Discussing Sansa XXXII: Game of Faces

[Pandean]

1 hour ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Am I crazy or did Sansa say that Jon hadn't sent any news to Winterfell since he left for Dragonstone?  If that's true, the Northern & Vale lords must be getting seriously confused, concerned, and thinking they might have backed the wrong horse.  No wonder Sansa doesn't have much patience with Arya's inquisition.  

Is Jon really foolish enough not to have sent any word back to Winterfell, even to let them know that the KiTN is alive and well and getting the dragonglass he traveled south to obtain?  Did the writers drop the ball?  Or did I hear it wrong?

 

Not crazy. I believe that is true. 

I can imagine Sansa being like "Arya, Jon hasn't written back in weeks, I have the Northern Lords and the Vale on the edge of a revolt, I have the entire North to run and feed and clothe and more, I do not need this fucking shit from you. If I was going to steal Jon's crown, it would have happened already."

The way I see it is;

A. Either Dany didn't let him write (he was technically a prisoner)

B. Jon was too caught up in staring at Dany's 'gentle heart'

C. Writers dropped the ball

 

Speaking of Jon and Dany...boy, how pissed do you think Sansa will be when she finds out he bend the knee without even consulting her?

"What is the point of being your adviser if you do whatever you want anyway"

[Stormourne]

27 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Not crazy. I believe that is true. 

I can imagine Sansa being like "Arya, Jon hasn't written back in weeks, I have the Northern Lords and the Vale on the edge of a revolt, I have the entire North to run and feed and clothe and more, I do not need this fucking shit from you. If I was going to steal Jon's crown, it would have happened already."

The way I see it is;

A. Either Dany didn't let him write (he was technically a prisoner)

B. Jon was too caught up in staring at Dany's 'gentle heart'

C. Writers dropped the ball

 

Speaking of Jon and Dany...boy, how pissed do you think Sansa will be when she finds out he bend the knee without even consulting her?

"What is the point of being your adviser if you do whatever you want anyway"

I know people are upset that he bent the knee. But it is temporary, until his true heritage is revealed. I think the writers made Jon bend the knee so that he could win her heart. And then when his claim to the Iron Throne is revealed, she will be more inclined to offer a marriage proposal - a political union between them makes sense, and would benefit both parties, including the North.

So I did not mind that he metaphorically bent the knee.

Hell, Sansa might even congratulate him for taking the initiative, haha. He could very well secure the safety of the North - after the Night King falls - by actually becoming the king of the realm.

[Pandean]

27 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I know people are upset that he bent the knee. But it is temporary, until his true heritage is revealed. I think the writers made Jon bend the knee so that he could win her heart. And then when his claim to the Iron Throne is revealed, she will be more inclined to offer a marriage proposal - a political union between them makes sense, and would benefit both parties, including the North.

So I did not mind that he metaphorically bent the knee.

Hell, Sansa might even congratulate him for taking the initiative, haha. He could very well secure the safety of the North - after the Night King falls - by actually becoming the king of the realm.

I think it's less that he bent the knee and more that he did all of that without the consent or information of his subjects. They crowned him as KitN and the KitN belongs in the North, the North does not bow for Southron rulers anymore. Considering their unhappiness already with Jon being South, I find that the idea of them being pleased that Jon bent the knee to some Foreign Invader who may or may not have kept him prisoner would be hard to believe.

I am pretty sure Sansa and the other Northern Lords will not be very happy with him. He is supposed to at least talk to his council before making such rash decisions. Especially because his decisions impact the whole North. If he isn't careful, he could end up with another FtW incident since both happened for similar reasons. Currently the North wants to just be left out of the entire Realm and all it's business. I may be wrong, that's just what I've gathered from the scene's we've had.

Jon's a great guy and all, but not a really good ruler. Out of all the Starks, that goes to Sansa. Seriously, each Stark has their thing and when it comes to ruling, that's Sansa's territory. 

[Stormourne]

18 minutes ago, Pandean said:

I think it's less that he bent the knee and more that he did all of that without the consent or information of his subjects. They crowned him as KitN and the KitN belongs in the North, the North does not bow for Southron rulers anymore. Considering their unhappiness already with Jon being South, I find that the idea of them being pleased that Jon bent the knee to some Foreign Invader who may or may not have kept him prisoner would be hard to believe.

