Leaf=Lif

[Lady Barbrey]

While I have seen many posts on the series and Norse mythology, I haven't seen this particular reference articulated so thought I would throw it out there.  The name Leaf seems so apropos to a Child of the Forest, I didn't give it a second thought.

However, Norse mythology is based on cyclical eschatology, the World ends at Ragnarok but then revives along with a few humans that survive, and this happens over and over again.

The two people that survive the current cycle, or the past one, are called Lif and Lifthrasur, with Lif being the female.  They hide in a forest, or, some speculate, the World Tree, and thus are reborn from the trees, tree-women and tree-men. Literally, they are 'children of the forest.

Lif sounds exactly like Leaf to pronounce.  She is the first named Child of the Forest and seems important.  She has wandered the World for hundreds or possibly thousands of years.

But I don't like to get too exact with comparisons to myth; she might not be meant to be the First being, but just to draw our attention to what she represents.  The sense is pervasive, however, that the Norse myth we know about already met its Ragnarok, and this is a new cycle ( a song of ice and fire, not the song), with the first beings literally children of the forest, born of trees, Lif and Lifthrasur.

I think It's a clever conceit and gives us a glimpse into how Martin conceives his world and its beginnings.  A cycle of our world but the stories and myths and histories played out in new constellations with new faces and events and "not quite" fitting what we know of them.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

I have seen other comparisons to Norse mythology and I think you are right on the money. Your observation goes hand in hand with the similarities between Yggdrasil and the Weirwood trees/network,  Ravens/Crows and Huginn and Muninn and the Old Gods and Norse/Pagan symbolism it fits perfectly. 

I know there are many cultures that have mythology that focuses on cycles but I always felt the Yggdrasil connection to the Weirwoods and ASOIAF in general was especially strong. There may not be the different realms present in Norse religion but what you mentioned about a few survivors and the way the Weirwoods are able to see all that goes on etc etc seems so similar to the idea of a world tree.

I have not seen the Lif -- Leaf comparison before - very nice.

[Lady Barbrey]

12 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I have seen other comparisons to Norse mythology and I think you are right on the money. Your observation goes hand in hand with the similarities between Yggdrasil and the Weirwood trees/network,  Ravens/Crows and Huginn and Muninn and the Old Gods and Norse/Pagan symbolism it fits perfectly. 

I know there are many cultures that have mythology that focuses on cycles but I always felt the Yggdrasil connection to the Weirwoods and ASOIAF in general was especially strong. There may not be the different realms present in Norse religion but what you mentioned about a few survivors and the way the Weirwoods are able to see all that goes on etc etc seems so similar to the idea of a world tree.

I have not seen the Lif -- Leaf comparison before - very nice.

Yes it ties it altogether in a way, the idea of the only survivors from the Old World reborn to this one from a tree - Yggdrasil -after Ragnarok.  Yggdrasil becomes the oldest god, and branches into the weir network from there.  I really like what George has done with it fantasy-wise.

[bemused]

Very nice, Lady Barbrey.. I hadn't thought about Leaf before

22 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

But I don't like to get too exact with comparisons to myth; she might not be meant to be the First being, but just to draw our attention to what she represents.

My sentiments exactly re: the bold. It's something I stressed over and over in my (now) ancient thread about Val and Tormund. What started me off was when I realised both Val and Dalla seemed to be wordplay on Vala .. 

Quote

A vǫlva or völva (Old Norse and Icelandic, respectively; plural forms vǫlur and völvur, sometimes anglicized vala; also spákona or spækona) is a female shaman and seer in Norse religion and a recurring motif in Norse mythology.

..a role I think they play , but of course with whatever differences George has devised. Likewise, with Tormund , Speaker-to-gods describes the role of the Norse chieftain/priest, speaking to the gods for the people, instead of speaking for the gods to the people.

 

[Seams]

Very nice! This helps with a wordplay connection I never quite understood - "leaf" and "flea," as in Flea Bottom. 

People like Dunk and Davos and HotPie and Lommy Greenhands are always described as orphans from the streets of Flea Bottom. Every single one has no parents and no idea who his parents were. I think GRRM is giving us people who are reborn from the earth, in a sense. (Maybe "street" is even wordplay on "reset"?) Except the Flea Bottom earth may be different from the Children of the Forest earth. 

Because the second word in Flea Bottom seems to be wordplay on "tomb" (see also Tobho Mott) the idea of linking death and rebirth is strongly implied. 

