Genetic coding- 100% real world or fantasy for literature?

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Your logic: Black is dominant Blonde is Recessive.

 

1.Andals with black hair come to Westeros in small numbers. Black hair is dominant like B blood type. So despite being a new arrival, it clings, though not in great numbers.

 

2.Andals with blonde hair come to westeros in small numbers. blonde is recessive. Not only blonde hair manages to cling despite being a recessive one, but it is mostly lost in Andals, the traitbearers and somehow manages to spread like wildfire among the First Men populace; Less andalized a region, more blondes there are! We see the most amount of Blondes in those of First Men descent, especially in areas  isolated from Andals such as beyond the Wall.

 

Which makes more sense?

Certain tribe arrived to certain land, and people in this tribe have certain genetic traits.

In land, to which they arrived, there is already living another tribe. And this First tribe has genetic traits, that are opposite of what is characteristic for members of Second tribe.

First tribe is more numerous than Second tribe.

So it doesn't matter which tribe's characteristic genetic traits are recessive, and which tribe's genetical traits are dominant. Because First tribe is more numerous, so eventually they will nearly entirely remove from their "1+2 gene pool" genetic traits characteristic for Second tribe.

Examples:

1) First tribe - Targaryens. Second tribe - non-Targaryens: Jocelyn Baratheon, Mariah Martell, Dyanna Dayne, Betha Blackwood.

2) First tribe - Baratheons. Second tribe - non-Baratheons: Alyssa Velarion, Tya Lannister, Rhaelle Targaryen.

3) First tribe - First Men. Second tribe - Andals.

1) Doesn't matter that Targaryens' hair color was recessive, while non-Targaryens' hair color (such as black hair of Mariah and Betha) was dominant, because in gene pool of their children/grandchildren/etc were more Targaryen genes, than non-Targaryen genes. Thus as result nearly all offsprings had genetic traits of Targaryens.

2) Doesn't matter that Baratheons' dark hair is more dominant, what matters is that in genetic pool of their offsprings there was more Baratheon genes, than non-Baratheon genes. Because as it's obvious from first example - even if majority of genes in genetic pool are recessive, while minority is dominant, majority still will prevail over minority, even if that minority are a dominant genetic traits.

3) First Men were majority. Andals were minority. Majority of their offsprings, modern day inhabitants of Westeros, are not-blond. Based on two examples from above = First Men were not-blond. They had hair color same as majority of modern day inhabitants of Westeros, and that's 2/3 brown and black, 1/3 red. And insignificant amount of blonds, currently present in Westeros, got their hair color from Andals.

The only region of Westeros, where blond hair is more common genetic trait than not-blond, is Westerlands. But not all Westerlanders - just Lannisters, that are descendants of Andal Lann the Clever, Andal Joffrey Lydden, and numerous marriages of Westerlanders with Andals. Thus - blond hair is genetic trait of Andals.

Quote

Not only blonde hair manages to cling despite being a recessive one, but it is mostly lost in Andals, the traitbearers and somehow manages to spread like wildfire among the First Men populace; Less andalized a region, more blondes there are!

Really? Spread like wildfire?

Quote

Black hair: Jon's "wards", Brogg, Borroq, Willow

Brown hair: Mance, Osha, Jon's "wards", Rattleshirt, Dryn, Squirrel.

Dark hair (doesn't say brown or black); Jarl, Gilly, Rattleshirt (later confirmed brown)

Red-Brown hair: Rowan

Blonde hair: Val, Jon's "wards", Grigg the Goat, Holly, Weeper

Red hair: Ygritte and the weak boy from another village, Jon's "wards", boy in Moletown, Gerrick Redbeard's family (father, 3 daughters, 1 son)

We have beyond The Wall: 20 people with not-blond hair, and 4 people with blond hair.

17% of blonds is not "wildfire". 83% are not blond.

In The North, on this side of The Wall we have: 13 people with not-blond hair, and 2 people with blond hair.

13% of blonds. 87% are not-blond.

In Stormlands: 23 people with not-blond hair, and 2 people with blond.

8% of blonds. 92% are not blond.

In those three regions we have 64 people, out of them 8 are blond, and 56 are not-blond. 12,5% are blond, and 87,5% are not-blond.

First Men were majority, and Andals were minority, so whatever genetic traits those two races had in the beginning, eventually First Men's traits prevailed. 87,5 is > than 12,5, so it's obvious which of those are prevailing. 

If you're still arguing even against this OBVIOUS and indisputable evidence, then there's really no point for us to continue this conversation.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

If you're still arguing even against this OBVIOUS and indisputable evidence, then there's really no point for us to continue this conversation.

 

How funny. You have forgot to quote this part of my post, but here it is anyway.

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not only you are failing to provide any textual evidence, but you are also contradicting yourself time and again.

Also reply to my Ockham's razor post, which also had backfire effect please! Until such time that you reply to that post, and bring any evidence forward, I'll stop replying to this thread in the hopes that it would perhaps die.

There's some improvement, so I'll answer with a post but still not much improvement. Also strange math you have going on there. Let me try that out.

23 people beyond the Wall, 3 of them black haired, 20 people with non-black hair. %13 are black haired, %87 are not black. WOW! AN EVEN LOWER PERCENTAGE THAN BLONDES! By your logic, black is the Andal introduced trait.

Thank you for once again allowing me to prove to you that Andals are black haired, using your logic.

 

Also how funny that it doesn't strike you as odd that Wildlings even more isolated than First Men have more blondes.

 

Backfire Effect.

 

[Megorova]

Textual evidence in Spoiler.

1. GRRM based First Men on Celts, and Andals on Anglo-Saxons.

In his story First Men came to Westeros and settled there. After them came Andals.

2. In real world pure Anglo-Saxons had blond hair, light-colored eyes, and fair skin.

3. In real world Celts weren't first settlers in Britain.

When they came there, there already lived people of other race, they had dark eyes, black hair, brown complexion. Original Celts were blond Aryan race. They mixed with that darker race, and their offsprings had blond, brown, black, red, or yellow hair. So when blond Anglo-Saxons came to Britain, those lands were populated by mixes.

Blond Anglo-Saxons mixed with those mixes, as result majority of Britain's population had dark hair. 4. Blond hair had 26,1%, not-blond hair had 73,8%.

Survey from 1901 year - 26,1% blond, 5,3% red, 42,1% medium (shades of brown from pale brown), 25,2% dark brown, 1,2% black.

In ASOIAF, prior First Men, there was no other race with whom they mixed, when they came to Westeros. They were THE first human race. So they themselves was that first pre-Celtic race, that in real world inhabited Britain, prior Celts settled there.

In ASOIAF, instead of using same three-step model, as what happened in real world -

Spoiler

1 pre-Celts (dark hair, dark eyes)

+

2 Celts (blond hair, light eyes)

=

Celts2 (mixed coloring)

+

3 Anglo-Saxons (blond hair, light eyes)

=

Offsprings with mixed coloring.

GRRM used two-step model -

1 pre-Celts (dark hair, dark eyes)

+

2 Anglo-Saxons (blond hair, light eyes)

 

1 First Men (dark hair, dark eyes)

+

2 Andals (blond hair, light eyes).

Spoiler

 

1.

