Its clear that Loras went to an empty Dragon Stone

[aryagonnakill#2]

15 hours ago, bent branch said:

It goes without saying that some of the men were used for garrisoning Dragonstone. That is the only pool of men available for garrisoning Dragonstone. Because there were 2,000 men to begin with it can be assumed that 1,000 were used to garrison Dragonstone. These men couldn't be pulled out without replacing them with other soldiers. So, these 1,000 troops don't need to be accounted for anywhere else.

Aurane only had to explain the absence of the 1,000 men not garrisoning Dragonstone. I will address why these troops were not returned to KL or used by Cersei in my reply to aryagonnakill#2. The main thrust of my idea is that Dragonstone was taken without a battle. I can think of three major scenarios as to how that happened with a myriad of variations in the details of all three. I just don't think it makes sense for a battle to happen in an instance where none of the men responsible for conducting that battle want that battle to happen and when all the men were more or less known to each other. If a negotiated settlement could get them what they all wanted quicker and with less death I can't believe they didn't do that.

 

The idea that these 1,000 troops could simply be taken by the Tyrells is not as outrageous as you believe. To understand why not let's review what the circumstances were around these troops.

Because the IT was completely dependent upon Redwyne's fleet, the siege at Dragonstone could only occur with the assistance of the Tyrells. Although the Lannisters provided the 2,000 troops for the siege, Paxter Redwyne was in command of the siege. Since Paxter is the only named commander of the siege, it can safely be assumed that the highest ranking Lannister officers were along the lines of squad leaders. Since any ravens coming to Dragonstone would head to the castle not the troops outside, we have the situation where these Lannister troops have been getting all their supplies and information through Tyrells sources over the entire course of the siege.

Then Cersei sends Loras (a KG, but also another Tyrell) with the order to break the siege and then the bulk of the Redwyne fleet would be released to go assist the Reach. She doesn't give any further instructions. She doesn't name a new commander of those troops, she doesn't say what should happen to those troops, she doesn't give any commands what-so-ever about those Lannister troops. This situation creates a huge loophole that the Tyrells could take advantage of. After all, if the last commander they knew they had been placed under (Paxter) says, "Okay, you guys get on the ships, you're coming with me!", why would they randomly say, "Nope, we don't answer to you anymore." Remember the story told of the broken men. We are told that while troops start out under one commander they get passed around quite freely. The fact they were recruited in the Westerlands is practically meaningless once they were placed under Paxter.

Once Paxter took his fleet and headed towards the Reach, he most assuredly left ships behind to both supply Dragonstone and move men back and forth as needed. Remember, Cersei and the IT had no way of doing this themselves. So, why would Tyrell men ferry Lannister men to KL to fight Tyrell men? I think that's unbelievable, don't you? Anyhow, from the discussion about Dragonstone between Kevan and Mace it is clear that whatever happened at Dragonstone, both sides, Lannister and Tyrell, have been told a story that they both believe and neither side has a problem with. This is one of the instances in the story where the characters know more than the reader. Whatever happened at Dragonstone is obviously central to another mystery within the story and GRRM isn't quite ready to tell us what that is.

I think your making some jumps here.  First 1,000 troops left to garrison Dragonstone is an awful lot.  I can't imagine it would be that many.   Second, if the Tyrells had been instructed to return the Lannister troops to KL they would have, idk what you mean by Lannister troops fighting Tyrell men, they are aligned and at that time no where near fighting each other.

Then you say that Kevan clearly has a story he believes and is happy with, ya that is the whole point.  If any story other than that reached Kevan he would not be happy about it at all, it would be on his mind.  That means he has not gotten any evidence of Dragonstone either not falling, or not being stormed.

Also about the Lannisters being no more than squad commanders, this is surely not the case.  Troops are commanded by nobles, and their loyalty is not really in doubt here.  Someone is acting as a castellan, and that person is a noble from the Westerlands.  That person would be sending ravens, and if they don't match up that would be a problem.  

There are also trade ships, this is where Myranda's statement that Dragonstone still stands comes in.  Presumably the last word she got came from Gulltown where some trader came from Kings Landing thus sailing by Dragonstone and saw that Stannis's flag still flew above the castle, but that could just be to give us a time frame for the events in the Vale.

So while I agree that taking the extra 2k troops and heading straight to the Reach wouldn't be hard in and of itself, it's keeping that a secret that is a problem.  If they did not take dragonstone they would have heard of that by now, and if they took it by any method other than storming it they would have gotten word from someone on it again.

