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Lady Dacey

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  1. Uncanny. We are in such sync today. I wrote that specific bit thinking precisely about the bolded quote.
  2. Thanks @Megorova. I am aware of that thread. Here I was hoping we could get more analytical and less copypasting, in trying to decipher the mechanisms the author employs to foreshadow future events. Also I propose we do not talk about things that haven't happened yet, which abound in the topic you brought up.
  3. This is from the Wow, I never noticed that thread: Small little thing I just realized: the last pages of Samwell's first chapter in Feast are chock-full of references to Arya. Maybe they're there as foreshadowing to their encounter in Braavos later in the same book. I guess. Probably. Here is a list of the nods to the younger Stark daughter I gathered: 1) Gilly's response to Jon Snow It's a silly little thing, but it's there: "Don't you name him. Don't you do that till he's past two years. It's ill luck to name them when they're still on the breast. You crows may not know that, but it's true." "As you command, my lady." A spasm of anger flashed across Gilly's face. "Don't you call me that. I'm a mother, not a lady. I'm Craster's wife and Craster's daughter, and a mother." This very obviously calls back to our minds, as readers, the interaction between Arya and Gendry in Clash. If you don't remember: "My mother's a lady, and my sister, but I never was." "Yes you were. You were a lord's daughter and you lived in a castle, didn't you? And you . . . gods be good, I never . . ." All of a sudden Gendry seemed uncertain, almost afraid. "All that about cocks, I never should have said that. And I been pissing in front of you and everything, I . . . I beg your pardon, m'lady." "Stop that!" Arya hissed. Was he mocking her? "I know my courtesies, m'lady," Gendry said, stubborn as ever. "Whenever highborn girls came into the shop with their fathers, my master told me I was to bend the knee, and speak only when they spoke to me, and call them m'lady." "If you start calling me m'lady, even Hot Pie is going to notice. And you better keep on pissing the same way too." "As m'lady commands." Then there's the three named men of the Night's Watch that accompany them to Eastwatch. Each one of them has a sort of connection with Arya in one or more ways. Let's see. 2) Jack Black Bulwer The first named man is Jack Black Buwler. This relates to Arya a few different ways. First and most obvious, Arya has a Jack accompany her while she is a captive of the brotherhood without banners, and not just any Jack: Jack-Be-Lucky. Black Jack is the most widely played casino banking game in the world, did you know that? It involves some good amount of luck, if you can't count cards... Bulwer is also not a coincidence. The only other Bulwer in the story is Little Lady Bulwer, in Margaery's attendance at King's Landing. This is what Sansa tells us of her in Storm: Margaery's kindness had been unfailing, and her presence changed everything. Her ladies welcomed Sansa as well. It had been so long since she had enjoyed the company of other women, she had almost forgotten how pleasant it could be. Lady Leonette gave her lessons on the high harp, and Lady Janna shared all the choice gossip. Merry Crane always had an amusing story, and little Lady Bulwer reminded her of Arya, though not so fierce. In one instance, before Sansa tells us this, little Lady Bulwer is the one to catch one of many chicks that were running in all directions, remindind us readers of Arya catching cats and rabbits. Adding to it, semi-canonical sources have the Bulwer coat of arms as "a bull's skull, bone over blood". So another nod to Gendry there, and to weirwood colors. Neat. 3) Kedge Whiteye You know that Jack-Be-Lucky of the brotherhood I just mentioned? Well, this is how Arya introduces him to us in Storm: "I'll not believe it," said the one-eyed man in the rusty pothelm. The other outlaws called him Jack-Be-Lucky, though losing an eye didn't seem very lucky to Arya. And here is how Kedge shows up in Samwell's chapter: At the lichyard, a pair of two-wheeled wayns awaited him, along with Black Jack Bulwer and a dozen seasoned rangers, tough as the garrons they rode. Kedge Whiteye cursed loudly when his one good eye spied Sam. "Don't mind him, Slayer," said Black Jack. "He lost a wager, said we'd need to drag you out squealing from beneath some bed." So both Sam and Arya have a one-eyed companion. Okay there are lots of one-eyed people in asoiaf... But that's not all. Wanna know whose man this Kedge is? Want to? This is from Storm's prologue: Thoren Smallwood had returned in a lather three days past. While he was telling the Old Bear what his scouts had seen, his man Kedge Whiteye told the rest of them. I wonder if he's a brother-in-law to the Lady Ravella or something like that. 4) Lew Although "a dozen seasoned rangers" go with Sam, Gilly and Maester Aemon to Eastwatch, only three are named, them being Black Jack, Kedge and Lew. Lew says nothing the whole time, he is just mentioned in passing: By then the eastern sky was more grey than black. Left Hand Lew was anxious to be off. I don't have to point out Arya is our only left-handed POV, do I? 5) Chapter order and Braavos Arya's chapter aboard the Tita's Daughter follows this Samwell chapter immediately. With this choice, and the fact that we know both Arya and Sam are bound to Braavos, the author makes it easier for the reader to spot the connections he just embedded in the story. So yeah, that's it. It's a very short passage where Samwell is leaving the Wall and all these characters and quips have little reminders of Arya on them. One or the other could be a coincidence, but taken together it's impossible to deny, I think. Now I don't think this means a lot - as I said, I believe it's there to foreshadow the encounter Sam will have with Cat of the Canals in Braavos. But all this does make me think about other instances where the author might have hidden this sort of foreshadowing