"Author George R.R. Martin has stated that the series was loosely inspired by the War of the Roses which occurred in Britain during the fifteenth century. The First Men loosely parallel the original Celtic inhabitants of Britain, while the Andals who later invaded and conquered Westeros are loosely parallel to the Anglo-Saxon invasions of Britain during the fifth and sixth centuries. Their name is also similar to the Vandals, barbarian tribes who were conquering parts of the Roman Empire at the same time as the Anglo-Saxons. The Anglo-Saxons divided up Britain into seven kingdoms, such as Mercia and Wessex, known as the "Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy". Similarly, the small kingdoms the Andals established in Westeros eventually aggregated over the centuries into "the Seven Kingdoms" such as the Westerlands, the Reach, etc. When the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain, there was some intermingling with the local Celtic population, but the overwhelming ethnic composition centuries later stemmed from the Anglo-Saxons. Similarly, the Andals intermingled with First Men they conquered: typically, the nobility tend to be predominantly from the invaders (Anglo-Saxon or Andal), while commoners descend largely from the conquered (First Men or Celts). This varies considerably from one kingdom to the next, i.e. the inhabitants of the Vale are of very pure Andal descent compared to other regions."

2.

http://www.online-literature.com/grant-allen/anglo-saxon-britain/7/

"We know that the pure Anglo-Saxons were a round-skulled, fair-haired, light-eyed, blonde-complexioned race; and we know that wherever (if anywhere) we find unmixed Germanic races at the present day, High Dutch, Low Dutch, or Scandinavian, we always meet with some of these same personal peculiarities in almost every individual of the community. But we also know that the Celts, originally themselves a similar blonde Aryan race, mixed largely in Britain with one or more long-skulled dark-haired, black-eyed, and brown-complexioned races, generally identified with the Basques or Euskarians, and with the Ligurians. The nation which resulted from this mixture showed traces of both types, being sometimes blonde, sometimes brunette; sometimes black-haired, sometimes red-haired, and sometimes yellow-haired. Individuals of all these types are still found in the undoubtedly Celtic portions of Britain, though the dark type there unquestionably preponderates so far as numbers are concerned. It is this mixed race of fair and dark people, of Aryan Celts with non-Aryan Euskarians or Ligurians, which we usually describe as Celtic in modern Britain, by contradistinction to the later wave of Teutonic English."

3.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Anglo-Saxon_Race/Chapter_7

"ONE of the facts concerning the colour of the hair and eyes of the people in different counties of England at the present time, brought to light by scientific observations, is that there is a higher percentage of people of a mixed brown type living in Hertfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Wiltshire, and Dorset, than in most other counties. Except those in Cornwall and on the old Celtic borders, the inhabitants of these counties are the darkest. This is usually explained on the supposition that in the process of the Saxon settlement at British population was allowed to remain in these parts of England, which in the course of centuries became mixed with the inhabitants of Anglo-Saxon descent, and consequently the present population is more marked than those of pure descent by brown, hazel, or black eyes, with brown (chestnut), dark-brown, or black hair. The counties of Hertford and Buckingham have people as dark as Wales. All investigation goes to show that this brunette outcrop is a reality. Beddoe found that the area in which there is a larger percentage of brown people in England extends from the river Lea to the Warwickshire Avon. In dealing with the circumstances of the settlement, these ethnological facts must receive consideration. The survival of a British population is a possible explanation, and the one which appears to be the most natural. As there are some difficulties in this conclusion, the question arises, Is there any other way in which the origin of these mixed brown people, surrounded by others of a somewhat fairer complexion, can be explained? An alternative explanation is that people of a darker race may have come with the Angles, Saxons, or Danes, and have settled largely in these parts of the country."

4.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?40683-British-Hair-Colour-and-Eye-Colour-Percentage

 

 

[Megorova]

On 24.12.2017 at 9:36 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

I put forward these

You object with

Actually you twisted everything that I wrote, and instead of writing, what I really objected with, you also added there some ridiculous bulshit that I didn't wrote.

 

Wildlings with negligible interaction have many blondes among them.

Wildlings having negligible interaction must have gotten the blonde hair from those negligible interactors who may or may not have blonde haired people among them.

 

It is known that there WERE blond people on The Wall.

"The Shieldhall was one of the older parts of Castle Black, a long drafty feast hall of dark stone, its oaken rafters black with the smoke of centuries. Back when the Night’s Watch had been much larger, its walls had been hung with rows of brightly colored wooden shields. Then as now, when a knight took the black, tradition decreed that he set aside his former arms and take up the plain black shield of the brotherhood. The shields thus discarded would hang in the Shieldhall.

Hundreds of knights meant hundreds of shields. Hawks and eagles, dragons and griffins, suns and stags, wolves and wyverns, manticores, bulls, trees and flowers, harps, spears, crabs and krakens, red lions and golden lions and chequy lions, owls, lambs, maids and mermen, stallions, stars, buckets and buckles, flayed men and hanged men and burning men, axes, longswords, turtles, unicorns, bears, quills, spiders and snakes and scorpions, and a hundred other heraldic charges had adorned the Shieldhall walls, blazoned in more colors than any rainbow ever dreamed of."

 

Dragons - Targaryens and their bastards.

Crabs - House Celtigar, Valyrians.

Golden Lions and Red Lions - Lannisters (various shades of blond hair and green eyes).

Axes - Byrch (Balman, blond hair).

Unicorns - Brax (Cerissa Brax married with Damon Lannister, both of their sons, Tybold and Gerold are golden-haired).

Eagles - Arryn (Jon and Harrold, blond hair and blue eyes), Mallister (Jason and Denys, brown hair, blue-grey eyes).

Hawk - House Fowler (Twins, yellow hair).

Spiders - Webber (Rohanne, strawberry-blond red hair and green eyes).

Lamb - Stokeworth (Falena mistress of Aegon IV, blond; her daughter, that also was mistress of Aegon IV, also was blond; Lolys has black hair).

Griffins - Connington (red hair).

Maids - Piper (Clement and Lewys, red hair).

Hanged Man - Trant (Meryn, red hair).

Tree - Marbrand (Addam, copper hair).

Stars - Templeton (Symond, blue eyes).

Scorpions - House Qorgyle. In war against Nymeria they fought against Rhoynars, and their Lord was sent to The Wall. Afterwards whoever was next Lord, intermarried with Rhoynars. Nowadays Qorgyles are Sandy Dornishmen, but prior that, they were pure blond Andals.

 

So we have 8 Houses with blond hair, 1 with strawberry-blond red, 1 with both blond and black, and 4 Houses with red hair.

So it's not just possible or just likely that there were blond-haired people on The Wall, it's a fact.

 

The rest 6 are also not what I actually wrote. So what's the point in discussing, what out of those options, yours or pseudo-mine are more incorrect? There's none.

[Corvo the Crow]

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Textual evidence in Spoiler.

1. GRRM based First Men on Celts, and Andals on Anglo-Saxons.

In his story First Men came to Westeros and settled there. After them came Andals.

2. In real world pure Anglo-Saxons had blond hair, light-colored eyes, and fair skin.

3. In real world Celts weren't first settlers in Britain.

When they came there, there already lived people of other race, they had dark eyes, black hair, brown complexion. Original Celts were blond Aryan race. They mixed with that darker race, and their offsprings had blond, brown, black, red, or yellow hair. So when blond Anglo-Saxons came to Britain, those lands were populated by mixes.

Blond Anglo-Saxons mixed with those mixes, as result majority of Britain's population had dark hair. 4. Blond hair had 26,1%, not-blond hair had 73,8%.

Survey from 1901 year - 26,1% blond, 5,3% red, 42,1% medium (shades of brown from pale brown), 25,2% dark brown, 1,2% black.