I am pretty sure Sansa and the other Northern Lords will not be very happy with him. He is supposed to at least talk to his council before making such rash decisions. Especially because his decisions impact the whole North. If he isn't careful, he could end up with another FtW incident since both happened for similar reasons. Currently the North wants to just be left out of the entire Realm and all it's business. I may be wrong, that's just what I've gathered from the scene's we've had.

Jon's a great guy and all, but not a really good ruler. Out of all the Starks, that goes to Sansa. Seriously, each Stark has their thing and when it comes to ruling, that's Sansa's territory. 

I do agree that he should have consulted them beforehand. However, when I first watched the scene, my first instinct was that before he returns to Winterfell and tells them how he bent the knee, etc., that he actually talks with the lords and Sansa, and explains to them the situation - the benefits, etc. Whether the lords become angry with him is a likelihood. But, I think he true parentage will be revealed at the same time - so the lords will learn the truth about him bending the knee - grow angry with shouting - and then Bran interrupts them, tells them the truth about Rhaegar. Of course, they will need hard evidence, thus Sam and Gilly will play a part here.

The initial anger at Jon will turn into confusion - they might whisper how "he gave up the North," and then "how he could actually be the heir to the Iron Throne," etc.

Mind you, if Daenerys actually becomes pregnant by the time he returns to Winterfell... that could be an interesting moment. Hell, a marriage could be proposed in Winterfell. - This will most likely happen after the Night King perishes. With how the show is turning out, I'm more certain that Jon or Daenerys won't die. The show-writers might change the ending (so that they survive) so that it is different from the books - this way the book-readers aren't spoiled. Hell, it's not even a guarantee that they'll die in the books.

I think Jon and Daenerys balance each other out. Individually, they might not be the best rulers - but together, they could be a force to be reckoned with. And with a strong and capable small council behind them, they could even make the realm a better place. An absolute monarchy seems like a good start. One unified, national army would cause less problems in the future in terms of civil wars, etc.

The ironic thing is, Jon bending the knee to Daenerys without consulting his people is something Jon in the books would do. That is one reason why he was assassinated - his lack of communication alienated his subordinates. But that's what I love about him

[Mladen]

16 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

The ironic thing is, Jon bending the knee to Daenerys without consulting his people is something Jon in the books would do. That is one reason why he was assassinated - his lack of communication alienated his subordinates. But that's what I love about him

Stupidity? This is really stupid. It is one thing to rule, but completely ignore your subjects and their desires and needs is a Joffrey-level of stupidity.

1 hour ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I know people are upset that he bent the knee. But it is temporary, until his true heritage is revealed. I think the writers made Jon bend the knee so that he could win her heart. And then when his claim to the Iron Throne is revealed, she will be more inclined to offer a marriage proposal - a political union between them makes sense, and would benefit both parties, including the North.

Temporary or not, it will have its consequences. What he did was not any good ruler would do. Offering a marriage would be probably the smartest thing. Didn't Dany leave Daario behind so she could marry someone. Tyrion could have easily proposed the marriage between the two, but no, their only solution is for people to bend the knee and repeat that ad nauseum. 

 

53 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Jon's a great guy and all, but not a really good ruler. Out of all the Starks, that goes to Sansa. Seriously, each Stark has their thing and when it comes to ruling, that's Sansa's territory. 

Between catatonic Bran, Mad Arya and Jon "bend the knee" Snow, it seems she is the most competent of the bunch.

[Stormourne]

6 minutes ago, Risto said:

Temporary or not, it will have its consequences. What he did was not any good ruler would do. Offering a marriage would be probably the smartest thing. Didn't Dany leave Daario behind so she could marry someone. Tyrion could have easily proposed the marriage between the two, but no, their only solution is for people to bend the knee and repeat that ad nauseum.