  4. Hey there good folk of westeros.org I'm rereading Feast right now, and something sprung to my eyes in the first Samwell chapter. I posted it a few days ago on the “Wow, I never noticed that” thread, but it kept nagging at me and demanding its own post, so here it is. I’m thinking: let us make a collective, active effort to gather instances of foreshadowing in the series and discuss them? I’ll be very clear: I’m interested in organizing a collection of passages that, when reread, work to set the ground to future events that have been published within the five books available (so please do not post here a passage if it’s something you believe may foreshadow what you believe will come to pass in Winds, please, let’s stick with things that have ‘happened’). The point being trying to hash out how our man GRRM does his “foreshadowing” through the systematic analysis of the material we assemble. Can we figure a pattern to how he does it? I have seen much be made in the fandom of animal and food imagery, but I believe there is room for the scrutiny of weather descriptions and also recently I’ve come to think unimportant characters that get names could also be a thing. What about character’s speak: what has actually been ‘prophesized’ in words as such and then happened, and what have we been waiting for since Game that never panned out? There is much and more to explore. Shall we?
  5. I could say great minds think alike, but really that'd be too presumptous. I think it's more on the lines of "people who read carefully and stick to the text come to similar conclusions", anyway
  6. Hi there and welcome! I'm also in camp #2 as per @kissdbyfire thoughtful explanation, but I do love to indulge in some theory-talking, so there's this detail you brought up I'd like to be picky about, if you'll allow it. I'm not so sure about that. Not at all. Thoros is the only red priest we've heard could bring someone back to life, and he was very surprised when it happened: Storm, Arya VII: "Could you bring back a man without a head?" Arya asked. "Just the once, not six times. Could you?" "I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open. It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R'hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and fire is God's and God's alone." Now, Thoros attributes Beric's ressurection to R'hllor, that's quite clear. But I feel like we have to question if he's right about that... Thoros is a pink priest, not a red one. The fact that his color is fading is pointed out several times through the books, and I believe it is a symbol of his distancing himself from the Red God. I'll let the northmen do the talking. Dance, The Sacrifice "What has your southron god to do with snow?" demanded Artos Flint. His black beard was crusted with ice. "This is the wroth of the old gods come upon us. It is them we should appease." "Aye," said Big Bucket Wull. "Red Rahloo means nothing here. You will only make the old gods angry. They are watching from their island." Now you could argue that this is only true in the north (or you could argue that Flint and Wull are simply wrong, but then there is nothing for us to argue about. I think they do have something right). In the case that they are right about the north, I'd argue it also applies to the riverlands, or at least parts of it. Storm, Arya VIII "She will leave on the morrow, with us," Lord Beric assured the little woman. "We're taking her to Riverrun, to her mother." "Nay," said the dwarf. "You're not. The black fish holds the rivers now. If it's the mother you want, seek her at the Twins. For there's to be a wedding." She cackled again. "Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists." You might think, what has this to do with Beric? Well, this is how the undead lord is introduced to us: Storm, Arya VI A huge firepit had been dug in the center of the earthen floor, and its flames rose swirling and crackling toward the smoke-stained ceiling. The walls were equal parts stone and soil, with huge white roots twisting through them like a thousand slow pale snakes. People were emerging from between those roots as she watched; edging out from the shadows for a look at the captives, stepping from the mouths of pitch-black tunnels, popping out of crannies and crevices on all sides. In one place on the far side of the fire, the roots formed a kind of stairway up to a hollow in the earth where a man sat almost lost in the tangle of weirwood. So Beric is in a weirwood throne ruling over the Hollow Hill, where earth swallows the fire. I'd argue maybe it wasn't the power of Red Rahloo that brought back our Lord of Blackhaven, but something else. Remember they were on a riverbank "that first time" the Mountain slayed Beric Dondarrion - just like the instance when Catelyn Tully was brought back to 'life'. And it was Beric to give her the kiss, for Thoros refused. Beric is not a priest, we have no reason to think he knows any specific prayers or anything like that... Sorry, but all of this was just to argue that I don't think Melissandre thinks herself capable of ressurecting anyone, really. I don't think this is a thing often atributed to R'hllor, or any god in asoiaf for that matter.