In ASOIAF, prior First Men, there was no other race with whom they mixed, when they came to Westeros. They were THE first human race. So they themselves was that first pre-Celtic race, that in real world inhabited Britain, prior Celts settled there.

In ASOIAF, instead of using same three-step model, as what happened in real world -

  Reveal hidden contents

1 pre-Celts (dark hair, dark eyes)

+

2 Celts (blond hair, light eyes)

=

Celts2 (mixed coloring)

+

3 Anglo-Saxons (blond hair, light eyes)

=

Offsprings with mixed coloring.

GRRM used two-step model -

1 pre-Celts (dark hair, dark eyes)

+

2 Anglo-Saxons (blond hair, light eyes)

 

1 First Men (dark hair, dark eyes)

+

2 Andals (blond hair, light eyes).

  Reveal hidden contents

 

1.

"Author George R.R. Martin has stated that the series was loosely inspired by the War of the Roses which occurred in Britain during the fifteenth century. The First Men loosely parallel the original Celtic inhabitants of Britain, while the Andals who later invaded and conquered Westeros are loosely parallel to the Anglo-Saxon invasions of Britain during the fifth and sixth centuries. Their name is also similar to the Vandals, barbarian tribes who were conquering parts of the Roman Empire at the same time as the Anglo-Saxons. The Anglo-Saxons divided up Britain into seven kingdoms, such as Mercia and Wessex, known as the "Anglo-Saxon Heptarchy". Similarly, the small kingdoms the Andals established in Westeros eventually aggregated over the centuries into "the Seven Kingdoms" such as the Westerlands, the Reach, etc. When the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain, there was some intermingling with the local Celtic population, but the overwhelming ethnic composition centuries later stemmed from the Anglo-Saxons. Similarly, the Andals intermingled with First Men they conquered: typically, the nobility tend to be predominantly from the invaders (Anglo-Saxon or Andal), while commoners descend largely from the conquered (First Men or Celts). This varies considerably from one kingdom to the next, i.e. the inhabitants of the Vale are of very pure Andal descent compared to other regions."

2.

http://www.online-literature.com/grant-allen/anglo-saxon-britain/7/

"We know that the pure Anglo-Saxons were a round-skulled, fair-haired, light-eyed, blonde-complexioned race; and we know that wherever (if anywhere) we find unmixed Germanic races at the present day, High Dutch, Low Dutch, or Scandinavian, we always meet with some of these same personal peculiarities in almost every individual of the community. But we also know that the Celts, originally themselves a similar blonde Aryan race, mixed largely in Britain with one or more long-skulled dark-haired, black-eyed, and brown-complexioned races, generally identified with the Basques or Euskarians, and with the Ligurians. The nation which resulted from this mixture showed traces of both types, being sometimes blonde, sometimes brunette; sometimes black-haired, sometimes red-haired, and sometimes yellow-haired. Individuals of all these types are still found in the undoubtedly Celtic portions of Britain, though the dark type there unquestionably preponderates so far as numbers are concerned. It is this mixed race of fair and dark people, of Aryan Celts with non-Aryan Euskarians or Ligurians, which we usually describe as Celtic in modern Britain, by contradistinction to the later wave of Teutonic English."

3.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Anglo-Saxon_Race/Chapter_7

"ONE of the facts concerning the colour of the hair and eyes of the people in different counties of England at the present time, brought to light by scientific observations, is that there is a higher percentage of people of a mixed brown type living in Hertfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Wiltshire, and Dorset, than in most other counties. Except those in Cornwall and on the old Celtic borders, the inhabitants of these counties are the darkest. This is usually explained on the supposition that in the process of the Saxon settlement at British population was allowed to remain in these parts of England, which in the course of centuries became mixed with the inhabitants of Anglo-Saxon descent, and consequently the present population is more marked than those of pure descent by brown, hazel, or black eyes, with brown (chestnut), dark-brown, or black hair. The counties of Hertford and Buckingham have people as dark as Wales. All investigation goes to show that this brunette outcrop is a reality. Beddoe found that the area in which there is a larger percentage of brown people in England extends from the river Lea to the Warwickshire Avon. In dealing with the circumstances of the settlement, these ethnological facts must receive consideration. The survival of a British population is a possible explanation, and the one which appears to be the most natural. As there are some difficulties in this conclusion, the question arises, Is there any other way in which the origin of these mixed brown people, surrounded by others of a somewhat fairer complexion, can be explained? An alternative explanation is that people of a darker race may have come with the Angles, Saxons, or Danes, and have settled largely in these parts of the country."

4.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?40683-British-Hair-Colour-and-Eye-Colour-Percentage

 

 

Nice, informative post. Except for the fact loosely based means exactly that, loosely based.

Dothraki have black eyes with almond shapes, black hair and copper skin.

Quote

The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures... Mongols and Huns, certainly, but also Alans, Sioux, Cheyenne, and various other Amerindian tribes... seasoned with a dash of pure fantasy. So any resemblance to Arabs or Turks is coincidental. Well, except to the extent that the Turks were also originally horsemen of the steppes, not unlike the Alans, Huns, and the rest.

They obviously got their hair and eye from the steppe nomads. Skin tone seems to come from native Americans. Native Americans who didn't have horses until Americas were discovered by Europeans, so a few hundred years of horse ride culture for them at best.

 

Also from the same SSM, there's this

Quote

In general, though, while I do draw inspiration from history, I try to avoid direct one-for-one transplants, whether of individuals or of entire cultures. Just as it not correct to say that Robert was Henry VIII or Edward IV, it would not be correct to say that the Dothraki are Mongols.

SSM on Dothraki

When I said textual evidence I meant indisputable( not something like Andals brought stonemasonry when there's the Fist of the First Men) in universe textual evidence or perhaps direct statements from Martin

 

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

It is known that there WERE blond people on The Wall.

There were very few people on the wall to begin with who may or may not have been rangers who may or may not have had relations with Wildlings, which may or may not have resulted in pregnancy, which may or may not have been resulted with a live baby(abortions, stillborns...), who may or may not have lived past infancy. If (s)he lived past infancy then (s)he may or may not have survived long enough to be able to produce offsprings and it goes on and on. Unless the watch had another order which specialized in Wildling Andalizing in older times, then good luck spreading those Aryan Andal genes.

 

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Hundreds of knights meant hundreds of shields.

Again, contradicting yourself and also nitpicking characters and also going on assumptions based on assumptions

To point out a few

Contradicting:

You are saying that Stormlanders are mostly First Men. Conningtons and Dondarrions, Houses of First Men origin with Red and Red-gold hair, is given as a possible source of the redhead wildlings which supposedly got their reds from Andal mixes.

Nitpicking, contradicting

Meryn Trant. Again a Stormlander, so most likely First Men. We don't know if Trants are redhaired

 

Nitpicking

Harrold Arryn is the only blonde we know of. His ancestors were First Men as well as Andals.

 

Nitpicking and assumption

Pipers, for example are never established as a house with retaining red hair, and neither are we told whether they are First Men origin or Andal origin. You are assuming their traits are established and comes from Andals.

Assumption based on Assumption:

You are assuming Qorgyles are/were blondes based on the assumption Andals are blondes.

 

And finally, crown goes to Symond Templeton a combination of Nitpicking, Assumption and Contradicting all together!

 

Symond has cold blue eyes, a large beak nose, and a black and pointed beard.

Nitpicked for his cold blue eyes. Could cold blue eyes mean icy eyes? Like Roose's grey eyes?

Assumed all Templetons have this cold blue eyes trait and it comes from Andals.

