Strange Thing About the Twins

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm pretty sure you got that wrong. The Storm Kings didn't capture any parts of the North. They ruled the current Stormlands, Crownlands and Riverlands. Also, the Stormland border of the time included parts of what is today the eastern Reach. But their realm at its maximum extent ended at the Neck. They never conquered parts of the North.

If you are able to show me a quote that contradicts this, I will concede, but I don't think I'm wrong on this.

Yeah, this looks right. The WB says he marched north and that other Storm Kings extended their possessions to the north, but this might just mean to the north of the stormlands or north from the Battle of Six Kings, which happened somewhere around Raventree.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 6:34 PM, cpg2016 said:

You misunderstood.  The amount doesn't change.  The Freys are obligated to provide a fixed amount of men and money (or goods in kind) every year.  It doesn't change.  Ever.  And no, Hoster won't have taxmen or officials - this isn't how medieval societies functioned.  There was barely any central democracy to speak of.  It's why the Church was so important.  Churches were rich in part because the monks and such were literate, and thus better able to monetize their land.  If Hoster Tully is receiving what Walder Frey owes him, he's not checking any further - he has no legal right to demand more.  This is what led to the decline of feudalism in the first place - as the Price Revolution took hold after the Black Death in the 14th Century, prices and wages began rising but feudal revenues were stagnant, impoverishing most nobles.

I think I understand your confusion. Like @Shouldve Taken The Black says, there were many forms of taxation. In the early medieval period, most taxes were based on land, which is a fixed asset and would thus be assessed at a fixed rate, ie, so much per acre or per something that used to be called a "hide." By the 12 Century AD, however, trade was moving large amounts of wealth in and out of the many kingdoms that now occupied the continent, so the powers that be instituted taxes on incomes and "moveable property", such as horses and wagons, but also goods like wool, wheat, etc. These would be assessed and collected at various toll points on roads and at rivers, and at market towns and seaports. The very word "tithe" comes from the Old English word for tenth, because it referred to one-tenth of one's annual income.

To assess these taxes and collect them, officialdom would disperse numerous officials and representatives, which, of course, resulted in mass corruption as people bribed their way to lower assessments. This, in turn, led to the implementation of poll taxes that were assessed at a fixed rate for every man, woman and child, and this led directly to peasant revolts and other violence when the poor realized that they were being taxed at the same rate as the rich.

So, yes, certain taxes were fixed, but those related to the movement of goods were assessed at a fixed rate for the variable quantities being moved, which means the actual tax burden rose and fall depending on your cargo -- and the lord who ultimately received this tax money would have a vested interest in making sure that the accounting for these transactions is accurate.

[cpg2016]

On 3/21/2018 at 3:21 PM, John Suburbs said:

Maybe, but in countless other examples we get descriptions of tunics, doublets, footwear, capes, jewelry or pretty much all aspects of armor -- helms, breastplates, gauntlets, greaves... Since Walder Frey in particular is generally cheesed off that other lords look down on him, it seems logical that he would want to dress himself and adorn his halls in ways that reflect this vast wealth he has accumulated from the crossing. But if he is, nobody seems to notice.

What does Rickard Karstark wear?  Lord Cerwyn?  What about Strongboar?  I'm asking honestly.  Plenty of lords aren't given descriptions of clothes.  And whether people notice, or whether the author wants us to notice, are two different questions.

On 3/21/2018 at 3:21 PM, John Suburbs said:

So, sorry, but the situation is exactly as I described.

Ummm... you described a scenario akin to the Hundred Kingdoms era.  What existed was a strong imperial state that saw occasional minor conflict that was put down almost immediately.  The language makes it clear that it was rare for these "rebellions" to last even a year.  Which means someone is declaring themselves king, and being destroyed almost as soon as the Storm King can march up there.  And yes, during the reign of the Hoares, there would have been more violence.  But nothing like you are intimating.  It's a loosely centralized feudal state, all over - warfare and raiding is endemic, this kind of small scale conflict is the norm.  Larger conflicts like the Hoare invasion might cause some disruption, but I think you are overestimating how many "refugees" there are going to be - people stay with the land, because otherwise they starve, and it's only the very uttermost need that drives them away.

On 3/21/2018 at 3:21 PM, John Suburbs said:

Roderic Dustin went from the north to the God's Eye long after the kingsroad was established. Why on earth would he cross the Twins to do that?

I don't know.  We don't know whether he did or not.  It's immaterial.

On 3/21/2018 at 3:21 PM, John Suburbs said:

I'm afraid you're the one who doesn't understand trade. Moving goods overland is slow and expensive, while moving them over fast-moving water is cheap and easy. When there was constant warfare in the region, as demonstrated above, and no major route connecting north and south, traffic over the crossing would have been significant. Now that the major overland route to the north passes the twins completely and there is clear sailing up and down all three forks, there is no reason for anything but local/regional traffic over the twins. They are largely irrelevant to the continental and transcontinental flow of goods.

So.... do you not understand the concept of them tolling downriver trade, as well as cross-river trade?  If they have the bridge they can control both.  This was my entire point about portage - the Freys control a great deal of it that comes down the Green Fork, as well as the overland route.

On 3/21/2018 at 3:21 PM, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but that would be absurd. You're saying that regardless of how much money is being made or what harvests are like, Hoster Tully just sits in his castle demanding exorbitant amounts of money and goods from all his vassals. Not only would this lead to rebellion, but it would also short Riverrun in times of plenty. Medieval lords had all manner of taxmen, sheriffs (as in, of Nottingham), inspectors, and other officials to keep an eye on things.

You are incorrect, sir, and it is not open to debate.  Feudal tithes are fixed amounts.  They are often NOT exorbitant, despite your assumption, but in bad times it could be difficult to make good on those payments.  Which is why nobles fall into debt.  There is no "shorting," and it would behoove you to stop applying anachronistic modern principles to a system where the fundamentally don't apply.  Your average lord is obligated to provide a certain number of troops for a certain number of days, every year (or if not, then scutage).  This number doesn't change, and levying additional taxes is extremely difficult.  There are a number of excellent scholarly works which explain how the system of feudalism broke down because of this very reason, that the fixed payment system couldn't keep up with inflation in the late medieval and early modern period, leading to the bankruptcy of many nobles and the breakdown of their power (and the concomitant increase in royal power).

And sheriffs ARE the medieval equivalent of a taxman.  They are tax farmers, little different than a lord in that respect.  They are obligated to deliver $XX in taxes, and they usually collect $XX+1 in order to make some money.  And for reference, there were 39 shires in medieval England... so 39 sheriffs.  This should give you some context for the level of central bureaucracy in the Norman period, which was notable for being very centralized by contemporary standards.  So no, I wouldn't expect the Tully's, who are weak overlords to begin with in a very decentralized system, to have a particularly robust mechanism to audit their vassals.  Which, again, is unnecessary, because all that matters is that the right amount comes in on time.

On 3/21/2018 at 3:21 PM, John Suburbs said:

I never said the Freys were not wealthy, just that their historical source of wealth, the crossing, is not the main revenue-generator it once was. Their additional income on top of what they receive from their lands and vassals is greatly diminished because the area is now stable and they are no longer sitting on the main trade route. So there is no reason to think of them as significantly more powerful than any other lord with similar holdings, and the military importance of their bridge has been miniscule for the past 300 years -- although now that the dragons are gone and the realm is breaking up, that may change.

Look.  They are noted to have grown wealthy on the back of taxing trade over the bridge.  We know that in the present day, they are still the most powerful of Riverrun's bannermen, which means it's unlikely to the point of impossibility that their source of revenue has gone dry.  Given what we know about about Westeros, it is just not possible for a parvenu House like the Freys to be competing with Houses like the Brackens or Blackwoods in terms of land-holdings, and yet, here they are being the most powerful.  Which means, they have a substantial additional source of income, much like how the Velaryons became the pre-eminent House in the realm off the back of international trade (essentially), or the Manderly's in the North.

On 3/21/2018 at 3:21 PM, John Suburbs said:

The Manderlys are wealthy precisely because they are sitting on the key point of entry for trade coming from Essos into the north. The Freys, on the other hand, are sitting on one of four ways in which goods from Essos can get into the riverlands, and the other three ways provide a much quicker and cheaper alternative. Like I said, if there was a seaport on the western edge of the Bite things might be different. But there isn't, which suggests that there is not a significant amount of trade flowing this way. So at best, the Freys are tapping the local trade moving around their realm, which does generate income but only from their local economy. It is not bring in significant amounts of wealth from afar.

It's worth pointing out the Manderly's created that point of trade, in part through having independent wealth.

At some point, we need to accept that the Freys are very wealthy, because they are stated to be so.  The question then isn't "how are all the ways GRRM can be wrong" but "is there one way this makes sense"?  I gave it to you.  It's a legitimate argument, that taxing trade across the Twins and down the Green Fork might give them the additional wealth necessary to be considered the second most powerful House in the Riverlands (maybe third, since Harrenhal isn't sworn to the Tullys).

On 3/21/2018 at 3:21 PM, John Suburbs said:

If this was the case, then rivers would not have produced the cradle of civilization. Every ancient civilization evolved around rivers precisely because they are so convenient for trade. Yandry and Ysilla make their living trading up and down no less a mighty river than the Royne. They poll their way downriver to Volantis, then sail upriver on the return. Jaime mentions that this is how it's done in the riverlands, as on the Greenblood in Dorne. Even Arya recognizes that a boat with a sail can get her to Riverrun faster than walking.

Lol.  That is.... well, it's basically entirely inaccurate, or so tertiary as to be meaningless (and also, isn't actually rebutting my point, which is agreeing that riverrine trade is more cost effective than overland trade), but since this is a point close to my heart, here we go.

The Mesopotamian civilizations grew up where they did because the Euphrates actually runs at a higher elevation than the surrounding floodplain, making irrigation an easy, if time-consuming, task of digging and maintaining canals and ditches (which, indeed, figures strongly into royal and religious imagery, and control of which were the main source of conflict).  Ditto for Harappan civilization around the Indus.  The Nile floods regularly and predictably, and leaves extremely rich alluvial silt deposits as fertilized soil.  In all three instances, the common framework is agriculture, not trade - this is further evidenced by the fact that the Tigris was far less settled early on, because it's a much more difficult river to irrigate from.  Karl Wittfogel coined the apt term hydraulic despotism to describe these civilizations, which is a cool phrase.

The fact that one could trade along rivers was entirely ancillary.  In fact, for large parts of ancient history, trade was far more likely to be caravan-based than by ship.  Old Assyrian merchants created far flung trading networks in Anatolia off the basis of caravans, not ships, despite being located smack in the middle of Northern Mesopotamia.  Ancient Egyptian expeditions to Punt were based on caravans, not ships.

None of which is to say that riverrine trade isn't vastly important by the time period we're talking about - but this is a particular expertise of mine, and I couldn't let that comment go without addressing it

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

What does Rickard Karstark wear?  Lord Cerwyn?  What about Strongboar?  I'm asking honestly.  Plenty of lords aren't given descriptions of clothes.  And whether people notice, or whether the author wants us to notice, are two different questions.

And perhaps none of these lords are extremely wealthy or are terribly concerned with the impression they make. By your reckoning, Lord Walder is both of these. So if he has the money and he is desperately trying to be taken seriously by the other lords, why is he not dressing so that other people notice his wealth and power?

