Echoes of the Last Hero or separate heroes?

[AlaskanSandman]

On 8/24/2017 at 0:18 AM, falcotron said:

The standard assumption among fandom—and among Maesters, red priests, and Yi Ti scholars, according to the World app—is that the Last Hero, Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, etc. are all the same person, and the different myths are all just echoes of the same event that happened in Westeros in the War for the Dawn.

And you can see how this could work. For example, the Yi Ti myth of the Long Night has the Emperor building the Five Forts and then the monkey-tailed girl defeating the Lion of Night, and this is just the Last Hero defeating the Others and Bran the Builder building the Wall in reverse. Not hard to see how small changes like that could creep in over thousands of years and thousands of kilometers.

But the thing is, those Five Forts do exist, and they are as old as the Wall, and there aren't any other myths to explain them. (There is a theory that they were built by Valyrians, but there's the same theory for everything from Hightower to Ib, and, as with all those theories, the timeline doesn't work, and there's no evidence of Valyrians ever coming anywhere near the area.) The fortress city that Hyrkoon built after saving the world also exists, and has no other foundation myth. And so on. That's kind of weird.

And meanwhile, not all of the stories are as easy to match up to the Last Hero as Azor Ahai. The Rhoynar version has their hero traveling to the source of the Rhoyne and getting the river gods to stop fighting and sing a magic song together.

And finally, it seems like the Long Night happened everywhere (although I'm really curious what happened south of the equator, if anyone lives in deep Sothoryos…), but it also doesn't sound like it was equally bad in all places. The entire world covered in night and winter compared to the Rhoyne freezing to half its length aren't really comparable. It's like the post-medieval "little ice age" that had terrible effects around the Atlantic coasts from Europe to Mexico, but was only mildly annoying in Asia.

So, what would it mean if these were all entirely separate events? What would have happened if, say, the river gods sang their song, but the monkey-tailed girl had failed to defeat the Lion? Would the night have receded in western Essos but not far eastern Essos? Or is that not possible because one of them succeeding would be enough somehow, or because the outcome was predestined in the first place?

I suppose we'll get the answer if the Others pass the Wall. What will happen in Braavos or Ib? Will Others climb out of the Shivering Sea, or will they face ice giants or sentient mists or some other threat connected to their own history instead of Westeros's, or will it just get colder and darker and there's nothing they can do about it except help the fight in Westeros?

TWOIAF states that the Rhoyne froze all the way down to the joining of the Selhoru. If you draw a line through the map, it shows that in Westeros, the Ice stopped at Dorne. Which ive always found interesting and others have drawn many similar conclusion about the war for the dawn being fought in the south and Dorne and the Hightower being last refuges of man. Hence Starfall and Dawn, the legend of the Last Hero probably stated in Dorne, with the forging of Dawn by the First Dayne. There's the Battle Isle hint, and also the Green Mountains of Dorne, now the Red Mountains of Dorne. There's legends of Dragons on Battle Isle when Hightowers arrive, and legends from the Reach and Riverlands well after about Dragon Slayers such as Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragon Slayer, and possibly Florian the Fool. Dragons from Dorne? Though a counter point is the Gargoyles on Winterfell. Ice Dragons? 

As far as the heroes? Ive always taken at least most of them to be accounts of the same person told through out many cultures, changing the tale slightly to their area. Hence the name Azor Ahai, become Huzhor Amai as we go west, then Hugor of the Hill, then Hukko.

Note that wayyy back then, the Dothraki sea was flooded with water and known as the Silver Sea. So Mother Mountain, was an Island much like the God's Eye. The Hill? of Hugors legend? The birth place of Huzhor Amai? Son of the last Fisher Queen, son of the Opal Emperor. Younger brother to Nissa Nissa, the Amethyst Empress. Who sailed to Westeros via the Grey King legend? To become the Last Hero? 

I agree that he may not have been alone though, he may have had a sister and a loyal eldest (older) brother?. 3 vs 7? A common theme. The wall is 700 ft by 300 miles. Eddard's dream, they were 7 on 3. (Note Eddard is Ice at the Tower of Joy where Fire is possibly reborn with 3 knights defending him).

So i think it's all mostly the same guy, who started in the East where the corruption first happened, and ended in Westeros where his children (the 3) defeat him. Problem is, this guy lived before the long night and into it, having lived for 1000 years. Human kind being devastated after the Long Night, and all the legends and myths being mixed and mingled and appearing historically off in time frame due to this devastation and slow rebuild of each society. Some never having existed before the Long Night, such as the Sarnori, Rhoynar, House Stark, and the Valyrians. Hence, all these cultures tracing origin back to some legendary figure. I even question Grazdan the Great. The Harpy of old bearing a Lightening Bolt rather than the Chains of todays Harpy. 