It seems the writers did not want to bring in the marriage-card straight away. Or we could have gotten talk about Daenerys marrying Jon Snow to get more allies. However, she did have Dorne and Highgarden going into the war. So once she lost them, she only had Jon Snow. A marriage could be offered then, but I think it was a conscious choice by the writers to leave that for the finale, or next season.

The consequences won't really matter once his true parentage is revealed. In fact, people could see the brighter side of things since him bending the knee endeared Daenerys to Jon. And when his claim over Westeros becomes known, and is stronger than hers, she won't lash out and attack him. I think this was what the writers were going for.

There won't be consequences, nothing game-changing. With 7 episodes to go, there is no time for a long feud over his inability to communicate with his people. I do, however, think Jon is genuinely doing what he feels is best for his people. And that counts for something, right? He is acting on his duty, which is to protect the North. And if that means bending the knee to solidify an alliance with the one person who could end the war against the Night King, so be it. There were betters ways at going about it, sure. But this is Jon Snow, lol. He does not have the best leadership skills.

Sometimes, the desires of the people will get them killed and suffer more than necessary. Perhaps he was thinking long-term. What happens after the Night King falls? How can he hope to defeat Daenerys should she declare war against the North to reclaim what she believes is hers? Either way, he bent the knee because the writers need them to fall in love. And what better way than for him to bend the knee when he did not need to. Daenerys was well aware of that, and he did it anyway. The way she looked at him... incestuous or not, they gonna make love like no tomorrow.

[Pandean]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

Stupidity? This is really stupid. It is one thing to rule, but completely ignore your subjects and their desires and needs is a Joffrey-level of stupidity.

Temporary or not, it will have its consequences. What he did was not any good ruler would do. Offering a marriage would be probably the smartest thing. Didn't Dany leave Daario behind so she could marry someone. Tyrion could have easily proposed the marriage between the two, but no, their only solution is for people to bend the knee and repeat that ad nauseum. 

 

Between catatonic Bran, Mad Arya and Jon "bend the knee" Snow, it seems she is the most competent of the bunch.

Agreed. Jon, while he definitely isn't Joffrey, really doesn't have a head for ruling. Has he even really listened to anyone's advice since he became KitN? Things definitely won't be boding well for him when he comes back. Seriously.

And yeah. Sansa currently does seem the only competent one. I just imagine her sitting there doing all her work as Lady of Winterfell, suddenly thinking in a moment of crippling self-awareness, "When did I become the sanest, most reasonable, mature one in this family?" 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Northern Lords once again suggest her to be QitN, considering Jon bent the knee. Which may be considered traitorous to the kingdom of the north and it's people.

Also, yeah. Fuck political alliances! The only way we work together is you accept my unending superiority! Seriously; couldn't they find a way for this plot to work without everyone licking the muck from Dany's boots?

Imagine if Dany and Sansa met. Now that would be one icy meeting.

Sansa would eat her alive.

 

[Mladen]

2 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

It seems the writers did not want to bring in the marriage-card straight away. Or we could have gotten talk about Daenerys marrying Jon Snow to get more allies. However, she did have Dorne and Highgarden going into the war. So once she lost them, she only had Jon Snow. A marriage could be offered then, but I think it was a conscious choice by the writers to leave that for the finale, or next season.

The consequences won't really matter once his true parentage is revealed. In fact, people could see the brighter side of things since him bending the knee endeared Daenerys to Jon. And when his claim over Westeros becomes known, and is stronger than hers, she won't lash out and attack him. I think this was what the writers were going for.

The point of leaving Daario behind was to marry someone. And given that Sand Snakes killed Trystane, Theon was castrated and Loras died in Great Sept of Baelor, it was normal to look for someone else. She then burned Dickon, not that he was the viable option, I would say. She met Jon Snow, proclaimed King, someone whose people named him a KIng. Someone who hates Lannisters, someone who can bring 2 kingdoms into fold, and all she is doing is "bend the knee" speech? Purposeful or not, it is idiotic.