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Ummm... you described a scenario akin to the Hundred Kingdoms era.  What existed was a strong imperial state that saw occasional minor conflict that was put down almost immediately.  The language makes it clear that it was rare for these "rebellions" to last even a year.  Which means someone is declaring themselves king, and being destroyed almost as soon as the Storm King can march up there.  And yes, during the reign of the Hoares, there would have been more violence.  But nothing like you are intimating.  It's a loosely centralized feudal state, all over - warfare and raiding is endemic, this kind of small scale conflict is the norm.  Larger conflicts like the Hoare invasion might cause some disruption, but I think you are overestimating how many "refugees" there are going to be - people stay with the land, because otherwise they starve, and it's only the very uttermost need that drives them away.

No, I said:

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But look at the situation back then compared to now. You had any number of marsh kings, river kings, vale kings, storm kings and iron kings all warring against each other, not to mention warfare between Brackens, Blackwoods, Vances, Mallisters and others. All of this would not only result in armies desperate to cross the river in order to get a jump on their enemies, but would lead to a flood of refugees trying to escape the fighting. Add to that the fact there is no main artery diverting the flow of goods around the Twins, and the only crossing on the Green Fork would serve as a natural conduit for trade in the area.

This is exactly what the World Book says. "And so they would remain for three centuries, though the river lords rose against Storm's End at least once each generation. A dozen pretenders from as many houses would adopt the style of River King or King of the Trident ..." and then it lists Vances, Mallisters and others. A dozen over 300 years is roughly once every 25 years. They would reign for a brief period, but this came as the result of campaigns, fighting, sieges and other forms of warfare. In between, you had the Bracken/Blackwood feud and other clashes as one lord tries to one-up his neighbor during the power vacuums that would arise amid all this rebellion against SE.

Fighting produces refugees, just as it did with the War of the Five Kings. You think this was the first time that one lord invaded another's territory and burned villages and holdfasts, or that the retreating lord burned all the crops to starve the invader? Every time an army invaded from the stormlands, refugees would stream north. War produces disease, starvation, famine and death -- unpleasant things that people try to get away from.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

I don't know.  We don't know whether he did or not.  It's immaterial.

Well, you're the one who brought him up, so I assumed you were trying to make a point about something.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

So.... do you not understand the concept of them tolling downriver trade, as well as cross-river trade?  If they have the bridge they can control both.  This was my entire point about portage - the Freys control a great deal of it that comes down the Green Fork, as well as the overland route.

I'm sure they did collect a river toll, but the book explicitly says that it's the crossing that is the source of the Frey's great wealth. It's why Walder is Lord of the Crossing, why their arms are two castles and a bridge. It's what the World Book says, it's what Catelyn, Tyrion et al say, it's what the index says is the very history of House Frey. You might also note that there is not a lot upriver from the Twins, so again, their river traffic could not be very heavy.

If the river tolls are actually the source of their wealth, then this would not be distinguishable from any other lord who controls a river, and it would be a pittance compared to whomever controls the kingsroad bridge over the Trident.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

You are incorrect, sir, and it is not open to debate.  Feudal tithes are fixed amounts.  They are often NOT exorbitant, despite your assumption, but in bad times it could be difficult to make good on those payments.  Which is why nobles fall into debt.  There is no "shorting," and it would behoove you to stop applying anachronistic modern principles to a system where the fundamentally don't apply.  Your average lord is obligated to provide a certain number of troops for a certain number of days, every year (or if not, then scutage).  This number doesn't change, and levying additional taxes is extremely difficult.  There are a number of excellent scholarly works which explain how the system of feudalism broke down because of this very reason, that the fixed payment system couldn't keep up with inflation in the late medieval and early modern period, leading to the bankruptcy of many nobles and the breakdown of their power (and the concomitant increase in royal power).

And sheriffs ARE the medieval equivalent of a taxman.  They are tax farmers, little different than a lord in that respect.  They are obligated to deliver $XX in taxes, and they usually collect $XX+1 in order to make some money.  And for reference, there were 39 shires in medieval England... so 39 sheriffs.  This should give you some context for the level of central bureaucracy in the Norman period, which was notable for being very centralized by contemporary standards.  So no, I wouldn't expect the Tully's, who are weak overlords to begin with in a very decentralized system, to have a particularly robust mechanism to audit their vassals.  Which, again, is unnecessary, because all that matters is that the right amount comes in on time.

Sorry, but you are confused as to what is fixed and what is not. The tithe is fixed at 10 percent, but the actual amount collected is based on the amount of goods being shipped. Tithe is literally derived from the Old English word meaning tenth. So if in year one you bring five bushels of wheat to market, the taxman takes half a bushel. If year two produces 10 bushels, he takes one bushel. If year three only gets you one bushel, the taxman doesn't take it all, he takes one tenth.

You can read all about tithes and feudal taxation here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_medieval_England

and here

http://spartacus-educational.com/EXnormans23.htm

and here

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/medieval-england/the-lifestyle-of-medieval-peasants/

and here

http://www.castlesandmanorhouses.com/life_09_taxes.htm

Notice how the only fixed taxes were applied to land (since it is a fixed asset) and individual taxes like scutage and poll taxes. Taxes on moveable goods (ie trade) and incomes were based on the amount of trade or income in question, so the actual tax collected at tolls, market towns and seaports would vary from year to year depending on the volume and value of goods being shipped and the powers the be would have scribes and officials and bureaucracies designed to assess this trade and tax it accordingly.

In the books, we see multiple examples of harbor officials climbing aboard vessels, taking inventory of the hold and collecting the tax before any goods are unloaded? Are you telling me that they are smart enough to put all this in place to measure the trade coming and going by sea, but not when it moves over a bridge?

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Look.  They are noted to have grown wealthy on the back of taxing trade over the bridge.  We know that in the present day, they are still the most powerful of Riverrun's bannermen, which means it's unlikely to the point of impossibility that their source of revenue has gone dry.  Given what we know about about Westeros, it is just not possible for a parvenu House like the Freys to be competing with Houses like the Brackens or Blackwoods in terms of land-holdings, and yet, here they are being the most powerful.  Which means, they have a substantial additional source of income, much like how the Velaryons became the pre-eminent House in the realm off the back of international trade (essentially), or the Manderly's in the North.

Sorry, my friend, but we don't know that any of this wealth and power is due directly to the crossing. And nobody says it has gone dry, just that it is not as lucrative as in the days when it was a crucial commercial/military crosspoint.

The Freys have been a leading house along with the Brackens and the Blackwoods for a long time, a situation which had arisen by the time of the Conquest but which is now diminishing given that the bridge is no longer on the key trade route in the area.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

It's worth pointing out the Manderly's created that point of trade, in part through having independent wealth.

At some point, we need to accept that the Freys are very wealthy, because they are stated to be so.  The question then isn't "how are all the ways GRRM can be wrong" but "is there one way this makes sense"?  I gave it to you.  It's a legitimate argument, that taxing trade across the Twins and down the Green Fork might give them the additional wealth necessary to be considered the second most powerful House in the Riverlands (maybe third, since Harrenhal isn't sworn to the Tullys).

Good grief, what book are you reading? We have to accept this because it's stated as so? Like it was stated that Dorne could field 50,000 spears, or Jaime and Cersei murdered Jon Arryn, or that Davos was executed at White Harbor...? I cannot believe that there is anyone on this forum who has not come to the realization that things in the book are not always as stated by the POV.

Sorry, but GRRM has got this exactly right: the crossing was once a significant source of wealth for the Freys, but no longer.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Lol.  That is.... well, it's basically entirely inaccurate, or so tertiary as to be meaningless (and also, isn't actually rebutting my point, which is agreeing that riverrine trade is more cost effective than overland trade), but since this is a point close to my heart, here we go.

The Mesopotamian civilizations grew up where they did because the Euphrates actually runs at a higher elevation than the surrounding floodplain, making irrigation an easy, if time-consuming, task of digging and maintaining canals and ditches (which, indeed, figures strongly into royal and religious imagery, and control of which were the main source of conflict).  Ditto for Harappan civilization around the Indus.  The Nile floods regularly and predictably, and leaves extremely rich alluvial silt deposits as fertilized soil.  In all three instances, the common framework is agriculture, not trade - this is further evidenced by the fact that the Tigris was far less settled early on, because it's a much more difficult river to irrigate from.  Karl Wittfogel coined the apt term hydraulic despotism to describe these civilizations, which is a cool phrase.

The fact that one could trade along rivers was entirely ancillary.  In fact, for large parts of ancient history, trade was far more likely to be caravan-based than by ship.  Old Assyrian merchants created far flung trading networks in Anatolia off the basis of caravans, not ships, despite being located smack in the middle of Northern Mesopotamia.  Ancient Egyptian expeditions to Punt were based on caravans, not ships.

None of which is to say that riverrine trade isn't vastly important by the time period we're talking about - but this is a particular expertise of mine, and I couldn't let that comment go without addressing it

Sure, rivers were also very good for agriculture, but they were also the primary means of moving goods. Nobody in their right mind is going to trudge along a river road, dealing with stuck wheels and finding fodder for horses and the excruciatingly slow pace when they can move larger loads faster and cheaper downriver. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure, rivers were also very good for agriculture, but they were also the primary means of moving goods.

I'm agreeing with most of your points Suburbs, but I wouldn't overstate this particular point. It really depends on the region and the era, and isn't a general truth. Most internal trade in the Middle Ages would have been conducted by road, as rivers weren't always very navigable or reliable. They would vary in depth and width at various points, making it hard to know what sort of craft to use, they would often be clogged with all sorts of debris, and so forth. There would be no real infrastructure to maintain the waterways, so it would be dependent on whoever owned the land through which the river ran to upkeep his bit, which would be unreliable at best.

There were exceptions to this, but it would be dodgy to make a general statement like rivers were "a primary means of moving goods".

Not that it really matters, we know that the rivers in the Riverlands are a means of moving goods, and were navigable by boat, so a debate about how important they were in this regard in our history is a dead end.  

[Bernie Mac]

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And perhaps none of these lords are extremely wealthy or are terribly concerned with the impression they make. By your reckoning, Lord Walder is both of these. So if he has the money and he is desperately trying to be taken seriously by the other lords, why is he not dressing so that other people notice his wealth and power?

eh? How do you know he is not? There is no mention of what he wears, Cat and her family, who the Freys pay their taxes to, are under the impression that the Freys are wealthy and yet she makes zero mention of what Walder is wearing ipso facto he is wearing the expected attire someone of his standing should be wearing as is his entire family. 

And the clothing issue is ridiculous, Walder has hosted multiple stays for kings and Queens(which is not cheap), his sons, legitimate and bastards, are regulars at tourneys (which is also not cheap); if the Frey attire was  seen to be less than what it should be it would be known. 

Rather than pay for 1,000 knights Walder  could simply pay for 998 and have him self some nice duds. The clothing issue is none starter. 

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I'm sure they did collect a river toll, but the book explicitly says that it's the crossing that is the source of the Frey's great wealth. It's why Walder is Lord of the Crossing, why their arms are two castles and a bridge. It's what the World Book says, it's what Catelyn, Tyrion et al say, it's what the index says is the very history of House Frey. You might also note that there is not a lot upriver from the Twins, so again, their river traffic could not be very heavy.

The crossing acts as a significant shortcut to get to the Kingsroad from the central Riverlands and the Northern Westerlands. 

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If the river tolls are actually the source of their wealth, then this would not be distinguishable from any other lord who controls a river, and it would be a pittance compared to whomever controls the kingsroad bridge over the Trident.

