Morgana Lannister Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, Pandean said: Yes. It also is different depending on the circumstances--- Risking everything for a friend versus risking everything for a stranger. There are good heroic people in the world. The point is that a lot of people like to make claims of heroism and wag fingers from a moral high ground at people they don't think of as being heroic but once you're in the situation, it's different. Arya is fiercly affectionate to Ned and I would definitely think Arya would do whatever it took to have a chance to save him--whether writing the letter or pleading in court. Once again, I have to say I agree and it depends, as for my post, on how well you knew the person/people you are taking a risk to protect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Sansa is playing Littlefinger. She is setting a trap for him and he is going to fall into it. It is the culmination of their arc together. Student outsmarts her teacher and beats him at his own game. How Arya fits into this I am not sure. Is she in on it with Sansa or playing her own game? Who knows. But I am fairly confident that Sansa is taking Littlefinger down, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said: Once again, I have to say I agree and it depends, as for my post, on how well you knew the person/people you are taking a risk to protect... Yeah. That's what I meant. Sorry. I keep sucking at getting my thoughts across. I have a hard time processing from thoughts to words. People really get annoyed at me a lot for it.So sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 32 minutes ago, Pandean said: Yes. It also is different depending on the circumstances--- Risking everything for a friend versus risking everything for a stranger. There are good heroic people in the world. The point is that a lot of people like to make claims of heroism and wag fingers from a moral high ground at people they don't think of as being heroic but once you're in the situation, it's different. Arya is fiercly affectionate to Ned and I would definitely think Arya would do whatever it took to have a chance to save him--whether writing the letter or pleading in court. Again, I can only agree lol I guess both WWII and the Spanish Civil war (my mom was Spanish) touched me so I mentioned examples I know, but yes, a neighbour who is a friend is different to a stranger! Now, Arya was in no position to save Ned; Sansa thought she was, or had a chance, and no one can criticise her for not trying lol Funnily enough Arya appears to have learned stealth;yet she is all for direct action. For instance when she hears about Ashara and claims that the stupid woman should have killed the killers or her prince not moan in a tower and kill herself! Very good point but now that Arya has stealth she castigates Sansa for surviving via stealth or pretending to be a poor little thing rather than "sticking them with the pointed end." Would have Arya killed Cersei or Joffrey??? She may have tried but without the stealth and the courtiers' tools unlikely that it had ended well. The people I quoted in WWII or whatever used stealth to protect another, not the pointed end, or else both Jewish neighbour and protector and both families would have died... What I see here is that Arya in the show (not going into whether the characterization is good or bad lol) has spent seasons gaining stealth and yet stealth seems to be something she looks down on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 13 minutes ago, Pandean said: Yeah. That's what I meant. Sorry. I keep sucking at getting my thoughts across. I have a hard time processing from thoughts to words. People really get annoyed at me a lot for it.So sorry. lol that's no true; I think I can get what you are getting at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Morgana Lannister said: Again, I can only agree lol I guess both WWII and the Spanish Civil war (my mom was Spanish) touched me so I mentioned examples I know, but yes, a neighbour who is a friend is different to a stranger! Now, Arya was in no position to save Ned; Sansa thought she was, or had a chance, and no one can criticise her for not trying lol Funnily enough Arya appears to have learned stealth;yet she is all for direct action. For instance when she hears about Ashara and claims that the stupid woman should have killed the killers or her prince not moan in a tower and kill herself! Very good point but now that Arya has stealth she castigates Sansa for surviving via stealth or pretending to be a poor little thing rather than "sticking them with the pointed end." Would have Arya killed Cersei or Joffrey??? She may have tried but without the stealth and the courtiers' tools unlikely that it had ended well. The people I quoted in WWII or whatever used stealth to protect another, not the pointed end, or else both Jewish neighbour and protector and both families would have died... What I see here is that Arya in the show (not going into whether the characterization is good or bad lol) has spent seasons gaining stealth and yet stealth seems to be something she looks down on... Agreed, TBH, I blame the writers for the last bit. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Just now, Morgana Lannister said: lol that's no true; I think I can get what you are getting at Sorry. I get real frustrated sometimes about it. ASD is lovely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SansaJonRule Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Pandean said: The thing with the phenomenon of "not me syndrome" is that it's something many many people have. It's all really easy to say "Well, if i lived in WWII Nazi Germany I would defy being conscripted and hide people!" But the reality of the situation is that the common man being conscripted into the Army would be putting their entire family and their own lives at risk by disobeying the command. Similarly, how hiding someone was a heroic action but it also included putting entire families and friends and communities at risk and a lot of people will value the lives of themselves and a loved one over a stranger's. So when there are tough choices presented, it's easy for someone not in the situation to claim to take the noble route (such as Arya saying she would've let them kill her before serving) but in reality, few do. It's not something specific to Arya's character--it can be applied to most of them. It can be applied to most human beings! If we were all willing to put the well being of others before the safety of our own or our families, doing so wouldn't be considered heroic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, Pandean said: Sorry. I get real frustrated sometimes about it. ASD is lovely. Honestly, don't worry, we all come across differently to how we intended; you seem very thorough and lovely. I am sure we will hugely disagree on things at some point but hey point in debating in forums and hugs x and oh, please horror!!! please forgive me if I came across patronising.