Contradicting your blonde-blue eyed Andals with his black beard, which you forgot to add about and perhaps also his eyes, which may be first men grey.

[Megorova]

11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Symond has cold blue eyes, a large beak nose, and a black and pointed beard.

Nitpicked for his cold blue eyes. Could cold blue eyes mean icy eyes? Like Roose's grey eyes?

Assumed all Templetons have this cold blue eyes trait and it comes from Andals.

Contradicting your blonde-blue eyed Andals with his black beard, which you forgot to add about and perhaps also his eyes, which may be first men grey.

I wrote about Symond, because he had blue eyes. It's to point out that even among dark-haired people on The Wall, there were people with blue eyes. So even dark-haired Watchers could have passed blue eyes to their wildling offsprings.

11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

There were very few people on the wall to begin with who may or may not have been rangers who may or may not have had relations with Wildlings, which may or may not have resulted in pregnancy, which may or may not have been resulted with a live baby(abortions, stillborns...), who may or may not have lived past infancy. If (s)he lived past infancy then (s)he may or may not have survived long enough to be able to produce offsprings and it goes on and on. Unless the watch had another order which specialized in Wildling Andalizing in older times, then good luck spreading those Aryan Andal genes.

You're really funny. There's no need to have any sort of relations with Wildlings, to fuck their women.

Did all of those Watchers, that killed Mormont and Craster, and raped Craster's wifes, had prior relations with Wildlings? Did all of them were Rangers? Samwell and Jon also were there, beyond The Wall, even though Jon was Steward, and Sam was whatever he was.

Also we do know that Watchers had sex with whores from Mole's Town, and that they also had sex, and subsequently had children, with wildling women that lived on that side of The Wall.

Mance is son of Watcher.

Mance himself is a Watcher, and he had a son with a wildling woman.

There was another wildling, whose father was a Watcher. His mother came to The Wall to show a child to his father, but other Watchers chased her away. Don't remember who it was, though it definitely was a man.

So there are three children of Watchers and Wildling women, and those are only that are known. Though do you think that Watcher, that impregnated some wildling woman, will be advertising it? Unlikely. If he doesn't want to be hanged, he will keep quiet about it. So there's who knows how many of children beyond The Wall, whose fathers are actually Brothers of Night's Watch.

The point is - Night's Watch is NOT celibate. Prove:

Quote

Half the men at Castle Black visited Mole’s Town from time to time to dig for buried treasures in the brothel, Jon knew, but he would not dishonor Ygritte by equating her with the Mole’s Town whores.

Quote

Iron Emmett rode at the head of the column, mounted on the ugliest horse Jon had ever seen, a shaggy beast that looked to be all hair and hooves. “Talk is there was some trouble at Harlot’s Tower last night,” the master-at-arms said.

“Hardin’s Tower.” Of the sixty-three who had come back with him from Mole’s Town, nineteen had been women and girls. Jon had housed them in the same abandoned tower where he had once slept when he had been new to the Wall. Twelve were spearwives, more than capable of defending both themselves and the younger girls from the unwanted attentions of black brothers. It was some of the men they’d turned away who’d given Hardin’s Tower its new, inflammatory name. Jon was not about to condone the mockery. “Three drunken fools mistook Hardin’s for a brothel, that’s all. They are in the ice cells now, contemplating their mistake.”

Iron Emmett grimaced. “Men are men, vows are words, and words are wind. You should put guards around the women.”

“And who will guard the guards?”

Unlike Jon, many of other Watchers, use any opportunity to have sex.

Also look at the bigger picture.

 

"Lord Commander Jon Snow sends Cotter Pyke with eleven ships from Eastwatch-by-the-Sea to bring the wildlings south from Hardhome. Many ships are wrecked by storms during the voyage. When Cotter arrives at Hardhome with six ships left, the situation has grown very bad. Wildlings are eating their own dead and there are presumably wights in the forest and in the sea. Slavers have already taken some of the wildlings to Braavos"

"In Braavos, Arya Stark tells the Kindly Man that she knows why the Sealord seized the Goodheart and that the slaves on the ship are wildlings from Hardhome"

Quote

And later three Lyseni, sailors off the Goodheart, a storm-wracked galley that had limped into Braavos last night and been seized this morning by the Sealord’s guards.

The Lyseni took the table nearest to the fire and spoke quietly over cups of black tar rum, keeping their voices low so no one could overhear. But she was no one and she heard most every word. And for a time it seemed that she could see them too, through the slitted yellow eyes of the tomcat purring in her lap. One was old and one was young and one had lost an ear, but all three had the white-blond hair and smooth fair skin of Lys, where the blood of the old Freehold still ran strong.

The next morning, when the kindly man asked her what three things she knew that she had not known before, she was ready.

“I know why the Sealord seized the Goodheart. She was carrying slaves. Hundreds of slaves, women and children, roped together in her hold.” Braavos had been founded by escaped slaves, and the slave trade was forbidden here.

“I know where the slaves came from. They were wildlings from Westeros, from a place called Hardhome. An old ruined place, accursed.” Old Nan had told her tales of Hardhome, back at Winterfell when she had still been Arya Stark. “After the big battle where the King-Beyond-the-Wall was killed, the wildlings ran away, and this woods witch said that if they went to Hardhome, ships would come and carry them away to someplace warm. But no ships came, except these two Lyseni pirates, Goodheart and Elephant, that had been driven north by a storm. They dropped anchor off Hardhome to make repairs, and saw the wildlings, but there were thousands and they didn’t have room for all of them, so they said they’d just take the women and the children. The wildlings had nothing to eat, so the men sent out their wives and daughters, but as soon as the ships were out to sea, the Lyseni drove them below and roped them up. They meant to sell them all in Lys. Only then they ran into another storm and the ships were parted. The Goodheart was so damaged her captain had no choice but to put in here, but the Elephant may have made it back to Lys. The Lyseni at Pynto’s think that she’ll return with more ships. The price of slaves is rising, they said, and there are thousands more women and children at Hardhome.

You think that it was first time that Lyseni, or other people from Essos, or even Iron Islands, enslaved wildlings or had a contact with them?

"Hardhome was close to becoming the only true town north of the Wall. Before its destruction, Maester Wyllis journeyed to Hardhome aboard a Pentoshi trader and established himself as a healer and counselor under the protection of Gorm the Wolf, one of the four chieftains who controlled the settlement, so that he may write of the local customs.

One night, 600 years ago (about 300 years before Aegon's Landing), Hardhome was destroyed.^[2] Something terrible happened that night; the details are uncertain. Its people are said to have been carried off into slavery by slavers from across the Narrow Sea or slaughtered for meat by cannibals out of Skagos, depending on the tale one chooses believe.

Traders and a ship sent by the Night's Watch to investigate reported only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood"

Quote

As they passed, each warrior stripped off his treasures and tossed them into one of the carts that the stewards had placed before the gate. Amber pendants, golden torques, jeweled daggers, silver brooches set with gem-stones, bracelets, rings, niello cups and golden goblets, warhorns and drinking horns, a green jade comb, a necklace of freshwater pearls … all yielded up and noted down by Bowen Marsh. One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt.

You think they stole all of it from Northeners? Do you really think that the land beyond The Wall was never visited by people of other races? Do you think that traders from Essos, never visited Wildlings to buy from them furs or amber?

 

I think that Wildlings mixed their genes with outsiders, more often than Northeners, that mostly married with other Northeners, and majority of Northeners have a lot of First Men blood. Because they weren't conquered by Andals, and they didn't mixed much with Andals thru marriages, because they mostly married with other Northeners.