 

[Jadakiss]

It no longer needs to be hidden...

Tyrells have the power. They are allied with the faith as well. It was just something to keep Cersei at bay most likely. Now she has no power to do anything. And Kevan wouldn't screw up the relationship with them. To think that Mace is content with Loras dying is moronic. Again the fact grrm picked a huge liar to tell the tale of Loras says it all, and then to make it easier for people that cant catch an obvious drift he had him steal all her ships. Showing he obviously is not loyal to her

To think the tyrells would go through with some idiot mission to storm a castle instead of defending their homeland is comical. Loras does not answer to Cersei. She is not the queen and has close to no power now. They just let her think that she does

[Jadakiss]

16 hours ago, BeastMaster64 said:

Yea but he cant take supplies, men and resources from Storms End if he dosnt hold Dragonstone so that is redundant. They are cut off, I dont think Stannis is woried for his life at all and i believe he is going for the ultimate victory and that means that he needs to have places were he can collect taxes, recruit soldiers and  that produces food.

Well its all moot cause storms end is gone. He has money coming from the iron bank. Yes I think stannis prevails as well but as far as he sees it he is still in a very very dire situation. Its all the winter which means long distance trade like that is close to impossible. He needs every piece of strength and his resources in the north for this moment

[Jadakiss]

@TargLoyalis6       I highly highly doubt that Ramsay would figure out or find out who Mance is. Lets say for thought he did have prisoners. He has no clue who they are. Lets say he decided to flay mance. How would he know when he gets to the truth or not? he has NO way of knowing that

And wrong wrong and wrong again Ramsay has NEVER once used the word "whore' you might want to double check that. And no Jon has no idea who the hell reek is.......and I feel if he did have prisoners at least some piece of skin or a body part would have been sent

[bent branch]

4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I think your making some jumps here.  First 1,000 troops left to garrison Dragonstone is an awful lot.  I can't imagine it would be that many.   Second, if the Tyrells had been instructed to return the Lannister troops to KL they would have, idk what you mean by Lannister troops fighting Tyrell men, they are aligned and at that time no where near fighting each other.

Then you say that Kevan clearly has a story he believes and is happy with, ya that is the whole point.  If any story other than that reached Kevan he would not be happy about it at all, it would be on his mind.  That means he has not gotten any evidence of Dragonstone either not falling, or not being stormed.

Also about the Lannisters being no more than squad commanders, this is surely not the case.  Troops are commanded by nobles, and their loyalty is not really in doubt here.  Someone is acting as a castellan, and that person is a noble from the Westerlands.  That person would be sending ravens, and if they don't match up that would be a problem.  

There are also trade ships, this is where Myranda's statement that Dragonstone still stands comes in.  Presumably the last word she got came from Gulltown where some trader came from Kings Landing thus sailing by Dragonstone and saw that Stannis's flag still flew above the castle, but that could just be to give us a time frame for the events in the Vale.

So while I agree that taking the extra 2k troops and heading straight to the Reach wouldn't be hard in and of itself, it's keeping that a secret that is a problem.  If they did not take dragonstone they would have heard of that by now, and if they took it by any method other than storming it they would have gotten word from someone on it again.

 

I think you are jumping to conclusions based solely on Aurane Waters' story. On May 8th, Aurane and Loras set off for Dragonstone with Loras having orders to take command of the army there and take Dragonstone. On May 11th, Aurane returns with his story about the taking of Dragonstone.

As you have pointed out, It appears the Vale was unaware of Dragonstone's fall on May 14th. In addition, Oldtown is unaware of Dragonstone's as of May 21st. So, ten days after the fall of Dragonstone it appears the only story about what happened there is Aurane's and that it is known only in KL. I find the Oldtown information particularly interesting as you would think Paxter had some ravens on his ships that would fly to the Reach, but that is speculation on my part.

Anyhow, up until the time Cersei is arrested we know only of Aurane's story. After Cersei is arrested we get a hint that things are not quite what we think from the Septa you mentioned.

As to whether it was Tyrell's or so unknown Westerland commander that took Dragonstone, you need only read the epilogue of ADWD. This is just one quote:
 

Quote

 

"I am." The puff of white hair at the end of Swyft's chin quivered in outrage. "Must I remind my lord, this trouble is not of my doing? And not all of us have had the opportunity to refill our coffers with the plunder of Maidenpool and Dragonstone."

