Duncan saved Rhaegar despite Aegon V?

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Jamie who looks up to Dunk?

I thought Jaime looked up to Arthur Dayne.

But since you told me I'm on your ignore list, you probably won't see this.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

13 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Bingo X infinity!!!!!!!

There you go, being rational. 

This never stops anyone from writing fan fic in here. 

Boom 

You guy's have the same week argument usually every time. Varys at least sounds half intelligent and not just repetitive with the same dribble. You Doran, not even close.

Your rational is as weak as, if it's not spelled out like a color by numbers then it must not be true. You put the same argument to everything. 

Youd be staring at Schrodinger's box ten years later going, nope! Cat still possibly alive! You havn't opened it yet so you dont know. I see no reason to think the cat is dead and may have food in there. We were never told the cat died so ergo the cat is still alive. Or optimus prime or what ever lame stuff you spew. 

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I thought Jaime looked up to Arthur Dayne.

But since you told me I'm on your ignore list, you probably won't see this.

 

Salty? hahaha and we've talked since then. So it just depends on how rude you are again with that mouth. Better than reporting people though.

And Jamie can't look up to Arthur and Ser Duncan? That's just sillly. Really? He looks up to Barristan also. Is there a control on role models now that i missed? hahahaha

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I phrased it that way because it is hilarious to assume that Dunk would do anything but that in the scenario we are talking about here. He would not try to sabotage the attempt to hatch the dragon eggs or mess with the wildfire involved in the ritual. He would just put the mad dog down.

There certainly is a possibility that Dunk wasn't exactly a fan of Egg's plan to hatch the dragon eggs - and perhaps even wary/skeptical of the whole wildfire part of the plan - but the chances that he had anything to do with the whole thing going to hell are very low indeed.

To be fair, we don't yet know the context of the entire trial-by-combat thing but the fact that Dunk ended up being the guy fighting Lyonel when no one in the universe could have forced him to do that is, quite frankly, pretty telling. Even if we assume Aegon V/Prince Duncan's honor had to be defended by a knight of the Kingsguard, then we still don't have an explanation as to why Dunk thought he should be the one to fight.

The very strong vibe I get from that is that Dunk had become Egg's man, body and soul, at that point, willing to do anything to defend his friend and his friend's family - and perhaps especially the life and honor of the young prince who was named after him. Duncan the Tall and Duncan the Small are not unlikely to turn out to be the best buddies ever.

There is also the possibility that we see a variation of the Osgrey-Webber theme here, with Dunk volunteering to do something stupid to get two people to finally talk to each other (again). And it seems to have sort of worked, considering that Lyonel apparently survived the encounter (although I'd find it very interesting if it turned out that Dunk maimed or severely injured Lyonel in the process of the duel - that would be a very ugly yet fitting twist after Ashford).

But then, we don't yet know when exactly Dunk joined the Kingsguard. If it was during the reign of Maekar or even Aerys I then he would have to be pretty fucked up at that point, considering that he would have been willing to serve Aerion as Kingsguard (both while he man was a prince and in the very likely scenario that the man ended up on the Iron Throne).

And we should also keep in mind that he apparently made short work of Daemon III Blackfyre, which is also not something we would expect the man to do who really formed some sort of bond with Daemon II Blackfyre in TMK.

You got alot here and some actually good thinking and looking at signs for character motivation or various things. Though i would also point out that even Jamie Lannister flipped his script. People can and do change.

Im unfortunately rushed at the moment but want to talk more about this all. 

Something had to have happened there for it to be a secret. There were survivors who can tell the tale, but its not. So something is up. The tragedy is unknown. 
Wildfire simply getting away from them and killing most people isn't a secret to be held. That's something that gets told as a cautionary tale. But that's not how it's given to us. Its given to us a mystery where we are not sure what happened, but that something happened.

Also ill get back to precious lil Aegon V. People act like who he was as a kid is who he was as a man? That's a total freaking joke lol That's about the stupidest thing i've heard. 

You guys are better off arguing Duncan being complacent or something to do with Duncan than try and convince me that Aegon V wasn't desperate to hatch dragons, and that desperation doesn't make men do bad things. Take Stannis, who even let's his Maester wear motley and later will sacrifice his daughter. Cressen even tells us that Stannis was never cruel like that. So that argument is weak and wishful.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Salty? hahaha and we've talked since then. So it just depends on how rude you are again with that mouth. Better than reporting people though.

I have no idea what you're on about here, but knock yourself out if it gives you any joy.

 

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And Jamie can't look up to Arthur and Ser Duncan? That's just sillly. Really? He looks up to Barristan also. Is there a control on role models now that i missed? hahahaha

 Erhm... of course he can. He can look up to a whole bunch of people. The point is, where are you getting it from? You stated it as if it is a well-known fact, like his admiration for Arthur Dayne. You know, the guy he thinks about on numerous occasions and thinks about how he wished he'd be like him. And since he never met Dunk, never talked about him once, and never spared him a single thought in all the thousands upon thousands of pages we have read, I am just curious as to how you reached that conclusion. It seems to me you mistook one for the other and now are a bit salty yourselfover your mistake.  

