Darth Richard II Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Also, I prefer Ibuprofen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Theda Baratheon said: I mean I'm not American; I'm not overly attached or against Franken - I hadn't even heard of him until all this. So this is purely from an outsider's view - it's possible that there is political motivation behind the accusation...but it's also possible that a man can act differently around different people and that he can have acted inappropriately in a sexual way with a few women that weren't his friends or colleagues or inside his social or professional circle. I don't know. I just don't think it's that much of an argument to say that he didn't harass some women he knew. I find it entirely believable that a man or a woman can act very differently depending on situation and who they're with. It's not possible, it's guaranteed. That's what this is. This only came about due to the Roy Moore allegations. Franken is an especially juicy target due to his role in having Session's perjure himself in regard to the Russia investigation. That's not to say that Franken didn't do these things, but I think it's more than fair to wait for an investigation before we tar and feather him and run him out of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: Also, I prefer Ibuprofen. Generic apologist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: It's not possible, it's guaranteed. That's what this is. This only came about due to the Roy Moore allegations. Franken is an especially juicy target due to his role in having Session's perjure himself in regard to the Russia investigation. That's not to say that Franken didn't do these things, but I think it's more than fair to wait for an investigation before we tar and feather him and run him out of town. It's obvious you like him a lot (this isn't an attack, just saying it means you're not above bias yourself in this conversation) but others posted about the second accuser talking about this in 2010?? What do you think about that? That doesn't seem so politically motivated But to be honest; it seems entirely possible to me that they can be 1) political motivated and 2) also true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 23 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said: I mean I'm not American; I'm not overly attached or against Franken - I hadn't even heard of him until all this. So this is purely from an outsider's view - it's possible that there is political motivation behind the accusation...but it's also possible that a man can act differently around different people and that he can have acted inappropriately in a sexual way with a few women that weren't his friends or colleagues or inside his social or professional circle. I don't know. I just don't think it's that much of an argument to say that he didn't harass some women he knew. I find it entirely believable that a man or a woman can act very differently depending on situation and who they're with. I think it’s like: While character evidence has some probabtive value in whether the accused did the deed, I’d say it’s never quite as persuasive as direct evidence. And both Franken’s accusers have some pretty powerful evidence to back up their claims. One has picture that backs up her account, and another made a couple of statements shortly after the incident, almost seven years ago, which shows she didn’t just wake up one morning and decide to make this accusation. And besides the evidence that the victims have that corroborate their allegations, I think they are deserving to have their claims believed, unless there is decent evidence to refute their claims. And besides, reading the comments from the 36 colleagues, it doesn’t appear that they are saying Franken didn’t do what he was accused of, but more like they saying he is overall a decent guy. In short what they are saying, seems more like something that would get put into a sentencing memorandum, rather than something that would be used as a defense to the charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: I think it’s like: While character evidence has some probabtive value in whether the accused did the deed, I’d say it’s never quite as persuasive as direct evidence. And both Franken’s accusers have some pretty powerful evidence to back up their claims. One has picture that backs up her account, and another made a couple of statements shortly after the incident, almost seven years ago, which shows she didn’t just wake up one morning and decide to make this accusation. And besides the evidence that the victims have that corroborate their allegations, I think they are deserving to have their claims believed, unless there is decent evidence to refute their claims. And besides, reading the comments from the 36 colleagues, it doesn’t appear that they are saying Franken didn’t do what he was accused of, but more like they saying he is overall a decent guy. In short what they are saying, seems more like something that would get put into a sentencing memorandum, rather than something that would be used as a defense to the charge. I mean; I definitely tend to believe the accusers until the accused proves themselves not guilty and I think that photograph is awful. I think it's entirely possible he did what both women are accusing him of whilst also appearing a decent bloke to the 36 women signing that petition. That's just my view of it from a total outsiders perspective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said: It's obvious you like him a lot (this isn't an attack, just saying it means you're not above bias yourself in this conversation) but others posted about the second accuser talking about this in 2010?? What do you think about that? That doesn't seem so politically motivated But to be honest; it seems entirely possible to me that they can be 1) political motivated and 2) also true Yes, however, if Leann Tweeden was politically motivated why didn’t she reveal the photograph and the allegations against Sen. Franken during the hotly contested Senate race in 2008? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 23 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said: I mean; I definitely tend to believe the accusers until the accused proves themselves not guilty and I think that photograph is awful. I think it's entirely possible he did what both women are accusing him of whilst also appearing a decent bloke to the 36 women signing that petition. That's just my view of it from a total outsiders perspective Just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with what you were saying at all. I was just adding to it, because I don't think the statements made by the 36 former co-workers matter all that much in determining that Franken did what he's being accused of, at least with respect to the facts that are in this particular case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: Just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with what you were saying at all. I was just adding to it, because I don't think the statements made by the 36 former co-workers matter all that much in determining that Franken did what he's being accused of, at least with respect to the facts that are in this particular case. Ah, gotcha. Yes - agreed. I never really like the whole argument that's based on: ''well...they were never bad to me!!!!" because if they were bad to other people then that's all that matters. 