The Southern Ambition wasn't created by the North.

[estermonty python]

4 hours ago, Nocturne said:

at the point the gold mines have probably all but dried up.

There isn't the slightest hint that this is remotely true, not now and certainly not 20 years prior to AGOT.  This is a plot added to the tv show and its infiltrated book speculation for reasons I still don't understand.

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And when Lord Cregan could have been Hand he resigned and went back home as soon as he could. He had the power to make a difference on a grand scale. But he threw that away.

I'll do you one better: didn't Cregan and the Northmen really just enter the war as a way to get south for the winter to give them and their families a better chance of survival?  I really think the extent to which the Starks and the Northmen really just don't give a shit about the rest of Westeros, and vice versa, throughout the history of Targaryen reign has been vastly underrated.

That said, the Targs DO still owe the Starks a marriage from the pact of ice and fire.  I can't IMAGINE that will be important at all in the coming story...

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

I'll do you one better: didn't Cregan and the Northmen really just enter the war as a way to get south for the winter to give them and their families a better chance of survival?  I really think the extent to which the Starks and the Northmen really just don't give a shit about the rest of Westeros, and vice versa, throughout the history of Targaryen reign has been vastly underrated.

Well, I think Rhaenyra and Cregan were scratching each others back. Cregan got the chance to rid himself of a bunch of old men and fools who were hungry for glory, and Rhaenyra got some men fighting to put her on the throne.

She took the same way with Dalton Greyjoy. No difficult moving ships around Westeros to face the strong Velaryon fleet in battle, just attack and overwhelm the defenseless West.

And, honestly, I actually wanted the Starks to play a more prominent role in the history of the Seven Kingdoms. There could have been great Stark warrior-king invading the Riverlands to kick some Andal ass, or even better a Stark king invading one or two Iron Islands butcher all people there.

Many people thought that there might have been a Targaryen-Stark marriage, possibly between one of the children of Jaehaerys I and a Stark. There could also have been Stark Hands, Stark men on the Small Council, possibly even a Stark Kingsguard. Yet it turns out that the Starks didn't participate in the First Blackfyre Rebellion, and most likely not even in the wars to follow that. They may not even have fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings for all we know, although there are hints that some Northmen have fought in there.

3 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

That said, the Targs DO still owe the Starks a marriage from the pact of ice and fire.  I can't IMAGINE that will be important at all in the coming story...

I'd be very surprised if a deal made by Jacaerys Velaryon in the name of his mother Rhaenyra who isn't counted as a Queen Regnant officially is worth anything. However, there is a pretty good chance that Daenerys and Jon might marry. Although that will then have, most likely, more to do with Jon's paternal ancestry than his Stark mother.

[Free Northman Reborn]

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I only do that when it is relevant. It is a fact that the Starks were essentially reduced to irrelevant backwater lords during the entire history of the Targaryen reign. No Targaryen ever served on the Small Council, on the Kingsguard, or participate in any major war in the politics of the Realm. The only exception being the Dance, of course, and Robert's Rebellion. And when Lord Cregan could have been Hand he resigned and went back home as soon as he could. He had the power to make a difference on a grand scale. But he threw that away.

You are not mentioning crucial facts, as usual when this whole thing is on the table. This was an afterthought. The Blacks originally concluded (quite correctly) that asking for the support of Winterfell and the North wouldn't do because such help (if it were coming) would probably come to late. Jace then decided to go to the North as well but the Northmen certainly weren't a top priority for Rhaenyra and Daemon.

It is, because if you live in some backwater town in the middle of nowhere you can also have some money and a pretty long family tree but that doesn't mean the people in the large city are going to be impressed by you. Just remember what Lynesse Hightower thought about Jorah's home and island. Do you think a Lord Hightower would treat or think of a Lord Stark as an equal? Or a Lannister? Perhaps in polite conversation and on paper, but this is the difference between a billionaire and a millionaire. Numbers count.

The bloodline of the Starks as is old, distinguished, and as noble as it can be. I never doubted that. But they are not playing in the same like prestige-wise or wealth-wise as many of the other great houses in the North. The Lannisters, Hightowers, Tyrells are much richer and much more powerful than they are, and even the Arryns are displaying more wealth than the Starks. Sansa and Septa Mordane actually commented on the fact that Jory looks like a beggar among the knights at the Tourney of the Hand. And presumably Jory could have afforded himself some fancy armor and close if the Starks had been paying him more for his service, right?

You can go into 'the Starks don't have to be rich to be as good as anybody else' mode but that's just as wrong in Westerosi elite (or people sucking up to the elite) as it is in real life.

Exactly, and the Southrons don't care about the Northmen, either. For them, Westeros ends at the Neck. Everything north of there is basically poor wasteland. Just ask Paxter and Mace about that. They don't even think the North is it worth to retake it from Robb or Stannis. Just let them keep it, never mind, it is worth pretty much nothing anyway.

We actually don't know how often great houses married among each other. This kind of thing happened. We have those Baratheon-Lannister marriages that are mentioned in AGoT. For the Starks and Lannisters we can say that marrying into vassal houses was pretty common, but there are that Webber and those Royce and Rogers marriages among these two houses.

Tully-Stark clearly was exceptional but that one would have been Rickard's southron ambitions. Baratheon-Stark was a love match, basically, at least on Robert's part, and Lannister-Tully seems to be part of Tywin's ambition to give Jaime a bride of equal rank, not some vassal's daughter. Tywin himself married a fellow Lannister, after all. In addition the Tully match would have helped Tywin to extend his influence.