No, as not all Lords are going to control the same amount of the River. We know the Freys control lands on both the Green and Blue Fork, we know that they are the furthest House North in the Riverlands and their lands go quite far south (with Arwood Frey going to Darry as he is policing his grandfather's lands)

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Sorry, my friend, but we don't know that any of this wealth and power is due directly to the crossing. And nobody says it has gone dry, just that it is not as lucrative as in the days when it was a crucial commercial/military crosspoint.

Nobody claims it was more lucrative 300 years ago. Not one source in the series makes that claim, you have invented that purely from looking at a map with little detail. 

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The Freys have been a leading house along with the Brackens and the Blackwoods for a long time, a situation which had arisen by the time of the Conquest but which is now diminishing given that the bridge is no longer on the key trade route in the area.

I'm sorry, but that is bullshit. They are quite clearly stated to be the most powerful Riverland vassal House during the War of the Five Kings, there is zero evidence that they had that status during the Blackfyre Rebellions, the Dance of the Dragons, Aegon's conquest or the reign of House Hoare. 

Please provide evidence that their position is diminishing as this runs contradictory to everything that we have been told about them in the series. 

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Good grief, what book are you reading? We have to accept this because it's stated as so? Like it was stated that Dorne could field 50,000 spears, or Jaime and Cersei murdered Jon Arryn, or that Davos was executed at White Harbor...? I cannot believe that there is anyone on this forum who has not come to the realization that things in the book are not always as stated by the POV.

But it is not just stated by a POV, it is stated by the author himself in the Appendix. There is no reasons for him to lie to the reader, he does not even have to mention their wealth, it is a lie for the sake of it. This is a conspiracy for the sake of a conspiracy. 

 

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Sorry, but GRRM has got this exactly right: the crossing was once a significant source of wealth for the Freys, but no longer.

Where does he say that? 

There is zero evidence that the Twins were more profitable before the Targaryens showed up, none whatsoever. 

"Notable amongst them was the puissant knight, Lord Forrest Frey, who had once been a suitor for Rhaenyra's hand. The Freys were not an old house. They had risen to prominence some six hundred years ago, their line originating from a petty lord who raised a rickety wooden bridge across the narrowest part of the Green Fork. But as their wealth and influence grew, so did the Crossing. And soon the castle grew from a single tower that overlooked the bridge to two formidable towers that bracketed the river between them. These two keeps, now called the Twins, are amongst the strongest in the realm."

Given that we have no idea when the second castle was built you can't claim they stopped being profitable pre Targ. 

What seems to be pretty clear is that their current standing, as the most powerful vassal of Riverrun, was not their standing when Aegon conquered. They have grown stronger, not weaker, since the realm became united. 

 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:05 PM, John Suburbs said:

Yes, this right to assess and gather taxes is a unique situation for Dorne. So there is no reason to think that they Freys would also have this similarly unique right to gather and pay taxes on their crossing with only irregular oversight from Riverrun.

Exactly my point. The Tully's are going to have a fair idea how much traffic and how much revenue the  crossing generates.  The Tully's believing they are wealthy means there is a strong chance that it is true. 

 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

 

Sure, the earnings, the real earnings. Hoster Tully would not want it known that the principal house on his eastern border is not as wealthy or powerful as it seems.

eh? I have no idea what you are getting at here. Our primary sources for the Freys wealth is not Hoster Tully, it is

• the author in the appendix
• Cat in a private conversation with her son
• Dunk and others in the Mystery Knight before Hoster was even born
• Maester Yandel

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

He is not an idiot; he is sure to have officials, tax collectors and others all throughout the realm keeping track of economic activity, including river crossings. He is collecting a portion, but there is no reason to think the Freys are paying any more then they are able.

So then why is his daughter so sure that the bridge generates a significant amount of wealth?

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Of course it would, but it would also free up the rivers to move goods. When there are multiple petty kings in the region,

The Freys have never existed in a time when there was multiple petty kings in the Riverlands. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

every time you moved from one section of the river to another you run the risk of being boarded and your goods confiscated. Now that the entire region is under the king's peace, this is no longer an issue. Sure, there are river pirates, but there are also robbers on the kingsroad.

Ran revealed that the North would reularly raid the South during winter before the Targs, so the dangers were far greater to that area than they currently are. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

For the westerlands and the central west riverlands, the twins is the significant detour. Why go all they way north, just to pay a toll to get to the kingsroad when you can just float your goods down any one of the major rivers to the seaports where you can get the highest prices for your goods?

There is a lack of ports on the West coast, most of the major settlements centrally or eastern located in the North and the Ironborn regularly pirate, even under the Targs. The Road makes a safer, if slower alternative and crossing at the Twins,for whatever modest fee is charged, is an option some merchants may choose to make. 

GRRM has given understandable reasons why travelling by road may well be preferred. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

At best, the crossing is useful for the immediate area around the twins, but all other trade will get to the lucrative markets quicker and more cheaply by river.

You keep on saying that without using any evidence from the books to back this up.

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Because a) it's not easy to dismantle a bridge across a major river and b ) the crossing is only reason why people think the Freys are so rich and powerful.

You don't think the 4,000 men they are able to summon would also lead people into thinking they are rich and powerful? Or the significant lands they own in the Riverlands? Or the large amount of money

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

And c) it would look pretty silly for the Lord of the Crossing to no longer have a crossing. Plus, you never know, the dragons are dead and the realm may just be on the verge of another round of anarchy that would reestablish the crossing as a key military and commercial asset.

So your saying that he can't afford to dress as wealthy as others think of him but he can afford to maintain an expensive bridge in an effort to look richer than he is. That is some bizarre logic right there. 

The Starks have let an entire tower go to ruin for more than a century, the Whents live in a ruin and are still considered wealthy yet according to you the Freys will look poor  if they stop maintaining  a bridge that they are operating on a loss? 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

I am sure they are still a powerful Tully vassal, perhaps even the most powerful. All I'm saying is that the tolls from the crossing are not as great as they once were, so it is no longer the principal contributor to their wealth and power.

We have no idea what they once were. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Like I said above, I doubt they are paying more to Riverrun than what they actually owe.

So then why would the Tully's be under the impression that they are so wealthy? Medieval tax was a percentage of a Lord's earnings, it was not a flat fee, everyone paying the same amount. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Every mention of the Freys talks about how rich and powerful they are by virtue of the crossing. The history of their family is that the tolls are the source of their wealth.

No, not every mention. Some times the Freys are simply called rich without their bridge being mentioned. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

They are obviously able to produce gold and silver and whatever else is needed to pay dowries, field armies, bribe officials and whatever else. But the source of this wealth is very unlikely to come from the crossing. It's just not that important anymore.

Clearly it is. 

Why do you think GRRM has gone to the trouble of having multiple characters reference the bridge as the source of their wealth? What difference does it make where their wealth comes from?

 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Virtually every other lord is described head to toe in fine fabrics, expensive jewels and all the other trappings of wealth, but never Walder Frey. Why would everyone notice the finery on these other lords if that is exactly what they are expected to look like?

If Walder Frey and his many children are wearing clothes that are seen as beneath their standing this would be comment worthy. If Walder was so intent on presenting himself as wealthier than he is the first thing he would be doing is dressing the part, it is deception 101. 

And which characters are you referring to? Which people has Cat seen that she has noted their expensive trappings of wealth? Since Cat is the only POV who has interacted with Walder and been at the Twins I presume you have plenty of evidence to support your claim that virtually every other lord she describes is dressed better than Walder. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

But again, you keep coming back to this idea that I'm saying the Freys are flat broke. I'm not saying that at all, just that the tolls are no longer a significant source of their wealth.

Which I disagree with given there is no reason for Cat or the Appendix to lie about this and given the fact that we have zero information on how profitable the tolls even were pre Aegon there is no argument to be made about the tolls being less than what they once were. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

I never said they were destitute, just that their wealth is not as considerable as it once was.

We have no idea what it once was. We only know their status during the era of Hoster/Edmure. 

In fact military wise their present day 4k men seems to suggest they have increased in power since the Dance of the Dragons were we only saw 800. But I'd hardly use this as concrete evidence. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

I didn't concoct the overtaxes conspiracy; that was your idea. All I said was that if they had to pay a little extra they would do so, but this is unlikely because Hoster Tully would have his own men verifying the incomes so as not to be cheated.

Which means that Cat and the Tullys are going to have a fair idea how much trade goes across the Twins and if they think it is the basis of their wealth then it stands to reason that it is. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Who knows? Why don't we wait until the rest of the story comes out to make that call?

eh? You are the one making the call that the author lied to the readers in the appendix. I'm just backing up what the books have said, I have not made any call. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

The appendix tells the history of each house. The Frey history is that they grew rich off the tolls, which is quite likely true. I'm just saying that the situation now, politically and commercially, makes it unlikely in the present. From what I gather, you agree with this as well.

No the appendix does not tell their history, it also gives a present description of their status. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Because that is the history they've been told. Why does everyone believe Dorne has 50,000 spears?

It was written in a book. There have actually been displays of the Frey's wealth. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Because she notices this finery. She doesn't notice it anywhere else in the castle.

Given that the amount of visitors the Freys have had in Walder's time, it would be no secret if it looked poor. It would be public news. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Why would they want to travel the kingsroad to sell their goods when they can just float downriver to the seaports where they can get the best prices? Moving goods by river is quick and cheap. Overland is slow and expensive.

 The North needs food and other goods and similarly the North has goods it would want to sell to the central Riverlands and Westerlands;  and due to its East coast having few ports as well as how notable the dangerous the nearby Iron islands are other options are preferred. Travelling by road is the safer option. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Robb needed to cross, and his was one of maybe three armies that needed to do this in the last 300 years. Any merchant in neighboring Bracken and Blackwood lands are going to save time and money by taking the river directly to the principal markets.

And the markets in the North? Merchants can have more than one destination, they can't all turn up at Fairmarket and expect to sell all their goods or receive the best prices for those goods. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

 

Any northern merchant would head over to White Harbor where, again, the prices will be highest.

Many certainly would, but not all. Some would look elsewhere. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

If they bother to trudge the two weeks down the causeway, they would still have plenty of places to sell and trade along the kingsroad.

Again that is true, but some would still want to go to the cash rich Westerlands and the central Riverlands. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

Like I said earlier, there is likely to be very little traffic in winter.

lol you keep on mistaking your head cannon for fact. Given the need for food traffic may well increase in winter, we really don't know. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

It's cold and most people are living off their own stores, not selling them.

Of course they are selling them. Merchants would know that grain is most profitable during winter, do you think Littlefinger is the first person to come to this obvious conclusion?

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

Goods from Essos, of course, are still coming in, however, and it is far easier to tap this section of the riverlands by sailing upriver than taking the kingsroad, cutting across land and paying a toll.

lol your obsession with the toll is becoming amusing now. You think that would have much bearing on the decision of merchants to trade in winter. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

. Like I said, this is a trickle compared to the main action on the KR.

Literally based on nothing from the books. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Uhm, have you noticed that nobody uses the silk road anymore? It's much cheaper, easier and faster to move goods by sea.

Are you under the impression that boats were invented after the silk road? Or that there were no boats before Aegon?

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Anyone who is collecting tolls on what used to be the silk road is getting only the barest fraction of trade -- the regional action, not the main action.

True. Not sure what this has to do with the Freys in Westeros?