[falcotron]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As far as the heroes? Ive always taken at least most of them to be accounts of the same person told through out many cultures, changing the tale slightly to their area.

I'm skipping over the Dornish stuff because I don't think it's relevant here—yes, there are tons of interesting parallels between Dawn and Lightbringer, etc., but I don't think any of that changes the question of whether AA=LH=Hyrkoon=etc. But if I'm wrong, please let me know how it matters so I can look into it more; I'm always happy to have more to look up.

Anyway, the books present that as the "standard" account—Melisandre seems to believe that AA=LH in-story (although she never talks about LH directly), and in the two relevant WoIaF chapters we're told that the Maesters generally agree that they're all the same. and so do the scholars of Yi Ti. But I'm questioning whether maybe they're wrong.

There are things about the stories that don't work if you take them that way (except by explaining them away as a game of telephone, but a realistic game of telephone wouldn't leave anywhere near as many details after 8000 years and 6000 miles, and besides, that works just as well for any alternative theory, and leaves us with nothing fun to play with—it's fine as a last resort, but we shouldn't go jumping to it as the main explanation for everything). Of course the alternatives also have problems, but I'm trying to explore whether those problems might be easier to solve.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Hence the name Azor Ahai, become Huzhor Amai as we go west, then Hugor of the Hill, then Hukko.

But how does that explain that the nearest names? Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser don't sound like close relatives to Azor Ahai on the way to Huzhor Amai. (Yes, "Shadowchaser" sounds like an obvious Common translation of an epithet, rather than a name, but getting from Azor to Eldric to Huzhor still doesn't work.)

Meanwhile, if all of those heroes are actually LH, how could half of them have gone on to do other things all over the world? Did LH head back east after defeating the Others and found the Andal, Tall Men, Hyrkoon, etc. civilizations, taking enough time to sire 44 sons with one wife in one place and build a mighty mountain fortress city in another and so on? Or was he old enough to have done all of that before even going to Westeros? Or did none of those things actually happen?

And meanwhile, we don't have any hint that Huzhor Amai, etc. are even related to the Long Night, much less that they're LH, and the little we know about them seems hard to fit. Obviously if Hugor sired 44 sons with his beloved first wife, and he's also AA who sacrificed his beloved wife to make a sword, the former must have come first. But then we've got a prophecy that his sons will gain great kingdoms in foreign lands he'd never see, followed by him going to those exact foreign lands centuries ahead of his sons and saving everyone and coming home. 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I agree that he may not have been alone though, he may have had a sister and a loyal eldest (older) brother?. 3 vs 7? A common theme. The wall is 700 ft by 300 miles. Eddard's dream, they were 7 on 3. (Note Eddard is Ice at the Tower of Joy where Fire is possibly reborn with 3 knights defending him).

The Last Hero legend—which we get from Nan, who's usually right about these things—is pretty clear on 13.

It's also pretty clear that the Last Hero's original companions all died or left before he finished his quest to find the Children, but (admittedly from non-Nan parts of the story) he got some new companions later, since he created the original Watch, presumably after his deal with the Children, and it's the Watch who defeated (or otherwise dealt with) the Others. But it doesn't seem likely that you'd describe 3 people as the Watch. Plus, if AA=LH, his brother and sister would surely be the people he originally brought with him to Westeros, meaning they'd be people who died on the Quest, not members of the Watch who helped win the Battle of the Dawn.

[Armand Gargalen]

8 hours ago, falcotron said:

I've seen similar theories, but it doesn't work, at all.

Civilizations don't raise and collapse more often in Planetos than in our world, but rather far less often. Rome lasted a few hundred years; Valyria lasted thousands. Rome destroyed the rapidly-expanding Carthaginian state that was barely older than they were; Valyria destroyed the millennia-old Ghiscari Empire. The Anglo-Saxons had a few centuries of domination before the Normans showed up; the Andals had millennia. And so on.

And meanwhile, if frequent collapses were the explanation for technological stagnation, why is it that things seem to have stagnated most during 4000-5000 years of almost total political stability (at least west of the Bone Mountains)?

So, the theory assumes a world history that's almost the opposite of Planetos's, and uses it to predict almost the opposite results to what we see.

Good points. I am not ready to completely drop this theory yet, though, it might work with certain adjustments.

As you point out civilizations do not collapse more often than in our world. Or at least that is what we see in recent history.  I am of the opinion that all history beyond the Doom is to be taken with a pinch of salt, specially the numbers. I can understand the Valyrian empire stability as, its elite ruling class had dragons to help them. But a Ghiscari empire existing for millennia is a stretch.