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Morgana Lannister said: Honestly, don't worry, we all come across differently to how we intended; you seem very thorough and lovely. I am sure we will hugely disagree on things at some point but hey point in debating in forums and hugs x Thanks. I get kinda self conscious because I've gotten people really angry at me before because "you're retarded and can't speak your thoughts correctly so just stop trying I can't stand it when you repeat yourself" >.> So. I try to make sure things are okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 6 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said: It can be applied to most human beings! If we were all willing to put the well being of others before the safety of our own or our families, doing so wouldn't be considered heroic! heroic and oftentimes stupid like what Jon did with Rickon but yes, he had no choice really I guess (Jon). Not putting you down in any way, just making an observation because Jon gets a lot of criticism for that too lol, for instance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Pandean said: Thanks. I get kinda self conscious because I've gotten people really angry at me before because "you're retarded and can't speak your thoughts correctly so just stop trying I can't stand it when you repeat yourself" >.> So. I try to make sure things are okay. Ignore those idiots lol! You make great points! I am sure we will probably get to topics where we are in open disagreement. Disagreement (debate) is great. I got a lot of stuff like that too because I like unpopular parings lol (say Sansa/Tyrion) got a lot of chastising for that but hey this is supposed to be about leisure lol and each to their own; putting other people down for disagreeing is not nice; a good argument against what I may say is a different matter all together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said: Ignore those idiots lol! You make great points! I am sure we will probably get to topics where we are in open disagreement. Disagreement (debate) is great. I got a lot of stuff like that too because I like unpopular parings lol (say Sansa/Tyrion) got a lot of chastising for that but hey this is supposed to be about leisure lol and each to their own; putting other people down for disagreeing is not nice; a good argument against what I may say is a different matter all together Sansa/Tyrion is unpopular?? Someone should tell the fanfic writers that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, Pandean said: Sansa/Tyrion is unpopular?? Someone should tell the fanfic writers that. Point them out to me, hun because I can hardly find any... May write my own, although feeling guilty because George disapproves of fanfics but hey... now I do like the long ones better with all the characters etc rather than a passion night one-shot... Think is with ASOIAF/GOT generally we don't know when the next book will be out and 2019 for the finale??? Bitting nails, will attempt fanfic I think just for the sheer desperation of waiting for more lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SansaJonRule Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Morgana Lannister said: heroic and oftentimes stupid like what Jon did with Rickon but yes, he had no choice really I guess (Jon). Not putting you down in any way, just making an observation because Jon gets a lot of criticism for that too lol, for instance No offense taken, no worries. Heroic actions are often inspired by love, and love very often outweighs sense. Jon lost his head cuz he just watched his baby brother tormented and murdered. Jon's character is much like Jaime's in that he acts impulsively. But Jon learns from his mistakes. He almost went for the NK, but held himself in check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 26 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said: No offense taken, no worries. Heroic actions are often inspired by love, and love very often outweighs sense. Jon lost his head cuz he just watched his baby brother tormented and murdered. Jon's character is much like Jaime's in that he acts impulsively. But Jon learns from his mistakes. He almost went for the NK, but held himself in check. It might've not been the most military sound, smartest, and sensible decision for Jon, but while it was not smart, etc. I can't really blame Jon for riding out. I think we can separate the "Objectively Jon did not make a good decision" from the subjective "Jon did what he felt he had to" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 27 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said: No offense taken, no worries. Heroic actions are often inspired by love, and love very often outweighs sense. Jon lost his head cuz he just watched his baby brother tormented and murdered. Jon's character is much like Jaime's in that he acts impulsively. But Jon learns from his mistakes. He almost went for the NK, but held himself in check. Totally agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SansaJonRule Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Pandean said: It might've not been the most military sound, smartest, and sensible decision for Jon, but while it was not smart, etc. I can't really blame Jon for riding out. I think we can separate the "Objectively Jon did not make a good decision" from the subjective "Jon did what he felt he had to" Agreed. Jon acted on his emotions, not his military sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darmody Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 On 8/20/2017 at 9:46 PM, Raksha 2014 said: rather than try to pull disloyalty out of Sansa's thoughts The silly thing is, Jon already knows about her disloyalty. The show didn't make a Thing out of it, but Jon knows she deliberately withheld information about the presence of the Vale army. Don't know if Arya's aware, but it's common knowledge in at least part of the court. Sansa's ambition isn't a secret. Arya's either way out of her depth (well, she is either way), or her real purpose is to be an agent provocateur. She's goading Sansa into acting on what Arya's perceives to be her true intentions. Which is stupid, because observing a person's reaction to threatening to wear their skin isn't much of a glimpse into their actual intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darmody Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 On 8/20/2017 at 9:52 PM, Pandean said: Yeah. Arya seems to believe there's this grand treason against Jon from Sansa even though there is literally nothing to prove it. Sansa's actions last season would've been treasonous had Jon been king back then. She's responsible for countless Northmen and Wildling deaths. So there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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