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Lol, sorry, my bad. But again, no one is arguing that the Freys are destitute. I hope whatever misunderstanding we had on this point has been cleared up by now. They have means, incomes, etc. expected of a major house with extensive lands and a kick-ass pair of castles. But tolls from the crossing are not likely to be a significant source of this wealth.

So why do so many think they are? If they are wealthy, which they obviously are, why has the author continually suggested that the bridge plays a significant roll in this?

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

OK, so the same situation here. Nobody actually knows how wealthy the Freys are. All they know is what they've been told about the history of the house. Just like Dorne, that history is not necessarily true.

No, that is actually not true. We have never hears of the Freys being called wealthy pre Aegon I. All their mentions of wealth have came afterwards. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

Meh, we may or may not find out about House Lannister's finances. But, please for the last time, I am not arguing that the Freys are "overspending." If they are, it's hard to see what they are overspending on.

Taxes, dowries, bridge  maintenance, knights basically all the things I previously mentioned. Houses that spend beyond their means go broke, they don't carry on the charade for three centuries. 

On 17/03/2018 at 8:02 PM, John Suburbs said:

The characters in the book are repeating what they have been told is the truth about the Freys and the crossing. Mayhaps some of the more perceptive characters can puzzle out the real situation here, but Catelyn, for one, would not be one of them.

Cat is one of the most perceptive characters in the book. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think the evidence points to the Freys being a young House which got their leg up when they built a rickety bridge over the narrowest part of the Trident (I can never remember which Fork is which, Green, Blue, Red, whatever), and that their wealth is recent. The growth was gradual and increased over time. Sure, it would fluctuate from generation to generation depending on the frequency of travel, wars, droughts, summers, winters etc, but I think Walder Frey is richer than his ancestor of 100 years ago was, and that ancestor was richer than the one that lived 100 years before that.

I don't think they are living off old money and are in decline. I think they are at the peak of their wealth right now. (Although not for much longer as their extinction in a catastrophic, karmic vengeance fest is imminent).

[John Suburbs]

16 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I'm agreeing with most of your points Suburbs, but I wouldn't overstate this particular point. It really depends on the region and the era, and isn't a general truth. Most internal trade in the Middle Ages would have been conducted by road, as rivers weren't always very navigable or reliable. They would vary in depth and width at various points, making it hard to know what sort of craft to use, they would often be clogged with all sorts of debris, and so forth. There would be no real infrastructure to maintain the waterways, so it would be dependent on whoever owned the land through which the river ran to upkeep his bit, which would be unreliable at best.

There were exceptions to this, but it would be dodgy to make a general statement like rivers were "a primary means of moving goods".

Not that it really matters, we know that the rivers in the Riverlands are a means of moving goods, and were navigable by boat, so a debate about how important they were in this regard in our history is a dead end.  

Well, of course the river has to be navigable to make a good trade route. The point is, when given the option of moving goods to a certain destination by river or road, most people would use the river, particularly for heavy bulk items like wood or stone. This does not mean goods were not delivered by road, just that this was a slower, costlier means of transport.

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? How do you know he is not? There is no mention of what he wears, Cat and her family, who the Freys pay their taxes to, are under the impression that the Freys are wealthy and yet she makes zero mention of what Walder is wearing ipso facto he is wearing the expected attire someone of his standing should be wearing as is his entire family. 

And the clothing issue is ridiculous, Walder has hosted multiple stays for kings and Queens(which is not cheap), his sons, legitimate and bastards, are regulars at tourneys (which is also not cheap); if the Frey attire was  seen to be less than what it should be it would be known. 

Rather than pay for 1,000 knights Walder  could simply pay for 998 and have him self some nice duds. The clothing issue is none starter. 

The point is, people accept this notion that the crossing has made the Freys one of the wealthiest houses in the kingdom, but there is no evidence to support this. All other wealthy people are described by their fine clothes, jewelry, impressive manses and other trappings of wealth even though that is exactly what they would be expected to have. So all I'm saying is that there is no basis on which to conclude that the Freys are indeed wealthy far and above anyone else in the realm.

The Darrys, Whents, Umbers, Ashfords, Butterwells, Dondarrions, Caswells and countless other houses have hosted kings and held tourneys all at great expense, and none of them have a bridge that is said to bring them vast wealth. Heck, the Caswells are sitting at Bitterbridge and nobody talks about how incredibly wealthy it has made them.

So the clothing issue is a non-starter. It in no way confirms this idea that the Freys are still drawing vast sums of wealth from the crossing.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The crossing acts as a significant shortcut to get to the Kingsroad from the central Riverlands and the Northern Westerlands. 

To what ultimate destination? If you wanted to move goods from the central riverlands to the kingsroad, are you then going to trudge all the way north to an even more sparsely populated region then where you came from? Or are you going to trudge it south all the way to the Saltpans or Maidenpool that you could have gotten to much easier and far more cheaply by running down either the Blue or Green Forks?

Sorry, but facts are facts: the crossing connects one part of the riverlands to another, so if anything the Freys are getting a piece of the regional trade, but not the contintental or intercontinental trade that is bringing real wealth to other parts of the kingdom.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, as not all Lords are going to control the same amount of the River. We know the Freys control lands on both the Green and Blue Fork, we know that they are the furthest House North in the Riverlands and their lands go quite far south (with Arwood Frey going to Darry as he is policing his grandfather's lands)

Very good, so the vast majority of Frey wealth is coming from their land holdings, not the crossing. Again, at best the crossing is moving money around within the Frey domain, but it is not bringing substantial wealth from outside sources, which is the principal way that trade enriches houses.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Nobody claims it was more lucrative 300 years ago. Not one source in the series makes that claim, you have invented that purely from looking at a map with little detail. 

We can see for ourselves that this would be the case, even if the POVs in the book are still clinging to Frey history. The region has been stable and at peace since the Conquest, so the crossing has little value as a military asset. The kingsroad is moving trade up and down the continent, bypassing the crossing entirely, so the Freys are not tapping into the main source of wealth-generation -- they are getting a piece of the side action.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm sorry, but that is bullshit. They are quite clearly stated to be the most powerful Riverland vassal House during the War of the Five Kings, there is zero evidence that they had that status during the Blackfyre Rebellions, the Dance of the Dragons, Aegon's conquest or the reign of House Hoare. 

Please provide evidence that their position is diminishing as this runs contradictory to everything that we have been told about them in the series. 

For the nth time, I am not saying they are not a wealthy and powerful house. I am saying that the crossing is no longer the primary source of that wealth and power.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

But it is not just stated by a POV, it is stated by the author himself in the Appendix. There is no reasons for him to lie to the reader, he does not even have to mention their wealth, it is a lie for the sake of it. This is a conspiracy for the sake of a conspiracy. 

The appendix merely repeats the history of House Frey as understood throughout the realm. And sorry, I should have checked earlier, but none of the appendices in my books say that the Freys get their wealth from the crossing. The only sources we have for that piece of information are Catelyn and Yandel (more on Dunk in a minute), and as for Yandel...

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where does he say that? 

There is zero evidence that the Twins were more profitable before the Targaryens showed up, none whatsoever. 

"Notable amongst them was the puissant knight, Lord Forrest Frey, who had once been a suitor for Rhaenyra's hand. The Freys were not an old house. They had risen to prominence some six hundred years ago, their line originating from a petty lord who raised a rickety wooden bridge across the narrowest part of the Green Fork. But as their wealth and influence grew, so did the Crossing. And soon the castle grew from a single tower that overlooked the bridge to two formidable towers that bracketed the river between them. These two keeps, now called the Twins, are amongst the strongest in the realm."

Given that we have no idea when the second castle was built you can't claim they stopped being profitable pre Targ. 

What seems to be pretty clear is that their current standing, as the most powerful vassal of Riverrun, was not their standing when Aegon conquered. They have grown stronger, not weaker, since the realm became united. 

...lol, your own quote belies your point. "...as their wealth and influence grew, so did the Crossing." So if we take any of this as gospel truth rather than Yandel's understanding of history, it is the Frey wealth from other sources that subsidizes the crossing, not the other way around.

As for Dunk, I don't recall what he says about the Freys, but the fact is he is an uneducated hedge knight who would also simply repeat what he has heard. The history of the Freys has wealth coming from the crossing, but everything is different now.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Exactly my point. The Tully's are going to have a fair idea how much traffic and how much revenue the  crossing generates.  The Tully's believing they are wealthy means there is a strong chance that it is true. 

eh? I have no idea what you are getting at here. Our primary sources for the Freys wealth is not Hoster Tully, it is

• the author in the appendix
• Cat in a private conversation with her son
• Dunk and others in the Mystery Knight before Hoster was even born
• Maester Yandel

So then why is his daughter so sure that the bridge generates a significant amount of wealth?

We don't know what Hoster knows or does not know about the revenue from the crossing. But there are only two possibilities: either he is collecting a portion of the revenues, in which case he would have his men on site making sure Walder is not cheating, or he collects a tax based fixed assets like lands and other holdings, in which case Hoster does not know what revenues are coming from the bridge or any other source, nor would he care. Either way, Walder is most definitely not overpaying his taxes just to maintain a charade of wealth and power.

And even if Hoster is tracking income from the bridge, it probably is no greater or less than it's been for the last 200 years.

Again, Catelyn is only repeating the history of house Frey, which was accurate until peace and new trade routes emerged to diminish the importance of the crossing.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Freys have never existed in a time when there was multiple petty kings in the Riverlands. 

No? How about Lucifer Justman, Marq Mudd, Robert Vance, Petry Mallister, Lady Jeyne Nutt, Addam Rivers, Pate of Fairmarket, Lymond Fisher and the half dozen or so more mentioned in the World Book that rose up against the Storm Kings in the three centuries before the Hoares took over roughly 80 years BC?

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Ran revealed that the North would reularly raid the South during winter before the Targs, so the dangers were far greater to that area than they currently are. 

Yeah, before the Targs. So the Crossing would have benefited greatly from those refugees. After the Conquest, when the history of the realm is crystal clear, there are no reports of northern raiders in the winter.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is a lack of ports on the West coast, most of the major settlements centrally or eastern located in the North and the Ironborn regularly pirate, even under the Targs. The Road makes a safer, if slower alternative and crossing at the Twins,for whatever modest fee is charged, is an option some merchants may choose to make. 

GRRM has given understandable reasons why travelling by road may well be preferred.

Yes, a lack of ports on the west coast, particularly north of the Iron Islands. If you'll note, there is also a lack of ports in the Bite or any other eastern shore that is even close to the Twins. So any trade coming from the west is not going to cross at the Twins, giving up x percent to the Freys, then continue overland either north to White Harbor or south to Saltpans or Maidenpool when there is a high-speed, low-cost conveyance straight to the principal markets in the area. Traders do not purposefully follow the slowest, most expensive path to the money, the choose the quickest, easiest path every time and that path is most definitely not the crossing, it is the forks.

No, he has given no reason at all. POVs have given their reasons, but they are clearly faulty -- as is the case with many POVs.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You keep on saying that without using any evidence from the books to back this up.

The facts on the page back it up. No reason for anything but local or regional trade to use the crossing, which merely circulates the existing wealth in the area rather than bringing new wealth in.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You don't think the 4,000 men they are able to summon would also lead people into thinking they are rich and powerful? Or the significant lands they own in the Riverlands? Or the large amount of money

So your saying that he can't afford to dress as wealthy as others think of him but he can afford to maintain an expensive bridge in an effort to look richer than he is. That is some bizarre logic right there. 