The bowls of brown often contain mystery meat that might include human flesh - singer stew, as Tyrion calls it. Compared to the bowl of weirwood paste (paste = past?) fed to Bran, I think we are seeing a special recipe for rebirth, served in a bowl. Dunk's early memory from Flea Bottom is of "the cook," speculating about who Dunk's father might have been.

You've set off a chain reaction in me, now. Maybe cooks are like alchemists and maeges, stirring up the cauldrons of brown, mixing in new ingredients and deciding what to scoop out and put in the customer's bowl. The Flea Bottom characters don't have parents because they are reborn from the primordial ooze in the pot shops with cooks instead of parents.

Now I want to take a look at other cooks in the series . . . Tyrion likes to play cyvasse with the cook on the doomed ship (until the storm when that cook dies horribly). Dolorous Edd cooks up a big batch of hard-boiled eggs in a pot filled with - inexplicably - spiced wine. Thoros of Myr feeds Brienne after she fights Rorge and her face is bitten by Biter. Davos eats sister stew that is different from other sister stews, prepared by the granddaughter of Lord Godric of Sweetsister. Are these all variations on bowls of rebirth stew? 

[Curled Finger]

On 10/18/2018 at 2:16 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

While I have seen many posts on the series and Norse mythology, I haven't seen this particular reference articulated so thought I would throw it out there.  The name Leaf seems so apropos to a Child of the Forest, I didn't give it a second thought.

However, Norse mythology is based on cyclical eschatology, the World ends at Ragnarok but then revives along with a few humans that survive, and this happens over and over again.

The two people that survive the current cycle, or the past one, are called Lif and Lifthrasur, with Lif being the female.  They hide in a forest, or, some speculate, the World Tree, and thus are reborn from the trees, tree-women and tree-men. Literally, they are 'children of the forest.

Lif sounds exactly like Leaf to pronounce.  She is the first named Child of the Forest and seems important.  She has wandered the World for hundreds or possibly thousands of years.

But I don't like to get too exact with comparisons to myth; she might not be meant to be the First being, but just to draw our attention to what she represents.  The sense is pervasive, however, that the Norse myth we know about already met its Ragnarok, and this is a new cycle ( a song of ice and fire, not the song), with the first beings literally children of the forest, born of trees, Lif and Lifthrasur.

I think It's a clever conceit and gives us a glimpse into how Martin conceives his world and its beginnings.  A cycle of our world but the stories and myths and histories played out in new constellations with new faces and events and "not quite" fitting what we know of them.

No buzzkill intended here, Lady.   You know I enjoy your stuff.   

Admittedly I do enjoy all these name connections to mythology and lore from our own world.   The problem I have with this one is that Leaf is just the name Bran & Co dub her, right?  Does that sort of nickname or name of convenience count?   My other contention is that we had the Ghost of High Heart well before Leaf.    I take it you think she's not a COTF?   

Aside from my very small, menial questions this is actually pretty good stuff.   I am constantly amazed at the preplanning, who knows? maybe even unconscious planning GRRM has put into this thing.  

[Lady Barbrey]

48 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

No buzzkill intended here, Lady.   You know I enjoy your stuff.   

Admittedly I do enjoy all these name connections to mythology and lore from our own world.   The problem I have with this one is that Leaf is just the name Bran & Co dub her, right?  Does that sort of nickname or name of convenience count?   My other contention is that we had the Ghost of High Heart well before Leaf.    I take it you think she's not a COTF?   

Aside from my very small, menial questions this is actually pretty good stuff.   I am constantly amazed at the preplanning, who knows? maybe even unconscious planning GRRM has put into this thing.  

I was pretty specific I didn't think she was the first being, and it honestly doesn't matter who called her what.  The important thing is that George named her Leaf  drawing our attention to Lif, child of the tree who survives Ragnarok.  The GoHH doesn't come into it, though I actually always assumed she was CotF.

While it might seem a small catch  it does make me reconsider this world anew if we're to view it post-Ragnarok.  At Ragnarok, for instance  the world is ultimately covered by the ocean.  If this is post-Ragnarok, then maybe some of the artifacts that keep cropping up, which seem to indicate past civilizations of advanced technology, are merely remnants, not of this world's past, but of the pre-Ragnarok world as the Norse saw and experienced it.

Moreover, it made me remember the role of the ocean at Ragnarok.  While the gods are warring with ice and fire giants and the World is destroyed, It's the ocean that wins in the end. So Euron might be that representative and just as much a threat as the Others. Or not.  

It gives depth and texture, at least for me.