[kissdbyfire]

And whichever way this attempt at hatching dragons' eggs went down, it's obvious it had to be very hush-hush. Egg wasn't winning any popularity contests among the lords/high lords w/ the changes he wanted to implement. And I reckon these lords and high lords wouldn't be too keen on the Targs getting dragons again. 

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

I have no idea what you're on about here, but knock yourself out if it gives you any joy.

 

 Erhm... of course he can. He can look up to a whole bunch of people. The point is, where are you getting it from? You stated it as if it is a well-known fact, like his admiration for Arthur Dayne. You know, the guy he thinks about on numerous occasions and thinks about how he wished he'd be like him. And since he never met Dunk, never talked about him once, and never spared him a single thought in all the thousands upon thousands of pages we have read, I am just curious as to how you reached that conclusion. It seems to me you mistook one for the other and now are a bit salty yourselfover your mistake.  

Well no, its sad to have to do that, but for a better experience on this site with out tasteless comments used when arguments fall flat. Ill pass.

And what mistake? Jamie mentions Arthur, Duncan, and Barristan at some point in the story talking about how awesome they were or the perfect knight's. 

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Ser Barristan Selmy had preceded Jaime as Lord Commander. The shield atop his page showed the arms of House Selmy: three stalks of wheat, yellow, on a brown field. Jaime was amused, though unsurprised, to find that Ser Barristan had taken the time to record his own dismissal before leaving the castle.

Ser Barristan of House Selmy. Firstborn son of Ser Lyonel Selmy of Harvest Hall. Served as squire to Ser Manfred Swann. Named "the Bold" in his 10th year, when he donned borrowed armor to appear as a mystery knight in the tourney at Blackhaven, where he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. Knighted in his 16th year by King Aegon V Targaryen, after performing great feats of prowess as a mystery knight in the winter tourney at King's Landing, defeating Prince Duncan the Small and Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Slew Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Defeated Lormelle Long Lance and Cedrik Storm, the Bastard of Bronzegate. Named to the Kingsguard in his 23rd year, by Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower. Defended the passage against all challengers in the tourney of the Silver Bridge. Victor in the mêlée at Maidenpool. Brought King Aerys II to safety during the Defiance of Duskendale, despite an arrow wound in the chest. Avenged the murder of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt. Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight Blackshield, revealing him as the Bastard of Uplands. Sole champion of Lord Steffon's tourney at Storm's End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. Pardoned, and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, by King Robert I Baratheon. Served in the honor guard that brought Lady Cersei of House Lannister to King's Landing to wed King Robert. Led the attack on Old Wyk during Balon Greyjoy's Rebellion. Champion of the tourney at King's Landing, in his 57th year. Dismissed from service by King Joffrey I baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of advanced age

 

.

 

Nope, never thinks of Duncan when thinking about his own shit honor. Nope, never happened. I guess this is just more people making stuff up while Miss LynnS is just dropping truths like bombs lmao

 

Fail.

 

And ha! No, but sometimes i get salty hahahah  

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well no, its sad to have to do that, but for a better experience on this site with out tasteless comments used when arguments fall flat. Ill pass.

And what mistake? Jamie mentions Arthur, Duncan, and Barristan at some point in the story talking about how awesome they were or the perfect knight's. 

 

.

 

Nope, never thinks of Duncan when thinking about his own shit honor. Nope, never happened. I guess this is just more people making stuff up while Miss LynnS is just dropping truths like bombs lmao

 

Fail.

 

And ha! No, but sometimes i get salty hahahah  

Nice job w/ that quote, I didn't remember and felt too lazy to look it up.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

And whichever way this attempt at hatching dragons' eggs went down, it's obvious it had to be very hush-hush. Egg wasn't winning any popularity contests among the lords/high lords w/ the changes he wanted to implement. And I reckon these lords and high lords wouldn't be too keen on the Targs getting dragons again. 

And Aegon V desperately wanted the dragons specifically to keep those lords in order. 

Now if your suggesting a Lord's involvement, im open to suggestions as i think we should be asking questions about Summerhal.

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Nice job w/ that quote, I didn't remember and felt too lazy to look it up.

 

Hahaha it happens'. I've forgot lil things too. We're all human hahah  

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, AlaskanSandman said:

And Aegon V desperately wanted the dragons specifically to keep those lords in order. 

Yes, but he needed to try in secret and not announce it to the world. That was the point I was trying to make. 

Just now, AlaskanSandman said:

Now if your suggesting a Lord's involvement, im open to suggestions as i think we should be asking questions about Summerhal.

Not really, and I don't really think any lords were involved. That said, I have always felt very intrigued by this bit here...

ADwD, Jon VIII 

"Most like," said Bowen Marsh, stony-faced, "but the men do not like it. Traditionally the lord commander's squires are lads of good birth being groomed for command. Does my lord believe the men of the Night's Watch would ever follow a whore into battle?"