4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Yes, however, if Leann Tweeden was politically motivated why didn’t she reveal the photograph and the allegations against Sen. Franken during the hotly contested Senate race in 2008? I don't know enough about american politics to answer that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 WoQ, I ask you if Leann Tweeden was politically motivated why didn’t she reveal the photo and allegations during the Senate race Sen. Franken won by only 200 votes? It seems odd that she would wait until now if she is trying to bring down Franken when she could, potentially, have kept him from getting into office in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Theda, It is a better question for WoQ in any event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said: It's obvious you like him a lot (this isn't an attack, just saying it means you're not above bias yourself in this conversation) but others posted about the second accuser talking about this in 2010?? What do you think about that? That doesn't seem so politically motivated But to be honest; it seems entirely possible to me that they can be 1) political motivated and 2) also true Yeah, I copped to that in the political thread. I suppose I should've done so over here as well. I admire the guy, both as a comedian and a politician. I will be the first to admit that it's likely impossible for me to be wholly objective here. That's a fair observation. And yeah, that point regarding her Facebook post back in 2010 was another reason I backed off my initial reaction. And yes, I agree with your last point as well. The fact that this is clearly politically motivated doesn't suggest that it is not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Warlock of Qarth Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Yes, however, if Leann Tweeden was politically motivated why didn’t she reveal the photograph and the allegations against Sen. Franken during the hotly contested Senate race in 2008? The 2008 Minnesota senate campaign had some pretty vicious campaign ads on behalf of Norm Coleman. But Norm Coleman had the backing of the RNC and the help of Karl Rove, plus plenty of PAC money - and the GOP was determined to keep that Senate seat (which Coleman had in the first place only because a plane crash killed Paul Wellstone in 2002). The anti-Franken ads were mostly about his career as a comedian and his raunchy jokes. They turned over every rock they could find; they went back years to find the worst examples, even though Franken had already admitted he'd written and delivered some pretty x-rated stuff over the years. But even with the aid of Karl Rove and unlimited GOP PAC money, for some reason the Coleman campaign never found out about the Tweeden incident - or, for that matter, of any other instance where anyone claimed to have been groped, fondled or otherwise harassed by Franken. This suggests to me that there weren't any such incidents, which might be why Franken himself asked for an ethics investigation. I'll note that though Franke has apologized for the picture (which he freely admits was in bad taste), he denied the kissing allegation (though he phrased it politely). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 23 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Yeah, I copped to that in the political thread. I suppose I should've done so over here as well. I admire the guy, both as a comedian and a politician. I will be the first to admit that it's likely impossible for me to be wholly objective here. That's a fair observation. Frankly, I like Franken too. It's hard for me not to like a guy that writes derogatory books about Rush Limbaugh. But, the allegations against him seem to be on the money. And, I think it would be best for him to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, Warlock of Quarth said: The 2008 Minnesota senate campaign had some pretty vicious campaign ads on behalf of Norm Coleman. But Norm Coleman had the backing of the RNC and the help of Karl Rove, plus plenty of PAC money - and the GOP was determined to keep that Senate seat (which Coleman had in the first place only because a plane crash killed Paul Wellstone in 2002). The anti-Franken ads were mostly about his career as a comedian and his raunchy jokes. They turned over every rock they could find; they went back years to find the worst examples, even though Franken had already admitted he'd written and delivered some pretty x-rated stuff over the years. But even with the aid of Karl Rove and unlimited GOP PAC money, for some reason the Coleman campaign never found out about the Tweeden incident - or, for that matter, of any other instance where anyone claimed to have been groped, fondled or otherwise harassed by Franken. This suggests to me that there weren't any such incidents, which might be why Franken himself asked for an ethics investigation. I'll note that though Franke has apologized for the picture (which he freely admits was in bad taste), he denied the kissing allegation (though he phrased it politely). You didn’t answer my question... if Ms. Tweeden’s allegations are politically motivated, why did she wait to drop them now instead of into the maelstrom of the 2008 campaign where they, given the margin Sen. Franken won by, could have swung the outcome. Why wait? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 27 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: WoQ, I ask you if Leann Tweeden was politically motivated why didn’t she reveal the photo and allegations during the Senate race Sen. Franken won by only 200 votes? It seems odd that she would wait until now if she is trying to bring down Franken when she could, potentially, have kept him from getting into office in the first place. Because 2008 is different than 2017, and we have been over that. And it doesn't explain the second account at all. Nor does it explain the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Warlock of Qarth Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: You didn’t answer my question... if Ms. Tweeden’s allegations are politically motivated, why did she wait to drop them now instead of into the maelstrom of the 2008 campaign where they, given the margin Sen. Franken won by, could have swung the outcome. Why wait? A good question, and one that is impossible to answer. Of course I could argue from a 'Franken is innocent' perspective. If the forced kiss story is exaggerated or made up, I could simply say that they hadn't made up the forced kiss story yet in 2008. And of course you could argue from a 'Franken is guilty' perspective, saying she didn't feel safe to come forward in 2008, but does now. What was Tweeden's job in 2008? Was she already a political commentator at that time or was she still an entertainer/model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Also, murderers should totally go with pointing out all the people in their lives that they didn't murder, because apparently if you're a murderer that's all you do all the time. Just like harassers and gropers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 29 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: WoQ, I ask you if Leann Tweeden was politically motivated why didn’t she reveal the photo and allegations during the Senate race Sen. Franken won by only 200 votes? It seems odd that she would wait until now if she is trying to bring down Franken when she could, potentially, have kept him from getting into office in the first place. Who can say? She wasn't approached at that time? The photo was sat on for awhile by the appropriate actors? The timing seems awfully convenient for this to not be politically motivated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Because 2008 is different than 2017, and we have been over that. And it doesn't explain the second account at all. Nor does it explain the picture. And THIS as well. This whole series of events beginning with Weinstein is rather unprecedented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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