Let's take Starks for example. In the last 300 years they married only with members from other First Men Houses. Ancestors of Eddard Stark, paternal and maternal line:

Torrhen Stark = son of Torrhen Stark = Ellard Stark = Benjen Stark

Benjen Stark + Lysa Locke (northeners, were kings of First Men after Long Night) = Rickon Stark

Rickon Stark + Gilliane Glover (northeners, were kings of First Men after Long Night) = Cregan Stark

Cregan Stark + Lynara Stark = Brandon Stark

Brandon Stark + Alys Karstark (branch of House Stark, that separated from them around 700 BC) = Beron Stark

Beron Stark + Lorra Royce (Vale, First Men House, but probably intermarried with Andal Arryns) = Willam and Rodrick

Willam Stark + Melantha Blackwood (riverlanders, didn't intermarried with Andals, though did intermarried with Brakens that intermarried with Andals) = Edwyle Stark

Rodrick Stark + Arya Flint (northeners, were kings of First Men after Long Night) = Lyarra Stark

Edwyle Stark + Marna Locke (northeners, were kings of First Men after Long Night) = Rickard Stark

Rickard Stark + Lyarra Stark (Rickard's cousin) = Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna, Benjen

Among Eddard's ancestors there was 16 northeners, 1 person from Riverlands, and 1 from The Vale. And those 2 that were not Northeners, also were from First Men Houses. Even if those 2 were partially Andals, there are still 16 pure-blooded First Men Northeners among Eddard's ancestors. So Stark's are 16/18 First Men and maybe 2/18 Andals.

Wildlings are much less picky with whom they breed, and don't bother much with marriages. So among them could be more offsprings of mixed origin, than among Northeners.

Quote

“Do you mislike the girl?” Tormund asked him as they passed another twenty mammoths, these bearing wildlings in tall wooden towers instead of giants.

“No, but I…” What can I say that he will believe? “I am still too young to wed.”

“Wed?” Tormund laughed. “Who spoke of wedding? In the south, must a man wed every girl he beds?”

Jon could feel himself turning red again. “She spoke for me when Rattleshirt would have killed me. I would not dishonor her.”

“You are a free man now, and Ygritte is a free woman. What dishonor if you lay together?”

“I might get her with child.”

“Aye, I’d hope so. A strong son or a lively laughing girl kissed by fire, and where’s the harm in that?”

Words failed him for a moment. “The boy… the child would be a bastard.”

“Are bastards weaker than other children? More sickly, more like to fail?”

“No, but—”

“You’re bastard-born yourself. And if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o’ moon tea. You do not come into it, once the seed is planted.”

“I will not father a bastard.”

So - slavers from Lys, pirates from Summer Isles, traders from Pentos, travelers from Braavos, Watchers that came to The Wall from all over Westeros, even a few Valyrians - this is who added their genes in genetic pool beyond The Wall.

What is more likely - that freefolk are willing to add fresh blood in their genetic pool, or that they are racists and against mixing in foreign blood for their future offsprings?

11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

You are saying that Stormlanders are mostly First Men. Conningtons and Dondarrions, Houses of First Men origin with Red and Red-gold hair, is given as a possible source of the redhead wildlings which supposedly got their reds from Andal mixes.

I already said that I agree that red hair is genetic trait of First Men. They got it from mixing with Ghiscari, prior they went to Westeros.

And I'm not saying, that any wildling that has not black/brown hair, and not black/brown/grey eyes is a descendants of Andals. I'm saying that for wildlings, that have light hair and light eyes, or those that are darker than First Men, their ancestors could be anyone, not only Andals or First Men. Anyone. Even half-Rhoynars. Because Martells also were sent to serve at The Wall, and I doubt that they were celibate.

[Corvo the Crow]

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

You're really funny. There's no need to have any sort of relations with Wildlings, to fuck their women.

Did all of those Watchers, that killed Mormont and Craster, and raped Craster's wifes, had prior relations with Wildlings? Did all of them were Rangers? Samwell and Jon also were there, beyond The Wall, even though Jon was Steward, and Sam was whatever he was.

Also we do know that Watchers had sex with whores from Mole's Town, and that they also had sex, and subsequently had children, with wildling women that lived on that side of The Wall.

Yes there is. If you can't go beyond the Wall then you have no wildling women to fuck. If you aren't a ranger, you can't go beyond a Wall.

One time event, biggest ranging in living history and even then of the 200 Men from Castle Black, 150 were rangers.

Mole's Town is not beyond the Wall.

If you aren't a ranger, you don't get to see wildlings. Even then you may not see them.

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

The point is - Night's Watch is NOT celibate. Prove:

This was never the issue. "Buried treasures " are one thing, wildling women are another completely different one.

Quote

"You bloody crows." Tormund's tone was gruff, yet strangely gentle. "That Longspear stole me daughter. Munda, me little autumn apple. Took her right out o' my tent with all four o' her brothers about. Toregg slept through it, the great lout, and Torwynd . . . well, Torwynd the Tame, that says all that needs saying, don't it? The young ones gave the lad a fight, though."

"And Munda?" asked Jon.

"She's my own blood," said Tormund proudly. "She broke his lip for him and bit one ear half off, and I hear he's got so many scratches on his back he can't wear a cloak. She likes him well enough, though. And why not? He don't fight with no spear, you know. Never has. So where do you think he got that name? Har!"

This is the wildling way. There may be some exceptions but Ygritte tells us the same too. Add to that that "crows" are  at best generally disliked by wildlings, with some hating them outright.

 

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

You think that it was first time that Lyseni, or other people from Essos, or even Iron Islands, enslaved wildlings or had a contact with them?

Slavers don't add anything new to the population, they remove people from the population. Those taken to slave could be used as bed slaves and give birth to non First-Men children but it doesn't matter because they are no longer a part of the Wildling population. Unless you suggest slavers trade these now not so First-Men children in the Wildling ways and leave them off Beyond the Wall to introduce new genes to Wildling population.

 

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

Wildlings are much less picky with whom they breed, and don't bother much with marriages. So among them could be more offsprings of mixed origin, than among Northeners.

They may be less picky but there is less to pick too and much less chances of picking those.

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

What is more likely - that freefolk are willing to add fresh blood in their genetic pool, or that they are racists and against mixing in foreign blood for their future offsprings?

This is irrelevant simply because of having not enough oppurtunities.

 

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

I already said that I agree that red hair is genetic trait of First Men. They got it from mixing with Ghiscari, prior they went to Westeros.

Problem with this is Ghiscari had red-black hair, not red. Also check your map and tell me which one is more on path of the First Men? Slaver's Bay or Valyrian Peninsula? Both regions are located around the same latitudes. When I suggested First Men went to Valyrian Peninsula to become ancestors of Valyrian people or add some of them among their ranks, you disagreed. But now you suggest they took to long route to get some Ghiscari genes and then returned the same way?

[Lady Dacey]

@Corvo the Crow I admire your persistence. You're discussing with an unreasonable person... no amount of arguing will convince this one she's got it wrong.

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Problem with this is Ghiscari had red-black hair, not red. Also check your map and tell me which one is more on path of the First Men? Slaver's Bay or Valyrian Peninsula? Both regions are located around the same latitudes. When I suggested First Men went to Valyrian Peninsula to become ancestors of Valyrian people or add some of them among their ranks, you disagreed. But now you suggest they took to long route to get some Ghiscari genes and then returned the same way?