The Starks have let an entire tower go to ruin for more than a century, the Whents live in a ruin and are still considered wealthy yet according to you the Freys will look poor  if they stop maintaining  a bridge that they are operating on a loss? 

You don't raise men from a bridge; you raise them from lands. Bridges bring in money, which you can use to buy sellswords. We also don't know how or when the Freys acquired all their land. The most logical source would be from the myriad lords and pretenders who needed to cross pre-Conquest -- but since there has been none of that in the past 300 years they have probably done it in the usual fashion, through marriage or when the lines of adjoining houses come to an end.

If the bridge is costing just as much to repair and maintain as it is bringing in in revenue, then it is not contributing any wealth is it.

Whents, Starks and others are not obsessed with being looked down upon by the rest of the realm.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We have no idea what they once were. 

We can make an educated guess using our own noggins and reasoning power, assuming, of course, that one is in possession of such.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So then why would the Tully's be under the impression that they are so wealthy? Medieval tax was a percentage of a Lord's earnings, it was not a flat fee, everyone paying the same amount. 

How do we know they have that impression? The only one who would know is Hoster, and I don't recall him ever mentioning it.

Wrong on taxes. Follow the links I posted to @cpg2016 above. Taxes on goods and commerce were on a percentage basis; taxes on lands and other fixed assets were fixed to the amount of land or assessed value of the structure; taxes on people were flat, which is what led to peasant revolts.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, not every mention. Some times the Freys are simply called rich without their bridge being mentioned. 

Yes, like in the appendices.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Clearly it is. 

Why do you think GRRM has gone to the trouble of having multiple characters reference the bridge as the source of their wealth? What difference does it make where their wealth comes from?

Why does he go through all the trouble having multiple characters reference Dorne's 50,000 spears? Or Cersei/Jaime's involvement in the Arryn murder or the attempt on Bran? Why all the references to Jon as the son of Ned and some commoner?

There are all kinds of things referenced by all kinds of characters that are either proven false or simply don't fit properly into the narrative. This is one of them.

You're making a rookie mistake here: just because a POV believes something does not make it true.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

If Walder Frey and his many children are wearing clothes that are seen as beneath their standing this would be comment worthy. If Walder was so intent on presenting himself as wealthier than he is the first thing he would be doing is dressing the part, it is deception 101. 

And which characters are you referring to? Which people has Cat seen that she has noted their expensive trappings of wealth? Since Cat is the only POV who has interacted with Walder and been at the Twins I presume you have plenty of evidence to support your claim that virtually every other lord she describes is dressed better than Walder. 

Which I disagree with given there is no reason for Cat or the Appendix to lie about this and given the fact that we have zero information on how profitable the tolls even were pre Aegon there is no argument to be made about the tolls being less than what they once were. 

Again, the point about clothes and décor is to dispel this notion that the Freys are so obviously wealthy from the Crossing. There is no text in the book that supports this, least of all their appearance or the state of their halls.

If I ever reread the entire series I'll give you a rundown on what she does or does not notice about people. But again, I never said Walder was dressed in rags, just that if he did have all this extra wealth at his disposal, and since we know he is obsessed over being looked down upon, then it would make sense to make an impression on people with the finery of his court. If he has done this, it is lost on Catelyn Tully.

And as I mentioned, I'd be interested to see the quote from your appendix that states Frey wealth comes from the crossing. None of mine make that claim.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We have no idea what it once was. We only know their status during the era of Hoster/Edmure. 

In fact military wise their present day 4k men seems to suggest they have increased in power since the Dance of the Dragons were we only saw 800. But I'd hardly use this as concrete evidence. 

Again, we can use the facts of history and the present reality to ascertain the truth, which most people on this thread have been able to do.

Did they pull these 4000 men from under the bridge? Men come from lands, not bridges.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Which means that Cat and the Tullys are going to have a fair idea how much trade goes across the Twins and if they think it is the basis of their wealth then it stands to reason that it is. 

Why would Cat know how much wealth the Freys are getting from the bridge? Where do you get the idea that any Tully other than Cat thinks this is the source of their wealth?

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? You are the one making the call that the author lied to the readers in the appendix. I'm just backing up what the books have said, I have not made any call. 

No the appendix does not tell their history, it also gives a present description of their status. 

It was written in a book. There have actually been displays of the Frey's wealth. 

Given that the amount of visitors the Freys have had in Walder's time, it would be no secret if it looked poor. It would be public news. 

Again, post your appendix that says the wealth comes from the crossing. Here is what mine says:

Quote

Game: No mention of House Frey

Clash: "Powerful, wealthy and numerous, the Freys are bannermen to House Tully..."

Storm: "Powerful, wealthy and numerous, the Freys are bannermen to House Tully..."

Feast: "The Freys are bannermen to House Tully..."

Dance: "The Freys are bannermen to House Tully..."

No mention of the Crossing, no mention of the source of their wealth, nothing that you claim to be fact from the author's own words.

You still have not shown a shred of evidence Frey wealth comes primarily from the Crossing. That is the only argument I'm making.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 The North needs food and other goods and similarly the North has goods it would want to sell to the central Riverlands and Westerlands;  and due to its East coast having few ports as well as how notable the dangerous the nearby Iron islands are other options are preferred. Travelling by road is the safer option. 

The north is perfectly capable of growing its own food, and the only thing they have in abundance is trees, which are sacred to the northmen. Most northern goods will come down the kingsroad and a trickle of this will peel off to the east, with only a trickle of that crossing at the Twins rather than heading downriver. As I said, they get a small piece of the continental and inter-continental trade, but it's small potatoes compared to other houses that are sitting on the main trade route.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And the markets in the North? Merchants can have more than one destination, they can't all turn up at Fairmarket and expect to sell all their goods or receive the best prices for those goods. 

What markets? King Robert is amazed at the emptiness of the north -- no people, no towns, no nothing for league upon league. The only major market is White Harbor. So if you were a trader standing at the Green Fork, tell me, would you opt to pay the toll at the bridge, cross overland to the KR, trudge up the causeway for a good two weeks, then overland to White Harbor so you can put your cargo on a ship for Essos? Or would you simple float it down the river to Saltpans, perhaps a week's trip at best, and put it on a ship for Essos?

Traders don't care wear they sell their goods; they just want to turn a profit as quickly as possible. From the Twins, the north is a long, arduous trip to a sparsely populated area that ultimately gives you no greater access to the east than Saltpans and White Harbor, which are a quick (relatively) boat ride downriver. That's the fact.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Many certainly would, but not all. Some would look elsewhere. 

Again that is true, but some would still want to go to the cash rich Westerlands and the central Riverlands. 

lol you keep on mistaking your head cannon for fact. Given the need for food traffic may well increase in winter, we really don't know. 

Of course they are selling them. Merchants would know that grain is most profitable during winter, do you think Littlefinger is the first person to come to this obvious conclusion?

Look elsewhere where? Where in the north are they going to find a more active, vibrant market than White Harbor? As I said before, if there was a major port on the west side of the Bite you would have a point. But there isn't.

So instead of getting to the cash-rich areas of the riverlands at the base of the Trident in a matter of days, they are going spend months crossing over multiple rivers and mounts a good 100 leagues or so, just to reach the other cash-rich area on the other side of the continent? Talk about a poor business model.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol you keep on mistaking your head cannon for fact. Given the need for food traffic may well increase in winter, we really don't know. 

Of course they are selling them. Merchants would know that grain is most profitable during winter, do you think Littlefinger is the first person to come to this obvious conclusion?

lol your obsession with the toll is becoming amusing now. You think that would have much bearing on the decision of merchants to trade in winter. 

And where is all this food coming from? Is anybody growing in winter? Do you think it's easy carting wagons of food over dirt roads with 10 feet of snow on the ground? Rivers, of course, have fast-moving water, which makes them a convenient conduit right up until the temperature drops dramatically -- and even then, it's just as easy to put runners on the hull and sail across the ice. Here are some pictures:

https://fineartamerica.com/featured/frozen-river-with-skaters-and-ice-sailing-elias-stark.html

http://visitvortex.com/magazine/2014-winter-ice-yachting

https://www.pinterest.com/jandisch/iceboats/

It's a recreational sport now, but in days past it would have made a convenient mode of winter transportation.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Literally based on nothing from the books. 

Based on the evidence in the books, but only evident to those who have the critical thinking capabilities to differentiate fact from myth.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Are you under the impression that boats were invented after the silk road? Or that there were no boats before Aegon?

Europeans did not sail past the Cape of Good Hope until 1488. They did not make it all the way to India for another 10 years. The silk road was a combination of land and water routes. The only went overland when they had no other choice. They sailed across the Mediterranean to reach Europe; they did not continue overland through Turkey, over the Balkans, across the Alps and down the Apennines to reach Palermo.

Once the Portuguese discovered the faster, easier way to get to India and points east by sea, the silk road started to dwindle in importance -- that, and the break up of the Turk and Mongol empires.

So the history of the silk road is clear: sea travel, and by extension river travel, is better than overland, and the presence of large, cohesive governments supports lengthy overland trade routes, while their absence causes them to diminish.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

True. Not sure what this has to do with the Freys in Westeros?

The Freys once sat on the primary route for overland trade in the region. Now that the Kingsroad is drawing all of the north-south trade, in essence becoming the Westerosi version of the silk road, the Freys are only getting a piece of the side action -- just like somebody collecting on the silk road would be today.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So why do so many think they are? If they are wealthy, which they obviously are, why has the author continually suggested that the bridge plays a significant roll in this?

What many? We have Catelyn, Yandel and I'll take your word about Dunk. None of these people would have the information to make a definitive statement about where the Freys get their wealth today. Nowhere else in the books is it said that Frey wealth comes from the crossing. Please post if you can find anything.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, that is actually not true. We have never hears of the Freys being called wealthy pre Aegon I. All their mentions of wealth have came afterwards. 

Well, according to your head canon they weren't even wealthy by the Dance of the Dragons. So after more than 400 years of collecting tolls on the bridge, suddenly in the last 150 or so it has turned them into the mightiest house the world has ever seen? (Sorry, but if you keep up with the strawman argument about how destitute I think the Freys are, you'll have to explain why the bridge has made them rich beyond all measure).

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Taxes, dowries, bridge  maintenance, knights basically all the things I previously mentioned. Houses that spend beyond their means go broke, they don't carry on the charade for three centuries. 

So basically, they spend their enormously mind-boggling riches collected from peasant farmers and traders crossing their bridge on the same things that all other houses spend them on, and yet other houses are resplendent with obviously noticeable wealth. And I would surmise that Walder has collected far more in dowries than he has paid out.

And once again, you're the only one who thinks they are carrying on a charade. They are simply letting people believe what they believe, just like the Dornish have been doing for nearly three centuries.

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Cat is one of the most perceptive characters in the book. 

So now Catelyn, who doesn't even bother to notice what other people look like or what kind of hall she is in, is one of your "most perceptive characters in the book"?

 

[Bernie Mac]

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The point is, people accept this notion that the crossing has made the Freys one of the wealthiest houses in the kingdom, but there is no evidence to support this.

Of course there is evidence. Their founder was made a petty lord and given a small bit of land 600 years ago. How do you think they have dramatically increased the size of their lands, paid for the constriction of their two impressive castles, the amount of knights and men at arms they can field. 