"I resent you implication, Swyft," Mace Tyrell said, bristling. "No wealth was found on Dragonstone, I promise you. My son's men have searched every inch of that damp and dreary island and turned up not so much as a single gemstone or speck of gold. Nor any sign of this fabled hoard of dragon eggs."

Kevan Lannister had seen Dragonstone with his own eyes. He doubted very much that Loras Tyrell had searched every inch of that ancient stronghold. The Valyrians had raised it, after all, and all their works stank of sorcery. And Ser Loras was young, prone to all the rash judgments of youth, and had been grievously wounded storming the castle besides. But it would not do to remind Tyrell that his favorite son was fallible. "If there was wealth on Dragonstone, Stannis would have found it," he declared...

 

You see? Loras Tyrell is the person in command at Dragonstone. Not some unnamed Westerman. Kevan makes note of Loras being injured in the taking of Dragonstone, but it seems those injuries were not severe enough to remove him as the commander of troops in Dragonstone. Hmm, there are definitely things about what happened at Dragonstone that are not adding up. But since we still haven't got an accounting from someone who was there (besides Aurane), we really can't answer these questions. If it turns out that the story Aurane told was an exaggeration or an outright lie, do you think anyone, besides maybe Cersei, would be terribly surprised after what Aurane has done? 

[Jadakiss]

13 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Kinda unnerving that you started this discussion with no textual evidence (at least out of respect to readers) and yet you continue to confront people without a shed of a quote, while other posters do the work for you. 

I shall quietly slip out of this thread now.

Already stated its cause I got banned prior to when was going to. And sense then I have, but it is good to see that about 75%- to 80% seem to at least agree on the topic. Whether he actually went or not can be debated. But the crystal things are that he is not injured, the tyrells seem ok with everything, cersei holds no power at all, the tyrells would never do some idiot mission for cersei, she is nothing more than the kings mother.

The faith is working with the Tyrells.

As far as the Mace quote before I was banned, when two people already went to it there is no point for me to. The point of me talking about it wasn't even to pull a direct quote but to just remind people or bring it up that Mace was having it sons (in plural) winning the reach back. And was never concerned or worried about the Loras "injury"

Aurane is not loyal to Cersei and never was. Having Aurane being the one to tell Cersei is grrm really really really trying to make things obvious. How some dont catch that I dont know

All of those points, None are complicated, if anything kind of shocking to me cause its pretty straight forward, some people here still manage to amaze me

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

1 hour ago, Jadakiss said:

Already stated its cause I got banned prior to when was going to. And sense then I have, but it is good to see that about 75%- to 80% seem to at least agree on the topic. Whether he actually went or not can be debated. But the crystal things are that he is not injured, the tyrells seem ok with everything, cersei holds no power at all, the tyrells would never do some idiot mission for cersei, she is nothing more than the kings mother.

The faith is working with the Tyrells.

As far as the Mace quote before I was banned, when two people already went to it there is no point for me to. The point of me talking about it wasn't even to pull a direct quote but to just remind people or bring it up that Mace was having it sons (in plural) winning the reach back. And was never concerned or worried about the Loras "injury"

Aurane is not loyal to Cersei and never was. Having Aurane being the one to tell Cersei is grrm really really really trying to make things obvious. How some dont catch that I dont know

All of those points, None are complicated, if anything kind of shocking to me cause its pretty straight forward, some people here still manage to amaze me

How do we know the faith is in direct collaboration with the Tyrells?

Would Lancel be so gung-ho about the faith if it was just a ruse to destroy his house?

Would the spider kill Kevan and tell him he was doing too good a job of smoothing the Waters (heh, see what I did there) between the houses if they were now "clearly" against the Lannisters? Lying about Dragonstone would be a pretty clear statement and I believe that such a secret would not evade the master of whispers for long. It requiring entire armies to fib and all.

I apologize, but it seems like your posts are just click-baits with little to no substance. Others before you have laid the groundwork of the same theories and they used evidence. The least you could do is site your sources.

[aryagonnakill#2]

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 5:01 PM, bent branch said:

I think you are jumping to conclusions based solely on Aurane Waters' story. On May 8th, Aurane and Loras set off for Dragonstone with Loras having orders to take command of the army there and take Dragonstone. On May 11th, Aurane returns with his story about the taking of Dragonstone.