Maybe Planetos has been in a relatively long stable period for the last centuries. Maybe the Doom signaled a change of cycle, with magic declining steadily from the Doom up to the death of the last dragon. As we see, it never completely disappeared, because there were probably some greenseers, skinchangers and some other minor magical practitioners all along.

Definitely the Doom and its aftermath meant a regress in civilization. Not only Valyria, but also Sarnor fell at this time. The Dothraki Sea expanded significantly as well, engulfing lands that were part of the Ghiscari, Valyrian and Qartheen areas of influence. Westeros also suffered from many wars during this period, until the Targaryens and their dragons imposed a long period of stability.

So maybe the "seasons" can have shorter and longer cycles, and maybe long magical cycles also provide, as in the Valyrian Empire case, more stability.

Still considering other options, though.

[falcotron]

37 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

As you point out civilizations do not collapse more often than in our world. Or at least that is what we see in recent history.  I am of the opinion that all history beyond the Doom is to be taken with a pinch of salt, specially the numbers. I can understand the Valyrian empire stability as, its elite ruling class had dragons to help them. But a Ghiscari empire existing for millennia is a stretch.

My thoughts on the Ghiscari is that they were more like, say, Egypt than Carthage. Classical Egypt was a 300-year-old empire that had some partial connections back to three previous empires in the same general location, which collectively stretched back to 3000 years ago. But it was more impressive for them to call themselves a 3000-year-old empire, and more impressive for Alexander to agree that he'd conquered a 3000-year-old empire, so…

Anyway, we don't see any evidence that humans built modern civilizations and then collapsed multiple times all over Essos. If anything, it looks like much of the world was covered by other species until humanity first expanded into their territories roughly around the same time as the Dawn Age in Westeros.

And, speaking of Westeros, the time line of the First Men there really isn't far at all from British prehistory; it's only after the coming of the Andals when suddenly they've got only a few centuries of British history spread over thousands of years of time. Which is right around the same time as the start of the Valyrian Freehold, give or take a millennium.

Although, now that I think about it, you could make a case for cycles that replace entire species. Maybe, there was a Long Night before the last one, but it was the last gasp of the previous civilization before the Children took over, and so on back. Maybe the Others are actually the next species—millennia ago, they and the humans tried to invade from opposite sides and humans happened to get a head start, but this time it'll go the other way? Or maybe the Others are the remnants of the species before the Children, or some kind of force that represents all the lost species pushed off the edge of the map, and humans are about to be replaced by the brindled men of Sothoryos? (Well, the timeline seems a little off for that, since the First Men were well into Westeros before the last Long Night…)

37 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

Definitely the Doom and its aftermath meant a regress in civilization. Not only Valyria, but also Sarnor fell at this time. The Dothraki Sea expanded significantly as well, engulfing lands that were part of the Ghiscari, Valyrian and Qartheen areas of influence. Westeros also suffered from many wars during this period, until the Targaryens and their dragons imposed a long period of stability.

While there were obviously local regresses and even total collapses, worldwide civilization seems to have mostly survived the Doom untouched.

Westerosi and Free Cities culture didn't get knocked into the stone ages, they ended the Century of Blood roughly around the same place they started it technologically and socially, and then started moving forward from there.

In fact, even during the Century of Blood, sure, Westeros had a lot of wars, but not more than any normal century in European history, and none of them were devastatingly destructive wars that set civilization back.

And across the mountains, although we don't know nearly as much, it sounds like Yi Ti and the Jade Gates civilizations just carried on with little disruption—maybe a little less money trading with the west, but even there, we're told the circle trade was still worth Qarth factions fighting over even in the midst of the collapse of the rest of the Qaathi civilization, so probably not much less trade.

Overall, if you ignore the areas the Dothraki completely destroyed, history for the last 400 years doesn't look too much different from 400 years out of the real-world middle ages.

And that's really the point. They've got 5000 years of realistic prehistory, and 400 years of realistic medieval history, and the only problem is that there's almost 5000 years of classical history wedged in between where there shouldn't be anywhere near that much. That's the only thing that needs to be explained away, and if Valyria can explain it, we're done. Positing historical cycles on top of that creates a problem with their history as we know it, rather than solving one.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, falcotron said:

I'm skipping over the Dornish stuff because I don't think it's relevant here—yes, there are tons of interesting parallels between Dawn and Lightbringer, etc., but I don't think any of that changes the question of whether AA=LH=Hyrkoon=etc. But if I'm wrong, please let me know how it matters so I can look into it more; I'm always happy to have more to look up.

