teej6 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Cas Stark said: Sansa has been demented since she left the Vale. Doesn't know she's on the King's Road back to WF until they get to Moat Cailin. Agrees to marry Ramsay for revenge. Tells Brienne to fuck off. Gets to WF and proceeds to alienate everyone but the maid. Goes through with the marriage even though she knows Ramsay is a nutter. Finally escapes her room only to ask to be killed. Gets to the wall, and then everything as you say. Must save Rickon. Must attack. No, can't attack. Rickon is as good as dead. Hides an entire deus ex machina army. Then sees LF again, and fails to out or kill him, instead he becomes her sidekick. Then, undermines her brother again and again after undermining him during the battle. Then wants credit for winning the battle. My god, is it any wonder that Arya doesn't trust her? LOL. But, yeah, it would still suck if they would commit to a characterization like Sansa wants power or Arya wants to kill anyone who looks at her sideways and stick to it, it would at least be consistent, but we know they will not stick to this last cat fight beyond the end of the season. So, yeah, as you say, nothing is nothing. Oh well, one more episode to go. This entire season seems like filler and fanfic. I'm watching the show now just to see who turns out to be AA (if it is even actually one person) and who sits the damnable IT in the end. Apparently there was an alleged email floating around in which GRRM insisted on D&D not making a change he disliked regarding the storyline of a central character. So who knows, maybe he still does have a say on how some of the characters' arcs end up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 15 minutes ago, teej6 said: Oh well, one more episode to go. This entire season seems like filler and fanfic. I'm watching the show now just to see who turns out to be AA (if it is even actually one person) and who sits the damnable IT in the end. Apparently there was an alleged email floating around in which GRRM insisted on D&D not making a change he disliked regarding the storyline of a central character. So who knows, maybe he still does have a say on how some of the characters' arcs end up. Is there by change a copy or more specifics around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just now, Pandean said: Is there by change a copy or more specifics around? There is a reddit subthread that has all the leaks from season 7 and all or most of the alleged leaks from next season, including what that poster is referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: There is a reddit subthread that has all the leaks from season 7 and all or most of the alleged leaks from next season, including what that poster is referring to. What is it called? *doesn't really use reddit whoops* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 hours ago, winter daughter said: Sansa was terrified after seeing a bag of human faces and then Arya talked about carving her face and putting it on. if it was not mean then what was it? The whole scene is an entire message by Arya: Game of faces, about making a lie sound believable, in answer to questions. Initially it appears that Arya's gonna ask the questions and Sansa has to answer them. Sansa asks questions and Arya answers them one by one, not hiding who or what she is Eventually Arya "sounds" convincingly creepy about taking Sansa's face, while stepping towards Sansa with a VS dagger, after pointing out from the start that those 100 men loyal to Sansa aren't in the room. Does she sound like she means it? Sure. Sansa's flipping: not just out of fear what Arya will do to her but what Arya has become. She shows concern for Arya, which is something Arya actually never witnessed from Sansa before towards her. Arya flips the dagger and gives it to Sansa and walks off: her actions tell how her threats were a lie. If you want to keep viewing those lines isolated from the whole context of that scene, then you only see what you want to see. Arya wanted Sansa to fully experience and realize how deadly Arya could be and would be able to get away with it, if that was what Arya wanted. So, yes, she had to make it sound very believable. Arya proves she doesn't actually want Sansa's face or dresses (she wanted to be a knight, remember) by handing the dagger... which is a callback to Brienne-Arya fight scene where Arya changes the dagger from hand to an other, after she misled Brienne to block the right hand, but ends up holding the dagger to Brienne's throat with the other hand... you know Brienne who swears she's only trying to protect Cat's children (int he same episode where effing LF tells to Bran he's only trying to help and protect Cat's children and gives Bran the dagger; and you know whose throat that dagger was held before right?) Arya's on to LF, but for some reason does not believe she can talk to Sansa in confidence. Given the fact that LF tried to make it look as if Sansa wanted the letter to suppress it, her worry over it and initial defense she shouldn't be using against her sister of all people and then her snooping in Arya's chamber that is not entirely reasonable. And since LF is creeping around as well to check whether