As you have pointed out, It appears the Vale was unaware of Dragonstone's fall on May 14th. In addition, Oldtown is unaware of Dragonstone's as of May 21st. So, ten days after the fall of Dragonstone it appears the only story about what happened there is Aurane's and that it is known only in KL. I find the Oldtown information particularly interesting as you would think Paxter had some ravens on his ships that would fly to the Reach, but that is speculation on my part.

Anyhow, up until the time Cersei is arrested we know only of Aurane's story. After Cersei is arrested we get a hint that things are not quite what we think from the Septa you mentioned.

As to whether it was Tyrell's or so unknown Westerland commander that took Dragonstone, you need only read the epilogue of ADWD. This is just one quote:
 

You see? Loras Tyrell is the person in command at Dragonstone. Not some unnamed Westerman. Kevan makes note of Loras being injured in the taking of Dragonstone, but it seems those injuries were not severe enough to remove him as the commander of troops in Dragonstone. Hmm, there are definitely things about what happened at Dragonstone that are not adding up. But since we still haven't got an accounting from someone who was there (besides Aurane), we really can't answer these questions. If it turns out that the story Aurane told was an exaggeration or an outright lie, do you think anyone, besides maybe Cersei, would be terribly surprised after what Aurane has done? 

Yes, everyone would be surprised because it would mean the Tyrells lied to the King.  Aurane Waters was the only one who told the story on page, but most of what happens in the books happens off page.  Kevan would've heard the tale just as Qyburn and Pycelle would have heard it also.  Everyone in the room in the quote you posted is on the same page about what happened and everyone believes it. There are some things that can be explained away.  Maybe the Lannisters agreed that any troops that survived storming Dragonstone would go to the Reach to help fight the Ironborn, maybe Mace/Loras did take over Dragonstone temporarily after it fell, but time is not on their side here.  I do not have the exact dates but it has been a significant amount of time since it was "taken", long enough for lots of sailors to have sailed by and seen what flag the castle is flying.  If it still flew Stannis' sigil Kevan would know, so the concept of them not conquering the island can be ruled out. 

As to taking it without storming it, this is where whoever gets appointed castellan comes in, as well as all of the noble Lannisters who were there with their troops on the island.  Those nobles would have ravens, and would be in on what was happening.  They would've been in the court when Loras got his orders.  Plus yet again sailors talk.  This is how word of Danaerys has spread.  Surely any sailors landing at Dragonstone would be asking about what happened just out of curiosity.  If anyone heard the castle wasn't stormed that's big news, not just a good story but worth something to the Lannisters, anyone who brought that info would expect a reward.

It is simply not possible to keep that big a secret for long, that is why I suggest the only subterfuge that could work would be Loras' armor being put on someone else.

[Jadakiss]

On 12/28/2016 at 4:50 AM, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

How do we know the faith is in direct collaboration with the Tyrells?

Would Lancel be so gung-ho about the faith if it was just a ruse to destroy his house?

Would the spider kill Kevan and tell him he was doing too good a job of smoothing the Waters (heh, see what I did there) between the houses if they were now "clearly" against the Lannisters? Lying about Dragonstone would be a pretty clear statement and I believe that such a secret would not evade the master of whispers for long. It requiring entire armies to fib and all.

I apologize, but it seems like your posts are just click-baits with little to no substance. Others before you have laid the groundwork of the same theories and they used evidence. The least you could do is site your sources.

 

Multiple people have went over that it is pretty easy to tell the faith and Tyrells are working together. Yes a lot of it is some of the situations where some of the septas etc who act and talk sketchy. Like having each other stop talking and giving looks. So that point is a stretch,

However Marg and all of the Tyrells are far from idiots. She is confident and is requesting a trial by the faith for a reason. There has not even been any doubt whatsoever by anyone in the Tyrell family that is worried about her losing the trial. The faith also does not believe anything Cersei says. They know she is a full of crap liar. They already got the testimony needed.

But even prior to that. Randall Tarly had no issue getting Marg to keep her safe away from Cersei, and agreeing to bring her back when the trial starts. If he was even worried a little bit he would have had is superior army clean all of them out and not take the risk of things going wrong. He has his whole army with him to enforce whatever he wants and yet is more then willing to have Marg go back and stand trial.