I am not big fan of Jon using claim to get to the Iron Throne. It is contrary to his story. Like Davos said, he has no claim and yet people follow him. Using the claim and suddenly having Dany saying "go for the Throne, I am OK with that" would be in such contrition with the two characters that it would be more suited for Mexican soap opera than GoT. You have to ignore the claims here as they are becoming irrelevant. Great Houses are falling like flies, the Wheel is breaking apart, ice zombie Apocalypse is coming, do you think Dothraki, Unsullied or even anyone will be so obsessed with putting Rhaegar's boy on the Throne? Jon Snow, yes, probably. Rhaegar's son, not so much.

2 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

There won't be consequences, nothing game-changing. With 7 episodes to go, there is no time for a long feud over his inability to communicate with his people. I do, however, think Jon is genuinely doing what he feels is best for his people. And that counts for something, right? He is acting on his duty, which is to protect the North. And if that means bending the knee to solidify an alliance with the one person who could end the war against the Night King, so be it. There were betters ways at going about it, sure. But this is Jon Snow, lol. He does not have the best leadership skills.

He is doing what he thinks is the best, as Sansa said. But, even Robb knew that he can't just bend the knee and renounce the crown. Those people put their faith into him, some of them didn't even have to, like Royce and Vale knights, but nonetheless, they did. They named him their King. They at least deserve to know what he is doing. And naturally, how it will affect all of them. Dany's question about those who follow him is certainly in the right place as obviously, Jon forgot that he actually has to counsel with someone before doing such decision.

2 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Sometimes, the desires of the people will get them killed and suffer more than necessary. Perhaps he was thinking long-term. What happens after the Night King falls? How can he hope to defeat Daenerys should she declare war against the North to reclaim what she believes is hers? Either way, he bent the knee because the writers need them to fall in love. And what better way than for him to bend the knee when he did not need to. Daenerys was well aware of that, and he did it anyway. The way she looked at him... incestuous or not, they gonna make love like no tomorrow.

Jon and Dany falling in love and riding into sunset would be atrocious way to end this. Even now, their love story is written worse than hers with Daario in ADWD and that says something. Yes, I agree that people's wishes often get them killed, but he could have done what Thorren Stark did when he bent his knee to Aegon the Conqueror. He bent the knee, but his lords were there, they got the opportunity to express their opinions and even though he did what he did, they were heard. This one is just crazy, whatever meta reasons are there.

Honestly, at this moment, I wouldn't give Jon to keep an eye on three sheep, let alone entire country.

1 hour ago, Pandean said:

And yeah. Sansa currently does seem the only competent one. I just imagine her sitting there doing all her work as Lady of Winterfell, suddenly thinking in a moment of crippling self-awareness, "When did I become the sanest, most reasonable, mature one in this family?" 

And to think that in the beginning people thought (well, even now they think it) that she is the stupidest. 

1 hour ago, Pandean said:

Imagine if Dany and Sansa met. Now that would be one icy meeting.

Sansa would eat her alive.

I suppose the two will meet at some point and that will be the real Ice and Fire meeting. I can only imagine Varys and Tyrion telling Dany to expect "sweet girl" and then she meets the force of nature she has become. That clash would be amazing to see. 

[Stormourne]

15 minutes ago, Risto said:

Jon and Dany falling in love and riding into sunset would be atrocious way to end this. Even now, their love story is written worse than hers with Daario in ADWD and that says something. Yes, I agree that people's wishes often get them killed, but he could have done what Thorren Stark did when he bent his knee to Aegon the Conqueror. He bent the knee, but his lords were there, they got the opportunity to express their opinions and even though he did what he did, they were heard. This one is just crazy, whatever meta reasons are there.

Either Jon or Daenerys sitting on the Iron Throne at the end isn't like them "riding into the sunset." Who knows who else might die before they kill the Night King - even with a crown, this does not mean they will be happy. The Targaryen Dynasty not surviving the war would be a tragedy. And not one that is necessary. We will see how it turns out in the next episode - Jon may have bent the knee, but the North will benefit the most in the end. The narrative is driving into this direction. The North has wanted independence because the Southern kings have never been a benefit to them, nor cared for them, not in any meaningful way. Who else better to bend the knee to than a son raised in House Stark, a son with fire and ice in his blood?