  7. This doesn't strike me as little at all. It's quite a big change... actually most of what's been proposed on this thread is a major change to the story course Agreed. I wish Alyn-who-wanted-to-be-a-knight hadn't died, and Mikken too. I liked Mikken so much. It was terrible to see him die on page.
  8. I'd tell Jon Snow to stop with the fucking interrupting!! I WANNA KNOW WHAT MARSH MEANT TO SAY. And he should too! Jon is so sure he knows what will come of peoples mouths, I have an inkling the author wants us to question if his assumptions are really correct.
  9. That is the heart of what I disagree with. While the parallels you bring up seem accurate, they do not represent either what Sansa doesn't like about Arya or what she likes about Margaery. We never see her saying how Margaery is awesome because she rides so well or because she is well liked by the commons. Sansa admires Margaery's courtly manners, her politeness, her singing and playing, the ladies she has to attend her. Margaery is beautiful and charming, and that she rides and hawks is just a detail. Sansa never dislikes Arya because she is "beloved by the commons" but because she befriends them. Arya is not one to be wearing a beautiful silk and samite dress and then not really care when she gets a little mud on the hem, she wears riding leathers and roughspun breeches for days in a row. Arya is very uncourtly and dowright embarrasing for Sansa, when Margaery is none of those things.
  10. Yes indeed. I agree. I really like how sweet she is, how gentle she is, while being fierce at the same time. One thing is fueled by the other. She is fierce because she cares.
  11. Friend, I'm delighted we're here at it again. In my country we'd say we're "exchanging stickers", it's a figure of speech which references children's sticker albums, and how kids exchange duplicates so that the exchange benefits everyone involved. When two people have a chat to add to each other knowledge and help each other out we say they're exchanging stickers. I think maybe you are confusing mediums here. Sam and Gilly depart Castle Black before Selyse arrives with Shireen. To the best of my knowledge, Shireen and Gilly never met in the books. Also I don't think Gilly ever learned how to read from anyone at all. Maybe Sam will teach her? I don't know if he'll have time for that. I don't know where Gilly is going now, but she's been with us three whole books and I don't wanna loose sight of her, that's for sure.
  12. I'm thinking of the many smith-warriors we meet in asoiaf. Gendry the 'prentice smith is invited to wierd a sword by Ned Stark, then is given a sword by Yoren, then steals a sword (or three) from Harenhall's armory, then is knighted to become a smith again - only now he's forging his own sword, Brienne thinks this is very queer. Donal Noye, obviously, is the smith of smiths, he forged the hammer the slew Rhaegar Targaryen, crown prince, then went to smith for the Night's Watch, and becomes de facto lord commander, or at least garrison commander for Castle Black, for a brief moment - he holds the Wall, and he is the one to give it over to Jon Snow. Noye dies a warrior's death, in a one to one fight agaist none other than Mag the Mighty, the King of Giants. Mikken. Mikken is an armorer true and true, but his death is also very much one of a fighter and not of a labourer. He speaks up against Theon multiple times, even after Bran tells him to shut up. Tobho Mott is not a warrior at all, but then... he's not really that much of a smith either, more like a shop-owner. He's finely dressed and tending to lords and has journeymen and apprentices work his forges. of coooourse there's the Azor Ahai story too, which I almost forgot. Seems to me George is always putting stuff in characters' mouths to then show us otherwise in the narrative itself... Smiths, in general, don't appear most prominently as labourers in asoiaf post script: (@Seams I know you will like this, Bran 5 in Clash opens with "Alebelly found him in the forge, working the bellows for Mikken." a prince smith! What are they forging, I wonder.)
  13. So glad you admitted it!! You got me thinking. I can see that happening, I really can.
  14. Love, love, love Gilly. She is so determined and strong. She's super resilient in a way I find most admirable. I was devastaded when I realized she had left her son behind at Castle Black. A real tearjerker for me. Didn't help my son was also a baby at the breast when I read that for the first time. But, I'm confused. When did she learn how to read? Which princess did she encounter? Kojja Mo is not a princess or is she? I don't remember that and when I tried to find it I couldn't.
  15. Well in my experiencd the "mean girl" younger sister is also totally a thing. Me and mine own, we're friends now that we're both adults, and through the really rough stuff we were always there for each other... she even used to come to my bed in the middle of the night when she had nightmares, but by the light of day we were the exact picture of Arya and Sansa, except age reversed, since I'm older by three years (though if she were here she'd point out it's actually just two years and eight months). When we were kids I was reckless, untidy, angry and sharp-tongued, and couldn't do my hair or match a blouse to a skirt if my life depended on it (I tried, I did try sometimes) and she was the picture-perfect polite little lady, friendly and smart, and woke up ealier than strictly necessary to straigthen her hair before we had to go to school. Still I was the one that always made us late to class, poor her. With the benefit of hindsight, I can understand how frustrating it must've been on her side, really. I totally get Sansa, she does love Arya, but the little sister is such a huge nuisance it's hard to like her.
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