Those are just a couple of the points that I haven't seen that many people go over in this thread. So I tried adding to what multiple other users already talked about on the 2nd and 3rd page about the faith.

also lets say Qyburn does know the truth by now about dragon stone, well what can even be done? Cersei is in no position to do anything at all. Kevan is allied with Mace not Cersei. Again I cannot stress enough that the Tyrells wouldnt have Loras go on some meaningless idiot mission for Cersei that has no benefits for anyone other then Cersei, opposed to going to fight the iron born

[Aedam Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Jadakiss said:

 

Multiple people have went over that it is pretty easy to tell the faith and Tyrells are working together. Yes a lot of it is some of the situations where some of the septas etc who act and talk sketchy. Like having each other stop talking and giving looks. So that point is a stretch,

However Marg and all of the Tyrells are far from idiots. She is confident and is requesting a trial by the faith for a reason. There has not even been any doubt whatsoever by anyone in the Tyrell family that is worried about her losing the trial. The faith also does not believe anything Cersei says. They know she is a full of crap liar. They already got the testimony needed.

But even prior to that. Randall Tarly had no issue getting Marg to keep her safe away from Cersei, and agreeing to bring her back when the trial starts. If he was even worried a little bit he would have had is superior army clean all of them out and not take the risk of things going wrong. He has his whole army with him to enforce whatever he wants and yet is more then willing to have Marg go back and stand trial.

Those are just a couple of the points that I haven't seen that many people go over in this thread. So I tried adding to what multiple other users already talked about on the 2nd and 3rd page about the faith.

also lets say Qyburn does know the truth by now about dragon stone, well what can even be done? Cersei is in no position to do anything at all. Kevan is allied with Mace not Cersei. Again I cannot stress enough that the Tyrells wouldnt have Loras go on some meaningless idiot mission for Cersei that has no benefits for anyone other then Cersei, opposed to going to fight the iron born

The fact that the Tyrell's are confident in Marg's innocence doesn't really prove that they are workin with the faith. The same way that Tarly not using his army to destroy the faith doesn't prove they're working with the faith. Those are just logical decisions made by people that believe Marg is innocent and they believe the trial will prove that. Like you said, the faith is already aware that Cersei is a full of crap liar. Marg doesn't need to scheme and plan for her trial the way that Cersei does, because she is actually innocent of most the crimes that she was accused of. Going against the faith or attacking them, when it looks like the trial is going to go your way, seems pretty stupid. 

And if for some reason the trial doesn't go your way, or is rigged in some way, you still have that army right there to take Marg out of the city. There really isn't much to gain for the Tyrells if they attack the faith pre-trial but there is a lot to lose. The small folk are currently fond of the Tyrells, but that'll be over if they attack the faith. 

And I think Loras going to Dragonstone wasn't a Tyrell decision, it was a Loras decision. I can't imagine Mace or Olenna being happy about that move. 

[sweetsunray]

On 28-12-2016 at 5:50 AM, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

Would Lancel be so gung-ho about the faith if it was just a ruse to destroy his house?

The sparrows are out to set things to right and haul the nobility who turned the Riverlands into Flander's Fields to some justice. Their anger is very sincere. And the one who actually returned law & order back to certain locations was Tarly from the Tyrell army.

As for Lancel: I think the section where Jaime talks to Lancel in the sept at Darry's says enough. Lancel knows what made sure that Robert would never return from his hunt back alive and well. Lancel was disillusioned with Cersei when she left the troops fighting for her and Joffrey to fend for themselves without Joffrey on the battlements to fight for. Lancel knows that Tyrion saved the city from being sacked by holding off Stannis long enough for Tywin and the Tyrells to rout Stannis. He knows how corrupt it all was and he's disillusioned and disgusted with most of them, and himself. He seems to want to atone, and part of that atonment imo is to see Cersei fall.

 

[bent branch]

8 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Yes, everyone would be surprised because it would mean the Tyrells lied to the King.  Aurane Waters was the only one who told the story on page, but most of what happens in the books happens off page.  Kevan would've heard the tale just as Qyburn and Pycelle would have heard it also.  Everyone in the room in the quote you posted is on the same page about what happened and everyone believes it. There are some things that can be explained away.  Maybe the Lannisters agreed that any troops that survived storming Dragonstone would go to the Reach to help fight the Ironborn, maybe Mace/Loras did take over Dragonstone temporarily after it fell, but time is not on their side here.  I do not have the exact dates but it has been a significant amount of time since it was "taken", long enough for lots of sailors to have sailed by and seen what flag the castle is flying.  If it still flew Stannis' sigil Kevan would know, so the concept of them not conquering the island can be ruled out. 