No, we seem to have gotten the same kind of thing after the Conquest when Queen Rhaenys was arranging a lot of marriages to make peace between the Seven Kingdoms. That didn't work out all that well.

We have no reason to assume that Jaime-Lysa had anything to do with Brandon-Catelyn, let alone Robert-Lyanna. And most definitely not the Martell-Lannister matches that were entertained.

Incorrect for the most part.

You merely succeeded in highlighting how unusual inter-Great House marriages are. And the sheer number of them that took place before Robert's Rebellion was even more so.

As for the North and its status. Well there you just lose the plot.

Your argument, remember, is that the Starks are of lesser status than the southron Great Houses, from the point of view of the South. But then, to bolster your point, you head off and lament how the Cregan Stark chose to not be involved with the rule of King's Landing. Clearly, the disdain was displayed in the opposite direction to what you claim, namely from the Starks to King's Landing, and not in the reverse. Proving that in general it is the Starks who see themselves as above the petty politics of King's Landing, and not the other Houses who see them as somehow less worthy.

It is the Starks who choose to be aloof, not the Southron lords who have disdain for them. And in a large part this has to do with their different culture and religion.

And again, you conflate logistical realities with comparative status and honor. The fact that Northern troops are more difficult and time consuming to involve in southron conflicts proves my point. Distance makes the North less tangible and "real" to the average medieval southron lord. The North is some distant place they hear about, but will never see.

And to really drive this home, consider the Martells of Dorne. Dorne has a smaller population than the North, has far less arable land and is overall less powerful than the North. It has no city, while the North has White Harbor. And yet, I don't see any indication that Dorne is looked down upon by the likes of the Riverlands, Vale or West. They are hated by the Reachmen for obvious reasons, but in terms of status they are held in high esteem by all.

Well, then the Starks would be held in even higher esteem. They have ruled the North for 7000 years longer than House Martell has ruled Dorne, they have more people, a bigger army, vastly more land, (and vastly more arable land as a portion of their total territory).

Then look at the Stormlands. They are small, sparsely populated, have no city, and have an army barely larger than that of Dorne. Again, the Starks are more powerful than them.

If you want to know what the average Westerosi lord would know about the North, think what his maester would have taught him. And for that, you need to read Yandel's World of Ice and Fire. In that book the age and esteem of House Stark, its ancient feats, its long history and its vast domains are covered in as much detail as your average lord is likely to know.

And clearly they are depicted in every bit as high esteem - if not more so - than the likes of the Lannisters, Arryns etc.

As for Lannisters not seeing Starks as equals. Laughable. As for Hightowers even seeing themselves as equals of House Stark. Again. Laughable.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Incorrect for the most part.

You merely succeeded in highlighting how unusual inter-Great House marriages are. And the sheer number of them that took place before Robert's Rebellion was even more so.

Just because the plot has a lot of unusual marriages occur there doesn't mean that we have a conspiracy there. Could be, but as of yet we don't have any evidence.

Quote

As for the North and its status. Well there you just lose the plot.

Your argument, remember, is that the Starks are of lesser status than the southron Great Houses, from the point of view of the South. But then, to bolster your point, you head off and lament how the Cregan Stark chose to not be involved with the rule of King's Landing. Clearly, the disdain was displayed in the opposite direction to what you claim, namely from the Starks to King's Landing, and not in the reverse. Proving that in general it is the Starks who see themselves as above the petty politics of King's Landing, and not the other Houses who see them as somehow less worthy.

Who cares what a shabby impoverished guy with an impeccable bloodline thinks about his own importance. The Westerlings were once great and wealthy, now they are not because they no longer a wealthy and married the wrong people. The Lannisters look down on them and would never marry one of their family members to them under normal circumstances.

Cregan Stark apparently didn't have the stomach for politics. He could even enforce his wish to continue the war despite the fact that he brought a huge army and controlled the city.

The Lannisters also stayed aloof of the petty politics of KL for the greater part of the Targaryen reign. Yet they still coveted the power and prestige that came with power at court. And Tywin finally realized that for his house. Rickard seems to have tried the same thing, only on a lesser scale.

Quote

And again, you conflate logistical realities with comparative status and honor. The fact that Northern troops are more difficult and time consuming to involve in southron conflicts proves my point. Distance makes the North less tangible and "real" to the average medieval southron lord. The North is some distant place they hear about, but will never see.

Nobody wants to even go there. Just reread the Dunk & Egg stories. Nobody wants to accompany Dunk and Egg on their journey to distant Winterfell. The North is far away, underdeveloped, and cold. There is nothing up there that is worth enough to travel up there.

Quote

And to really drive this home, consider the Martells of Dorne. Dorne has a smaller population than the North, has far less arable land and is overall less powerful than the North. It has no city, while the North has White Harbor. And yet, I don't see any indication that Dorne is looked down upon by the likes of the Riverlands, Vale or West. They are hated by the Reachmen for obvious reasons, but in terms of status they are held in high esteem by all.

Well, you have to reread the books. Even the wildlings sing songs about the Dornishman's wife that make Dorne appear as some exotic place where another species is living. Dorne is even set apart more from the other kingdoms than the North, as per George's own words.

Quote

Well, then the Starks would be held in even higher esteem. They have ruled the North for 7000 years longer than House Martell has ruled Dorne, they have more people, a bigger army, vastly more land, (and vastly more arable land as a portion of their total territory).