Daenerys and Jon, ruling together, or one of them (after a child is born - because a child needs to be born to continue the line) is the most logical outcome. Daenerys wants to break the wheel, and this is not democracy - she most likely wants something like absolute monarchy, where all the armies in Westeros are unified into one standing -national- army under the direct control of the reigning monarchs. This would result in less civil wars, less conflicts between minor lords, etc., since the loyalty of the knights and soldiers would be to the crown, not an individual lord.

So it would make no sense for one of them to die before continuing the line. A king without an heir will result in civil war - power hungry lords would fight for power. I know people could argue that Jon could continue the line with some other noble lady, but there is no time for that. Forcing some other girl into the picture at this point would be horrendous writing. I doubt the writers would be that stupid. And the relationship between Daenerys and Jon may seem rushed - but it is still logical if you consider the fact that people in real life do feel instantly attracted to one other, and fall in love at first sight. It's plausible.

All I'm trying to say is that while Jon bending the knee without consulting his loyal lords is detrimental to his rule in the long run, there will be little lasting effects since his true parentage is still in play. In the short-term, there will be turmoil among the north lords - only until his true father is revealed. And should Jon actually marry Daenerys, thus securing peace and safety for his people, the lords will not dissuade him from that. A Northern King on the Iron Throne would be a dream to them, since he would not throw away their concerns like southern kings once did.

We can criticize Jon all we want, but it was the writers who put him in that position, in order to set up the final reveal. I could tell that the real reason the writers made Jon bend the knee, when he did not have to, was for him to actually win Daenerys' heart - this is important because when she learns that he has the greater claim - although he would never use that against her, nor does he even want the crown - she will not feel that threatened by him. In fact, all logical thought would point to the fact that marriage would be the simplest way to resolve that issue. And since the romantic connection is there, it is a good way to end the show. Not all issues would be resolved, there may be lords opposed to the new monarchy, but that all plays into the pseudo-realism.

[greensleeves]

8 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Either Jon or Daenerys sitting on the Iron Throne at the end isn't like them "riding into the sunset." Who knows who else might die before they kill the Night King - even with a crown, this does not mean they will be happy. The Targaryen Dynasty not surviving the war would be a tragedy.

Really? The end of that madness-prone inbred dynasty is a tragedy? Doesn't seem that way to me.

13 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

We will see how it turns out in the next episode - Jon may have bent the knee, but the North will benefit the most in the end.

Thus far Team Targaryen's contributions to the war consist of giving the Night King a dragon. I'm not really sure they're shaping up to be the best allies.

16 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

We can criticize Jon all we want, but it was the writers who put him in that position, in order to set up the final reveal. I could tell that the real reason the writers made Jon bend the knee, when he did not have to, was for him to actually win Daenerys' heart - this is important because when she learns that he has the greater claim - although he would never use that against her, nor does he even want the crown - she will not feel that threatened by him. In fact, all logical thought would point to the fact that marriage would be the simplest way to resolve that issue. And since the romantic connection is there, it is a good way to end the show. Not all issues would be resolved, there may be lords opposed to the new monarchy, but that all plays into the pseudo-realism.

I'm sorry but the idea that *all* of this is just to set up a new Targ Dynasty is barf inducing. I would literally rather see the others win. I also don't think this idea is supported at all by the text.

If Jon is sincere about bending the knee, then he's being an idiot.

 

[Stormourne]

27 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

Really? The end of that madness-prone inbred dynasty is a tragedy? Doesn't seem that way to me.

Thus far Team Targaryen's contributions to the war consist of giving the Night King a dragon. I'm not really sure they're shaping up to be the best allies.

I'm sorry but the idea that *all* of this is just to set up a new Targ Dynasty is barf inducing. I would literally rather see the others win. I also don't think this idea is supported at all by the text.

If Jon is sincere about bending the knee, then he's being an idiot.

 

You hate the idea, but it is the most logical outcome. I'm sorry but it will happen. The show is forcing this outcome. The Targaryen Dynasty will survive. And I'm certain that after Jon and Daenerys, they will stop the incestuous coupling of brothers and sisters - or not, who knows.