As to taking it without storming it, this is where whoever gets appointed castellan comes in, as well as all of the noble Lannisters who were there with their troops on the island.  Those nobles would have ravens, and would be in on what was happening.  They would've been in the court when Loras got his orders.  Plus yet again sailors talk.  This is how word of Danaerys has spread.  Surely any sailors landing at Dragonstone would be asking about what happened just out of curiosity.  If anyone heard the castle wasn't stormed that's big news, not just a good story but worth something to the Lannisters, anyone who brought that info would expect a reward.

It is simply not possible to keep that big a secret for long, that is why I suggest the only subterfuge that could work would be Loras' armor being put on someone else.

No, Aurane Waters lied to Cersei. We don't yet know the story Loras has told. As far as sailors talking, all the sailors that were there left either with Aurane or Paxter.

Of course the castle is flying the Baratheon of Kingslanding flag. You don't have to have a battle to change who has control of a castle. There was no battle for Riverrun and yet it changed hands anyway, didn't it? I don't understand why you think a negotiated settlement in this instance would mean the castle was still flying Stannis' flag. Riverrun was a negotiated surrender and that is all I'm saying for Dragonstone.

There were no noble Lannisters with those troops on Dragonstone. The story says that Paxter Redwyne and then Loras Tyrell were in charge of those troops. It would be extremely ineffective to place two competing commanders over those troops. The Lannister squad commanders left are probably the level of Hallis Mollen or Jory Cassell. Kevan doesn't seem to be bent out of shape by Loras being in command of those troops. After all, Loras is KG and Tyrells are allies. I don't understand why you are so convinced there is some unnamed Lannister commander on Dragonstone.

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

20 hours ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

The fact that the Tyrell's are confident in Marg's innocence doesn't really prove that they are workin with the faith. The same way that Tarly not using his army to destroy the faith doesn't prove they're working with the faith. Those are just logical decisions made by people that believe Marg is innocent and they believe the trial will prove that. Like you said, the faith is already aware that Cersei is a full of crap liar. Marg doesn't need to scheme and plan for her trial the way that Cersei does, because she is actually innocent of most the crimes that she was accused of. Going against the faith or attacking them, when it looks like the trial is going to go your way, seems pretty stupid. 

And if for some reason the trial doesn't go your way, or is rigged in some way, you still have that army right there to take Marg out of the city. There really isn't much to gain for the Tyrells if they attack the faith pre-trial but there is a lot to lose. The small folk are currently fond of the Tyrells, but that'll be over if they attack the faith. 

And I think Loras going to Dragonstone wasn't a Tyrell decision, it was a Loras decision. I can't imagine Mace or Olenna being happy about that move. 

This. Very much this.

There is a definite difference between the Tyrells working with the Faith, and the Tyrells working together with the Faith. Enemy of my enemy is my friend and all of that. The Tyrells probably don't like that the faith has been armed, but right now they are still in a favorable position. Cersei has been thoroughly outed as a liar and sinner. So the accusations against Marg don't look bad. She is known to ride often, and that is known to pop cherries. So if she no longer appears to be pure, she still has a defensible position for why that is and how that doesn't besmirch her honor as a lady. From what we know of Randall Tarly he is a capable commander. He knows he has the larger force and could use it if necessary. But as things stand there does not seem to be any reason he would need to use it.

 

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The sparrows are out to set things to right and haul the nobility who turned the Riverlands into Flander's Fields to some justice. Their anger is very sincere. And the one who actually returned law & order back to certain locations was Tarly from the Tyrell army.

As for Lancel: I think the section where Jaime talks to Lancel in the sept at Darry's says enough. Lancel knows what made sure that Robert would never return from his hunt back alive and well. Lancel was disillusioned with Cersei when she left the troops fighting for her and Joffrey to fend for themselves without Joffrey on the battlements to fight for. Lancel knows that Tyrion saved the city from being sacked by holding off Stannis long enough for Tywin and the Tyrells to rout Stannis. He knows how corrupt it all was and he's disillusioned and disgusted with most of them, and himself. He seems to want to atone, and part of that atonment imo is to see Cersei fall.

 

If I notice that there is broken glass on a street in my neighborhood and I sweep it up, does that imply I am a street sweeper or working with them? No, it means I recognize that broken glass near my home is not safe for me or my neighbors and friends. A shared goal (cleaning the river lands up) does not imply collusion between two parties.

