Lord Okra Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said: Can ignore the entire post beyond those two words. Perhaps you'd like to expand your thoughts. Are you saying the audience doesn't know Sansa was screaming and crying and being held back at her father's execution? Are you saying the audience doesn't know that Sansa protested being given her parents old bedroom? Perhaps some in the audience are blind but the vast majority do know those things......since they were in the fricking show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Pandean said: Yeah, I'm speaking show!sansa since this is talking about what Arya said in the show. And in the show, I do believe Arya did see Sansa start fighting and screaming and the like before Yoren made her look away. It's odd that she would just ignore that--which leads me to still wonder if Arya really thinks Sansa was treated well in King's Landing. It seems like Arya's POV is that Sansa is and always will be a pampered princess while Arya and everyone else suffered. I could be wrong, but that's my take from it. Arya doesn't seem to believe Sansa might've gone through something as well. Someone needs to reanimate Cat so she can do what she threatened to do with Renly and Stannis---grab them by the ear, lock them in a room until they overcome their differences. As long as there's no pointy objects. Edited my previous post. Sansa, in the books, falls to her knees like in the show. I'm not sure that in the show, Arya sees Sansa screaming and falling. But I could be wrong. I haven't seen the episode in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 25 minutes ago, teej6 said: I think Cat is know as Catelyn Stark after her marriage. Cersei, otoh, is never referred to as Cersei Baratheon. It's all over the place in the books. IIRC, Elia Martell is never referred to as Elia Targaryen either. And I'm sure there are other instances of women being referred to by their maden names after marriage. It is all over the place, but consistently, the children have the name of their father, not their mother. Even in Dorne the Red Viper's bastards are called Sand and not Martell despite being recognized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just now, Cas Stark said: It is all over the place, but consistently, the children have the name of their father, not their mother. Even in Dorne the Red Viper's bastards are called Sand and not Martell despite being recognized. Yes, the children do but I was talking about the wives adopting their husbands' names or keeping their father's. I don't know if there's a reason for Cersei staying Cersei Lannister or Elia staying Elia Martell or Elia of Dorne or if it's just an oversight on GRRM's part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just now, teej6 said: Yes, the children do but I was talking about the wives adopting their husbands' names or keeping their father's. I don't know if there's a reason for Cersei staying Cersei Lannister or Elia staying Elia Martell or Elia of Dorne or if it's just an oversight on GRRM's part. I always took Cersei Lannister to be a nod that she is Lannister through and through and never let's anyone forget it, but that should be an exception, the rest of the married women should be referred to the way Cat was, as a Stark. So, not sure why Elia was referred to as a Martell, and I can't remember any others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: I always took Cersei Lannister to be a nod that she is Lannister through and through and never let's anyone forget it, but that should be an exception, the rest of the married women should be referred to the way Cat was, as a Stark. So, not sure why Elia was referred to as a Martell, and I can't remember any others. I agree Cersei is an exception to the rules and apart from her and Elia, I can't atm remember anyone else keeping their maiden name after marriage. Was Margaery called Margaery Tyrell after her marriage to Tommen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darksnider05 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, Lord Okra said: Perhaps you'd like to expand your thoughts. Are you saying the audience doesn't know Sansa was screaming and crying and being held back at her father's execution? Are you saying the audience doesn't know that Sansa protested being given her parents old bedroom? Perhaps some in the audience are blind but the vast majority do know those things......since they were in the fricking show. What the audience knows should never be used to judge anyone in verse as they can not have that knowledge as their not watching the shows or reading the books. A member of the audience saying a character should know better, because of what the audience knows is a bit of an oxymoron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winter daughter Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 23 minutes ago, teej6 said: IIRC, in the books, we don't see Sansa's reaction cause we are getting the description of Ned's execution from Arya's POV. We do see Sansa's reaction from Arya's POV: Dimly, as if from far off, Arya heard her sister scream. Sansa had fallen to her knees, sobbing hysterically. Ser Ilyn Payne climbed the steps of the pulpit. A woman stumbled and Arya ran up her back, cutting to both sides, but it was no good, no good, there were too many people, no sooner did she make a hole than it closed again. Someone buffeted her aside. She could still hear Sansa screaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, teej6 said: I agree Cersei is an exception to the rules and apart from her and Elia, I can't atm remember anyone else keeping their maiden name after marriage. Was Margery called Margery Tyrell after her marriage to Tommen? Yes. And Sansa was called Sansa Stark, not Sansa Lannister, by everyone except for Stannis. It just apparently depends on who is talking/how important the House is/what is considered to be important about said woman/how she identifies herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just now, winter daughter said: We do see Sansa's reaction from Arya's POV: Dimly, as if from far off, Arya heard her sister scream. Sansa had fallen to her knees, sobbing hysterically. Ser Ilyn Payne climbed the steps of the pulpit. A woman stumbled and Arya ran up her back, cutting to both sides, but it was no good, no good, there were too many people, no sooner did she make a hole than it closed again. Someone buffeted her aside. She could still hear Sansa screaming. My mistake then. And yes we also have Sansa's reaction from her POV chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Tianzi said: Yes. And Sansa was called Sansa Stark, not