heir. Normally everything would have gone to the waif upon his death - that would be all his wealth. That's why her stepmother went to the FM to hire an FM to have her killed so that her child would become the heir. Now imagine that the FM asked less of her than they asked the father: they "only" demanded her child (since at that point in time, she would have no wealth to her name). But that completely defeats the stepmother's purpose for having the waif killed, right? We don't know what exactly they demanded of the stepmother. But it is not an impossible hypothesis that demanded her to give up her own child to the HoBaW. Whatever they asked, I am quite certain it was a price that made it ridiculous for her to go through with it.

LF's case suggests the price may become nonsensical for someone's plans or intentions. He says that to have a merchant killed it would cost him half a company of sellswords. In other words - LF thinks he can do more with a whole company of sellswords on his own, than pay that amount of money to kill the merchant (or whomever he's speaking of).

But Arya only has to throw an axe into a burning cage and gets offered 3 names for it, and that could have been Twyin + Cersei + Joffrey if she wanted it.

Ok, back to the waif's case. The stepmother likes LF thinks it's not worth it, and she can do it on her own instead. And she botches it since the waif lives and she gets find out. Unfortunately, the poison has harmed the waif in such a way that she will be forever in a child's body and can never become a fertile woman with the prospect of a loving marriage and having her own family. She lives, but her social life and feudal life is pretty much symbolically killed. But she's still the father's heir. Despite her physical "deformity", forever locked in a child's body, she still ages nevertheless. If the father dies and she inherits everything, she might still be considered an easy victim catch for some forced marriage by a mercenary sellsword like Bronn or a Ramsay-type of person, right? The waif's father knows very well that his daughter who is heiress is either doomed to be a social outcast or the bride of a mercenary man who appropriates everything for himself. Why not another man? Because other men who are honest enough not to take her wealth for themselves would prefer to wed a woman who can have children. So, when the FM demand the waif as their price, they actually help the waif AND the father. The father is secure that his daughter will have a productive life with people who will respect her for her skill, with colleagues. Within the HoBaW, the waif is not a social outcast, even if she does not move into society outside of the FM. As for half the wealth. You can see it as a lifetime of paying board for the waif. And instead of risking that his bloodline will lose all of his wealth, he gets to keep half that his second child can inherit. 

Yes, Euron has the Valyrian Steel armor. But what does he want the most? Euron doesn't just want to be king of the IB, but he wants to be an emperor. He knows he needs dragons for that. Would a greedy man be content with one dragon or would he rather have 2? And very likely the dragonhorn may not actually have been in his posession yet and he probably thought it a risky thing anyway. He could have a big fortune, but the fortune does not get him an empire. So, the FM asked the dragon egg for a price. If he gives away the egg/tosses it overboard as they ask and he had no dragonhorn, then the egg sacrifice is a self-defeating price to achieve his goal (not IB dominion but Westeros or empire dominion). When he paid the price, the FM would conclude that he'll be content with just being IB king. But Euron imo outsmarted them (because of drinking of nightshade?). He may have known beforehand where to get a dragonhorn, but he refrained from posessnig it before he asked the FM's price. He agreed to, because he had a back-up plan. But it still stings. And it can only sting imo if he actually did have to toss it overboard. It's the only way it will be forever lost to him. If he gives it to the FM, they could sell it for money and he can buy it again from the one who bought it. But it's completely worthless at the bottom of the sea. Euron doesn't care about money. That's why they never asked for money. Euron wants power, and he wants dragons to have power. So the only price that can sting for him is the sacrifice of the egg. 

That's a very plausible explanation, for sure. So the waif is a special case where the FM considered it better for her to become a member of the HoBaW rather than live an outcast life, similar to Arya herself. I think from that we can infer that the FM basically, on a whole, simply work on monetary purposes and not really "personal" sacrifices  - massive sums of money can earn you the assassination you require, and if you feel it's worth it and can't do anything better with that money, you hand it over.

I think what might back up this theory of yours is the fact that it's logistically difficult for the FM to investigate every one of their clients and understand what holds the most value to them, and ask them to pay the price accordingly. It's simply easier to just ask for a massive amount of money -  for most wealthy people, they could get the killing done much more cheaply (see the Varys' attempt to poison Dany) than hand over a huge amount to the FM. Also, the fact that for most people, their children are what is going to be dearest to them, so the HoBaW should have been overflowing with child acolytes by now if they actually required a "personal sacrifice" of their clients.

Maybe the "personal sacrifice" tenet of the FM might come up when the client is not that wealthy. In those cases they might require something more from the client than a small sum of money, like in the waif's stepmother case, her child. But from the wealthier clients (LF/the Crown, the dragonlord families in Valyria, and possibly Euron) they might be content with a large sum of money.