I didn't suggested nothing like that. You're as always twisting my words, and adding some nonsense to them. Nonsense that you yourself imagined.

First Men didn't went anywhere to get some Ghiscari genes. They got them from where they lived. From southern parts of Dothraki Sea, where were located 3 of Ghiscari colonial cities.

1.

"The Old Empire of Ghis^[1][2] was one of the oldest known nations and cultures in the world. It reigned supreme over much of Essos. Its founding and golden age predate that of its successor, the Valyrian Freehold, by thousands of years."

2.

"During the Century of Blood after the Doom of Valyria, the Dothraki destroyed northern Ghiscari colonies, whose ruins are now called Krazaaj Has, Vaes Mejhah, and Vaes Efe.^[6]"

3.

"Some maesters believe that the First Men originated in the grasslands of Essos -- in the lands now known as the Dothraki Sea -- before beginning their long westward migration to Westeros.^[43] "

4.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dothraki_sea

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Vaes_Mejhah

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Krazaaj_Has

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Vaes_Efe

 

Now look at the maps there - all three of those Ghiscari cities were located on territory of Dothraki sea. Ghiscari empire was the oldest nation in the world. So when First Men were still in Essos, lived in the Dothraki Sea, they did crossed their path with Ghiscari. Three of Ghiscari cities were located in the land where First Men lived.

First Men were dark-haired. Ghiscari had red-black hair. So after mixing of those two races, their offsprings had dark hair, and red-black hair, and black hair, and red hair.

3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

@Corvo the Crow I admire your persistence. Your discussing with an unreasonable person... no amount of arguing will convince this one she's got it wrong.

There's more evidences that prove, that Andals were blond and First Men were dark-haired and red-haired, than the opposite, or some other option.

"When there was war, the Valyrians took thousands of slaves, and when there was peace they bred them.^[3] As the power of the Freehold grew, so did its hunger for ore, and the dragonlords led many conquests to keep the mines full with slaves."

1. First Men were proto-Dothraki. They were dark-haired, and dark-eyed. First Men were mixing their genes with Ghiscari, from whom they got red hair. And Andals were blond, because they got light coloring from Valyrians.

First Men/Andals left Essos because they were running from Ghiscari/Valyrians.

2. GRRM based First Men on Celts, and Andals on Anglo-Saxons. Celts were dark-haired and dark-eyed, while Anglo-Saxons were light-haired and light-eyed.

[Corvo the Crow]

@Lady Dacey Thanks! Stubbornness is such a long running trait on one side of my family (4 generations at the least with just a single member as exception) I suspect it may even be genetically related. 

4 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Now look at the maps there - all three of those Ghiskari cities were located on territory of Dothraki sea. Ghiskari empire was the oldest nation in the world. So when First Men were still in Essos, lived in the Dothraki Sea, they did crossed their path with Ghiscari. Three of Ghiskari cities were located in the land where First Men lived.

Edge of Dothraki Sea. And how long do you suggest that Ghiscari empire lasted?

 

Also since you are insistent on Ghiscari with Red-Black hair somehow passing Red hair to First Men;

As I've mentioned earlier, I am studying medicine, this year we mostly learn pathology, during the very first classes one small thing we've been thaught is this; damaged black hair gets reddish. Can't exactly remember if it was sun damage or chemical damage or something entirely different, but it's there. You can search the internet for it. I have a black cat who likes laying under the sun and she usually lays on one side. After spending an entire summer under the sun, one side of her becomes red-black.

 

Also it seems you have finally agreed with me on dark hair being brown, but just to establish it more firmly, here's another proof.

 

Quote

 

"He's not like the others," Jon said. "He never makes a sound. That's why I named him Ghost. That, and because he's white. The others are all dark, grey or black."

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

 

 

[Megorova]

26 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also it seems you have finally agreed with me on dark hair being brown, but just to establish it more firmly, here's another proof.

No, we don't agree.

Dark hair is dark hair, i.e. - black, or brown, or even grey. Copper is also dark. Auburn is also dark. Dark could be even midnight blue or green - colors in which some Tyroshi die their hair. Dark is everything that is not light, i.e. not blond, golden, yellow, silver, white.

28 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And how long do you suggest that Ghiscari empire lasted?

I don't suggest. Facts:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Old_Empire_of_Ghis

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ghiscari

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Timeline_of_major_events

"The Old Empire of Ghis^[1][2] was one of the oldest known nations and cultures in the world. It reigned supreme over much of Essos. Its founding and golden age predate that of its successor, the Valyrian Freehold, by thousands of years."

"Dawn Age

ca.-12,000

The First Men invade Westeros: A human ethnic group from Essos, the First Men, invades Westeros by crossing the Arm of Dorne

Age of Valyria

Between 8000 BC - 4700 BC

Rise of the Valyrian Freehold: While Westeros was recovering from the Long Night, in Essos, the peaceful sheep-herding folk of the Valyrian peninsula find dragons lairing in the Fourteen Flames, an immense chain of volcanoes extending across the neck of the peninsula. The Valyrians tame the dragons with magic, which gives them the means to gain influence over the area. The Valyrian Freehold is established. In its capital, Valyria, magic flourishes, topless towers rise toward the heavens where dragons soar, stone sphinxes gaze down through eyes of garnet, and smiths forge swords of legendary strength and sharpness.

Ghiscari wars: Five wars are fought between the Old Empire of Ghis, the greatest empire on the eastern continent, and the Freehold — wars which Valyria wins with the help of its dragons.

The Valyrians practice slavery learned from the Ghiscari.

~4700 BC

Fifth Ghiscari War: The Ghiscari wars end with the fifth war in which Old Ghis is utterly destroyed by the Freehold, as to ensure there would not be a sixth war. The Valyrians destroy the city's walls and streets with dragonflame, and salt and sulfur the fields. With the Ghiscari empire shattered, the Valyrian Freehold expands its influence over the surviving Slaver Cities of Slaver's Bay.^[11][12][13]

Following the defeat of the Old Empire of Ghis, the Freehold seeks to expand their territories. The Andals, who had been living in Andalos, traveled west to flee the upcoming Valyrians and prevent slavery. They first landed in the Fingers in the Vale of Arryn. From there, they spread all across Westeros.^[10]"

 

"The Old Empire of Ghis was one of the oldest known nations and cultures in the world."

So they existed before, during, and after First Men lived in Essos. First Men left Essos 12,000 years ago. Rise of Valyria began 8,000 year ago. Approximately 4,700 years ago, Valyrians defeated Ghiscari in last (Fifth) out of wars between them. Andals left Essos 6,000 or 4,000 or 2,000 years ago.

Though it's not likely that Andals crossed their path with Ghiscari, because the Axe and Andalos were way above area influenced by Ghiscari. Ghiscari were extending their Empire from South of Essos to North, but by the time they were defeated by Valyrians, they went only as far up, as lower part of Dothraki Sea, while lands of Andals were much higher than that, and more to the west of both the Dothraki Sea and Ghis. So unlike Valyrians, that used dragons for traveling long distances, Ghiscari were extending their lands and influence by much slower pace.

When Valyrians defeated Ghiscari, they switched their attention to lands that were not yet conquered by Ghiscari - West of Essos, area of current Free Cities. And Andals, at that time, also lived in that area.

Look at maps:

What is left of Ghiscari Empire - 1. Slaver's Bay Their original territory was larger that this. 2. Dothraki Sea

3. Free Cities - this territory exept Braavos, was Valyrian Freehold.

4. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Andalos - Andalos is red dot on that map.