Again, being of an ancient bloodline isn't the only criteria to judge a noble family. By their own standards you also have to have wealth, prestige, and power. Compared to the other great houses the Starks only have the age thing on their side. And the Martells aren't all that bad in that regard, either, being actually a rather old Andal house with the additional benefit of being descended from Rhoynish nobility. Nymeria's bloodline might stretch back even before the Long Night for all we know. The Rhoynar are among the oldest civilizations (and most developed) civilization in Martinworld.

Quote

Then look at the Stormlands. They are small, sparsely populated, have no city, and have an army barely larger than that of Dorne. Again, the Starks are more powerful than them.

If you want to know what the average Westerosi lord would know about the North, think what his maester would have taught him. And for that, you need to read Yandel's World of Ice and Fire. In that the age and esteem of House Stark, its ancient feats, its long history and its vast domains are covered in as much detail as your average lord is likely to know.

And from that they are held in every bit as high esteem - if not more so - than the likes of the Lannisters, Arryns etc.

As for Lannisters not seeing Starks as equals. Laughable. As for Hightowers even seeing themselves as equals of House Stark. Again. Laughable.

It still seems that the Baratheons, Arryns, Tullys, etc. are richer than the Starks. That gives them more prestige. And the Durrandon-Baratheons are at least as old as the Starks.

Yandel describes the North as he would describe another land. It is not 'those are our guys, look how great they are' as he does for Robert's Stormlords. It is telling us exotic things about the crannogmen and the Skagosi rather than focusing on the grandness of House Stark.

[Chaircat Meow]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but it doesn't make sense having Marwyn drop some hints about a Citadel conspiracy against magic and a maester feeding Rickard the idea that he should better the reputation of himself and his house in the South. The Starks usually are ignored by the other great houses of the Realm because they live in a remote backwater region. That's what Rickard wanted to change, not topple the Targaryens.

The Lyanna-Robert match came to pass because Robert asked for Lyanna's hand. He saw her once or twice, perhaps when the Starks visited Ned and the Stark cousins in the Vale, and then he approached Lord Rickard about Lyanna's hand through Ned. That's not a conspiracy, it is a historical accidents.

I'm not clear what isn't supposed to make sense? We are not told what Rickard's southron ambitions were precisely. The clue, IMO, is the fact the author linked the southern marriages with the Citadel. Of course, this is just a theory, and it might be wrong.

GrrM said in a SSM that Robert asked for Lyanna's hand. But we don't know enough detail to say whether it was orchestrated or not, or when it took place in relation to everything else. Jon and Rickard may have dropped hints, arranged things and fed him info to get him interested. And, if this conspiracy did exist, I think Ned and Robert were kept in the dark to a considerable extent by their older relatives/guardians.

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Just because the plot has a lot of unusual marriages occur there doesn't mean that we have a conspiracy there. Could be, but as of yet we don't have any evidence.

Who cares what a shabby impoverished guy with an impeccable bloodline thinks about his own importance. The Westerlings were once great and wealthy, now they are not because they no longer a wealthy and married the wrong people. The Lannisters look down on them and would never marry one of their family members to them under normal circumstances.

Cregan Stark apparently didn't have the stomach for politics. He could even enforce his wish to continue the war despite the fact that he brought a huge army and controlled the city.

The Lannisters also stayed aloof of the petty politics of KL for the greater part of the Targaryen reign. Yet they still coveted the power and prestige that came with power at court. And Tywin finally realized that for his house. Rickard seems to have tried the same thing, only on a lesser scale.

Nobody wants to even go there. Just reread the Dunk & Egg stories. Nobody wants to accompany Dunk and Egg on their journey to distant Winterfell. The North is far away, underdeveloped, and cold. There is nothing up there that is worth enough to travel up there.

Well, you have to reread the books. Even the wildlings sing songs about the Dornishman's wife that make Dorne appear as some exotic place where another species is living. Dorne is even set apart more from the other kingdoms than the North, as per George's own words.

Again, being of an ancient bloodline isn't the only criteria to judge a noble family. By their own standards you also have to have wealth, prestige, and power. Compared to the other great houses the Starks only have the age thing on their side. And the Martells aren't all that bad in that regard, either, being actually a rather old Andal house with the additional benefit of being descended from Rhoynish nobility. Nymeria's bloodline might stretch back even before the Long Night for all we know. The Rhoynar are among the oldest civilizations (and most developed) civilization in Martinworld.

It still seems that the Baratheons, Arryns, Tullys, etc. are richer than the Starks. That gives them more prestige. And the Durrandon-Baratheons are at least as old as the Starks.

Yandel describes the North as he would describe another land. It is not 'those are our guys, look how great they are' as he does for Robert's Stormlords. It is telling us exotic things about the crannogmen and the Skagosi rather than focusing on the grandness of House Stark.

In both the cases of Dorne and the North, you appear to equate exotic and "different", to "being of lesser status". No one argues that the North is not viewed as different, with different customs, a different way of life, a different religion, and in truth, even from a different race for the largest part, than the South.

That has nothing to do with being of lesser status.

Note that the you don't seem to view Nymeria's "exotic" bloodline in House Martell as a reason for reduced status. So you're not even applying your own (baseless I might add) rule consistently.

The Starks might be viewed as the Romanovs of Westeros. Distant, somewhat exotic and aloof. And the Dornish as the Spanish or perhaps the Portuguese.

But that doesn't equate to being of lesser status.

Hoster certainly seemed very eager to marry his oldest daughter into House Stark. Just like the Riverlords do not feel at all dishonored to have a Stark as King, let alone as Lord Paramount.

You must remember that prejudice against distant places will be rife in a medieval setting. The Greatjon looks at Highgarden and Dorne with disdain, despite likely never having been there. In the same way, southroners might look at the "frozen North" in disdain, despite never having seen it. Disparaging references to Dornishmen, etc. will be par for the course. But when it comes to recognizing the status of a ruling House, power is what counts.