his plan is working might have something to do with it. LF is totally pumping his fist behind Arya's door, thinking his plan worked, and he made the two sisters enemies. But Arya gives Sansa the dagger in silence. Watch words and actions, and if the two don't add up, go by actions. Now a psychopath for example like LF would give his target the sweetest words as if he can make their dreams come true, but in their actions would betray their true evil intentions. Arya says the worst words she can tell her sister, but does the most peaceful action. Again, I think this plotline is based on as bad premisses and reasoning than the whole dumb wight hunt is: the letter was known already in S1 and handwaved by Robb and Cat in question. So the Northern Lords will too. They won't run from Jon over that. It's not an actual threat. It's up to you whether you believe that Sansa is so insecure that she would believe nobody would follow her or Jon if that letter is reintroduced, after she married a Lannister and then a Bolton. there have to be 2 such letters. In the books there were: one sent to Robb and one to Cat, with one taken as far as Moat Cailin and the other still at WF, if the rookery didn't fall in disrepair. In the show that has not been established. And since Arya makes so much about Sansa's handwriting, it's certainly not a copy that Luwin made. LF should be dead by the end of S5 already, at the latest S6 for all the shit he pulled. Arya and Sansa would know where to have a talk without fearing LF's little birds he doesn't have. Sansa should be a person who should be able to talk as honestly to Arya as she does to Jon at times (except when the plot requires her to be a mute to him about a Vale army). There's no question that this plot is contrived, and all set-up to end LF's life. Now you can fall for D&D's troll to choose a side between the sisters, or actually look at their glaringly inconsistent action to their advice given or just contrasting what they just said, and go either "ooooh, Sansa's xyz!" or "Arya's a psycho" combined with "Sansa sending away Brienne and Arya giving the dagger makes no sense"... or don't fall for the troll and accept that Sansa sending Brienne away against LF's advice and Arya giving the dagger to Sansa matters and is actually the most important choices by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster_Under_the_Bed Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Illiterati said: I believe Sansa is growing beyond perennial victim, and Arya never was the victim type. All roads point to a scheme against LF. Well, not all. Sansa sending Brienne away, one of the most proven and trusted people she has, suggests that she is planning to move against Arya rather than LF. Whether she will succeed or not, I don't know, but I am pretty sure she will try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Am I the only one who thinks it would be hilarious (and sad as hell) if this entire drama thing was just what it is at face value--no elaborate theories or trolling or playing games or whatever And just Arya kinda acting like a bitch and Sansa not explaining anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illiterati Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Monster_Under_the_Bed said: Well, not all. Sansa sending Brienne away, one of the most proven and trusted people she has, suggests that she is planning to move against Arya rather than LF. Whether she will succeed or not, I don't know, but I am pretty sure she will try. Or that she is giving LF a false sense of triumph before his fall....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illiterati Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just now, Pandean said: Am I the only one who thinks it would be hilarious (and sad as hell) if this entire drama thing was just what it is at face value--no elaborate theories or trolling or playing games or whatever And just Arya kinda acting like a bitch and Sansa not explaining anything It would be hilarious, sad, and mindnumbingly confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz0680 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 56 minutes ago, Pandean said: Yeah. Arya and empathy are not very chummy, IMHO. You would be wrong. Empathy is a defining character trait for Arya, both in the books and the show and she has waaay more of it than any of her family does. It has been displayed many times and indeed, her empathy is what has stoked her rationality and actions in many situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illiterati Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just now, Gaz0680 said: You would be wrong. Empathy is a defining character trait for Arya, both in the books and the show. It has been displayed many times and indeed, her empathy is what has stoked her rationality and actions in many situations. But in the case of e5 and e6, she's been void of empathy. Which at the risk of becoming repetitive to the point of propaganda, convinces me it's all an act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 15 hours ago, The Bastard of Summer said: Man for the past two weeks whenever i read these boards it seems like only myself and two other people are making these connections. Thank