5. The Axe - blue territory.

First map is part of territory of Ghiscari Empire. They also managed to seize some territory in lower part of the Dothraki Sea, where they established three colonial cities (I gave links to their location on map, in my previous post). Land where Andals lived (map 4 & 5), were far out of area controlled by Ghiscari (map 1). So they didn't crossed their path, even when Andals were leaving Essos, because they sailed from western coast of Essos, and thus didn't met with Ghiscari even then.

But some of First Men for some time, probably for several hundreds years, lived on territory colonized by Ghiscari, and thus mixed with them. So First Men could have got red hair from Ghiscari, and Andals couldn't.

 

Also red hair is a mutation, while other colors of hair are defined by amount of eumelanin. Lots of eumelanin - dark hair, lesser amount of eumelanin - lighter the hair.

B is allele of dark color, b is allele of light color. But red hair is neither of those. Red hair is RR. To have red hair, carrier has to have two Rs, and got one from each of parents.

BbRr or Bbrr or BBRr or BBrr - dark hair; bbRr or bbrr - light hair.

r is recessive, R is dominant.

But if a person has RR, then it entirely stops production of eumelanin, and thus the carrier has only pheomelanin and red hair (pink to red hue, depending upon the concentration). So a person with BBRR, BbRR, or bbRR has red hair (various shades of it).

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I have a black cat who likes laying under the sun and she usually lays on one side. After spending an entire summer under the sun, one side of her becomes red-black.

It's not caused by sun damage or chemical damage.

Your black cat just has a recessive red genes.

https://www.thespruce.com/black-cats-variation-554865

Or most likely it's caused by a thermal reaction of tyrosinase. Heat affects melanin, and causes fur to change color.

https://www.cat-world.com.au/why-do-some-black-cats-coats-turn-that-reddish-brown-colour.html

[Corvo the Crow]

34 minutes ago, Megorova said:

No, we don't agree.

Dark hair is dark hair, i.e. - black, or brown, or even grey. Copper is also dark. Auburn is also dark

Fine then;

This is Robb

Quote

Catelyn had always thought Robb looked like her; like Bran and Rickon and Sansa, he had the Tully coloring, the auburn hair, the blue eyes. Yet now for the first time she saw something of Eddard Stark in his face, something as stern and hard as the north. "What am I doing?" she echoed, puzzled. "How can you ask that? What do you imagine I'm doing? I am taking care of your brother. I am taking care of Bran."

And this Jon

Quote

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.

And this is a comparison between the two

Quote

"No," Jon Snow said quietly. "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark." Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

 

38 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Also red hair is a mutation, while other colors of hair are defined by amount of eumelanin. Lots of eumelanin - dark hair, lesser amount of eumelanin - lighter the hair.

B is allele of dark color, b is allele of light color. But red hair is neither of those. Red hair is RR. To have red hair, carrier has to have two Rs, and got one from each of parents.

Wow you have finally decided to go this way, after only a week or so has passed since I have posted this, nice!

Spoiler

There's also this on hair color, this is from Wikipedia

 

HAIR PIGMENTS

There are two types of eumelanin—brown eumelanin and black eumelanin—which chemically differ from each other in their pattern of polymeric bonds. A small amount of black eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes grey hair. A small amount of brown eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes blond color hair.

Pheomelanins (or phaeomelanins) impart a pink to red hue, depending upon the concentration.

 

HAIR COLORS

BLACK

Black hair is the darkest hair color. It has large amounts of eumelanin and is less dense than other hair colors

 

BROWN

Brown hair is characterized by higher levels of eumelanin and lower levels of pheomelanin. Of the two types of eumelanin (black and brown), brown-haired people have brown eumelanin; they also usually have medium-thick strands of hair. Brown-haired girls or women are often known as brunette.

Chestnut hair is a hair color which is a reddish shade of brown hair. In contrast to auburn hair, the reddish shade of chestnut is darker. Chestnut hair is common among the native peoples of Northern, Central, Western, and Eastern Europe.

 

BLOND

Blond (or blonde for women) hair ranges from nearly white (platinum blond, tow-haired) to a dark golden blonde. Strawberry blond, a mixture of blond and red hair, is a much rarer type containing the most pheomelanin.

Blond hair can have almost any proportion of pheomelanin and eumelanin, but has only small amounts of both. More pheomelanin creates a more golden or strawberry blond color, and more eumelanin creates an ash or sandy blond color. Many children born with blond hair develop darker hair as they age, with the majority of natural blonds developing a hair color of a dark blond hue by the time they reach middle age. Pregnancy hormones hasten this process. Natural light blond hair is rare in adulthood, with claims of the world's population ranging from 2% naturally blond to 16% in the US. Blond hair is most commonly found in Northern and Western Europeans and their descendants but can be found spread around most of Europe. Studies in 2012 showed that naturally blond hair of Melanesians is caused by a recessive mutation in tyrosinase-related protein 1 (TYRP1). In the Solomon Islands, 26% of the population carry the gene; however, it is absent outside of Oceania

 

AUBURN

Auburn hair ranges along a spectrum of light to dark red-brown shades. The chemicals which cause auburn hair are eumelanin(brown) and pheomelanin (red), with a higher proportion of red-causing pheomelanin than is found in average brown hair. It is most commonly found in individuals of Northern and Western European descent.

 

RED

Red hair ranges from light strawberry blond shades to titian, copper and less commonly "true" red. It is caused by a variation in the Mc1r gene and is recessive Red hair has the highest amounts of pheomelanin around 67%, and usually low levels of eumelanin. At 1–2% of the population, it is the least common hair color in the world. It is most prominently found in the British Isles Scotland has the highest proportion of redheads; 13 percent of the population has red hair and approximately 40 percent carries the recessive redhead gene.

 

Genetics usually don't work Mendelian, not even in ASOIAF!

 

40 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Or most likely it's caused by a thermal reaction of tyrosinase. Heat affects melanin, and causes fur to change color.

Laying under sun = heat.

 

51 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Look at maps:

Ghiscari settlements are located on the southernmost edges, as you have also agreed in this post. We don't know which part of the Grass Sea First Men lived in originally.

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

So they existed before, during, and after First Men lived in Essos. First Men left Essos 12,000 years ago

Yeah, for sure!

 

Quote

As Westeros recovered from the Long Night, a new power was rising in Essos. The vast continent, stretching from the narrow sea to the fabled Jade Sea and faraway Ulthos, seems to be the place where civilization as we know it developed. The first of these (not withstanding the dubious claims of Qarth, the YiTish legends of the Great Empire of the Dawn, and the difficulties of finding any truth in the tales of legendary Asshai) was rooted in Old Ghis: a city built upon slavery.The legendary founder of the city, Grazdan the Great, remains so revered that men of the slaver families are still often given his name. It was he who, according to the oldest histories of the Ghiscari, founded the lockstep legions with their tall shields and three spears, which were the first to fight as disciplined bodies. Old Ghis and its army proceeded to colonize its surroundings, then, pressing on, to subjugate its neighbors. Thus was the first empire born, and for centuries it reigned supreme.

It was on the great peninsula across from Slaver's Bay that those who brought an end to the empire of Old Ghis—though not to all of their ways—originated. Sheltered there, amidst the great volcanic mountains known as the Fourteen Flames, were the Valyrians, who learned to tame dragons and make them the most fearsome weapon of war that the world ever saw. The tales the Valyrians told of themselves claimed they were descended from dragons and were kin to the ones they now controlled.