In that case then I think we can say that Euron simply paid the FM with a dragon egg and didn't actually make a personal sacrifice by throwing it into the sea. The FM accepted the price accordingly to kill a king (Balon). That would also explain how they didn't care about the dragonhorn and all the other stuff in his possession.

 

It's possible, however, that the FM asked him to throw his coveted dragon egg into the sea to kill Balon. But then we have to assume that "killing Balon" was a task of so much importance and which could absolutely not have been carried out by some henchman of his, because of which he had to turn to the FM and give up what he wanted so badly. That's what I'm having trouble reconciling. If the dragon egg was something so hugely valuable to him, I'm pretty sure he could have found other ways to kill Balon. 

48 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The doors did not open for Arya until she said Valar morghulis. From what I have read that is a phrase in High Valyrian meaning all men must die. That is why I asked if anyone can walk into the HoBaW and drink from the dark pool and die or do they need to be screened first?

They probably have to say the phrase "Valar Morghulis" before entering the temple, but I have this feeling the phrase might be quite well-known among the Braavosi. Also, IIRC, all the bodies which Arya helps clean and prepare are those who die at the HoBaW after drinking at the black pool. Most of the faces are taken from those bodies, I guess.

Found the quote:

Quote

The dead were never hard to find. They came to the House of Black and White, prayed for an hour or a day or a year, drank sweet dark water from the pool, and stretched out on a stone bed behind one god or another. They closed their eyes, and slept, and never woke. "The gift of the Many-Faced God takes myriad forms," the kindly man told her, "but here it is always gentle." When they found a body he would say a prayer and make certain life had fled, and Arya would fetch the serving men, whose task it was to carry the dead down to the vaults. There acolytes would strip and wash the bodies. The dead men's clothes and coins and valuables went into a bin for sorting. Their cold flesh would be taken to the lower sanctum where only the priests could go; what happened in there Arya was not allowed to know. 

AFFC ch.22

 

[Maester of Valyria]

17 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Gonna go check out your theory   I'm pretty sure it was something to do with fire magic because of the uncanny similarities with the Doom of Valyria and also Stygai and the Shadowlands (there are said to be demons and dragons living in cliff caves there as well, there's a river called Ash flowing through it, etc.) I'm not sure if the COTF were involved because of the strong fire associations - I have a suspicion it was probably something to do with firewyrms under the earth or some fire magic gone terribly wrong (seems the common denominator between Asshai and Valyria.) There was a theory I had read on the forums that posited that Valyria might have tried to take control of Westeros much before Aegon the Conqueror by sending a stealth team of their guys to Hardhome.

Hope you enjoy it .

Although it's difficult to tell because we know so little about the Shadowlands, or the surrounding environment, it's almost certain that the Shadowlands are volcanic. There's an obvious tectonic boundary between the Shadowlands and Ulthos, the whole area is symbolically connected with fire, and it's right next to the 'ring of fire' in the Jade Sea. I doubt that the Children were involved given the improbable distances involved and lack of direct evidence: this is an area I feel I can see the GEotD having a hand in (I lean towards 'fire magic gone wrong'.

That's interesting about the Valyrian invasion theory; do you have a link? To be honest I kinda doubt that: Dragonstone and Driftmark would have been more logical targets methinks.

17 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

They probably get their trainees to carry out the murders for whoever hires them. But they seem to have a long-term agenda of their own, which is probably in league with the IB and maybe even the political entities of Braavos as a city

Yes of course: I get the feeling that the three great institutions of Braavos (the FM, the Iron Bank and the Sealord) are all working together in some way or another.

17 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

The question here is - is the prophetic ability a quality of the Valyrian blood or just exclusively the Targs? Because if it was Valyrian blood, you'd expect some other families would have got the memo as well.

Excellent point! I'd imagine it's all dragonlord families, which would lend credence to the Targs having 'dun it'.

17 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Hey, Jaime Lannister is far wittier and eloquent (and much less misogynistic)  

The analogy isn't perfect, but I think most of it's there: inherited a lot of wealth they don't know what to do with, widely despised, messed up relationships with women (especially female family members), one hand/tiny hands.

17 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

- We learn that House Lannister paid enough gold to "raise an army" to purchase Brightroar, their VS sword, from Valyria

So the logical conclusion is - whichever family sold Brightroar to the Lannisters, hired a Faceless Man with that gold to assassinate probably multiple rival families' sorcerers, possibly setting off the sequence of events which would bring about the Doom.

The thing I've never got here: the Valyrians already had plenty of gold. Why is the Lannister gold a prerequisite for hiring the assassins (other than because it's neat). Am I forgetting something?

17 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

which is why @Maester of Valyria's suggestion that there's some kind of deal going on seems more likely to me.