[Mladen]

32 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Either Jon or Daenerys sitting on the Iron Throne at the end isn't like them "riding into the sunset." Who knows who else might die before they kill the Night King - even with a crown, this does not mean they will be happy. The Targaryen Dynasty not surviving the war would be a tragedy. And not one that is necessary. We will see how it turns out in the next episode - Jon may have bent the knee, but the North will benefit the most in the end. The narrative is driving into this direction. The North has wanted independence because the Southern kings have never been a benefit to them, nor cared for them, not in any meaningful way. Who else better to bend the knee to than a son raised in House Stark, a son with fire and ice in his blood?

I am not sure that dynasty that ruled so far continuing to do so in the same way is what this narrative is about. Martin speaks about world changing, his heroes are children growing up and change the world around them. Dany wants to break the wheel, you don't do that by continuing the tradition that created said wheel. This world is going to change. In what ways, it remains to be seen, but the world is going to change. Jon/Daenerys sitting on the Throne and ruling over 7 Kingdoms, with 2 dragons is not a change. That is just the same thing.

36 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Daenerys and Jon, ruling together, or one of them (after a child is born - because a child needs to be born to continue the line) is the most logical outcome. Daenerys wants to break the wheel, and this is not democracy - she most likely wants something like absolute monarchy, where all the armies in Westeros are unified into one standing -national- army under the direct control of the reigning monarchs. This would result in less civil wars, less conflicts between minor lords, etc., since the loyalty of the knights and soldiers would be to the crown, not an individual lord.

That is much worse than the wheel she spoke about. If that is the endgame, that is like going from medieval straight to ancient times and slavery. And that is not what Dany wants. She included Targaryens as one of the spokes in the wheel. So, breaking the wheel also means limiting Targ power not making it absolute. The Mad King was overthrown because there were those powerful to oppose him. Can you imagine a scenario without Arryns, Starks and Baratheons? He would burn everybody.

56 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

All I'm trying to say is that while Jon bending the knee without consulting his loyal lords is detrimental to his rule in the long run, there will be little lasting effects since his true parentage is still in play. In the short-term, there will be turmoil among the north lords - only until his true father is revealed. And should Jon actually marry Daenerys, thus securing peace and safety for his people, the lords will not dissuade him from that. A Northern King on the Iron Throne would be a dream to them, since he would not throw away their concerns like southern kings once did.

Those are all cheap solutions to these rather complex problems. Like a nice getaway from dealing with the problem. I would hate to see "Oh, he is a Targ now, let's forget about everything" narrative happening. In ASOIAF, these things have consequences. We saw what happened to Robb. Jon marrying Dany is a good idea, but the one that is not presented to anyone, including the two of them. Which is why it is so idiotic.

58 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

We can criticize Jon all we want, but it was the writers who put him in that position, in order to set up the final reveal.

I say the same thing about Sansa and Vale lords, but people don't listen  

 

 

[Mladen]

11 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

You hate the idea, but it is the most logical outcome. I'm sorry but it will happen. The show is forcing this outcome. The Targaryen Dynasty will survive. And I'm certain that after Jon and Daenerys, they will stop the incestuous coupling of brothers and sisters - or not, who knows.

No, it is most logical to you. But, you forget who are the heroes of the story. What this story is about. It is not about the continuation of the system in place for 300 years. It is about change. You don't propose a change. You propose status quo with more likable characters on the throne. Same old, same old.

[Stormourne]

10 minutes ago, Risto said:

No, it is most logical to you. But, you forget who are the heroes of the story. What this story is about. It is not about the continuation of the system in place for 300 years. It is about change. You don't propose a change. You propose status quo with more likable characters on the throne. Same old, same old.

Are you expecting a constitutional monarchy to take place in under a year or two? You do realise how long that took in England, right? Once the English monarchy saw how the French Monarchy ended up, beheaded and whatnot, they knew that keeping the status quo was bad for your health. Daenerys has been screaming, crown crown crown, for the last seven seasons. The monarchy  will remain, and she will rule through her queenship, perhaps alongside a king. A constitutional monarchy would mean that she has no real power, no real control. And that is not what she wants

Perhaps more power will be given to the lords in the form of a Great Council (similar to a parliament?) - but the monarchy will remain, and with the King and Queen at its head. The introduction of democracy would be bad writing since these people have little concept of that notion - democracy in the West took centuries to develop and enforce - and for realism sake, the same time period would need to take place for that to work in GoT. And in order for her kingdom to flourish and continue, she needs an heir, which is either Jon Snow or a child by Jon Snow. She can't get pregnant, yes, but she's never fucked another Targaryen who was raised from the dead by a fire-god.