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Lady Barbrey said:

I was pretty specific I didn't think she was the first being, and it honestly doesn't matter who called her what.  The important thing is that George named her Leaf  drawing our attention to Lif, child of the tree who survives Ragnarok.  The GoHH doesn't come into it, though I actually always assumed she was CotF.

While it might seem a small catch  it does make me reconsider this world anew if we're to view it post-Ragnarok.  At Ragnarok, for instance  the world is ultimately covered by the ocean.  If this is post-Ragnarok, then maybe some of the artifacts that keep cropping up, which seem to indicate past civilizations of advanced technology, are merely remnants, not of this world's past, but of the pre-Ragnarok world as the Norse saw and experienced it.

It gives depth and texture, at least for me.

I'm sorry, Lady, my "first" mention only went to how I interpreted your statement.  A thousand apologies.   I guess I got wrapped up in your idea and thought you were saying Leaf was the first named COTF that we hear of.   I was so far apart in what you were saying and I was interpreting that I probably deserve an award for this one.   Still that's the point of exchanging ideas isn't it?   You made me understand and I thank you.    I'm thinking of your other magic topic here in world view of Planetos.  Post Ragnarok is a shiny new way to look at things and honestly, what else can we do during the long night between books?   Thanks for answering my silly questions.   That's pretty good you know?   Post Ragnarok...i'm pretty sure this world is post something, so why not?   

[Lady Barbrey]

15 hours ago, bemused said:

Very nice, Lady Barbrey.. I hadn't thought about Leaf before

My sentiments exactly re: the bold. It's something I stressed over and over in my (now) ancient thread about Val and Tormund. What started me off was when I realised both Val and Dalla seemed to be wordplay on Vala .. 

..a role I think they play , but of course with whatever differences George has devised. Likewise, with Tormund , Speaker-to-gods describes the role of the Norse chieftain/priest, speaking to the gods for the people, instead of speaking for the gods to the people.

 

Love to read it, bemused.  Do you have  link.

[Lady Barbrey]

9 hours ago, Seams said:

Very nice! This helps with a wordplay connection I never quite understood - "leaf" and "flea," as in Flea Bottom. 

People like Dunk and Davos and HotPie and Lommy Greenhands are always described as orphans from the streets of Flea Bottom. Every single one has no parents and no idea who his parents were. I think GRRM is giving us people who are reborn from the earth, in a sense. (Maybe "street" is even wordplay on "reset"?) Except the Flea Bottom earth may be different from the Children of the Forest earth. 

Because the second word in Flea Bottom seems to be wordplay on "tomb" (see also Tobho Mott) the idea of linking death and rebirth is strongly implied. 

The bowls of brown often contain mystery meat that might include human flesh - singer stew, as Tyrion calls it. Compared to the bowl of weirwood paste (paste = past?) fed to Bran, I think we are seeing a special recipe for rebirth, served in a bowl. Dunk's early memory from Flea Bottom is of "the cook," speculating about who Dunk's father might have been.

You've set off a chain reaction in me, now. Maybe cooks are like alchemists and maeges, stirring up the cauldrons of brown, mixing in new ingredients and deciding what to scoop out and put in the customer's bowl. The Flea Bottom characters don't have parents because they are reborn from the primordial ooze in the pot shops with cooks instead of parents.

Now I want to take a look at other cooks in the series . . . Tyrion likes to play cyvasse with the cook on the doomed ship (until the storm when that cook dies horribly). Dolorous Edd cooks up a big batch of hard-boiled eggs in a pot filled with - inexplicably - spiced wine. Thoros of Myr feeds Brienne after she fights Rorge and her face is bitten by Biter. Davos eats sister stew that is different from other sister stews, prepared by the granddaughter of Lord Godric of Sweetsister. Are these all variations on bowls of rebirth stew? 

Interesting!

[Lady Barbrey]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm sorry, Lady, my "first" mention only went to how I interpreted your statement.  A thousand apologies.   I guess I got wrapped up in your idea and thought you were saying Leaf was the first named COTF that we hear of.   I was so far apart in what you were saying and I was interpreting that I probably deserve an award for this one.   Still that's the point of exchanging ideas isn't it?   You made me understand and I thank you.    I'm thinking of your other magic topic here in world view of Planetos.  Post Ragnarok is a shiny new way to look at things and honestly, what else can we do during the long night between books?   Thanks for answering my silly questions.   That's pretty good you know?   Post Ragnarok...i'm pretty sure this world is post something, so why not?   