you for the wonderfully worded post. Everyone else is so ready to make Arya a villan but cry when people point out the dark POSSIBILITIES in Sansa. Arya is smart as fuck. She's not evil. A killer yes. A TRAINED KILLER WITH A CODE. But not a psycho. If shes crazy for killing people who actually wronged her and her family and friends then every knight and solider in Westeros is also psycho. Arya has been showing this type of calm, self-controlled behavior since she drank from the pool and got her eyesight back. Whenever Maisie has her hands behind her back and smirks a bit, she's "no one". Oh, that's right, that's when she had an assignment to off an envious young woman who wanted the older lead actress killed, and she refused to do it, in fact alerting the older actress of what was happening. But the basic plot then was that she fucked up, because she refused to do so openly, while the waif was spying on her whether she did her job right. Arya uses that hands behind her back walk and little smirk (which is actually a Jaquen impression, not a waif one) when she tries to get passage to a boat, etc. People then believed it was Jaquen testing the Waif, but Maisie already did the Jaquen impression in her Cat of the Canals disguise while watching the play. It's always been Arya, but an objective, observing, dissociating Arya. Twice over she repeats this episode she wanted to become a warrior, both previous and this episode she reminded how Sansa had different interests than hers. So, combine that fact about Arya, which she acknowledges and actually being in a dissociative state, and you know her actually being jealous of Sansa's face and clothes is BS. She refused to do her aasignment in Braavos, because she doesn't believe it's right to kill anyone all to be in the lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Okra Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Illiterati said: Are you one of those members of audience that would need a color picture drawn for them, the reason modern movie directors give too much away so fans will get it? Errr. I know how tv/movie scripts go and they show you what is going on on tv or at least leave hints in there for you to find. And this tv show is written for casuals my friend. It isn't written for the hardcore book readers who are on message boards posting wild theories. There is foreshadowing of every single thing that has happened on the show when it comes to plot twists. And what you are describing is a plot twist where they show us LF playing Arya/Sansa the entire time but then, at the end, we discover it was really Sansa/Arya playing Littlefinger. Maybe you are right and the plot twist is coming but if that is indeed the case then it has been terrible writing by the writers because there is nothing coming from Arya to indicate she is playing Littlefinger on screen.....ever. And, everything Arya says about Sansa is just based in some not real universe........Sansa betrayed her family......Sansa wanted the nice room so she could feel better than others.......we know from the show that those are not true. 1 hour ago, Illiterati said: LF is a spy. He's a spy with a network of spies. He prides himself on knowing everything that goes on, just as Varys....well, used to, when he was GRRM's Varys. It takes little imagination to see that Arya, knowing what LF is, does not need to interact directly with LF to communicate directly to LF. She is using his own network and tendencies against him. Arya got spy identifier training in Bravos? I didn't know. Arya barely knows who LF is in the show. I mean, how much time has Arya spent with LF or spent around those who truly know LF.......almost none. You're trying to imbue Arya with skills/knowledge they don't ever show her acquiring on the show. We don't see faceless men learning to manipulate people......ever. It doesn't happen in the show. Faceless men just are ultimate assassins, not counter spies. When did Arya spend time learning the ins and outs of how Littlefinger works? In tv shows, they show that kind of stuff if they intend to use it later. 1 hour ago, Illiterati said: Start with the "I'm coming after you" look Arya gives LF after sparring and work forward from there. I believe Sansa is growing beyond perennial victim, and Arya never was the victim type. All roads point to a scheme against LF. You are down to a look. That's it. Arya gave LF a look that showed she didn't like/trust/out to get Littlefinger. I'm just going by what has been put in the tv show. And if I have to use a ton of imagination to get a whole overall plot theme then the writers are failing so bad.....like atrociously horrific. Thankfully, they aren't doing that bad at all. They are portraying the characters consistently really. Arya worships death and puts a great value on just killing her enemies. If you ain't killing enemies then she has little respect for you at this point it appears. Having other people kill your enemies isn't worth much. Getting armies to follow you.....who cares? Just kill people. Death is a gift. The arc for Arya turning really dark has been at play for a long time now. Going back to her time with the Hound. Look at who has taught Arya for the past 5 years......killers and