Marrying a Lannister/Baratheon princess to a Prince of Dorne was not deemed beneath their status in any way.

I think you are really reaching, tinged by your own preference for the intricacies of southron court politics over the raw-er depiction of the Northern setting. You are entitled to your preferences and biases, as I said on another thread. But that doesn't make arguments based on those biases valid.

[Bael's Bastard]

I think the betrothals and marriages between great houses were somewhat unusual, I just don't think they were part of a conscious effort on the part of Rickard, Jon, or Steffon to take offensive or defensive measures against the Targaryens, nor do I think they were all related as they are portrayed with hindsight.

I think Rickard's historically unusual interest in the south was responsible for almost all of what is perceived as unusual betrothals and marriages between great houses. Rickard betrothed his heir to the eldest child of Riverrun and his only daughter to the Lord of Storm's End.

While the story behind Brandon/Catelyn remains to be seen, the Lyanna/Robert betrothal developed organically thanks in part to the near decade of friendship between Robert and Ned which came before it.

So too, with the groundwork having already been laid by the fosterings and previous betrothals, the Ned/Catelyn and Jon/Lysa matches were a natural solution in the midst of a war that the rebel leaders very well might have lost without Hoster's support.

I will admit that of all the great lords, I feel that Hoster's intentions and his reasoning for accepting the Brandon/Catelyn match are the most mysterious. But I don't think it makes any sense that Tywin was looking to move or protect against the Targaryens at the time he was negotiating with Hoster about Jaime/Lysa, as it seems clear that he still held out hope to marry with the Targs.

I think Rickard's intentions were pretty straight forward, and I think we have a pretty good idea of Tywin's intentions, though perhaps the extents of some of his plots remain to be seen.

A Martell/Lannister or Tully/Lannister match might have been rarer than marriages to bannermen, but based on the Baratheon/Lannister match around the time that Egg was young, I don't think they were completely unheard of. It might just be that they wouldn't really come about unless some circumstance brought them or their parents into close contact they might not have otherwise had. 

I think it is the Stark involvement which makes it seem so unusual, but I think when put into context the Stark moves make sense as Rickard's own personal ambitions, rather than as an anti-Targaryen conspiracy between multiple houses.

And even the Starks had married out of the North during and prior to Rickard's lifetime, though to lower houses than those Rickard's ambitious betrothals locked down, and perhaps ones which still followed the old gods, or were at least associated with the First Men.

Rickard's father's sister married a Royce from the Vale.
Rickard's wife's sister married a Rogers from the Storm Lands.
Rickard's father's father's wife was a Blackwood from the Riverlands.
Rickard's father's father's father's wife was a Royce from the Vale.

So Rickard himself grew up at a time when his own line of Starks seemed to be marrying outside of the North and their own bannermen than they had been in generations prior to that (previously there were the Targaryen-made matches between the daughter of Lord Torhen and Lord Arryn, and between Cregan and Black Aly).

[Free Northman Reborn]

12 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I think the betrothals and marriages between great houses were somewhat unusual, I just don't think they were part of a conscious effort on the part of Rickard, Jon, or Steffon to take offensive or defensive measures against the Targaryens, nor do I think they were all related as they are portrayed with hindsight.

I think Rickard's historically unusual interest in the south was responsible for almost all of what is perceived as unusual betrothals and marriages between great houses. Rickard betrothed his heir to the eldest child of Riverrun and his only daughter to the Lord of Storm's End.

While the story behind Brandon/Catelyn remains to be seen, the Lyanna/Robert betrothal developed organically thanks in part to the near decade of friendship between Robert and Ned which came before it.

So too, with the groundwork having already been laid by the fosterings and previous betrothals, the Ned/Catelyn and Jon/Lysa matches were a natural solution in the midst of a war that the rebel leaders very well might have lost without Hoster's support.

I will admit that of all the great lords, I feel that Hoster's intentions and his reasoning for accepting the Brandon/Catelyn match are the most mysterious. But I don't think it makes any sense that Tywin was looking to move or protect against the Targaryens at the time he was negotiating with Hoster about Jaime/Lysa, as it seems clear that he still held out hope to marry with the Targs.

I think Rickard's intentions were pretty straight forward, and I think we have a pretty good idea of Tywin's intentions, though perhaps the extents of some of his plots remain to be seen.

A Martell/Lannister or Tully/Lannister match might have been rarer than marriages to bannermen, but based on the Baratheon/Lannister match around the time that Egg was young, I don't think they were completely unheard of. It might just be that they wouldn't really come about unless some circumstance brought them or their parents into close contact they might not have otherwise had. 

I think it is the Stark involvement which makes it seem so unusual, but I think when put into context the Stark moves make sense as Rickard's own personal ambitions, rather than as an anti-Targaryen conspiracy between multiple houses.

And even the Starks had married out of the North during and prior to Rickard's lifetime, though to lower houses than those Rickard's ambitious betrothals locked down, and perhaps ones which still followed the old gods, or were at least associated with the First Men.

Rickard's father's sister married a Royce from the Vale.
Rickard's wife's sister married a Rogers from the Storm Lands.
Rickard's father's father's wife was a Blackwood from the Riverlands.
Rickard's father's father's father's wife was a Royce from the Vale.

So Rickard himself grew up at a time when his own line of Starks seemed to be marrying outside of the North and their own bannermen than they had been in generations prior to that (previously there were the Targaryen-made matches between the daughter of Lord Torhen and Lord Arryn, and between Cregan and Black Aly).