Not so much that Euron and the FM have a deal per se, as that the FM are gagging for a dragon egg and are willing to do almost anything to get one.

 

___________________________________________________________________

 

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well it's half the wealth that waif's father gave + waif....

snip

I love that idea, well done!

 

___________________________________________________________________

 

Quick idea about the Faceless Men's relationship with Euron:

What if the price Euron paid for the assassins' services was to sail to Valyria to undertake an expedition of some sort? Maybe the FM are forbidden/too scared/incapable of/unwilling to set foot on the Valyrian peninsula, so they got Euron to do it for them? The fact that he'd be able to loot the priceless treasures there is just a bonus for him and immaterial for the FM: as long as he gets what they want they don't care what he does.

As for what he got them, that's up for debate. It might be a dragon egg, or maybe a dragon horn, some lost science, spells or knowledge, or maybe just reconaissance.

Any ideas?

[sweetsunray]

36 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

That's a very plausible explanation, for sure. So the waif is a special case where the FM considered it better for her to become a member of the HoBaW rather than live an outcast life, similar to Arya herself. I think from that we can infer that the FM basically, on a whole, simply work on monetary purposes and not really "personal" sacrifices  - massive sums of money can earn you the assassination you require, and if you feel it's worth it and can't do anything better with that money, you hand it over.

I think what might back up this theory of yours is the fact that it's logistically difficult for the FM to investigate every one of their clients and understand what holds the most value to them, and ask them to pay the price accordingly. It's simply easier to just ask for a massive amount of money -  for most wealthy people, they could get the killing done much more cheaply (see the Varys' attempt to poison Dany) than hand over a huge amount to the FM. Also, the fact that for most people, their children are what is going to be dearest to them, so the HoBaW should have been overflowing with child acolytes by now if they actually required a "personal sacrifice" of their clients.

Maybe the "personal sacrifice" tenet of the FM might come up when the client is not that wealthy. In those cases they might require something more from the client than a small sum of money, like in the waif's stepmother case, her child. But from the wealthier clients (LF/the Crown, the dragonlord families in Valyria, and possibly Euron) they might be content with a large sum of money.

In that case then I think we can say that Euron simply paid the FM with a dragon egg and didn't actually make a personal sacrifice by throwing it into the sea. The FM accepted the price accordingly to kill a king (Balon). That would also explain how they didn't care about the dragonhorn and all the other stuff in his possession.

Actually, I think you misunderstand my point. My point is that the asking price is a test. They ask for something that nullifies any greedy or overreaching intent by the one who asks, or that is a blessing in disguise when it concerns a request for well "justice of wrong having been done".
LF is all about money and what he can buy with the money (people, sellswords). So, they ask him a hefty price in money with which he could buy half an army (they're not going to ask him for half his army). Because his motives are greedy, he decides not to go through with it. It would hurt his plans to part with the money.

The waif's stepmother is all about having her child become heir. So, they asked her child (I suspect). Because her motives are greedy and concern her child, she's not going to give up the child she wants to make heir. It would totally defeat her prupose to part with her child.

Euron is all about becoming an emperor and he cannot do it without a dragon. So, they ask him to toss his dragon egg overboard. Now let's imagine that Euron had no dragonhorn at all, but solely the egg. Would he have tossed the egg overboard? No. He would find some other ways to see Balon killed.

The waif's father is all about justice to the deceitful wife who tried to kill his daughter who is physically harmed in such a way that her social life, marriage prospects are bleak and the father is in a pickle over his heir. So, they ask for the girl, and have him split his inheritance in two. It's basically a version of Solomon's judgment, except here it's about an inheritance for a child. The father rather splits his inheritance, ensure both his children's future (including his child by the treacherous wife) and make sure there's no evil stepmother around anymore. 

Arya threw an axe into a burning cage, and the 3 lives she saved with it, still had to hack themselves out of it. But she did risk her own life if for only a few minutes to run back and find the axe, then back to the cage and throw it, and she judged not who those 3 lives were. And she desparately prays for justice of people who harmed her family, friends, herself but also strangers.

The waif is a "special" case in that it is a "special" story of FM assignments where we clearly know the FM assassinated someone for "justice" reasons and the price (child + half the inheritence) is a blessing in disguise. I did not mean to imply with the use of "special" that the waif's case is a "unique" case for the FM, but rather unique in the insight we can get out of it, if we ponder it for it a bit. 

We don't know the price for the insurance man, but we do get heavy hints that it was either a prayer of a widow or (half) orphaned child wanting justice for the insurance man ripping off ship captains and leave the widow and children with nothing. And it's probably a GRRM joke about best insurance men/laywers are dead ones.