The Maesters say it is down to their bridge now if you have some other theory on how they rose in power and can give a decent explanation for why the Maesters would lie about this as well as the reason the author has introduced this storyline  (for example the Dornish number that was mentioned once before it was revealed to be true is actually a pertinent part of the plot) than I am more than happy to hear it. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

All other wealthy people are described by their fine clothes, jewelry, impressive manses and other trappings of wealth even though that is exactly what they would be expected to have. So all I'm saying is that there is no basis on which to conclude that the Freys are indeed wealthy far and above anyone else in the realm.

No, not all other wealthy people for example we know the Tully's are wealthy and they are not described in such a way. 

And in keep in mind that Cat is the POV who visits the Twins. Which people has she described in that manner?

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The Darrys, Whents, Umbers, Ashfords, Butterwells, Dondarrions, Caswells and countless other houses have hosted kings and held tourneys all at great expense, and none of them have a bridge that is said to bring them vast wealth.

Have they all? Prove it. 

"Now my bastards presume to teach me courtesy," Lord Walder complained. "I'll speak any way I like, damn you. I've had three kings to guest in my life, and queens as well, 

Which other lords have hosted royalty that many times in their life in the series. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

Heck, the Caswells are sitting at Bitterbridge and nobody talks about how incredibly wealthy it has made them.

Why would it? Do they charge a toll? Do they have the only bridge to cross the river? Do their lands stretch that far down the river?  The Freys have both of those. Where in the books does it state the Caswells are in a similar position? 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So the clothing issue is a non-starter. It in no way confirms this idea that the Freys are still drawing vast sums of wealth from the crossing.

No one was arguing that it did.  You made a bizarre claim that the Freys are both wanting to appear richer than they really are while using Cat's lack of description on old man Walder's robes as corroborating evidence. 

 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

To what ultimate destination? 

The places I have stated in the last three comments to you. Merchants from the Northern Westerlands, central Riverlands who want to sell goods in the North would access the bridge to get to the Kingsroad while Northern merchants wanting to sell goods in the Northern westerlands and central Riverlands would do the same. They'd save a few weeks of travel. Merchants have been known to do this. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but facts are facts:

I'm sorry but you presented zero facts, you have presented a theory. It is high time you looked up what the word means. Something is not a fact about the authors fictional universe until he says it is and Cat's and the Maester's claim about the bridge being responsible for the Frey's wealth is canon until the author tells us otherwise. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Very good, so the vast majority of Frey wealth is coming from their land holdings, not the crossing. Again, at best the crossing is moving money around within the Frey domain, but it is not bringing substantial wealth from outside sources, which is the principal way that trade enriches houses.

The Maesters and Cat disagree with you and you have offered zero evidence to dispute their claims. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

We can see for ourselves that this would be the case, even if the POVs in the book are still clinging to Frey history. The region has been stable and at peace since the Conquest, so the crossing has little value as a military asset.

Of course it does. Just like the Golden Tooth does, or the Bloody Tooth or the various strongholds littered about the Dornish mountains. Military assets don't disapear in the middle ages because of peace. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The kingsroad is moving trade up and down the continent, bypassing the crossing entirely, so the Freys are not tapping into the main source of wealth-generation -- they are getting a piece of the side action.

Yup. But that route existed before the Targs came and conquered, that would have always been used just as Central Riverland merchants, North Westerland merchants and merchants from the North would have used the bridge as shortcut for as long as it has been in existence. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

For the nth time, I am not saying they are not a wealthy and powerful house.

But you are, your argument is all over the place. Maybe it is the long posts are making your forget what you are saying but when you argue that Cat's lack of description of what Walder is wearing is evidence is important then you are arguing about their wealth. What bearing on the conversation does this lack of description have to do with the Frey's generating their money from a bridge or a magival wishing well? 

Please keep track of what you yourself are saying. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I am saying that the crossing is no longer the primary source of that wealth and power.

So why do you keep on bringing up Walder's clothes? 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The appendix merely repeats the history of House Frey as understood throughout the realm. And sorry, I should have checked earlier, but none of the appendices in my books say that the Freys get their wealth from the crossing. The only sources we have for that piece of information are Catelyn and Yandel (more on Dunk in a minute), and as for Yandel...

Yup. How does that change what I have said. Perhaps if you did not spend so much time arguing the validity of Cat's lack of  a description on the clothing of House Frey as evidence of their lack of wealth I would not have had to source the frequent examples of the Frey's wealth. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

...lol, your own quote belies your point. "...as their wealth and influence grew, so did the Crossing." So if we take any of this as gospel truth rather than Yandel's understanding of history, it is the Frey wealth from other sources that subsidizes the crossing, not the other way around.

eh? Please use some common sense. The Bridge has allowed them to become richer, to have more lands, upgrade their bridge and castles. The bridge is the source of their wealth. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

As for Dunk, I don't recall what he says about the Freys, but the fact is he is an uneducated hedge knight who would also simply repeat what he has heard. The history of the Freys has wealth coming from the crossing, but everything is different now.

Who in the books claims everything is different? 

Why have the Frey's increased in power under Targ rule if everything is different? 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

We don't know what Hoster knows or does not know about the revenue from the crossing. But there are only two possibilities: either he is collecting a portion of the revenues, in which case he would have his men on site making sure Walder is not cheating, or he collects a tax based fixed assets like lands and other holdings, in which case Hoster does not know what revenues are coming from the bridge or any other source, nor would he care. Either way, Walder is most definitely not overpaying his taxes just to maintain a charade of wealth and power.

Well done, only a few pages ago you were arguing that he was. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And even if Hoster is tracking income from the bridge, it probably is no greater or less than it's been for the last 200 years.

Probably? I'm sorry, you are going to have to use some actual evidence from the books if you want to use the word 'probably'. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, Catelyn is only repeating the history of house Frey, which was accurate until peace and new trade routes emerged to diminish the importance of the crossing.

No, she is not. Nothing in her quote alludes to this being in the past, her quote is about the present. Now it is fair if you want to call her wrong but is it outright bullshit to claim that she was not talking about the present. 

Quote

No? How about Lucifer Justman, Marq Mudd, Robert Vance, Petry Mallister, Lady Jeyne Nutt, Addam Rivers, Pate of Fairmarket, Lymond Fisher and the half dozen or so more mentioned in the World Book that rose up against the Storm Kings in the three centuries before the Hoares took over roughly 80 years BC?

None of those were petty kings, they were trying to claim dominion of the Riverlands. 

A dozen pretenders from as many houses would adopt the style of River King or King of the Trident and vow to throw off the yoke of the stormlanders. Some even succeeded...for a fortnight, a moon's turn, even a year. But their thrones were built on mud and sand, and in the end a fresh host would march from Storm's End to topple them and hang the men who'd presumed to sit upon them. Thus ended the brief inglorious reigns of Lucifer Justman (Lucifer the Liar), Marq Mudd (the Mad Bard), Lord Robert Vance, Lord Petyr Mallister, Lady Jeyne Nutt, the bastard king Ser Addam Rivers, the peasant king Pate of Fairmarket, and Ser Lymond Fisher, Knight of Oldstones, along with a dozen more.

You are confused about what a petty king is. The age of the petty king in the Riverlands when their was multiple smaller (petty) kingdoms, the Frey's have pretty much only existed when the Riverlands was one realm. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yeah, before the Targs. So the Crossing would have benefited greatly from those refugees. After the Conquest, when the history of the realm is crystal clear, there are no reports of northern raiders in the winter.

Which is great, that means more merchants are free safe to travel in winter because of the Targs. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

No, he has given no reason at all. POVs have given their reasons, but they are clearly faulty -- as is the case with many POVs.

lol you don't seem to know what 'clearly' means. You wanting to invent a conspiracy theory does not make actual multiple accounts of the Frey's wealth not clear. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The facts on the page back it up. 

No, they don't. By all means quote the facts on the page to back them up, I'm happy to hear actual facts. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

You don't raise men from a bridge; you raise them from lands. 

And how have they increased their lands from the small lands they were given? 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If the bridge is costing just as much to repair and maintain as it is bringing in in revenue, then it is not contributing any wealth is it.

Exactly, so logic dictates that it is more than paying for itself. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Whents, Starks and others are not obsessed with being looked down upon by the rest of the realm.

lol how do you know this about the Whents? We've hardly met a single Whent in the series. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

We can make an educated guess using our own noggins and reasoning power, assuming, of course, that one is in possession of such.

Go on then, use your reasoning power to tell me how much revenue the bridge was bringing in 400 years ago, 300 years ago 200 years ago, 100 years ago and 50 years ago and expain the evidence in the books that led you to your conclusions. 

I'm under the impression that there simply is not enough evidence to say how much but if you think your superior reasoning power can deduce these numbers then go for it. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

How do we know they have that impression? The only one who would know is Hoster, and I don't recall him ever mentioning it.

His daughter does. Where do you think Cat came to this conclusion from? 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Wrong on taxes.

No. I don't disagree with your links, but the Freys are lords, not merchants, and it was common practice in the middle ages for Lords and Barons to negotiate with their Kings/Overlords the percentage of their income that should be taxed. 

Hoster and his predecessors are all going to have a fair idea on how much income the Freys generates, they are going to know if their wealth is what the common perception of it is or if it is lower. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, like in the appendices.

Yup. Had your only argument been that the Freys wealth was not from the bridges but other sources I doubt I even would have taken this topic so seriously but given you have not only said that the Freys wealth is a mirage but tried to use nonsence evidence such as the lack of description of Wader's clothes you have turned this into a discussion worth having. 

 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Why does he go through all the trouble having multiple characters reference Dorne's 50,000 spears?

It is a major plot point. Doran's daughter wants to go to war, but we find out that it is just not possible, Dorne does not have the strength to do so. It is a major plot point of AFFC and before AFFC we are only told once about their 50k spears. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

Or Cersei/Jaime's involvement in the Arryn murder or the attempt on Bran? 

No one claimed they knew this as fact. They were the main suspects. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

There are all kinds of things referenced by all kinds of characters that are either proven false or simply don't fit properly into the narrative. This is one of them.

No, it is not. All you have done is look at a map that is barely detailed and jumped to a conclusion which contradicts what is written in the books. 

I'm sorry but until Cat's claim is proven to be false, like the claim about 50k spears, then it remains canon. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

You're making a rookie mistake here: just because a POV believes something does not make it true.

Sure. Multiple characters, including the Appendix note the Freys wealth but that should all be ignored because Cat did not describe what Walder was wearing. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, the point about clothes and décor is to dispel this notion that the Freys are so obviously wealthy from the Crossing. There is no text in the book that supports this, least of all their appearance or the state of their halls.

What evidence? A lack of description is not evidence. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If I ever reread the entire series I'll give you a rundown on what she does or does not notice about people.

So you admit your conclusion is flawed? That you jumped to conclusions about Cat's POV as you pointed out that almost every character is commented on the riches of their of garments and jewellery. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But again, I never said Walder was dressed in rags, just that if he did have all this extra wealth at his disposal, and since we know he is obsessed over being looked down upon,

But not about being rich? His family is looked down because of its age and because of the the bridge they use to increase their wealth

No one looks down on the Freys for their garments. That is another conclusion you have created out of nowhere. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

then it would make sense to make an impression on people with the finery of his court. If he has done this, it is lost on Catelyn Tully.

The information that the Freys are rich first comes to the reader from Cat. Nothing she sees at the Twins makes her doubt her thoughts, that is hardly evidence that they are poor. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And as I mentioned, I'd be interested to see the quote from your appendix that states Frey wealth comes from the crossing. None of mine make that claim.