Am I wrong, or are you under the impression that some random person will take the Iron Throne by episode 6 of season 8? That would mean more of the same...

[greensleeves]

1 hour ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

You hate the idea, but it is the most logical outcome. I'm sorry but it will happen. The show is forcing this outcome. The Targaryen Dynasty will survive. And I'm certain that after Jon and Daenerys, they will stop the incestuous coupling of brothers and sisters - or not, who knows.

Yeah, you don't know what's going to happen anymore than the rest of us.

[Stormourne]

Just now, greensleeves said:

Yeah, you don't know what's going to happen anymore than the rest of us.

No, but we can infer the outcome from the available facts. And the facts are pointing to such a conclusion. Unless the Targaryen House is doomed to die out, there will need to be a child born. Jon, being the only male Targaryen, will need to provide the seed for this future. And Daenerys is the most logical option in this regard - with seven episodes left, which other female character would the writers have carry his child, and how would this not be bad writing? The writers have been building up the relationship between Jon and Daenerys since they first met. For what else but an eventual union of the Houses Stark and Targaryen? A union between the North and South?

You provide me an alternative outcome that is believable with the avaible facts and I will bend the knee.

[Mladen]

44 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Are you expecting a constitutional monarchy to take place in under a year or two? You do realise how long that took in England, right? Once the English monarchy saw how the French Monarchy ended up, beheaded and whatnot, they knew that keeping the status quo was bad for your health. Daenerys has been screaming, crown crown crown, for the last seven seasons. The monarchy  will remain, and she will rule through her queenship, perhaps alongside a king. A constitutional monarchy would mean that she has no real power, no real control. And that is not what she wants

Constitutional monarchy is one way, enlightened monarch another. We even have democratic elections in Night's Watch. We know how Ironborn choose the King, Targaryens had Great Council. The thing is that going back to one supreme ruler would be actually contriving the plot we have now. Yes, Dany wants to rule, monarchy will probably remain, but things will never be the same. That is the entire point of ASOIAF. Not some King who will be unopposed, but a new system that will be born out of ashes of the old world. Think of Tolkien and how the world was never the same after LOTR happened. 

48 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Am I wrong, or are you under the impression that some random person will take the Iron Throne by episode 6 of season 8? That would mean more of the same...

I don't think that some random person will be ruler after the invasion of Others is over. I think Jon may end up on the throne, if it still exists, but not because of some title or his parentage, but because he is a person who saved them. He will be chosen King as a bastard, just like Northerners chose him. That is something I think is more likely to happen then continuing the old lineages. 

[greensleeves]

13 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

No, but we can infer the outcome from the available facts. And the facts are pointing to such a conclusion. Unless the Targaryen House is doomed to die out, there will need to be a child born. Jon, being the only male Targaryen, will need to provide the seed for this future. And Daenerys is the most logical option in this regard - with seven episodes left, which other female character would the writers have carry his child, and how would this not be bad writing? The writers have been building up the relationship between Jon and Daenerys since they first met. For what else but an eventual union of the Houses Stark and Targaryen? A union between the North and South?

You provide me an alternative outcome that is believable with the avaible facts and I will bend the knee.

Dany goes back to rule in Mereen; Jon choses to stay in Winterfell. There's an outcome.

Dany dies. Jon chooses to remain in the North. There's another

They both die. There's another.

They could literally drop in a random, unnamed woman in the last 5 minutes for Jon to be with (see True Blood).

Maybe Jon doesn't have kids.

Maybe Dany does have that kid, but dies birthing it. Leaving Jon to raise their bastard alone or with a new wife. And he still doesn't take the iron throne.