Anyway, the books present that as the "standard" account—Melisandre seems to believe that AA=LH in-story (although she never talks about LH directly), and in the two relevant WoIaF chapters we're told that the Maesters generally agree that they're all the same. and so do the scholars of Yi Ti. But I'm questioning whether maybe they're wrong.

There are things about the stories that don't work if you take them that way (except by explaining them away as a game of telephone, but a realistic game of telephone wouldn't leave anywhere near as many details after 8000 years and 6000 miles, and besides, that works just as well for any alternative theory, and leaves us with nothing fun to play with—it's fine as a last resort, but we shouldn't go jumping to it as the main explanation for everything). Of course the alternatives also have problems, but I'm trying to explore whether those problems might be easier to solve.

But how does that explain that the nearest names? Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser don't sound like close relatives to Azor Ahai on the way to Huzhor Amai. (Yes, "Shadowchaser" sounds like an obvious Common translation of an epithet, rather than a name, but getting from Azor to Eldric to Huzhor still doesn't work.)

Meanwhile, if all of those heroes are actually LH, how could half of them have gone on to do other things all over the world? Did LH head back east after defeating the Others and found the Andal, Tall Men, Hyrkoon, etc. civilizations, taking enough time to sire 44 sons with one wife in one place and build a mighty mountain fortress city in another and so on? Or was he old enough to have done all of that before even going to Westeros? Or did none of those things actually happen?

And meanwhile, we don't have any hint that Huzhor Amai, etc. are even related to the Long Night, much less that they're LH, and the little we know about them seems hard to fit. Obviously if Hugor sired 44 sons with his beloved first wife, and he's also AA who sacrificed his beloved wife to make a sword, the former must have come first. But then we've got a prophecy that his sons will gain great kingdoms in foreign lands he'd never see, followed by him going to those exact foreign lands centuries ahead of his sons and saving everyone and coming home. 

The Last Hero legend—which we get from Nan, who's usually right about these things—is pretty clear on 13.

It's also pretty clear that the Last Hero's original companions all died or left before he finished his quest to find the Children, but (admittedly from non-Nan parts of the story) he got some new companions later, since he created the original Watch, presumably after his deal with the Children, and it's the Watch who defeated (or otherwise dealt with) the Others. But it doesn't seem likely that you'd describe 3 people as the Watch. Plus, if AA=LH, his brother and sister would surely be the people he originally brought with him to Westeros, meaning they'd be people who died on the Quest, not members of the Watch who helped win the Battle of the Dawn.

On the sword bit, i think it's relevant because many of these legendary heroes are said to have magic swords or famous swords such as Azor, The Perfect Knight, Florian the Fool, Brandon of the Bloody Blade, the First Dayne, The Last Hero etc, and may be an identifier to this character. Or not. The working theory by many ive read or listened to, is that the sword myth is part of it. Just as the comet crashing or something from the sky coming down, and there being a bride, and children.  All of which complete (theoretically) his story. 

As far as Maesters and every one else being of mind that these legends are the same, is news to me. I was under the impression that the Maesters do everything possible to discredit such ideas, partially by adhering to a possibly flawed timeline of events.

And i see, my apologies. I didn't realize you were looking for reason's why they dont line up. All of which i think the Maesters present quite well. I think the real work by most fans has been discrediting the Maesters and realigning the legends and myths. I think this may just all seem easy now cause yearsss of effort and research has already been done by many that have come before us, allowing us to easily access multiple theories and ideas we otherwise wouldn't have on our own, and thanks to the internet.

As far as the nearest names? Nods from GRRM to other author's such as H.P. Love Craft and just world building. But the fact that there are so many from the same area i think is more important than why the names dont phonetically change based on the region. Which may actually have an in world excuse. Like Hyrkoon being a name tied to their religion and Eldric (Which does sound similar to Edric) may have been one of Azor's many names. Such as Daenerys Targaryen, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, The Unburnt, etc. Maybe these names are tied to some other title bestowed upon him.

As far as said figure going on to do multiple things like found the Andals and such. Yes. Actually yes, that's what im suggesting. Just not in the way your thinking or imagining. Back then, there was the Silver Sea covering much of Essos, with many tribes of men around it. The Andals you speak of are mentioned by the Maesters as taking there roots around here, then traveling west, arriving at the Axe later and possibly ousting the Harry Men, then going to Westeros. All of this mind you, taking place after the Long Night and the death of said legendary hero. You have to think of the Long Night as a bottle Neck that would have obliterated society and all houses and nations reforming after, none having survived it. The text backs this up too. Next, said Hero likely lived for 1000 years. Durran God's Grief lived 1000 and the Grey King for 1007 and Lann for 300 something (Suggesting Lann is not him but a descendant of his family). The only other people said to live this long are the people of the Empire of the Dawn. Of which many believe said hero was a member of that family. So he began his long life in the Silver Sea, but likely went East (relevant either way), all these people, the Sarnori, the Andals, the Rhoynar, or whom ever, came after him and the Long Night. So they all have legends that link back to him but date to after him and as such, went their own ways, while each retaining different aspects of this Hero. The Faith of the Seven seem to be a more militant version of the Church of Starry Wisdom. All of which have their roots tied to said Hero, but probably not directly founded by him. This Hero mind you, had many wives, and was very fertile. I take it that he had his first wives before he turned, such as the wives around the grass lands, before heading east to have sons, and then turn due to the black stone maybe? At this point though, he is presented his Blue Eyed/Corpse Bride. (Who i like to think is a resurrected Nissa Nissa, but that's just me.)