The author in the Appendix has made it clear that they are wealthy while you, in many posts in this topic, have concluded that they are not, that it is all smoke and mirrors. Here are some of the comments from you on this subject that I have disagreed with

Maybe they are not quite so wealthy as they are perceived to be

 But once the dragons united the 7K and built the kingsroad, income from the crossing diminished. So, like the Dornish spears and (some say) Lannister gold, Frey wealth is something of a chimera.

So the Freys are not likely to be nearly as wealthy as people think they are.

Mayhaps the Frey wealth was once considerable, but time and circumstances has diminished it?

I have been more than clear what I have been discussing with you. At no point did I claim the the appendix stated their wealth came from the bridge. I pointed out, in your many arguments that the Frey wealth is imagined, that the author gives their status in the appendix, not the source of their wealth, Cat and others inform the reader of that. 

Look at this very page, you still continue to argue that Cat not describing what Walder is wearing is evidence that he is not as rich as Cat thinks he is.Your arguments are all over the place, in some paragraphs you complain that you are only talking about the modern day incomes of the bridge while in other paragraphs you defend your claims that Cat not describing what Walder is wearing is evidence that he is not as rich as some people think he is. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Did they pull these 4000 men from under the bridge? Men come from lands, not bridges.

Do you think they had 4,000 men 600 years ago when the founder of House Frey was made a petty lord? No, they've obviously grown in power and stature and we know that it was House Hoare who granted them this extra lands and power and it seems unlikely this was given freely to them by the Targs or the Tullys. It seems they have made themselves stronger and the Maesters in the World book explains that their increased power, wealth and growth came from the bridge (not a benefactor) 

And like I have theorised on this subject, one of the ways the Freys bridge has made them more powerful is it gives them a constant revenue stream while some Houses (I'm guessing such as the once significant Charltons) have overspent in Winter and been forced to sell their lands (like the Westerlings have had to do in recent generations) and the Freys have had the excess cash to buy it. 

While most Lords are asset rich in the middle ages, not all of them were cash rich and being short would often lead them to selling their lands to other nobles and the Freys would be one of the few nobles to be in a position to pay for such lands and increase their size. 

This also makes sense as the Freys were originally only given the land of the crossing and by the time  of the current series those same lands stretch all the way to the Blue Fork. It would also be another reason why other nobles resent the Freys (other newer Houses such as the Whents are not looked down in the same way) as they would be profiting from the poor fortune of nobles. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Why would Cat know how much wealth the Freys are getting from the bridge?

Her father is the Lord of the Riverlands and he is not exactly secretive when it comes to his thoughts on House Frey. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Where do you get the idea that any Tully other than Cat thinks this is the source of their wealth?

Fair enough, explain how Cat came to this conclusion. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

You still have not shown a shred of evidence Frey wealth comes primarily from the Crossing. That is the only argument I'm making.

The Green Fork ran swift and deep here, but the Freys had spanned it many centuries past and grown rich off the coin men paid them to cross. 

Your turn, show a shred of evidence from the book that it does not come from the bridge. 

 

And no, your arguments have been all over the place, you have claimed that in some posts in this topic that the Freys are not wealthy, in others that are pretending to be rich to look more powerful than they are, in another post you claimed that Hoster was happy to let the realm think they were richer than what they were. 

You might want to read back on the multitude of posts you have made in this thread as you have made more than one argument about the Freys. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The north is perfectly capable of growing its own food, 

Not from what we have seen. We know that in previous winters food has been sent from the South. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

What markets? King Robert is amazed at the emptiness of the north -- no people, no towns, no nothing for league upon league. 

The North has a population in its millions and we know that in Winter there are places like Wintertown which see a congregation of people. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Traders don't care wear they sell their goods; they just want to turn a profit as quickly as possible. 

Well that is a lie. If one town has 50 people selling the same product as them and another town has no one selling that product than they are going to want to target the place they will get the best price and not be in danger of not selling out. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Look elsewhere where? Where in the north are they going to find a more active, vibrant market than White Harbor?

Why would it have to be more? Do you not think there is going to be a need for food and goods at Wintertown and other Northern settlements? 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

As I said before, if there was a major port on the west side of the Bite you would have a point. But there isn't.

 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So instead of getting to the cash-rich areas of the riverlands at the base of the Trident in a matter of days, they are going spend months crossing over multiple rivers and mounts a good 100 leagues or so, just to reach the other cash-rich area on the other side of the continent? Talk about a poor business model.

lol do you think all merchants target the one easy place to get to? The North has a population of millions, merchants are going to want to make money of those people just as much as they would want to make money from anyone else. However the cash rich places are also going to have more competition. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And where is all this food coming from? Is anybody growing in winter?

 Likely some are. But the main supplier would be farmers keeping more in reserve. This is something that is pretty much explained in the books. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

Do you think it's easy carting wagons of food over dirt roads with 10 feet of snow on the ground?

No, where in my post did I claim it was easy? Are you under the impression that people only did things that were easy and if something was not easy then abandoned? 

 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Once the Portuguese discovered the faster, easier way to get to India and points east by sea, the silk road started to dwindle in importance -- that, and the break up of the Turk and Mongol empires.

Has Westeros in the last 300 years discovered boat travel?

Why does the North have few ports on its West coast? If anything we know that the western coast of the north has seen a decrease in its population not an increase which further rubbishes your theory of their being a significant increase of sea travel to the western coast of the North. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So the history of the silk road is clear: sea travel, and by extension river travel, is better than overland, and the presence of large, cohesive governments supports lengthy overland trade routes, while their absence causes them to diminish.

No idea what argument you are making here. Do you think boats are a recent invention in Westeros?

Your theory is that the Freys made more money from their bridge 300 years ago so I have no idea why you are bringing boats into the conversation unless you are under the impression that boats did not exist 300 years ago. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The Freys once sat on the primary route for overland trade in the region.

No they did not. Their position on the map has not changed in 300 years. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

Now that the Kingsroad is drawing all of the north-south trade,

Prove it. Provide a quote in the books to back this up. Prove that the characters who live in this world are wrong and you know better. 

 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

What many? We have Catelyn, Yandel and I'll take your word about Dunk. None of these people would have the information to make a definitive statement about where the Freys get their wealth today.

Cat, as the daughter of the ruler of the Riverlands, would. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

Nowhere else in the books is it said that Frey wealth comes from the crossing. Please post if you can find anything.

lol nowhere else apart from the sources I have already given.  Do you need a random conversation between Doran and  a sand snake to segway to how the bridge a thousand miles away for you to believe it. 

The author does not need to constantly go over something that is meaningless now, the Freys have long been established as a wealthy House. That is canon, until evidence comes in a later book that Walder, Hoster and all the previous Lords Frey and Tully were in some bizarre conspiracy to pretend the Freys are richer than they are you are just going to have to accept it. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, according to your head canon they weren't even wealthy by the Dance of the Dragons.

No, never actually said that. It helps if you comment on what I actually wrote rather than jumping to conclusions on statements not made.  I made a point that the numbers we see them raise in Dance of the Dragons is a less than a quarter we see them raise in AGOT. At no point did I claim they were not wealthy during the Dance.  Please comment on arguments I have made rather than arguments you think I have made.  

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

So after more than 400 years of collecting tolls on the bridge, suddenly in the last 150 or so it has turned them into the mightiest house the world has ever seen?

lol who has ever called them mightier than the Hightowers, the Lannisters, Royces? 

We know they are the most powerful vassal House in the Riverlands, nothing more. 

 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So basically, they spend their enormously mind-boggling riches collected from peasant farmers and traders crossing their bridge on the same things that all other houses spend them on, and yet other houses are resplendent with obviously noticeable wealth. And I would surmise that Walder has collected far more in dowries than he has paid out.

As are the Freys but you ignore the examples when given to you and time and time again go back to the weak sauce conclusion of Cat not mentioning what Walder is wearing as your irrefutable evidence that the Freys are not as rich as the author claims they are. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And once again, you're the only one who thinks they are carrying on a charade.

I don't believe that, you are the one who came up with this. You are the one convinced the author decided to fool the readers in the appendix ab out the source of their wealth. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

They are simply letting people believe what they believe, just like the Dornish have been doing for nearly three centuries.

Except there is not one Frey in the series boasting about their wealth. That is other characters and the author himself in the appendix. 

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So now Catelyn, who doesn't even bother to notice what other people look like or what kind of hall she is in, is one of your "most perceptive characters in the book"?

Yes, obviously. The POV character who most mentions the appearance and dress of others in the series is Sansa, not because she is particularly perceptive but because she is a 12 year old girl and, sorry to generalise, 12 year old girls are more interested in the appearance and dress of other people. 

Cat, Lannister brothers aside, is a perceptive person, she realises how to get the Freys to agree, she understands the danger of sending Theon back home, she counsels the pragmatism of peace both in AGOT (when it would only make Robb and Edmure stronger as they bide their time) and ASOS when she realises it is a lost cause, with the Baratheons she quickly concludes how pointless her presence there is, she is the one who explains to the reader the consequences of Robb's marriage to Jeyne. 

Cat clearly is a perceptive character, she is very much the Cassandra of the series, doomed to be ignored when she is infact giving good advice. 

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course there is evidence. Their founder was made a petty lord and given a small bit of land 600 years ago. How do you think they have dramatically increased the size of their lands, paid for the constriction of their two impressive castles, the amount of knights and men at arms they can field. 

The Maesters say it is down to their bridge now if you have some other theory on how they rose in power and can give a decent explanation for why the Maesters would lie about this as well as the reason the author has introduced this storyline  (for example the Dornish number that was mentioned once before it was revealed to be true is actually a pertinent part of the plot) than I am more than happy to hear it. 

No, not all other wealthy people for example we know the Tully's are wealthy and they are not described in such a way. 

And in keep in mind that Cat is the POV who visits the Twins. Which people has she described in that manner?

Have they all? Prove it. 

"Now my bastards presume to teach me courtesy," Lord Walder complained. "I'll speak any way I like, damn you. I've had three kings to guest in my life, and queens as well, 

Which other lords have hosted royalty that many times in their life in the series. 

Why would it? Do they charge a toll? Do they have the only bridge to cross the river? Do their lands stretch that far down the river?  The Freys have both of those. Where in the books does it state the Caswells are in a similar position? 

No one was arguing that it did.  You made a bizarre claim that the Freys are both wanting to appear richer than they really are while using Cat's lack of description on old man Walder's robes as corroborating evidence. 

 

The places I have stated in the last three comments to you. Merchants from the Northern Westerlands, central Riverlands who want to sell goods in the North would access the bridge to get to the Kingsroad while Northern merchants wanting to sell goods in the Northern westerlands and central Riverlands would do the same. They'd save a few weeks of travel. Merchants have been known to do this. 

I'm sorry but you presented zero facts, you have presented a theory. It is high time you looked up what the word means. Something is not a fact about the authors fictional universe until he says it is and Cat's and the Maester's claim about the bridge being responsible for the Frey's wealth is canon until the author tells us otherwise. 

The Maesters and Cat disagree with you and you have offered zero evidence to dispute their claims. 

Of course it does. Just like the Golden Tooth does, or the Bloody Tooth or the various strongholds littered about the Dornish mountains. Military assets don't disapear in the middle ages because of peace. 

Yup. But that route existed before the Targs came and conquered, that would have always been used just as Central Riverland merchants, North Westerland merchants and merchants from the North would have used the bridge as shortcut for as long as it has been in existence. 