Lancel is repentant for his and his families sins. I have no doubt of his earnest involvement with the Faith. But I don't think he would be so supportive of their mission if he detected any indications that his new institution was practicing the same sort of conspiring and plotting as the one he just left. If you could prove to me that the Tyrells were the holiest of families and that theirs was a dedication to the seven and the defense of the faith then I would be more inclined to believe the two were working together because they would have the same goals and a shared cause (faith). But I cannot see the faith working with one family and using subterfuge to overthrow the crown that just gave them their power.

Acknowledgement:

I could be giving Lancel too much credit. Why would he need to know the deeper workings and politcs of the faith.

It is not beyond the Tyrells to use an imposter in someone's armor.*

I don't often sweep up glass. Emile Janza didn't care about the environment. 

*I just don't see the benefit of this at DS, yet.

[sweetsunray]

21 minutes ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

But I cannot see the faith working with one family and using subterfuge to overthrow the crown that just gave them their power.

You don't? Lancel joined the Faith and went to KL. Hell, he escorts her as one of the Faith Militant during her walk of shame through the city. ANd you can betcha that the HS will use Lancel's personal confessions and atonement to use against Cersei.

The HS also has learned enough through Kettleback that Cersei tried to use him for her game with Tommen's Queen with lies, while he has Lancel and others revealing how depraved Cersei is.

And who's saying the HS wants to overthrow the crown. Cersei's not the crown. Tommen is, his wife is. Sounds more like HS would like to bring the crown to heel and make them his puppets, while taking away the power of the corrupt Cersei. And for this it's in the HS' interest to indeed keep Cersei out of the loop.

And then there is the whole issue about the Ironborn attacking the Reach. Of course a man of the Faith like the HS would take an interest in that. Oldtown has the Starry Sept. It may not be the primary seat of the Faith anymore, but as a defender of the Faith he can't have it fall in the hands of men of the Drowned God or a man as "ungodly" as Euron. You could argue he'd wage war against Stannis for being a follower of Rh'llor, but neither Stannis nor Mel are at Dragonstone. Aside from some reserve garrison at Dragonstone, the unFaithful Stannis has taken his army North where he has the Old Gods to content with. As the High Septon, he can't abandon the Reach to the Ironborn. That's like a Roman Pope abandoning on Constantinopel, because there were Moors on Sicily.

 

[Jadakiss]

22 hours ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

The fact that the Tyrell's are confident in Marg's innocence doesn't really prove that they are workin with the faith. The same way that Tarly not using his army to destroy the faith doesn't prove they're working with the faith. Those are just logical decisions made by people that believe Marg is innocent and they believe the trial will prove that. Like you said, the faith is already aware that Cersei is a full of crap liar. Marg doesn't need to scheme and plan for her trial the way that Cersei does, because she is actually innocent of most the crimes that she was accused of. Going against the faith or attacking them, when it looks like the trial is going to go your way, seems pretty stupid. 

And if for some reason the trial doesn't go your way, or is rigged in some way, you still have that army right there to take Marg out of the city. There really isn't much to gain for the Tyrells if they attack the faith pre-trial but there is a lot to lose. The small folk are currently fond of the Tyrells, but that'll be over if they attack the faith. 

And I think Loras going to Dragonstone wasn't a Tyrell decision, it was a Loras decision. I can't imagine Mace or Olenna being happy about that move. 

And why the hell would Loras do that? Please give me one logical reason as to why Loras would do Dragon Stone like he is Cerseis work dog. Instead of him going to fight the iron born.

Cersei has no power, she is not the queen. Loras is not an idiot and has no reason to go do that. Nobody on the Tyrell side fears Cersei nor do they have any reason to do what she wants and appease her, them getting dragon stone is useless and a waste of their resources

Everything with the faith is just a side thing that some people say, I agree with it, but there isnt too much evidence to say its for certain. Them being allied with the faith is just something to the left, its not really anything related to Loras and this dragon stone plot

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

You don't? Lancel joined the Faith and went to KL. Hell, he escorts her as one of the Faith Militant during her walk of shame through the city. ANd you can betcha that the HS will use Lancel's personal confessions and atonement to use against Cersei.

The HS also has learned enough through Kettleback that Cersei tried to use him for her game with Tommen's Queen with lies, while he has Lancel and others revealing how depraved Cersei is.

And who's saying the HS wants to overthrow the crown. Cersei's not the crown. Tommen is, his wife is. Sounds more like HS would like to bring the crown to heel and make them his puppets, while taking away the power of the corrupt Cersei. And for this it's in the HS' interest to indeed keep Cersei out of the loop.