The bigger challenge i find is trying to figure which is the Hero's father (Possibly Garth/ The Grey King/ and Opal Emperor?) and which is the Hero while good (Azor, Last Hero, First Dayne, Huzhor, Brandon of the Bloody Blade,) and the Hero after he falls (Hugor, Bloodstone Emperor, Night's King) etc. That's just my take but other's align them differently because of the problems with lining them up.

So i hope that explains most of that and why some legends dont mention the Long Night and some do. 

Yes, Nan does associate 13 to the Last Hero. Again, she hint's that said Hero changed later in life as she later links 13 directly to the Night King who is allegedly the 13th Lord Commander who served for 13 years. I dont think he was the 13th Lord Commander, i think he was the first, Brandon the Builder, the Last Hero, who built the Wall, formed the Night's Watch and lead them in the Battle for the Dawn. 

Jon also dies on Jon ch13 of ADWD. 

Yes, there were multiple people who likely fought with the Hero, both during and after. All being different people, yes. The 3, refers not to these people who fought with him, but he the Hero, and his 2 sibling who were among the many people fighting. Albeit 3 of the more important people fighting, as these 3 people are likely the founders of Houses Dayne and Stark, and the Valyrian line. Hence 3 being tied to the Valyrian prophecy that the Dragon having 3 heads. 

I think by denying a link between these myths and legends that you reduce the amount of material for people to chew on and theorize over, but that's just me. I hope my explanation helps explain my side a lil better though

Note* Edit on people during the time of said Hero. The First Men may have come to Westeros fleeing said hero after he turned evil as others have put forward and the TWOIAF does suggest the First Men also took their origin in the Grass Lands around the Silver Sea. 

[Armand Gargalen]

20 minutes ago, falcotron said:

And that's really the point. They've got 5000 years of realistic prehistory, and 400 years of realistic medieval history, and the only problem is that there's almost 5000 years of classical history wedged in between where there shouldn't be anywhere near that much. That's the only thing that needs to be explained away, and if Valyria can explain it, we're done. Positing historical cycles on top of that creates a problem with their history as we know it, rather than solving one.

I think you may have nailed it here, and I was over emphasizing the effect of the magical cycles over the civilizations, at least in the time frame we are giving. I want to make clear that I never suggested there were more advanced civilizations than the one we see now, at least from a societal and purely technological point of view. 

Change of magical cycles still would have a political impact, as the Doom and the eventual death of dragons signified the end of Valyria. It is likely that the Empire of the Dawn also declined as the result of change of cycle.

It is interesting that you made the comparison between Ghiscar and Egypt, because, even though Egypt as a cultural "item" was consistent during 3 millennia, it suffered long "interregnums"  with serious regressions in technological and cultural levels.

[falcotron]

8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As far as Maesters and every one else being of mind that these legends are the same, is news to me. I was under the impression that the Maesters do everything possible to discredit such ideas, partially by adhering to a possibly flawed timeline of events.

For example, the only thing we know about three of these legends is Maester Yandel's "a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser". He's clearly not trying to hide the fact that these are the same legend—he's blatantly assuming they are.

Meanwhile, the Maester anti-magic conspiracy theory is an interesting theory, but (a) it's not actually established fact, and (b) it doesn't imply that they'd have any reason to lie about all history and discredit every myth. (In fact, if it actually did imply that, it would be thoroughly disproven by WoIaF.) 

8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And i see, my apologies. I didn't realize you were looking for reason's why they dont line up. All of which i think the Maesters present quite well. I think the real work by most fans has been discrediting the Maesters and realigning the legends and myths. I think this may just all seem easy now cause yearsss of effort and research has already been done by many that have come before us, allowing us to easily access multiple theories and ideas we otherwise wouldn't have on our own, and thanks to the internet.

But the Maesters don't present that argument at all.