Jon's temper flashed. "They have followed worse. The Old Bear left a few cautionary notes about certain of the men, for his successor. We have a cook at the Shadow Tower who was fond of raping septas. He burned a seven-pointed star into his flesh for every one he claimed. His left arm is stars from wrist to elbow, and stars mark his calves as well. At Eastwatch we have a man who set his father's house afire and barred the door. His entire family burned to death, all nine. Whatever Satin may have done in Oldtown, he is our brother now, and he will be my squire." 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, but he needed to try in secret and not announce it to the world. That was the point I was trying to make. 

Not really, and I don't really think any lords were involved. That said, I have always felt very intrigued by this bit here...

ADwD, Jon VIII 

"Most like," said Bowen Marsh, stony-faced, "but the men do not like it. Traditionally the lord commander's squires are lads of good birth being groomed for command. Does my lord believe the men of the Night's Watch would ever follow a whore into battle?"

Jon's temper flashed. "They have followed worse. The Old Bear left a few cautionary notes about certain of the men, for his successor. We have a cook at the Shadow Tower who was fond of raping septas. He burned a seven-pointed star into his flesh for every one he claimed. His left arm is stars from wrist to elbow, and stars mark his calves as well. At Eastwatch we have a man who set his father's house afire and barred the door. His entire family burned to death, all nine. Whatever Satin may have done in Oldtown, he is our brother now, and he will be my squire." 

 

Well yes, he was doing it in secret from most people. Though all the Targs were there and id imagine the whole kings guard as every royal member is present. 

There could have been another k.g. member to have rebelled, but i just have a hard time picturing Duncan being ok with Aegon V actually hatching and having dragons. I think this aspect alone deserves further discussion. 

Why does Breane not know that she is Dunk's descendant? Did the family dissociate them selves from Dunk? 

And hmmm. That's an interesting catch. How many Targs died at Summerhal? 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

<snip> irt the secrecy, I only said what I said because you brought it up upthread:

"Something had to have happened there for it to be a secret."

 

Why does Breane not know that she is Dunk's descendant? Did the family dissociate them selves from Dunk? 

I suppose it's b/c this kid Dunk had was the result of an illicit affair.  

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And hmmm. That's an interesting catch. How many Targs died at Summerhal? 

Million dollar question? Or not? I find it interesting but never felt motivated enough to try and figure out. TBH, I'm not sure we have the info. 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I suppose it's b/c this kid Dunk had was the result of an illicit affair.  

Million dollar question? Or not? I find it interesting but never felt motivated enough to try and figure out. TBH, I'm not sure we have the info. 

Had to have still been noble though. Good point though.

And hmmm, im curious now. Worth looking into all things imo. 

[The Fattest Leech]

25 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well no, its sad to have to do that, but for a better experience on this site with out tasteless comments used when arguments fall flat. Ill pass.

And what mistake? Jamie mentions Arthur, Duncan, and Barristan at some point in the story talking about how awesome they were or the perfect knight's. 

 

.

 

Nope, never thinks of Duncan when thinking about his own shit honor. Nope, never happened. I guess this is just more people making stuff up while Miss LynnS is just dropping truths like bombs lmao

 

Fail.

 

And ha! No, but sometimes i get salty hahahah  

This is Jaime reading from the White Book. That is not that same as Jaime thinking about Duncan on his own out of admiration.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, AlaskanSandman said:

Had to have still been noble though. Good point though.

Not necessarily... he could have had an affair w/ a commoner that resulted in a kid who in turn married into th family. 

Just now, AlaskanSandman said:

And hmmm, im curious now. Worth looking into all things imo. 

Excellent! You can do the leg work and let me know what you discover!

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is Jaime reading from the White Book. That is not that same as Jaime thinking about Duncan on his own out of admiration.

He's reading from it while considering his crappy honor. That's the point of the scene. He's thinking about them in comparison to him self. So yes it is the same as him thinking on his own about Duncan. He looks up to their actions and deeds and feels bad about his tiny section and how it paints him as a horrible person. I wanted to become Arthur Dayne and i became the smiling knight. Which also plays into both Aegon and Duncan not ending as who they began as.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not necessarily... he could have had an affair w/ a commoner that resulted in a kid who in turn married into th family. 

Excellent! You can do the leg work and let me know what you discover!

 

Hmmmm, i dont see that one hahah Dunk a commoner maybe, but house Tarth? Idk. 

And pssshhhh lol never  jk  

[AlaskanSandman]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not necessarily... he could have had an affair w/ a commoner that resulted in a kid who in turn married into th family. 

Excellent! You can do the leg work and let me know what you discover!

 

And we know at least that Jaehaerys, shaera, Aerys, Rhaella, Rhaegar, Aemon, and possibly Daella, Rhae, and Rhaelle all survived. So doesn't leave alot of known Targs left unless we're not being told of some. Id have to check the deaths of some others. Unless Prince Duncan had children. 

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And we know at least that Jaehaerys, shaera, Aerys, Rhaella, Rhaegar, Aemon, and possibly Daella, Rhae, and Rhaelle all survived. So doesn't leave alot of known Targs left unless we're not being told of some. Id have to check the deaths of some others. Unless Prince Duncan had children. 

Yes, and given how long Duncan and Jenny were married, chances are they had some. But of course impossible to be sure they did at this point, let alone how many if they did.