My point is not that Northern marriages into the South was unheard of. My point is that inter-Great House marriages to the extent that occurred prior to Robert's Rebellion were unusual in the extreme, else the ruling Houses of Westeros would have been as inbred as the royal families of Europe were in the late Middle Ages. And then situations like the current one, where you have the Stark children being only a death or two away from also being the heirs to Riverrun, would have been far more common.

And yet, we have never heard of the heir to one Great House also being the heir to another Great House. Imagine a situation in the current era, where as things stand, Edmure and his wife's death would make Bran the heir to both Winterfell and Riverrun. There is no precedent for that, EVER, that we know of in all of the Westerosi history that has been published.

So that I find unusual. Now it may just be that George needed those marriages to make the story interesting. But I'd like to think there was a bit more to it than that.

Regarding the anti-Targaryen thing. I'm not sure if that was it. I agree that something was afoot - with Rhaegar seemingly leading it - to garner enough support for Rhaegar to set Aerys aside soon after the Tourney at Harrenhal. But that plot was not followed through.

I wonder if there was not another plot, but this one not by the Great Lords, but influenced by the Maesters perhaps in some subtle way, to achieve something else. But that is of course just speculation, fed by the highly unusual set of betrothals as I outlined above.

[Chaircat Meow]

Here is my old thread on the southron ambitions thing. It is not the best OP in the world, and was sort of troll (so ignore the little jibes at Rickard), but I think it sets out the theory ok.

 

[Chaircat Meow]

20 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I think the betrothals and marriages between great houses were somewhat unusual, I just don't think they were part of a conscious effort on the part of Rickard, Jon, or Steffon to take offensive or defensive measures against the Targaryens, nor do I think they were all related as they are portrayed with hindsight.

I think Rickard's historically unusual interest in the south was responsible for almost all of what is perceived as unusual betrothals and marriages between great houses. Rickard betrothed his heir to the eldest child of Riverrun and his only daughter to the Lord of Storm's End.

While the story behind Brandon/Catelyn remains to be seen, the Lyanna/Robert betrothal developed organically thanks in part to the near decade of friendship between Robert and Ned which came before it.

 

As to the bolded why? Doesn't it make sense to strengthen ties with each other when the king is unstable, and his ancestors have tried bringing back wmd so they can lord it over you.

On Robert and Lyanna's relationship: how do you know? Ned certainly wasn't going to push Robert to marry his sister.

 

 

[estermonty python]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd be very surprised if a deal made by Jacaerys Velaryon in the name of his mother Rhaenyra who isn't counted as a Queen Regnant officially is worth anything. However, there is a pretty good chance that Daenerys and Jon might marry. Although that will then have, most likely, more to do with Jon's paternal ancestry than his Stark mother.

Sure I agree with all of that, I was just hypothesizing that the pact of ice and fire very well could be the "promise" in the "prince that was promised" prophecy.  

[Bael's Bastard]

37 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

As to the bolded why? Doesn't it make sense to strengthen ties with each other when the king is unstable, and his ancestors have tried bringing back wmd so they can lord it over you.

On Robert and Lyanna's relationship: how do you know? Ned certainly wasn't going to push Robert to marry his sister.

Because I don't think the way we as readers might view the situation in hindsight, knowing that the Starks/Arryns/Baratheons/Tullys did eventually join up to overthrow House Targaryen, is an accurate representation of how the players viewed things when they actually made the decisions to foster their children, made their betrothals, etc. over the course of a decade.

At what point would the great houses have had reason to begin to consider Aerys a possible threat to them? What had Aerys done to lead great houses to believe he was a threat against them that they should band together in friendship and marriage against, and when? I see nothing before what he did to the houses which were responsible for the Defiance of Duskendale in 277, long after Ned and Robert were fostered with Jon, and possibly even after Brandon/Cat were betrothed (though possibly before or during).

And even then, I am not sure the great houses who eventually joined up to overthrown House Targaryen would have viewed what Aerys had done to the obviously treasonous houses who carried out the Defiance as an indication that they were or could soon be threatened by him. Aerys' response, while extreme, was not unprovoked or an overreaction to something that wasn't serious (they imprisoned and threatened to execute their king). It's not as if their own houses hadn't wiped out rebellious houses in the past.

Rhaegar and Tywin were on the ground in the Red Keep, they obviously were aware of Aerys' deterioration, but that doesn't mean that the other great houses were, or that they felt threatened by him. But even in their cases, I think both would have been happy to restrain Aerys' power and increase Rhaegar's. I don't see Tywin as wanting to overthrow House Targaryen when he so clearly was still scheming to marry his children into it.

Who says anyone pushed Robert to marry Ned's sister? I don't think anyone had to push anyone. Ned and Robert were already great friends who apparently loved each other, and Robert apparently believed he loved Lyanna. Had Ned not been fostered with Robert it seems unlikely it ever would have happened, but the fostering almost certainly made it possible, and the connection Ned and Robert developed seems to have made it all the more likely.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In both the cases of Dorne and the North, you appear to equate exotic and "different", to "being of lesser status". No one argues that the North is not viewed as different, with different customs, a different way of life, a different religion, and in truth, even from a different race for the largest part, than the South.

'Exotic' means more often than the exotic person or custom is also considered to be less valuable than your own race, culture, custom, etc.

The belief of the Nothmen doesn't set them all that much apart, actually, it is more their more primitive way of life. Many of them live in wooden holdfasts, even some of their greater lords, and so on.