And also, I think you're still missing my point. The ways in which the myths don't line up are obvious. But if you take that seriously and assume they aren't actually meant to be the same myth, the problems with that approach are obvious too. I'm looking for solutions to the problems with the second approach, not for problems with the first one.

Meanwhile, some of the work by fans is overzealous, to say the least, which is why it's sometimes worth looking at the simpler answer to see why part of fandom has rejected it, and whether it might actually be easier and more compelling to fix the simple answer than it was to build the scaffolding for the more complicated one.

8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As far as said figure going on to do multiple things like found the Andals and such. Yes. Actually yes, that's what im suggesting. Just not in the way your thinking or imagining. Back then, there was the Silver Sea covering much of Essos, with many tribes of men around it. The Andals you speak of are mentioned by the Maesters as taking there roots around here, then traveling west, arriving at the Axe later and possibly ousting the Harry Men, then going to Westeros. All of this mind you, taking place after the Long Night and the death of said legendary hero.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Look at what WoIaF actually says about the Silver Sea:

Quote

Some maesters believe that the First Men originated here before beginning the long westward migration that took them across the Arm of Dorne to Westeros. The Andals, too, may have arisen in the fertile fields south of the Silver Sea. Tales are told of the Hairy Men, a race of shaggy savage warriors, who rode to battle on unicorns.

This is the only reference to the idea that the Andals may have come from there. How do you get from there to the Andal still being at the Silver Sea after the Long Night? It implies the exact opposite.

And from here, you go on to assume multiple incompatible crackpots are true, deny one of the few solid facts we have about the Night King right after using that fact to connect other things up… I'll just quote one example rather than going through all of it:

8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The Faith of the Seven seem to be a more militant version of the Church of Starry Wisdom.

The Church of Starry Wisdom, which GRRM borrowed from a Nyarlathotep cult and never refers to without calling it "sinister", and which was supposedly created by the Bloodstone Emperor to conquer the world… the Faith is a more militant version of that? And you think that's an established fact discovered by research, not a crackpot idea some guy had on this forum a few years ago who didn't even get the Lovecraft reference?

8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I think by denying a link between these myths and legends that you reduce the amount of material for people to chew on and theorize over, but that's just me. I hope my explanation helps explain my side a lil better though

I'm not denying a link between them. I'm denying that they're all the same myth. That's not at all the same thing. If the Long Night was a global catastrophe, all of the responses to it are inherently linked in the first place; there's no need to invent radical new chronologies and crackpot theories just to link them.

[AlaskanSandman]

22 minutes ago, falcotron said:

For example, the only thing we know about three of these legends is Maester Yandel's "a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser". He's clearly not trying to hide the fact that these are the same legend—he's blatantly assuming they are.

Meanwhile, the Maester anti-magic conspiracy theory is an interesting theory, but (a) it's not actually established fact, and (b) it doesn't imply that they'd have any reason to lie about all history and discredit every myth. (In fact, if it actually did imply that, it would be thoroughly disproven by WoIaF.) 

But the Maesters don't present that argument at all.

And also, I think you're still missing my point. The ways in which the myths don't line up are obvious. But if you take that seriously and assume they aren't actually meant to be the same myth, the problems with that approach are obvious too. I'm looking for solutions to the problems with the second approach, not for problems with the first one.

Meanwhile, some of the work by fans is overzealous, to say the least, which is why it's sometimes worth looking at the simpler answer to see why part of fandom has rejected it, and whether it might actually be easier and more compelling to fix the simple answer than it was to build the scaffolding for the more complicated one.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Look at what WoIaF actually says about the Silver Sea:

This is the only reference to the idea that the Andals may have come from there. How do you get from there to the Andal still being at the Silver Sea after the Long Night? It implies the exact opposite.

And from here, you go on to assume multiple incompatible crackpots are true, deny one of the few solid facts we have about the Night King right after using that fact to connect other things up… I'll just quote one example rather than going through all of it:

The Church of Starry Wisdom, which GRRM borrowed from a Nyarlathotep cult and never refers to without calling it "sinister", and which was supposedly created by the Bloodstone Emperor to conquer the world… the Faith is a more militant version of that? And you think that's an established fact discovered by research, not a crackpot idea some guy had on this forum a few years ago who didn't even get the Lovecraft reference?

I'm not denying a link between them. I'm denying that they're all the same myth. That's not at all the same thing. If the Long Night was a global catastrophe, all of the responses to it are inherently linked in the first place; there's no need to invent radical new chronologies and crackpot theories just to link them.

Those are literally the only Heroes the Maesters directly link to Azor Ahai. All the irrelevant ones. All the ones of importance, they dont. So kind of invalid. 