I agree. Cersei is a fairly universally disdained character and many forces are working to remove her from power. However, not all of those forces are working together. I also agree that the HS would like to have a level of control over Tommen and his queen. But he has to tread carefully, due to the proveable transgressions of Cersei the rumors of her children's parentage gain credence. That is bad for everyone in KL (including the Tyrells, which Kevan reminds Mace of).

I just took exception to Jada's comment that the Faith is working with the Tyrells. I believe they share many common goals, i.e. gaining power and influence (a major theme of the Game), but I don't see any evidence that shows them doing behind the curtain diabolical plotting.

As for Lancel, it's a huge addition to their roster and he naturally is someone they would want as a sort of poster boy. But poster boys don't have to sit in on the meetings and know too much. I think him being on that walk was probably a way for the HS to use him and to show the dichotomy between two from the same house. For him, it could also be his own walk of atonement.

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

17 minutes ago, Jadakiss said:

And why the hell would Loras do that? Please give me one logical reason as to why Loras would do Dragon Stone like he is Cerseis work dog. Instead of him going to fight the iron born.

Cersei has no power, she is not the queen. Loras is not an idiot and has no reason to go do that. Nobody on the Tyrell side fears Cersei nor do they have any reason to do what she wants and appease her, them getting dragon stone is useless and a waste of their resources

Cersei is the queen regent and Loras is a knight of the kings guard. He has proven his desire to gain glory, examples being his entry in tourneys and more importantly his desire to go bring the Mountain to justice. He is headstrong and the kind of cocky that only young men with something to prove to themselves can be. When he and Cersei have their exchange and he declares he will take DS there is no one from his family there who I would consider a major plotter. So I think it is a fair and logical opinion to formulate that he really did go to DS. I am open to your theories but you make controversial blanket statements without backing them up.

An example being the statement about the faith working with the Tyrells. If you had initially said this:

23 minutes ago, Jadakiss said:

Everything with the faith is just a side thing that some people say, I agree with it, but there isnt too much evidence to say its for certain. Them being allied with the faith is just something to the left, its not really anything related to Loras and this dragon stone plot

Then I would not have thought much of it.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

4 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

And why the hell would Loras do that? Please give me one logical reason as to why Loras would do Dragon Stone like he is Cerseis work dog. Instead of him going to fight the iron born.

In A Feast for Crows the reason is that if Loras were able to end the siege by taking Dragonstone then Redwyne's fleet could then leave to meet the Ironborn. 

[Jadakiss]

18 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

In A Feast for Crows the reason is that if Loras were able to end the siege by taking Dragonstone then Redwyne's fleet could then leave to meet the Ironborn. 

 

Right but Loras doesn't need to make a deal with her nor need her permission for anything. She was lied to, she got the answer that would satisfy her. There is no reason that the Tyrells would send Loras and their men on a death mission, a castle that is no use to them, there isn't even any noble people of value that could be grabbed as hostages. They wouldn't risk Loras dying while doing Cerseis bidding

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

23 minutes ago, Jadakiss said:

 

Right but Loras doesn't need to make a deal with her nor need her permission for anything. She was lied to, she got the answer that would satisfy her. There is no reason that the Tyrells would send Loras and their men on a death mission, a castle that is no use to them, there isn't even any noble people of value that could be grabbed as hostages. They wouldn't risk Loras dying while doing Cerseis bidding

You asked for 

Quote

And why the hell would Loras do that? Please give me one logical reason as to why Loras would do Dragon Stone like he is Cerseis work dog. 

So I gave you one logical reason from FfC.

Where are you reading that this was Cersei's bidding? When I read this:

Quote

Cersei cut him off. “Storm’s End is a hundred times more valuable than the Shields, and Dragonstone … so long as Dragonstone remains in the hands of Stannis Baratheon, it is a knife at my son’s throat. We will release Lord Redwyne and his fleet when the castle falls.” The queen pushed herself to her feet. “This audience is at an end. Grand Maester Pycelle, a word.”

The old man started, as if her voice had woken him from some dream of youth, but before he could answer, Loras Tyrell strode forward, so swiftly that the queen drew back in alarm. She was about to shout for Ser Osmund to defend her when the Knight of Flowers sank to one knee. “Your Grace, let me take Dragonstone.”

Loras volunteered to go. Cersei never told him to.

Debating whether he went or not is great. There are a lot if reasons to believe he never went. But in the text we are given a logical reason and this reason was Loras' doing, not Cersei's.