But I'm still also saying that the Starks are one of only three former royal lines to survive the Conquest intact. That's also a strong feature adding to their prestige as a former royal house. But then, they lack political power making them weak players of the game, they are rather poor in comparison to both the Lannisters and Arryns (and the Tullys, Tyrells, Hightowers, and so on).

That certainly would have an impact how they are perceived by their peers. Trying to ignore that doesn't make any sense.

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Note that the you don't seem to view Nymeria's "exotic" bloodline in House Martell as a reason for reduced status. So you're not even applying your own (baseless I might add) rule consistently.

Sure as hell I do. Who do you think is to blame for those queer Dornish customs that allow their women much more power than a proper First Man grants his women? I mentioned that Nymeria's might be as old as that of the Starks and other First Men nobility to counter your point that the relative youth of House Martell would reduce their prestige.

I'd actually agree with you that the Martells and all Dorne are probably considered to be of less status than the other old great houses. Yet the fact that the Princes of Dorne married the Targaryens rather than being conquered by them and the fact that they are still sort of semi-independent princes unlike the former royal houses of Westeros greatly adds to their prestige, not to mention that the Targaryens actually married into House Martell with the Martells retaining that bloodline to this day (unlike the Arryns, for instance).

Still, the average guy from one of the five Andal kingdoms most likely doesn't see the Dornishmen as one of their own. They are queer foreigners and outsiders.

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Starks might be viewed as the Romanovs of Westeros. Distant, somewhat exotic and aloof. And the Dornish as the Spanish or perhaps the Portuguese.

From what perspective, actually. I'm sort of at a loss. Where the hell are the Andals living in that setting?

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Hoster certainly seemed very eager to marry his oldest daughter into House Stark.

Was he? We don't know how the betrothal came to pass yet. However, it seems to me that Ned was begging Hoster to allow him to marry Cat rather than the other way around. Ned and Jon needed Riverrun, but Hoster didn't need Ned nor Jon.

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just like the Riverlords do not feel at all dishonored to have a Stark as King, let alone as Lord Paramount.

Sure, a king who was half-Tully and whose army had just freed Riverrun.

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You must remember that prejudice against distant places will be rife in a medieval setting. The Greatjon looks at Highgarden and Dorne with disdain, despite likely never having been there. In the same way, southroners might look at the "frozen North" in disdain, despite never having seen it. Disparaging references to Dornishmen, etc. will be par for the course. But when it comes to recognizing the status of a ruling House, power is what counts.

Not necessarily. How many ragged filthy peasants some lord can summon doesn't decide whether he gets a good place at table. There are other factors to consider as well. I'm not saying everybody looked down on the Starks. I'm basically saying they were, like Dorne, pretty much often out of the loop what was happening, being forced to deal with the troubles they faced on their own and not all that much caring about what happened outside the North.

But that clearly doesn't increase your status with your peers. If you are an awkward child always staying at home and not playing/interacting with the other children it doesn't matter all that much that your parents as rich, well-bred, or politically well-connected as your peers. You are still the awkward guy. And the Starks pretty much share that fate.

That doesn't mean it has to remain that way. Rickard tried to change it. And perhaps the series will change it even more.

[Bael's Bastard]

Also look at Brandon and his companions when he went to King's Landing. It seems at least possible he was a knight, as he participated in tourneys and had a squire. And among his companions were Jon Arryn's heir from the Vale, a Royce from the Vale, and a Mallister from the Riverlands. I think these things are also indications of Rickard's positive inclinations in regard to the south. He not only fostered Ned in the Vale, but the closest companions of his heir listed as going with him to KL were mostly southroners.

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Also look at Brandon and his companions when he went to King's Landing. It seems at least possible he was a knight, as he participated in tourneys and had a squire. And among his companions were Jon Arryn's heir from the Vale, a Royce from the Vale, and a Mallister from the Riverlands. I think these things are also indications of Rickard's positive inclinations in regard to the south. He not only fostered Ned in the Vale, but the closest companions of his heir listed as going with him to KL were mostly southroners.

There are those theories that many of the lords having reasonably close ties that culminated in marriage alliances grew close to each other during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. If Rickard also went to the Stepstones then this could have been the beginning of his southron ambitions. Unfortunately we don't know anything about that as of yet, but it is certainly possible.

Jon Arryn could have bonded with Steffon, leading to the fostering at the Vale. The same would go for Rickard and Jon. And Rickard and Hoster could actually have become friends or at least good acquaintances, eventually leading to the Tully match.

It would be a way to explain this. The War of the Ninepenny Kings was classical war of us against them, and the Iron Throne brought the war to the enemy. The men in the army would have been brothers-at-arms and all that stuff, allowing to bond much better than if they had just been involved in crushing some rebellion or invasion on Westerosi soil.

The apparent rareness of matches between the great houses (or rather the heirs of great houses) indicates that this kind of thing was perhaps not done all that often because it took a lot of negotiation and trust to broker such deals. That kind of thing could have worked better if the men involved in the negotiations were already knowing each other better than people would connect during some tourney or feast at the capital.

And especially a Stark was not likely to show up at some tourney unless it was the anniversary of the king or something of that sort.

And thinking about that we should also keep in mind that Lady Olenna mentioned she knew Lord Rickard. Not all that well, but still... One wonders how many Redwynes actually knew Lords of Winterfell. Not that many, I guess. That's a huge distance, and just as there were no Starks serving for a longer time in KL we don't know anything about a Redwyne serving at the capital before Lord Paxter.

[Free Northman Reborn]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

'Exotic' means more often than the exotic person or custom is also considered to be less valuable than your own race, culture, custom, etc.