assassins.......not manipulative schemers. The show has clearly shown that while Arya thought she was spying an unaware LF.......Littlefinger was aware the entire time. And it has been LF playing Arya like a fiddle but Sansa has been holding her own so far with LF. If the plot reaches a proper conclusion as has been written (I suspect it will) then Sansa would become aware of a way (via Bran) to rid herself of LF while salvaging the Vale as supporters for Jon. I just don't like where they've taken Arya but I'm hoping she turns from this dark path after the LF plot unfolds (recognizes she was played) and Gendry shows back up. She had a huge crush on Gendry so there's a door here (groundwork laid) for her to turn from just being a cold assassin once he and Jon show up. You are right about Sansa being victimized the entire show. People having been flinging crap at Sansa since the very first episode. She's been through Joffrey and Cersie.......then her own Aunt......then she gets Ramsey and now she's finally safe at home except her own blood.....her sister......who appears to be bat shit crazy......is overtly threatening and taking Ramsey/Joffrey/Cersie type joy in seeing her scared from threatening her repeatedly. Arya's accusations of treason were basically the same crap Sansa got from Joffrey.......go back and watch some scenes. Arya didn't become a knight as she dreamed. Instead, she became a cold blooded death worshiper????? Let's hope that something happens to get her off that path by show's end. The thing I find interesting about that last dialog. Arya wanted to be a knight but then she found her true calling? She seems happy now about not being a knight but instead a faceless man. Sansa wanted to be Queen but now she's perfectly content to be home in Winterfell helping her family. It is like they both have found a sense of purpose in their eventual roles to me. If only Arya understood that Sansa doesn't want to be Queen anymore......she just wants to be a Stark in Winterfell helping her family......but we are going to get that resolution eventually. I'm sure of it. I know one thing, Arya better come to her senses about Sansa before Jon returns or he's going to be giving her a stern lecture about Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugela Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Arya is turning out to be quite an unpleasant character and not in the least bit pragmatic or empathic of other people's problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illiterati Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 There is SO MUCH MORE than the look. Everything Arya has said has been trapsetting. Everything. Down to saying all she needs to be Sansa is her face. She's not enlightening Sansa, telling her anything she doesn't already know about Sansa, this is all for LF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, Illiterati said: It would be hilarious, sad, and mindnumbingly confusing. Honestly, considering D&D's writing skills...I'm expecting that to happen. I can't believe this set up thing because I just can't see D&D doing something that may actually make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz0680 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Pandean said: I took that as a more mean spirited "yeah I'm suuure you went through shit ha" i may have mistaken it but Arya's tone came off less empathetic and more mocking to me at least If that is how you interpreted her saying "I can imagine a lot", then you are clearly just looking for any reason to dislike Arya more. There was ZERO mocking in her tone in that comment which was stated quite matter-of-factory and was clearly reflective of Arya knowing and seeing a lot from her own experiences, so she can imagine all sorts of horrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster_Under_the_Bed Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 12 minutes ago, Illiterati said: Or that she is giving LF a false sense of triumph before his fall....... But what for? In order to fool the show's audience? That would be a B-movie plot device. She could have had him killed already by giving a simple order to Brienne. LF stressed to Sansa that Brienne swore to protect both Stark sisters. He said it in a way implying that it's Sansa who would need Brienne's protection, but those words can just as easily be construed that if they want to get rid of Arya, then it would be best to get Brienne out of the picture first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Okra Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 20 minutes ago, Pandean said: Am I the only one who thinks it would be hilarious (and sad as hell) if this entire drama thing was just what it is at face value--no elaborate theories or trolling or playing games or whatever And just Arya kinda acting like a bitch and Sansa not explaining anything Arya doesn't want explanations nor does she accept them in these scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Lord Okra said: Arya doesn't want explanations nor does she accept them in these scenes. Truth. With the way her character is acting, anything Sansa explains would probably be taken as admitting guilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.