Sansa Lannister, by everyone except for Stannis. It just apparently depends on who is talking/how important the House is/what is considered to be important about said woman/how she identifies herself. I believe Sansa was just called Sansa by everyone around her. I don't know if characters continued to refer to her as Sansa Stark after her marriage. I'll have to go back check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Okra Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said: What the audience knows should never be used to judge anyone in verse as they can not have that knowledge as their not watching the shows or reading the books. A member of the audience saying a character should know better, because of what the audience knows is a bit of an oxymoron. I haven't said she should know better. The audience knows she's totally wrong. I haven't said Arya knows she is wrong. But she should know better than to assume a bunch of bs about sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Okra Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 minute ago, teej6 said: I believe Sansa was just called Sansa by everyone around her. I don't know if characters continued to refer to her as Sansa Stark after her marriage. I'll have to go back check. They call her lady sansa or sometimes lady stark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 27 minutes ago, Pandean said: Arya doesn't seem to believe Sansa might've gone through something as well. Not true: Arya says empathically she can imagine quite a lot, in response to Sansa claiming she went through lots Arya cannot imagine. Hell there was a damn play in Braavos about her marriage to Tyrion, including Tyrion bedding her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Lord Okra said: They call her lady sansa or sometimes lady stark If they do call her Lady Stark it's prolly because the Lannisters want to remind everyone of her claim to WF. But then again, WF is given to the Boltons so Sansa ceases to have any claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Okra Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, teej6 said: If they do call her Lady Stark it's prolly because the Lannisters want to remind everyone of her claim to WF. But then again, WF is given to the Boltons so Sansa ceases to have any claim. Tee, let me clarify because I didn't read your entire conversation. I don't know what the Lannisters call Lady Sansa. The people in Winterfell right now call her Lady Sansa or Lady Stark (the guards who let Arya into WF called her Lady Stark). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 10 hours ago, winter daughter said: not true. "I came here every day when I was a girl. I prayed to be somewhere else. back then I only thought about what I wanted, never about what I had. I was a stupid girl." That was to LF. But thank you for pointing it out. I tried to put S6 out of my mind asap. So, my bad. she should have just said that to Arya at the beginning. Though when she became emotional, Arya backed off and showed more empathy, asking what Sansa's afraid of. 10 hours ago, winter daughter said: She was joking. she laughed after she said it. She smiled and hugged Arya, but I didn't take that as a joke particularly. Nor did Arya who remained aloof initially. And only warmed after Sansa said more openly she wished she had killed Joffrey. 10 hours ago, winter daughter said: but threatening to peel her face off after she found those faces in her bag was just mean. It would be if Arya kept the dagger. That she didn't. She gave it with the handle pointing to Sansa, as harmless as can be. So, she made that threat for entirely different reasons than "OMG how mean!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, Lord Okra said: I haven't said she should know better. The audience knows she's totally wrong. I haven't said Arya knows she is wrong. But she should know better than to assume a bunch of bs about sansa. The audience does not know that Arya is totally in the wrong. That's the whole point of this whole faux drama. People could interpret Sansa as being innocent of any thoughts of betraying Jon or people could interpret it as Arya being right and Sansa subconsciously wishing Jon dead so she can rule WF and the North. And if you see the Inside Episode segments, D&D want to create this ambiguity so that they can create tension and drama in WF. And Arya doesn't have to believe Sansa. The Sansa she knew coveted a life different from WF. She desired and wanted to be queen and the finer things to the point of even lying (lie of omission) at the Trident. And then all Arya knows of Sansa is that she married a Lannister and after that a Bolton. We are not shown anyone on screen explain Sansa's suffering and determination to stay alive to Arya. So no, Arya has no reason not to feel Sansa is in it for herself especially after that stupid letter she finds. Lady Mormont last season questioned Sansa's loyalty not knowing anything about her so why is it so hard to believe that Arya will also question Sansa's loyalty considering Arya's impression of Sansa growing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, Lord Okra said: Tee, let me clarify because I didn't read your entire conversation. I don't know what the Lannisters call Lady Sansa. The people in Winterfell right now call her Lady Sansa or Lady Stark (the guards who let Arya into WF called her Lady Stark). That of course they will cause she's the Lady of WF in the show. They definitely are not going to refer to her as Lady Lannister or Bolton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Pandean said: I definitely agree with this. TBH, I think some attitudes of certain characters on the show are misogynistic, not extremist feminist (though they can be considered very similar). Not wanting to wear nice dresses and knit is fine---criticizing others for it and claiming it makes them lesser than is not. That is misogynistic and it always struck me as interesting how much Arya plays into that role, for someone who hates the roles confined to women in the period they are in. I also find it interesting that the bullying in the show between sisters is slightly reversed--in the books Sansa was definitely a brat and mean toward Arya but in the show it seems like Arya is a lot more hostile to Sansa. IDK, I think they may be trying to make Arya look like Little Miss Badass but in the end are just ruining her character. Sansa is also arguably one of the strongest GoT characters, both due to her development and her arcs. Great minds think alike! (only kidding) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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