The belief of the Nothmen doesn't set them all that much apart, actually, it is more their more primitive way of life. Many of them live in wooden holdfasts, even some of their greater lords, and so on.

But I'm still also saying that the Starks are one of only three former royal lines to survive the Conquest intact. That's also a strong feature adding to their prestige as a former royal house. But then, they lack political power making them weak players of the game, they are rather poor in comparison to both the Lannisters and Arryns (and the Tullys, Tyrells, Hightowers, and so on).

That certainly would have an impact how they are perceived by their peers. Trying to ignore that doesn't make any sense.

Sure as hell I do. Who do you think is to blame for those queer Dornish customs that allow their women much more power than a proper First Man grants his women? I mentioned that Nymeria's might be as old as that of the Starks and other First Men nobility to counter your point that the relative youth of House Martell would reduce their prestige.

I'd actually agree with you that the Martells and all Dorne are probably considered to be of less status than the other old great houses. Yet the fact that the Princes of Dorne married the Targaryens rather than being conquered by them and the fact that they are still sort of semi-independent princes unlike the former royal houses of Westeros greatly adds to their prestige, not to mention that the Targaryens actually married into House Martell with the Martells retaining that bloodline to this day (unlike the Arryns, for instance).

Still, the average guy from one of the five Andal kingdoms most likely doesn't see the Dornishmen as one of their own. They are queer foreigners and outsiders.

From what perspective, actually. I'm sort of at a loss. Where the hell are the Andals living in that setting?

Was he? We don't know how the betrothal came to pass yet. However, it seems to me that Ned was begging Hoster to allow him to marry Cat rather than the other way around. Ned and Jon needed Riverrun, but Hoster didn't need Ned nor Jon.

Sure, a king who was half-Tully and whose army had just freed Riverrun.

Not necessarily. How many ragged filthy peasants some lord can summon doesn't decide whether he gets a good place at table. There are other factors to consider as well. I'm not saying everybody looked down on the Starks. I'm basically saying they were, like Dorne, pretty much often out of the loop what was happening, being forced to deal with the troubles they faced on their own and not all that much caring about what happened outside the North.

But that clearly doesn't increase your status with your peers. If you are an awkward child always staying at home and not playing/interacting with the other children it doesn't matter all that much that your parents as rich, well-bred, or politically well-connected as your peers. You are still the awkward guy. And the Starks pretty much share that fate.

That doesn't mean it has to remain that way. Rickard tried to change it. And perhaps the series will change it even more.

Being able to raise a "bunch of ragged peasants" is not how the North is perceived (nor is it reality). When George roughly approved the army numbers for the Ice and Fire RPG game in 2005, he qualified it by saying that those were roughly the numbers that each of the kingdoms was perceived to be able to raise, by relatively educated people (lords and Maesters) in the rest of Westeros. And that reference had the North at 45k, Dorne at 50k and the Vale at 45k. Nothing was mentioned about a perception of ragged peasants. The North is broadly perceived to be of similar strength to the Vale, and to the falsely inflated Dornish numbers.

Again, when the history books talk about Torhenn Stark leading a "large" host of 30k men down the Neck, nothing is mentioned about ragged peasants. It is mentioned as a threatening host of savage Northmen, that caused Aegon to divert his campaign to face it.

The ragged peasants is your own invention. Not reality.

As for your caricature of the "awkward" kid being looked down upon, that is again, your own bias speaking. As for Jon Arryn needing Riverrun, thus "begging" Hoster to marry Catelyn to Ned. Once again, your bias leads you to err. You forget that Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon before Ned, before the Tully troops were needed in the Rebellion. In fact, the impression in the first book is very much that the Starks were the more illustrious of the two families entering into this marriage. A perception that still continues. Hence Tywin's reference to Sansa being of the highest birth.

Also explaining the ease with which the Riverlords accepted a Stark as their king. I somehow doubt they would have been so keen if it was a son of Catelyn Tully and Balon Greyjoy who was being nominated to rule them by Balon's boisterous lords.

The Starks are seen as aloof, distant and cold of demeanour. They are not looked down upon as "the awkward kid in the class". That is just silly reasoning, with no basis in fact.

Frankly, out of all the Houses, I see the greatest similarity in the way the Starks and Arryns are viewed. Houses that are supposedly "steeped in honor", of ancient status, and revered as former kings of their regions. And rulers of powerful territories each.

The lack of involvement in court intrigue is not something which diminishes status, as you seem to wish to portray. If anything, it raises status as Lords that seem above the sordid, petty plotting of the King's Landing court.

[Nocturne]

^^ Such an awful biased post. Seriously the Starks are not rich because they don't wear fancy armor? Is Bill Gates or Zuckerberg not rich either because they dress extremely plain?

The Starks prior to the war of the 5 kings had:

- The biggest lands.

- The biggest natural resources at their disposal (lots and lots of timber, lots of places to produce grain)

- They have nice port in White Harbor.

As for the whole Lannister mine thing, why is the crown in such debt? Why has Tywin stopped paying for tourneys and what not, and is lending money from the Iron bank via Littlefinger?

Unless he is purposely trying to bankrupt the crown...which lets face it, he is not.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, Nocturne said:

^^ Such an awful biased post. Seriously the Starks are not rich because they don't wear fancy armor? Is Bill Gates or Zuckerberg not rich either because they dress extremely plain?

The Starks prior to the war of the 5 kings had:

- The biggest lands.

- The biggest natural resources at their disposal (lots and lots of timber, lots of places to produce grain)

- They have nice port in White Harbor.

