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AryaSansa

LittleFinger from the character's viewpoint

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LF saved Sansa because he believed he could used her to claim the north and along with The Vale forces be in a powerfull position by manipulating her and of course he saved her because he wanted her. He protected her of her aunt to become Lord of the Eyre and protector of "SweetRobin", another person he can manipulate himself and through Sansa. He always wanted to be in power, at least from the shadows.

What I missed was the "I -Sansa of house Stark Lady- of Winterfell and Warden of the North, sentence you to die" speech, which is a clasic

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21 hours ago, tallTale said:

Have to admit, I was bummed they killed Littlefinger. Not an honorable character by any stretch, but He did help save winterfell and He did help save Sansa from kings landing. He came from nothing and built a small empire. I suppose being cucked was the only way for him to die . his one weakness was always the Tully girls.

For me it was the way they killed littlefinger. They made him look like a moron. If I was there, I would of denied all of the charges against me, than asked for a trial by combat. Sansa has clear motive for framing little finger and no evidence against him. 

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8 hours ago, Armand Gargalen said:

His plan follow because he did not fall his own advice, what is kind of silly

But this flowed out of his character conflict.

He believed he was helping Sansa to such a delusional extent that he didn't see that helping Sansa and helping himself were often at odds, and that he'd done things openly against her interests.

Just as he thought he was helping Cat and couldn't see that he was doing things against her interests.

The only difference is that the first time, he got Cat killed, while the second time, he got himself killed.

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On 26/08/2017 at 5:04 PM, AryaSansa said:

All I hear is how LittleFinger is a terrible person from all the characters in the show.  Sure he is terrible, but that's because we see his actions as the audience of the TV show.

What I don't get is how the characters know he is terrible.

For instance, when Sansa got mad at him for marrying her off to Ramsay, she used specious logic where she said if he knew Ramsey was bad, he's evil, if he didn't, he's "an idiot".  If Sansa didn't know herself, would she be an idiot as well?  If Roose Bolton didn't even know, wouldn't he be an idiot too?  The show never demonstrates that Ramsay's psyhotic tendencies are known throughout Westeros, but not too much that it is unknown to Sansa.  Besides, Little Finger's motives / benefits in marrying Sansa to Ramsey aren't exact clear.  The only time Little Finger could be suspected of being evil instead of pragmatic was when she pushed Lysa out the Moon Door.  But even still, that may have saved Sansa in the future since Lysa was endangering Sansa.

Furthermore, Little Finger's actions haven't been entirely consistent with his self-serving nature.  Why save Sansa from King's Landing?  Why save Jon and Sansa vs the Boltons instead of letting the Boltons wipe out Jon and the Vale taking the North for themselves?  And what is his motive in creating faux discord between Sansa and Arya?  He should technically have the largest army stationed in the North.

All this faux drama seems to be a manufactured conflict by the show writers to kill him off.

You're ignoring two very important points:

1.  Littlefinger had a vast network of spies so his not knowing Ramsay was a sadistic psycho is not the same as Sansa or other people  not knowing it.

2.  Littlefinger used people right, left and center.  He didn't 'save' Sansa.  He got her out of KL and then later organised the Vale knights to go north because he had a use for her.  He gained power in the Vale by marrying Lysa, and probably thought he could repeat that in the North by marrying Sansa.

LF's actions were in keeping with his character and made perfect sense to me.

Where I agree with you about the faux drama is the whole Arya and Sansa trap LF storyline.  They had all the info on him they needed without the play acting.  The girls fighting alone in a room with stone walls and solid timber door with no one to witness it was 100% faux drama to fool the viewers.

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56 minutes ago, falcotron said:

But this flowed out of his character conflict.

He believed he was helping Sansa to such a delusional extent that he didn't see that helping Sansa and helping himself were often at odds, and that he'd done things openly against her interests.

Just as he thought he was helping Cat and couldn't see that he was doing things against her interests.

The only difference is that the first time, he got Cat killed, while the second time, he got himself killed.

I don't think for one second LF ever thought he was 'helping' anyone but himself.  He only made it look like he was helping people.