As far as Maesters trying to hide or destroy magic? Idk. The Maesters have been around since the Age of Heroes and possibly Long Night. So if any one would know, they would. Maris the Maid married Uthor of the Hightower who commissioned Bran the Builder, who's son's founded the Citidel. 

Um, your next part... Maybe if you gave an example it'd be easier to understand where your coming from. Cause i've already said that they may not all be the same and that other people are working under the same theory, but that some myths are the same. Its either their all the same, some are the same, or none or the same. It seems pretty simple to me. 

Exactly what your talking about and look at what it say's about the Silver Sea? I have, and obviously not seeing what your trying to get at. So some context here would be helpful. 

I never said the Andals were at the Silver Sea after the Long Night, they likely weren't a peoples with their own identity till they arrived at the Axe, merely holding onto the Legend of Hugor up till then. Either way, they appear to be around the Axe after the Long Night or shortly after. Spurned on to Westeros by the Valyrians and the Andals faith. 

And idk how i assumed anything in what your quoted me about Andals and First men possibly having their origins in the Grass Lands around the Silver Sea. It's in the text of TWOIAF. Not an assumptions of "multiple incompatible crackpots". Those crackpots you speak of are the Maesters. So idk what to tell you there. Draw from it what you like but the book clearly suggest exactly that.

And no, the book doesn't state that the Bloodstone Emperor used the Church of Starry Wisdom to take over the world. If im not mistake, it just gives a vague reference to him having possibly founded the Sinister Church of Starry Wisdom. This coming from the Faith of the Seven? That's like Christians, Jews and Muslims arguing, yet all still take their origins in the Old Testament. No where any where in any of the ASOIAF books does it ever mention the Church having dominated any one. The Faith of the Seven on the other hand conquered Westeros and carved their symbols on their heads. Unless you know of a passage and can quote it that states other wise. That's what i get from the text.

Again, no one, absolutely no one ive seen thinks all the myths are the same person linked. Some are tied to his parents, some his siblings, some his children, but all the same family. People like Davos the Dragon slayer, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Balon Blackskin, etc, these are the legends of the normal humans who fought or served this family of demi-gods. Even then, how you line up the myths that are part of the family are debate-able. 

Yes, obviously every one effected by the Long Night would have the same general response to it, to want to survive. I think your missing the point about the Last Hero and Azor Ahai myths. Humans had no defense against the Others, not untill this point. This happening in Westeros, not all over the world. Which brings me to my next point. You seem to assume the Others attacked every where, and no where in the books is that actually mentioned at allllll. The Rhoynar are simply mentioned to have sang a song together to bring back the dawn, never mentions fighting evil cold dead. Again, no where in Yi-ti does it mention the cold undead armies of the Others. It does mention alot of other creepy stuff out there, but nothing about the Others.

The bit about Dorne and the line to which the Long Night fell that you wanted to ignore is important. It shows the limited area of Westeros that the Others effected and the only part of the world they are mentioned to have effected. The Long Night fell every where, but the Others fell on Westeros.

So, it's not untill in Westeros, after the Last Hero makes contact with the CotF, that humans have any chance against the Others. None of the stories from Yi-ti mention the others. Just the armies of the Bloodstone Emperor, not expressly said to be the Others. Just says Azor Ahai was chosen to fight the darkness if i recall right. 

Again, not saying they're all the same and no one else is that i've seen. Im an interested though to see a put together theory by you though fleshing out the ones you think are separate and the ones you think may be tied. I suppose if you think they're all completely separate it'll be a short theory, or that the myths are all lies and just normal people doing normal things being blown into astounding actions like we did with Greek Myth and such. I mean, the real world parallel and world building sense is possible idea. It just seems to go against all of our current characters and the magic they've seen. Such as really old Bloodraven and Melisandre, or resurrected dead men, warging, skinchanging, facechanging, fire magic, Greensight and fire visions, and of course, resurrected dragons. 

[falcotron]

20 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I never said the Andals were at the Silver Sea after the Long Night

Yes you said exactly that. You said that the Andals traveling west from the Silver Sea happened after the Long Night and the death of the Last Hero:

22 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As far as said figure going on to do multiple things like found the Andals and such. Yes. Actually yes, that's what im suggesting. Just not in the way your thinking or imagining. Back then, there was the Silver Sea covering much of Essos, with many tribes of men around it. The Andals you speak of are mentioned by the Maesters as taking there roots around here, then traveling west, arriving at the Axe later and possibly ousting the Harry Men, then going to Westeros. All of this mind you, taking place after the Long Night and the death of said legendary hero.

Meanwhile, you obviously have your own complicated set of theories that you believe in absolutely, and don't want to discuss anything else without fitting them into your theories. I'm not interested in that, at least not in this thread.