S'okay,  CF.  I see allegories to myth and legend all the time in the texts, and while I have no doubt George uses them for inspiration and even the basis for some of his plots, I've seen theories get completely derailed when they're taken too literally, and been skeptical myself when someone proposes solutions based on how a myth ends. I didn't want my idea dismissed because people saw it as a concrete plot device or history.  It's a bit of myth I think George used when he was developing his ideas for the Children of the Forest.

[bemused]

3 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Love to read it, bemused.  Do you have  link.

 Yes, here it is ... it's from 2012, so some stuff was falling into place as we went along and it isn't all laid out at the beginning... (I've also spouted at length on other people's threads about Jon and Val..)

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/66294-tormund-and-val-jons-intermediaries-to-the-old-gods/

...and it was another few years before I saw this other major connection to Norse myth / culture...

 https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/130451-jon-the-berserker/

I love the idea of Leaf / Lif, and I'm interested in your insights...

 

 

 

[hiemal]

On 10/18/2018 at 5:16 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

While I have seen many posts on the series and Norse mythology, I haven't seen this particular reference articulated so thought I would throw it out there.  The name Leaf seems so apropos to a Child of the Forest, I didn't give it a second thought.

However, Norse mythology is based on cyclical eschatology, the World ends at Ragnarok but then revives along with a few humans that survive, and this happens over and over again.

The two people that survive the current cycle, or the past one, are called Lif and Lifthrasur, with Lif being the female.  They hide in a forest, or, some speculate, the World Tree, and thus are reborn from the trees, tree-women and tree-men. Literally, they are 'children of the forest.

Lif sounds exactly like Leaf to pronounce.  She is the first named Child of the Forest and seems important.  She has wandered the World for hundreds or possibly thousands of years.

But I don't like to get too exact with comparisons to myth; she might not be meant to be the First being, but just to draw our attention to what she represents.  The sense is pervasive, however, that the Norse myth we know about already met its Ragnarok, and this is a new cycle ( a song of ice and fire, not the song), with the first beings literally children of the forest, born of trees, Lif and Lifthrasur.

I think It's a clever conceit and gives us a glimpse into how Martin conceives his world and its beginnings.  A cycle of our world but the stories and myths and histories played out in new constellations with new faces and events and "not quite" fitting what we know of them.

This! The cycle of death and rebirth is one we see again and again with the Old Gods and the weirwoods in particular. I think you are 100% on the the money here. The CotF are the squirrels, ravens are the psychopomps.

Not to derail things too far how do you feel about the cycles of invasion that also pop up over and over and Irish mythology- particularly the Lebor Gabala Erenn?

[Lady Barbrey]

3 hours ago, bemused said:

 Yes, here it is ... it's from 2012, so some stuff was falling into place as we went along and it isn't all laid out at the beginning... (I've also spouted at length on other people's threads about Jon and Val..)

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/66294-tormund-and-val-jons-intermediaries-to-the-old-gods/

...and it was another few years before I saw this other major connection to Norse myth / culture...

 https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/130451-jon-the-berserker/

I love the idea of Leaf / Lif, and I'm interested in your insights...

 

 

 

Great! I think I read your berserker thread because you referred me to it before when I asked if anyone had considered two way skinchanging or berserking?  It was a good read.

I too was early out of the gate with Norse myth comparisons, but I found it very curious that the bad guys or Loki's kids - Fenris the Wolf (Jon or Bran), Jormungandr the dragon/serpent (Dany) and Hel (Stoneheart/Arya) - from the first Ragnarok seemed to be set up as the good side in this one.  So the idea we're on another cycle has reverberations here too.  

Will read your thread asap!

[Lady Barbrey]

3 hours ago, hiemal said:

This! The cycle of death and rebirth is one we see again and again with the Old Gods and the weirwoods in particular. I think you are 100% on the the money here. The CotF are the squirrels, ravens are the psychopomps.

Not to derail things too far how do you feel about the cycles of invasion that also pop up over and over and Irish mythology- particularly the Lebor Gabala Erenn?

I've always connected the invasions/migrations of Westeros - sea-farers, First Men, Andals, Rhoynar and Targaryens - more with the way England/Scotland was inhabited than Ireland, but maybe because I've paid little attention to Lebor Gabala Erenn.  I've never read it so any comparisons you might bring up won't be familiar to me. Perhaps someone else will recognize allusions with you?  You're welcome to lay out your theory on the invasions on this thread though!

[bemused]

1 hour ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I too was early out of the gate with Norse myth comparisons, but I found it very curious that the bad guys or Loki's kids - Fenris the Wolf (Jon or Bran), Jormungandr the dragon/serpent (Dany) and Hel (Stoneheart/Arya) - from the first Ragnarok seemed to be set up as the good side in this one.