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I personally think some of the mixed views about Littlefinger are the result of the character shift that was "gardened" into ASOS. Early LF is a pimp and opportunist, sure. But he's very good at the game and has risen far on his wits. Compared to Cersei and Jamie, who attempt to murder a little boy because he catches them at their incest, or compared to the psychopath Joffrey, he's one of the more relatable players at King's Landing. If anything, we're annoyed at dull old Ned for -- if not throwing in with him -- at least hearing the smart guy out.

But then in ASOS, Martin decides LF isn't just a pimp and an opportunist, he's an Evil Mastermind. Now we get the retcon where he conspires to murder a good and honorable man, Jon Arryn, in order to start a civil war that will kill tens of thousands of innocents and immiserate millions more merely for his own self-aggrandizement. He'll keep murdering and using innocents for any small personal advantage. He'll set the world on fire if he sees a promotion in it. That Littlefinger is a straight-up monster.

In summary, IMO, there are different views of Littlefinger because there are different Littlefingers, pre- and post-retcon.

 

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New here. Haven't read the books, only seen the show. Did do some plot summary reading for the novels and some wiki reading as well to better understand the characters

From what I gather, LF is a very self-serving man. He plays the game very well - if in the real world, I think he would make a marvelous politician and a ruthless businessman. That's just the way he is. And from what I gather, he would make also do well climbing the corporate ladder. Is he evil? I'm not entirely certain that he is, I think his choice to gain more wealth and power mirrors what many successful people actually do in real life. After all, one doesn't just get rich and influential through hard work alone, it is also by making difficult and harsh decisions, through the connection they have and how well they can read others and the situation around them. The extra element which makes LF stand out is his ability to also use chaos and strife to his advantage. And if it means stepping on others to reach his end goal, so be it. Again, that's nothing out of the ordinary, it's just how real life is as well for some people.

I'm not surprised if LF keeps a good account of his books and can manage his business or any affairs of the state very well. Though, it will always never be for the people but rather to enrich himself or if there is something that could be gained from it - either a favor or even goodwill.  

So it feels logical why he went north after the Vale. There's nothing for him down south, and Essos would almost mean starting over again. Manipulating Sansa and control over her means there is a good chance of him being the Lord of the North as well. Does he love her? Probably, but not as much as he loves himself is my guess. 

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24 minutes ago, Greg B said:

I personally think some of the mixed views about Littlefinger are the result of the character shift that was "gardened" into ASOS.

That's a good point.

But also, show!LF doesn't really have the same change—and he's never really been the same as either AGoT!LF or ASoS!LF. Show!LF is more of the evil mastermind, but without the cover of everyone trusting him because he seems harmless. Nobody likes him, but it's not because he's a low-class little no-account, it's because they can all tell that he's a sneaky weasel who's clearly got some kind of game on even if they can't tell what it is. And I think that causes problems adapting some of the storylines from the novels.

And meanwhile, book readers have an extra problem—we see him not acting like AGoT!LF and take that as evidence that he's now acting like ASoS!LF, when it's not actually evidence for anything of the sort.

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Agreed the issue is that books Littlefinger is totally different since he isn't likable in the show, and isn't a evil mastermind per se;

Just that he has different views on life then Stannis and Varys since he isn't a traditionalist and is somewhat a idealist like the other two who also murder innocent people for their cause.

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13 hours ago, Tywinelle said:

You're ignoring two very important points:

1.  Littlefinger had a vast network of spies so his not knowing Ramsay was a sadistic psycho is not the same as Sansa or other people  not knowing it.

2.  Littlefinger used people right, left and center.  He didn't 'save' Sansa.  He got her out of KL and then later organised the Vale knights to go north because he had a use for her.  He gained power in the Vale by marrying Lysa, and probably thought he could repeat that in the North by marrying Sansa.

LF's actions were in keeping with his character and made perfect sense to me.

Where I agree with you about the faux drama is the whole Arya and Sansa trap LF storyline.  They had all the info on him they needed without the play acting.  The girls fighting alone in a room with stone walls and solid timber door with no one to witness it was 100% faux drama to fool the viewers.