[AlaskanSandman]

12 hours ago, falcotron said:

Yes you said exactly that. You said that the Andals traveling west from the Silver Sea happened after the Long Night and the death of the Last Hero:

Meanwhile, you obviously have your own complicated set of theories that you believe in absolutely, and don't want to discuss anything else without fitting them into your theories. I'm not interested in that, at least not in this thread.

Well kinda of hard not to respond to the things you quoted and pointed out but alrighty haha. Still waiting and interested to actually see where your tryin to go with this. Hopefully you put something out. Good luck  

[BalerionTheCat]

On 24/08/2017 at 9:18 AM, falcotron said:

But the thing is, those Five Forts do exist, and they are as old as the Wall, and there aren't any other myths to explain them.

The Five Forts are very old, older than the Golden Empire itself; some claim they were raised by the Pearl Emperor during the morning of the Great Empire to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men

If this is true, the 5 forts would be much older than the Wall. The Pearl Emperor was the 1st emperor after the God-on-Earth. And 5 emperors followed him, ruling each for hundreds of years. The Bloodstone Emperor only came after. And it was his reign which brought the Long Night.

Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men

We don't know why the LN came in Westeros. But we would have an explanation with Yi Ti.

Maybe I'm wrong. But I feel the demons are matching the Others, the Great Other of Melisandre is matching the Lion of Night. The Wall and the 5 forts have the same purpose. The wickedness of men is what happens in Westeros right now and in the years before.

The Lands of Always Winter is certainly connected by ice to the North pole. It is possibly the same for the Grey Waste, further east than the known map.The demons or Others could invade by both side.

Every region has its hero, putting an end to the LN. But none is telling exactly how they did it. Maybe all existed. But only resisting, more or less efficiently, until someone somewhere did the thing that really ended the LN.And all of them were recorded doing it.

On 29/08/2017 at 5:46 AM, falcotron said:

And we've already got a local Yi Tish hero who supposedly solved the problems caused by the Bloodstone Emperor, the monkey-tailed girl who slew the head demon of the Lion of Night, so there doesn't seem to be any more room for AA there than in Westeros.

BTW, where did you found the girl slew the head demon. I only remember:

that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey’s tail

[falcotron]

17 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The Five Forts are very old, older than the Golden Empire itself; some claim they were raised by the Pearl Emperor during the morning of the Great Empire to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men

If this is true, the 5 forts would be much older than the Wall. The Pearl Emperor was the 1st emperor after the God-on-Earth. And 5 emperors followed him, ruling each for hundreds of years. The Bloodstone Emperor only came after. And it was his reign which brought the Long Night.

Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men

We don't know why the LN came in Westeros. But we would have an explanation with Yi Ti.

Exactly. If you assume the demons of the Lion of Night are the same as the Others, we have an explanation for why they came to Yi Ti, but no explanation (at least yet) for why they came to Westeros, and we also have hints that they were harassing Yi Ti for centuries before the Long Night vs. only a few years in Westeros.

Which makes it strange to assume that the whole story is about Westeros, and the Yi Ti version is just a many-times-translated version of their myth, which is part of what inspired me to re-examine this whole thing.

17 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:.

Maybe I'm wrong. But I feel the demons are matching the Others, the Great Other of Melisandre is matching the Lion of Night. The Wall and the 5 forts have the same purpose. The wickedness of men is what happens in Westeros right now and in the years before.

The Lands of Always Winter is certainly connected by ice to the North pole. It is possibly the same for the Grey Waste, further east than the known map.The demons or Others could invade by both side.

Every region has its hero, putting an end to the LN. But none is telling exactly how they did it. Maybe all existed. But only resisting, more or less efficiently, until someone somewhere did the thing that really ended the LN.And all of them were recorded doing it.

Yes, that's a good point. And if the Others are invading both sides from somewhere near the North Pole, each hero could have pushed the Others off the edge of the continent in their region, but only two of them could have pursued them all the way to the North Pole. That does still leave the question of which of the two, and why the other thinks their hero did it (and also, why didn't Santa help? It's right on his doorstep!), but it's at least easier to deal with two than a dozen…

One obvious possibility is that the Others' traditional home base is actually on the Grey Waste side, and the Long Night was about them making the short trek via Santa's workshop to invade Westeros for the first time, which had some new effects because… reasons I'm not sure of, but probably something to do with the Children? You could even have the Last Hero ending the Long Night by pushing them out of Westeros, while Azor Ahai sacks the Others' original base in the Grey Waste while they're away—two separate but obviously not unrelated events which together banished the Others for millennia.

17 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:.

BTW, where did you found the girl slew the head demon.

I think I may have mixed up two stories; sorry about that.