They haven't been building up the union of Stark and Targaryen. This is your hope, but it's not based on anything. It's a failure of imagination on your part.

Edit: Also, I don't know why you'd think this show wouldn't feature bad writing. It's pretty much expected.

[Stormourne]

24 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

Dany goes back to rule in Mereen; Jon choses to stay in Winterfell. There's an outcome.

Dany dies. Jon chooses to remain in the North. There's another

They both die. There's another.

They could literally drop in a random, unnamed woman in the last 5 minutes for Jon to be with (see True Blood).

Maybe Jon doesn't have kids.

Maybe Dany does have that kid, but dies birthing it. Leaving Jon to raise their bastard alone or with a new wife. And he still doesn't take the iron throne.

They haven't been building up the union of Stark and Targaryen. This is your hope, but it's not based on anything. It's a failure of imagination on your part.

 

Not a failure, just logical interpretation of the writing of this season. You seem to be so averse to the Jon/Daenerys relationship that you would rather see them "both die." And why the hell would she return to Mereen, when all she's ever talked about was Westeros? Your fourth point would be the prime example of bad writing - and when I watched that episode of True Blood, I hated that they made her marry some unnamed guy. Like, what the fuck?

Jon not having kids = the end of the Targaryen House, which would be another example of bad writing. You don't write a book with one of the main POV heroines struggling to reclaim her birthright and home, only to have her die off before, at least, continuing the line. If she dies, her dragons would just burn the shit out of Westeros. No one could control them, not even Jon Snow. They don't share the same mental connection that Daenerys does with her 'children'. So that would be disastrous for Westeros.

Your fifth point is more plausible, but Jon not taking the Iron Throne after Daenerys dies would mean that someone else must rule... who, Cersei? Euron? And should she die birthing their son/daughter, why would Jon abandon King's Landing for Winterfell? Being king of the north, or king of Westeros is not that different. A king is a king, and leaving the south in political chaos does not sound like something Jon Snow would do.

"They haven't been building up the union of Stark and Targaryen. This is your hope, but it's not based on anything. It's a failure of imagination on your part."

Fact 1) Daenerys and Jon are portrayed as having sexual and romantic feelings for one another, a statement that D&D have explicitly stated. Fact 2) They have been building up the eventual meeting between Jon and Daenerys since season 1 - one of the directors or George said that it was all leading up to this moment. Fact 3) That you would claim my hope is not based on anything is a fallacy. I can provide evidence and sound argumentation for my point of view, while you cannot. You tried, and they are lacking in 'imagination,' since most are implausibilities.

All your points do not have a equal chance of occurring. Your sixth point makes the most sense, except that Jon would raise the heir to the Iron Throne in King's Landing. He may not want to rule, but that does not mean he won't for the sake of his people. 

 

[Stormourne]

21 minutes ago, Risto said:

Constitutional monarchy is one way, enlightened monarch another. We even have democratic elections in Night's Watch. We know how Ironborn choose the King, Targaryens had Great Council. The thing is that going back to one supreme ruler would be actually contriving the plot we have now. Yes, Dany wants to rule, monarchy will probably remain, but things will never be the same. That is the entire point of ASOIAF. Not some King who will be unopposed, but a new system that will be born out of ashes of the old world. Think of Tolkien and how the world was never the same after LOTR happened. 

I don't think that some random person will be ruler after the invasion of Others is over. I think Jon may end up on the throne, if it still exists, but not because of some title or his parentage, but because he is a person who saved them. He will be chosen King as a bastard, just like Northerners chose him. That is something I think is more likely to happen then continuing the old lineages. 

That outcome goes hand-in-hand with a marriage between them, though. She may die birthing a child, or even against the Night King. But she is the only plausible character for Jon Snow to love and impregnate at this point - and he needs a wife/son/daughter to continue his family line. They won't end up together on the Iron Throne as one big, happy family like how Lord of the Rings ended. There will be political chaos, a time for healing, potential rebellions here and there. But one of them will end up ruling, will attempt to enforce meaningful change - however, I doubt we will see it in their lifetimes.

Radically changing the political system and class-system would destabilize the realm and lead to anarchy.