As for the whole Lannister mine thing, why is the crown in such debt? Why has Tywin stopped paying for tourneys and what not, and is lending money from the Iron bank via Littlefinger?

Unless he is purposely trying to bankrupt the crown...which lets face it, he is not.

 

The Westerlands are undoubtedly the richest kingdom by far. With the Reach in second place.

Thereafter it becomes a bit of a mix, with in my view not a lot of difference between the rest. The order is likely the RIverlands, Vale, North, Stormlands and then Dorne, in my view, but I don't think the variation is too great however the order goes.

[Lord Varys]

@Free Northman Reborn

Okay, then, let's make it more evident: Do you think the lords of Westeros are going to be in awe and wonder and declare some Dothraki khal their emperor because he shows up with a khalasar a 100,000 strong? Or do you think they would still look down on him as the primitive savage he is from their point of view?

Just because somebody is strong doesn't mean I've to respect him. I could still despise him, his manners, and everything he stands for. Despite the fact, you know, that the Dothraki would have the superior horses, the superior riders, the superior bowmen, and possibly even the better fighters (although not good armor).

Of course that's not the case with the Starks. They are not despised nor hated, nor does anybody think they are all that foreign. But they are the Scots of Westeros. And Scots are not Englishmen. The Andals are the Englishmen.

And, man, I didn't say that the Northmen were ragged peasants. I said if a lord came with such people. That was an analogy. Kings usually see themselves of equal rank, at least on paper. But it matters whether you are the King of England (during the days of the Empire) and the King Poland. Power and wealth matter. And the Starks don't have all that much of that in comparison to the their peers.

I don't forget that Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn but don't you forget that Eddard Stark might have picked a different bride had he had a choice in the matter. You know, because he might have been in love with another woman. It apparently happens occasionally that the a brother or other close relative honors a marriage contract if the groom dies before the wedding yet in light of the fact that Eddard became Lord of Winterfell in his own right upon the death of his father and brother that was by no means certain. He could have brokered his own marriage, or he could already have been betrothed to another woman, unwilling to set her aside in favor of Catelyn. That he did his duty there is a strong sign he did so because he needed Hoster's support. Else they would have never married in the middle of the war anyway.

If the Greyjoys had come to the aid of the Riverlords kicking some Lannister ass it could have worked the same way. Especially, you know, if Catelyn Tully had been the wife of Balon Greyjoy.

[Free Northman Reborn]

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Free Northman Reborn

Okay, then, let's make it more evident: Do you think the lords of Westeros are going to be in awe and wonder and declare some Dothraki khal their emperor because he shows up with a khalasar a 100,000 strong? Or do you think they would still look down on him as the primitive savage he is from their point of view?

Just because somebody is strong doesn't mean I've to respect him. I could still despise him, his manners, and everything he stands for. Despite the fact, you know, that the Dothraki would have the superior horses, the superior riders, the superior bowmen, and possibly even the better fighters (although not good armor).

Of course that's not the case with the Starks. They are not despised nor hated, nor does anybody think they are all that foreign. But they are the Scots of Westeros. And Scots are not Englishmen. The Andals are the Englishmen.

And, man, I didn't say that the Northmen were ragged peasants. I said if a lord came with such people. That was an analogy. Kings usually see themselves of equal rank, at least on paper. But it matters whether you are the King of England (during the days of the Empire) and the King Poland. Power and wealth matter. And the Starks don't have all that much of that in comparison to the their peers.

I don't forget that Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn but don't you forget that Eddard Stark might have picked a different bride had he had a choice in the matter. You know, because he might have been in love with another woman. It apparently happens occasionally that the a brother or other close relative honors a marriage contract if the groom dies before the wedding yet in light of the fact that Eddard became Lord of Winterfell in his own right upon the death of his father and brother that was by no means certain. He could have brokered his own marriage, or he could already have been betrothed to another woman, unwilling to set her aside in favor of Catelyn. That he did his duty there is a strong sign he did so because he needed Hoster's support. Else they would have never married in the middle of the war anyway.

If the Greyjoys had come to the aid of the Riverlords kicking some Lannister ass it could have worked the same way. Especially, you know, if Catelyn Tully had been the wife of Balon Greyjoy.

The North is actually based on Northumbria, the northernmost of the Seven Anglo Saxon kingdoms. The Wildlings (North of Hadrian's Wall) - and to an extent the Mountain Clans - are based on the Scots. But that aside.

The point I'm making about Brandon and Eddard is missed. Of course Ned married Catelyn to get Hoster's swords. That is not disputed. But that was in the midst of a war, when Hoster had to decide carefully which side to pick and what reward he could expect. Pick the wrong side, and he loses everything. So if he took that risk, he needed a reward in turn. And that reward was a marriage into House Stark. Not too different from the reward Walder Frey wanted from Robb. To varying degrees, Walder and Hoster were both marrying up, into a higher status House.

You prove that point by pointing out that Eddard was not marrying the person he loved, but had to marry Catelyn out of duty. For Hoster's swords. And the point about Brandon was that Hoster was happy to marry into House Stark before the War too, when nothing was at risk. Again, signifying that it was a marriage he welcomed. Especially considering he could get Jaime Lannister for even a second, less beautiful daugther. Clearly a Stark was a great achievement in his eyes, given that context.

Note also that Olenna Tyrell considers Sansa a great match for the heir to Highgarden, Willas Tyrell. This despite Sansa's northern kingdom being in ruins, and at the nadir of its power. Clearly the status of the Starks is as high as you can get.

So I'm sorry, but your argument simply is not backed by the evidence.