I'd liken Jon and Bran (or maybe Jon and Rickon, depending how the story goes) to Geri and Freki , Odin's wolf companions... (not that I think a direct link is necessary - it just may be) And of course there are echos  Of Huginn and Muninn in Mormonts raven (and others, I guess)

Then, I don't know about Dany because she doesn't hail from the north... Maybe she's rooted in some other source material.

Bran is becoming all-seeing and has his own wolf companion in Summer ... just thoughts.

[honorable men]

8 hours ago, bemused said:

 Yes, here it is ... it's from 2012, so some stuff was falling into place as we went along and it isn't all laid out at the beginning... (I've also spouted at length on other people's threads about Jon and Val..)

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/66294-tormund-and-val-jons-intermediaries-to-the-old-gods/

...and it was another few years before I saw this other major connection to Norse myth / culture...

 https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/130451-jon-the-berserker/

I love the idea of Leaf / Lif, and I'm interested in your insights...

 

 

 

What are your predictions on whats going to happen next ? storywise

[Lady Barbrey]

23 hours ago, bemused said:

I'd liken Jon and Bran (or maybe Jon and Rickon, depending how the story goes) to Geri and Freki , Odin's wolf companions... (not that I think a direct link is necessary - it just may be) And of course there are echos  Of Huginn and Muninn in Mormonts raven (and others, I guess)

Then, I don't know about Dany because she doesn't hail from the north... Maybe she's rooted in some other source material.

Bran is becoming all-seeing and has his own wolf companion in Summer ... just thoughts.

@bemused I finally read your post, and all ten pages of comments! It was excellent, one of the better ones, and great comments too (those were the days, when we weren't six years out from the last novel).  I actually think I had seen it referred to on one of sweetsunray's posts about valkyries. I am going to agree wholeheartedly with your theories about Tormund and Val.  

Unfortunately, I don't remember too much about Val, it's been so long since I visited that part of ADWD. What I do remember is how much her initial physical description reminded me of Dany.  It was like George was giving us her northern version.

The Norse gods - Aesir and Vanir - as well as the frost giants and fire giants - were all related. All the good guys and bad guys at Ragnarok came from one family.  So I have an idea about why George might give that impression about Val, to do with my reverse migration theory, but I don't feel confident until I finish my re-read of the series and I'm only on the first book.

As for the characters, I don't think anymore that any of them fit the Norse gods exactly because the Norse gods are the old gods in the World Tree, oops I mean weir net, and the characters are merely reflections in a glass darkly that sometimes act out their cosmic identities.  Where there is no weir net, we find Surtr the fire giant (Rhlorr), the unnamed other leader of the frost giants (the Others), and the Ocean, the final winner at Ragnarok.

Bran has more myth and legendary figure attributes attached to him than any other character: an incipient Merlin or Odin, Baldr,  Bran the Blessed, the Fisher King, Fenris...

I just want him to have his legs back

Anyway, thank you for the enjoyable read!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bemused]

On 10/20/2018 at 3:44 AM, honorable men said:

What are your predictions on whats going to happen next ? storywise

Yikes! There's a question for you.  ... I assume you mean in the Northern storyline ? (I'll try not to get too into detail to avoid derailing the thread)

I think all the major cliffhanger characters will survive - Jon, Stannis and Mance.

I expect Ghost will get to Jon, Jon will get up in berserker mode, or the berserker/ulfheddin thing will come out shortly thereafter, depending on how quickly certain things are revealed, for one ...

Borroq will help Jon learn to manage his bond with Ghost... (but no pig army)

Thorne is at CB, hiding in the wormways (perhaps in the exact little cell Sam discovered) and has been directing Bowen and the conspirators (also making changes to the PL that Jon receives)..and I think Bowen and Thorne's backstories will be revealed.

Jon and Val's hinted love story will be consummated (and we'll get a much greater understanding of Val's station in life)

The GNC will Take WF from within helped/led by the HM,Benjen letting extra men in through the passage through the crypts. (yes, I mean it) ... but Roose escapes.

Stannis will return to the wall and the Night Fort

Mance will become one of Jon's lieutenants, like Tormund ... (and I just had an interesting idea that prompts me to start a new thread)

Davos gets back with Rickon, Shaggy and Osha...

Robb's wishes become known..

I'm debating how the the two mature Starks (Jon and Benjen) will be deployed one at the wall as LC one as the Stark in WF and guardian of Rickon...

Have you heard enough? Are you sorry you asked ?...