But you are, your argument is all over the place. Maybe it is the long posts are making your forget what you are saying but when you argue that Cat's lack of description of what Walder is wearing is evidence is important then you are arguing about their wealth. What bearing on the conversation does this lack of description have to do with the Frey's generating their money from a bridge or a magival wishing well? 

Please keep track of what you yourself are saying. 

So why do you keep on bringing up Walder's clothes? 

Yup. How does that change what I have said. Perhaps if you did not spend so much time arguing the validity of Cat's lack of  a description on the clothing of House Frey as evidence of their lack of wealth I would not have had to source the frequent examples of the Frey's wealth. 

eh? Please use some common sense. The Bridge has allowed them to become richer, to have more lands, upgrade their bridge and castles. The bridge is the source of their wealth. 

Who in the books claims everything is different? 

Why have the Frey's increased in power under Targ rule if everything is different? 

Well done, only a few pages ago you were arguing that he was. 

Probably? I'm sorry, you are going to have to use some actual evidence from the books if you want to use the word 'probably'. 

No, she is not. Nothing in her quote alludes to this being in the past, her quote is about the present. Now it is fair if you want to call her wrong but is it outright bullshit to claim that she was not talking about the present. 

None of those were petty kings, they were trying to claim dominion of the Riverlands. 

A dozen pretenders from as many houses would adopt the style of River King or King of the Trident and vow to throw off the yoke of the stormlanders. Some even succeeded...for a fortnight, a moon's turn, even a year. But their thrones were built on mud and sand, and in the end a fresh host would march from Storm's End to topple them and hang the men who'd presumed to sit upon them. Thus ended the brief inglorious reigns of Lucifer Justman (Lucifer the Liar), Marq Mudd (the Mad Bard), Lord Robert Vance, Lord Petyr Mallister, Lady Jeyne Nutt, the bastard king Ser Addam Rivers, the peasant king Pate of Fairmarket, and Ser Lymond Fisher, Knight of Oldstones, along with a dozen more.

You are confused about what a petty king is. The age of the petty king in the Riverlands when their was multiple smaller (petty) kingdoms, the Frey's have pretty much only existed when the Riverlands was one realm. 

Which is great, that means more merchants are free safe to travel in winter because of the Targs. 

lol you don't seem to know what 'clearly' means. You wanting to invent a conspiracy theory does not make actual multiple accounts of the Frey's wealth not clear. 

No, they don't. By all means quote the facts on the page to back them up, I'm happy to hear actual facts. 

And how have they increased their lands from the small lands they were given? 

Exactly, so logic dictates that it is more than paying for itself. 

lol how do you know this about the Whents? We've hardly met a single Whent in the series. 

Go on then, use your reasoning power to tell me how much revenue the bridge was bringing in 400 years ago, 300 years ago 200 years ago, 100 years ago and 50 years ago and expain the evidence in the books that led you to your conclusions. 

I'm under the impression that there simply is not enough evidence to say how much but if you think your superior reasoning power can deduce these numbers then go for it. 

His daughter does. Where do you think Cat came to this conclusion from? 

No. I don't disagree with your links, but the Freys are lords, not merchants, and it was common practice in the middle ages for Lords and Barons to negotiate with their Kings/Overlords the percentage of their income that should be taxed. 

Hoster and his predecessors are all going to have a fair idea on how much income the Freys generates, they are going to know if their wealth is what the common perception of it is or if it is lower. 

Yup. Had your only argument been that the Freys wealth was not from the bridges but other sources I doubt I even would have taken this topic so seriously but given you have not only said that the Freys wealth is a mirage but tried to use nonsence evidence such as the lack of description of Wader's clothes you have turned this into a discussion worth having. 

 

It is a major plot point. Doran's daughter wants to go to war, but we find out that it is just not possible, Dorne does not have the strength to do so. It is a major plot point of AFFC and before AFFC we are only told once about their 50k spears. 

No one claimed they knew this as fact. They were the main suspects. 

No, it is not. All you have done is look at a map that is barely detailed and jumped to a conclusion which contradicts what is written in the books. 

I'm sorry but until Cat's claim is proven to be false, like the claim about 50k spears, then it remains canon. 

Sure. Multiple characters, including the Appendix note the Freys wealth but that should all be ignored because Cat did not describe what Walder was wearing. 

What evidence? A lack of description is not evidence. 

So you admit your conclusion is flawed? That you jumped to conclusions about Cat's POV as you pointed out that almost every character is commented on the riches of their of garments and jewellery. 

But not about being rich? His family is looked down because of its age and because of the the bridge they use to increase their wealth

No one looks down on the Freys for their garments. That is another conclusion you have created out of nowhere. 

The information that the Freys are rich first comes to the reader from Cat. Nothing she sees at the Twins makes her doubt her thoughts, that is hardly evidence that they are poor. 

The author in the Appendix has made it clear that they are wealthy while you, in many posts in this topic, have concluded that they are not, that it is all smoke and mirrors. Here are some of the comments from you on this subject that I have disagreed with

Maybe they are not quite so wealthy as they are perceived to be

 But once the dragons united the 7K and built the kingsroad, income from the crossing diminished. So, like the Dornish spears and (some say) Lannister gold, Frey wealth is something of a chimera.

So the Freys are not likely to be nearly as wealthy as people think they are.

Mayhaps the Frey wealth was once considerable, but time and circumstances has diminished it?

I have been more than clear what I have been discussing with you. At no point did I claim the the appendix stated their wealth came from the bridge. I pointed out, in your many arguments that the Frey wealth is imagined, that the author gives their status in the appendix, not the source of their wealth, Cat and others inform the reader of that. 

Look at this very page, you still continue to argue that Cat not describing what Walder is wearing is evidence that he is not as rich as Cat thinks he is.Your arguments are all over the place, in some paragraphs you complain that you are only talking about the modern day incomes of the bridge while in other paragraphs you defend your claims that Cat not describing what Walder is wearing is evidence that he is not as rich as some people think he is. 

Do you think they had 4,000 men 600 years ago when the founder of House Frey was made a petty lord? No, they've obviously grown in power and stature and we know that it was House Hoare who granted them this extra lands and power and it seems unlikely this was given freely to them by the Targs or the Tullys. It seems they have made themselves stronger and the Maesters in the World book explains that their increased power, wealth and growth came from the bridge (not a benefactor) 

And like I have theorised on this subject, one of the ways the Freys bridge has made them more powerful is it gives them a constant revenue stream while some Houses (I'm guessing such as the once significant Charltons) have overspent in Winter and been forced to sell their lands (like the Westerlings have had to do in recent generations) and the Freys have had the excess cash to buy it. 

While most Lords are asset rich in the middle ages, not all of them were cash rich and being short would often lead them to selling their lands to other nobles and the Freys would be one of the few nobles to be in a position to pay for such lands and increase their size. 

This also makes sense as the Freys were originally only given the land of the crossing and by the time  of the current series those same lands stretch all the way to the Blue Fork. It would also be another reason why other nobles resent the Freys (other newer Houses such as the Whents are not looked down in the same way) as they would be profiting from the poor fortune of nobles. 

Her father is the Lord of the Riverlands and he is not exactly secretive when it comes to his thoughts on House Frey. 

Fair enough, explain how Cat came to this conclusion. 

The Green Fork ran swift and deep here, but the Freys had spanned it many centuries past and grown rich off the coin men paid them to cross. 

Your turn, show a shred of evidence from the book that it does not come from the bridge. 

 

And no, your arguments have been all over the place, you have claimed that in some posts in this topic that the Freys are not wealthy, in others that are pretending to be rich to look more powerful than they are, in another post you claimed that Hoster was happy to let the realm think they were richer than what they were. 

You might want to read back on the multitude of posts you have made in this thread as you have made more than one argument about the Freys. 

Not from what we have seen. We know that in previous winters food has been sent from the South. 

The North has a population in its millions and we know that in Winter there are places like Wintertown which see a congregation of people. 

Well that is a lie. If one town has 50 people selling the same product as them and another town has no one selling that product than they are going to want to target the place they will get the best price and not be in danger of not selling out. 

Why would it have to be more? Do you not think there is going to be a need for food and goods at Wintertown and other Northern settlements? 

 

lol do you think all merchants target the one easy place to get to? The North has a population of millions, merchants are going to want to make money of those people just as much as they would want to make money from anyone else. However the cash rich places are also going to have more competition. 

 Likely some are. But the main supplier would be farmers keeping more in reserve. This is something that is pretty much explained in the books. 

No, where in my post did I claim it was easy? Are you under the impression that people only did things that were easy and if something was not easy then abandoned? 

 

Has Westeros in the last 300 years discovered boat travel?

Why does the North have few ports on its West coast? If anything we know that the western coast of the north has seen a decrease in its population not an increase which further rubbishes your theory of their being a significant increase of sea travel to the western coast of the North. 

No idea what argument you are making here. Do you think boats are a recent invention in Westeros?

Your theory is that the Freys made more money from their bridge 300 years ago so I have no idea why you are bringing boats into the conversation unless you are under the impression that boats did not exist 300 years ago. 

No they did not. Their position on the map has not changed in 300 years. 

Prove it. Provide a quote in the books to back this up. Prove that the characters who live in this world are wrong and you know better. 

 

Cat, as the daughter of the ruler of the Riverlands, would. 

lol nowhere else apart from the sources I have already given.  Do you need a random conversation between Doran and  a sand snake to segway to how the bridge a thousand miles away for you to believe it. 

The author does not need to constantly go over something that is meaningless now, the Freys have long been established as a wealthy House. That is canon, until evidence comes in a later book that Walder, Hoster and all the previous Lords Frey and Tully were in some bizarre conspiracy to pretend the Freys are richer than they are you are just going to have to accept it. 

No, never actually said that. It helps if you comment on what I actually wrote rather than jumping to conclusions on statements not made.  I made a point that the numbers we see them raise in Dance of the Dragons is a less than a quarter we see them raise in AGOT. At no point did I claim they were not wealthy during the Dance.  Please comment on arguments I have made rather than arguments you think I have made.  

lol who has ever called them mightier than the Hightowers, the Lannisters, Royces? 

We know they are the most powerful vassal House in the Riverlands, nothing more. 

 

As are the Freys but you ignore the examples when given to you and time and time again go back to the weak sauce conclusion of Cat not mentioning what Walder is wearing as your irrefutable evidence that the Freys are not as rich as the author claims they are. 

I don't believe that, you are the one who came up with this. You are the one convinced the author decided to fool the readers in the appendix ab out the source of their wealth. 

Except there is not one Frey in the series boasting about their wealth. That is other characters and the author himself in the appendix. 

Yes, obviously. The POV character who most mentions the appearance and dress of others in the series is Sansa, not because she is particularly perceptive but because she is a 12 year old girl and, sorry to generalise, 12 year old girls are more interested in the appearance and dress of other people. 

Cat, Lannister brothers aside, is a perceptive person, she realises how to get the Freys to agree, she understands the danger of sending Theon back home, she counsels the pragmatism of peace both in AGOT (when it would only make Robb and Edmure stronger as they bide their time) and ASOS when she realises it is a lost cause, with the Baratheons she quickly concludes how pointless her presence there is, she is the one who explains to the reader the consequences of Robb's marriage to Jeyne. 

Cat clearly is a perceptive character, she is very much the Cassandra of the series, doomed to be ignored when she is infact giving good advice. 

Sorry, tl;dr. But thanks for sharing.