[Clegane'sPup]

Caw, Caw, Caw, crow eating time. Euron sailed into Lordsport the day after Balon died. Argh. Aren't Lordsport and Pyke on the same island?  Dat lunatic Euron killed Balon. That’s my story and I’m sticking with it.

My alternative thought is Euron in his travels comes across a dragon egg. He goes to the HoBaW in Braavos. Euron is then taken to the sanctum by the kindly man or the waif and petitions that Balon die. He is told to toss the dragon egg into the sea.

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually, I think you misunderstand my point. My point is that the asking price is a test. They ask for something that nullifies any greedy or overreaching intent by the one who asks, or that is a blessing in disguise when it concerns a request for well "justice of wrong having been done".
LF is all about money and what he can buy with the money (people, sellswords). So, they ask him a hefty price in money with which he could buy half an army (they're not going to ask him for half his army). Because his motives are greedy, he decides not to go through with it. It would hurt his plans to part with the money.

The waif's stepmother is all about having her child become heir. So, they asked her child (I suspect). Because her motives are greedy and concern her child, she's not going to give up the child she wants to make heir. It would totally defeat her prupose to part with her child.

Euron is all about becoming an emperor and he cannot do it without a dragon. So, they ask him to toss his dragon egg overboard. Now let's imagine that Euron had no dragonhorn at all, but solely the egg. Would he have tossed the egg overboard? No. He would find some other ways to see Balon killed.

The waif's father is all about justice to the deceitful wife who tried to kill his daughter who is physically harmed in such a way that her social life, marriage prospects are bleak and the father is in a pickle over his heir. So, they ask for the girl, and have him split his inheritance in two. It's basically a version of Solomon's judgment, except here it's about an inheritance for a child. The father rather splits his inheritance, ensure both his children's future (including his child by the treacherous wife) and make sure there's no evil stepmother around anymore. 

Arya threw an axe into a burning cage, and the 3 lives she saved with it, still had to hack themselves out of it. But she did risk her own life if for only a few minutes to run back and find the axe, then back to the cage and throw it, and she judged not who those 3 lives were. And she desparately prays for justice of people who harmed her family, friends, herself but also strangers.

The waif is a "special" case in that it is a "special" story of FM assignments where we clearly know the FM assassinated someone for "justice" reasons and the price (child + half the inheritence) is a blessing in disguise. I did not mean to imply with the use of "special" that the waif's case is a "unique" case for the FM, but rather unique in the insight we can get out of it, if we ponder it for it a bit. 

We don't know the price for the insurance man, but we do get heavy hints that it was either a prayer of a widow or (half) orphaned child wanting justice for the insurance man ripping off ship captains and leave the widow and children with nothing. And it's probably a GRRM joke about best insurance men/laywers are dead ones.

Oooh...I do get it now. The FM essentially neutralise what the waif's stepmother wanted in the first place. Similar to the case of Euron, they made him throw the egg overboard but he outsmarted them by hiding the existence of the dragonhorn and the other stuff (or he got it later) That's the best explanation we have for this entire inconsistency, thanks sweetsunray 

 

4 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

That's interesting about the Valyrian invasion theory; do you have a link? To be honest I kinda doubt that: Dragonstone and Driftmark would have been more logical targets methinks.

Here it is: 

 

4 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

The thing I've never got here: the Valyrians already had plenty of gold. Why is the Lannister gold a prerequisite for hiring the assassins (other than because it's neat). Am I forgetting something?

It's been a while since I read TWOIAF, but there was a point of time where the Valyrians were running low on finances and were getting desperate for money (presumably because the FM must have asked extremely large amounts from them for carrying out all those assassinations.)

So some family, in their desperation, sold Brightroar to the Lannisters and got gold "enough to raise an army." That gold went to the FM....and you know how it goes.

 

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

On 10/11/2016 at 2:17 PM, TheDailyPlanetos said:

So that would go back to the Kinslaying taboo, that I don't cover in the text but more on the video. We know Ramsay kills Roose in the show, but is that necessarily how it goes down in WoW? It very well could, but for now we know that even the most vindictive of folks have a taboo on 

[Maester of Valyria]

On 14/10/2016 at 2:34 AM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Here it is: 

Many thanks! I'll give it a read.

On 14/10/2016 at 2:34 AM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

It's been a while since I read TWOIAF, but there was a point of time where the Valyrians were running low on finances and were getting desperate for money (presumably because the FM must have asked extremely large amounts from them for carrying out all those assassinations.)

So some family, in their desperation, sold Brightroar to the Lannisters and got gold "enough to raise an army." That gold went to the FM....and you know how it goes.

Really? I confess I don't remember that part. The wiki page for Brightroar makes no mention of it, and Search turned up nothing when I looked up 'Valyria gold'. Although to be fair I haven't read World in a while now either.