Point 1 is spot on. Point 2 has a flaw. Lysa was madly in love with Littlefinger since they were children. She was forced to marry an old man she didn't have any attraction to, and never grew to even like very much. Once they were reunited as adults, Lysa made it clear to him that she had desperately wanted him for years. She got him appointed to an important local post in the Vale, then later convinced Jon to appoint him as Master of Coin under Robert (where he gets his true power, because he robbed the Crown blind and bought everybody off with the money).

My point is recounting all this stuff is that Lysa was always in love with Littlefinger, and repeatedly reminded him with sex, promotions, and eventually even murdering her husband and setting up her own sister's family to turn against the Lannisters for it. Littlefinger is smart enough to see that Sansa never has nearly as much interest in him. He manages one stolen kiss from her the entire series, and that was only because she didn't know how to react to Uncle Pervert trying to seduce her. The next time he tries to kiss her at Winterfell, he gets embarrassingly shut down.

Sansa also makes it extremely clear that any trust they had is over after she escapes from Ramsay. By the time they meet again, Sansa had already escaped with Theon's help. She has no reason to think he was really ever coming to save her. That, combined with knowing that Sansa is completely sane, unlike Lysa, should have told Littlefinger that she wasn't going to be easily controlled at this point.

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3 hours ago, Lorathi said:

Point 1 is spot on. Point 2 has a flaw. Lysa was madly in love with Littlefinger since they were children. She was forced to marry an old man she didn't have any attraction to, and never grew to even like very much. Once they were reunited as adults, Lysa made it clear to him that she had desperately wanted him for years. She got him appointed to an important local post in the Vale, then later convinced Jon to appoint him as Master of Coin under Robert (where he gets his true power, because he robbed the Crown blind and bought everybody off with the money).

My point is recounting all this stuff is that Lysa was always in love with Littlefinger, and repeatedly reminded him with sex, promotions, and eventually even murdering her husband and setting up her own sister's family to turn against the Lannisters for it. Littlefinger is smart enough to see that Sansa never has nearly as much interest in him. He manages one stolen kiss from her the entire series, and that was only because she didn't know how to react to Uncle Pervert trying to seduce her. The next time he tries to kiss her at Winterfell, he gets embarrassingly shut down.

Sansa also makes it extremely clear that any trust they had is over after she escapes from Ramsay. By the time they meet again, Sansa had already escaped with Theon's help. She has no reason to think he was really ever coming to save her. That, combined with knowing that Sansa is completely sane, unlike Lysa, should have told Littlefinger that she wasn't going to be easily controlled at this point.

Pretty sure it was LF handwork at Gulltown that helped in him getting appointed to Master of Coin, as I doubt Lysa would want LF to be sent out to KL. 

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19 hours ago, Lorathi said:

Point 1 is spot on. Point 2 has a flaw. Lysa was madly in love with Littlefinger since they were children. She was forced to marry an old man she didn't have any attraction to, and never grew to even like very much. Once they were reunited as adults, Lysa made it clear to him that she had desperately wanted him for years. She got him appointed to an important local post in the Vale, then later convinced Jon to appoint him as Master of Coin under Robert (where he gets his true power, because he robbed the Crown blind and bought everybody off with the money).

My point is recounting all this stuff is that Lysa was always in love with Littlefinger, and repeatedly reminded him with sex, promotions, and eventually even murdering her husband and setting up her own sister's family to turn against the Lannisters for it. Littlefinger is smart enough to see that Sansa never has nearly as much interest in him. He manages one stolen kiss from her the entire series, and that was only because she didn't know how to react to Uncle Pervert trying to seduce her. The next time he tries to kiss her at Winterfell, he gets embarrassingly shut down.

Sansa also makes it extremely clear that any trust they had is over after she escapes from Ramsay. By the time they meet again, Sansa had already escaped with Theon's help. She has no reason to think he was really ever coming to save her. That, combined with knowing that Sansa is completely sane, unlike Lysa, should have told Littlefinger that she wasn't going to be easily controlled at this point.

I completely agree with you, except that I was talking about LF's plans and motivations, not how the women in his life saw him.

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