 

 

[Lady Dacey]

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Lady Dacey Thanks! Stubbornness is such a long running trait on one side of my family (4 generations at the least with just a single member as exception) I suspect it may even be genetically related

Uh, let's not get into the nature versus nurture debate 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

Uh, let's not get into the nature versus nurture debate 

Funnily enough, a quick internet search yielded me there really is a mutation that causes stubbornness, , present in roughly a third of the population. Who could've known

 

 

[ravenous reader]

You should all apply your prodigious intellectual talents to real-world genetic vs. environmental situations, rather than concocting theories that can never be disproved about fictional populations.  GRRM is not that clever to accurately mimic nature with any credible fidelity.

What I want to know, is why he's so obsessed with redheads; and moreover, why so many of them are sacrificed?  I surmise, the answer lies in the symbolic rather than pseudoscientific realm!

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair,

That as well could be reference to their skin - Robb's skin is pale, while Jon's is sort of tanned.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Wow you have finally decided to go this way, after only a week or so has passed since I have posted this, nice!

Probably you missed first three or four times that I wrote, that First Men could have had red hair.

Though it doesn't change nothing in case with Andals. They couldn't have gotten R alleles from anywhere. They and Ghiscari didn't met. Because they lived too far from each other. Aside from Ghiscari, other inhabitants of Essos, didn't had red hair. Those of them, that have it now, got it from Ghiscari.

Andals didn't had R allele, they all got only rr, so their hair color was determined only by pair of alleles in fist gene - bb.

 

We can continue this discussion forever, though the only people that know which of us is correct, is GRRM himself, and people that worked with him on book of Ice and Fire.

[Lady Dacey]

6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 

What I want to know, is why he's so obsessed with redheads; and moreover, why so many of them are sacrificed?  I surmise, the answer lies in the symbolic rather than pseudoscientific realm!

How many redheads get sacrificed? I always thought he was obsessed with blonds, pale blonds particularly...

[Corvo the Crow]

 

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

That as well could be reference to their skin - Robb's skin is pale, while Jon's is sort of tanned.

Evidence for proof, please. I think I can provide several other quotes in the same manner, can you provide any to the contrary?

 

 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Probably you missed first three or four times that I wrote, that First Men could have had red hair.

No I haven't missed those, check the spoilers if you haven't already and you'll understand what I meant.

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Aside from Ghiscari, other inhabitants of Essos, didn't had red hair. Those of them, that have it now, got it from Ghiscari.

Again, Ghiscari don't have red hair. You have provided yourself the information I have failed to provide; Heat makes black hair "reddish".

Even if we were to assume Ghiscari has red hair, Ghiscari empire rose around the time Westeros was recovering from the long night. Thousands of years after First Men crossed the arm. If anything, First Men remaining on Essos may have passed it to Ghiscari. And that is with the assumption that Ghiscari has red hair, not red-black.

 

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

We can continue this discussion forever, though the only people that know which of us is correct, is GRRM himself, and people that worked with him on book of Ice and Fire.

Actually, we can't because it takes two people to discuss and while you can continue on forever on assumptions not backed by text, there's only so much textual evidence I can provide to prove, disprove or dispute stuff.

Honestly, I believe not even GRRM himself may know with all the mistakes and changes over the years intentional or otherwise.

 

 

[Megorova]

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Again, Ghiscari don't have red hair. You have provided yourself the information I have failed to provide; Heat makes black hair "reddish".

No. Absolutely not! Human black or dark hair doesn't become reddish because of sun. Sun provides vitamin D, it affects melanin in body, and changes shade of skin and hair. But it doesn't make them reddish (aside from sunburn on skin). Under sun light colors become "tanned", dark colors "bleached". Not "reddish".

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And that is with the assumption that Ghiscari has red hair, not red-black.

Though Ghiscari's genetic pool is where First Men could have gotten R alleles.

Ghiscari had red-black hair, which means that they had BBRr or BbRr alleles.

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Actually, we can't because it takes two people to discuss and while you can continue on forever on assumptions not backed by text, there's only so much textual evidence I can provide to prove, disprove or dispute stuff.

Honestly, I believe not even GRRM himself may know with all the mistakes and changes over the years intentional or otherwise.

There will be more books, that can clear some things.

GRRM planned to write at least 9 books of Dunk&Egg.

"The She-Wolves of Winterfell" that will take place in The North, and from which we will probably know more about First Men, and how they defeated Andals.

"The Village Hero" that will take place in Riverlands. Probably it's there that Aegon will meet his future wife, Betha Blackwood, and Brackens - family of Aegor Rivers. So we will know more about confrontation between Blackwoods (that fought against Andals) and Brackens (that sided and intermarried with Andals).

"The Sellsword", "The Champion", "The Kingsguard", "The Lord Commander". In some interview GRRM said that Dunk and Egg traveled all over Westeros, and that they didn't went only to one of 7 Kingdoms, and did visited 6 others. So out of those 6 novels we will get more information about history of Westeros, First Men, Andals, oldest Houses of 7K, etc.

Probably there will be more information about looks of First Men and Andals.

 

Also my assumptions are backed by text, they are a logical assumptions, based on information provided in the books or GRRM's interviews, but you're just dismissing all of them as inessential. Example (let's try it your way, with Occam's Razor):

1. Majority of Westeros population were First Men, and Andals were less numerous.

This information is from The World of Ice and Fire. It's not my assumption, it's a fact.

2. Majority of modern population in Westeros has dark/brown/black/red hair, and minority has light/blond/golden/silver hair.

Which is also not an assumption. We went thru description of hair colors of characters from three regions of 7K (The North, Stormlands, and ... what was that third? The Vale or Beyong The Wall?). The point is - in all of those regions over 80% of population are not light-haired.

3. GRRM based First Men on Celts, and Andals on Anglo-Saxons. Celts were dark-haired, dark-eyed and had darker skin. Anglo-Saxons were light-haired, light-eyed, and had fair complexion.

Which is also not an assumption. I provided you textual evidences on both - GRRM basing his races on real world races, and description of those real races.

So we have this:

A. In the past majority of Westeros population were First Men, First Men were based on Celts, Celts were dark-haired and dark-eyed, majority of modern population of Westeros are dark-haired (brown/black/red/auburn). 

B. In the past minority of Westeros population were Andals, Andals were based on Anglo-Saxons, Anglo-Saxons were light-haired and light-eyed, minority of modern population of Westeros are light-haired (blond/golden/silver).

So based on A and B (that are pure facts) which is more likely - 1) First Men were dark, and Andals were light, or 2) First Men were light, and Andals were dark. ?

Option 1) is more likely.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

No. Absolutely not! Human black or dark hair doesn't become reddish because of sun. Sun provides vitamin D, it affects melanin in body, and changes shade of skin and hair.

Skin is alive, hair not so.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Though Ghiscari's genetic pool is where First Men could have gotten R alleles.

Time and again it is told, hair color doesn't work that way. There's no dominant-recessive trait on hair.

There's also this, if Ghiscari had red hair genes as you have suggested, then we would see black haired ghiscari, and red haired ghiscari not red-black haired ghiscari.

 

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

2. Majority of modern population in Westeros has dark/brown/black/red hair, and minority has light/blond/golden/silver hair.

 

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

So based on A and B (that are pure facts) which is more likely - 1) First Men were dark, and Andals were light, or 2) First Men were light, and Andals were dark. ?

Yes and Lann the clever was an Andal, right? Riiight!

I have come to the conclusion that you are just doing this for trolling.