Penny's Gift

[Canon Claude]

On 12/11/2018 at 6:19 PM, John Suburbs said:

@Megorova and I were having a discussion in another thread that I thought I'd open up to the board. It start's with this quite from Penny to Tyrion:

So the question is, what kind of gift could the SoB (har!) have given to Oppo and Penny all those years ago that she does not want to reveal to Tyrion now?

Meg is certain it is either one or all three of the dragon eggs that Alyssa Farman brought to Braavos way back when, and you all are welcome to continue that argument with her (? or him?), but I tend to doubt it. For the life of me, though, I cannot think of anything that she would want to keep secret from Tyrion, even if it was a dragon egg.

Any ideas?

I’m pretty sure those dragon eggs became Daenerys’ eggs. That’s how it felt to me as I read Fire and Blood anyway.

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, corbon said:

Aegon the Unworthy is not the best example for what is reasonable.

Whether it's reasonable, or unreasonable, is not the point, the point is, is that something like that (i.e. owner of dragon egg, giving it away to someone for ridiculous reason), has already happened in ASOIAF-world once. Thus, something like that, can happen again.

15 hours ago, corbon said:

Butterwell was going to give the egg to Daemon II Blackfyre to kick off the rebellion - the Tourney was totally rigged. I don't think this example supports your case in any way. 

The tournament wasn't TOTALLY rigged, and Butterwell wasn't going to just give that egg to Daemon. Daemon himself was not aware, that his friend, Gormon Peake, has conspired with Tommard Heddle (Butterwell's son-in-law, and commander of Whitewalls' garrison), to make Daemon win in that tournament, or that he has paid to Uthor Underleaf to get rid of Dunk. Butterwell was expecting, that Daemon will become winner, and thus will get that dragon egg, but he wasn't doing anything to help Daemon win. He was thinking, same as Daemon, that the tournament was played fair. So if someone else, and not Daemon, did won in that tournament, then Butterwell would have given the egg to that winner, so even this example does support my case. If Glendon Flowers won in that tournament, then Butterwell would have given the egg to him - to a no one, and a son of a whore. Anyone was allowed to enter lists of that tournament, and Butterwell was going to give the egg to the winner, and thus, to anyone, which is unreasonable, considering how valuable a dragon egg is, but this still was going to happen.

[Seams]

On 12/11/2018 at 6:19 PM, John Suburbs said:

So the question is, what kind of gift could the SoB (har!) have given to Oppo and Penny all those years ago that she does not want to reveal to Tyrion now?

I do think dragon's eggs are likely candidates for the the grand gifts given to Penny and Groat. But I also have this sneaking suspicion that Penny might be The Shrouded Lord (yeah, I'm serious). From the wiki:

Quote

. . .  another version of the tale, in which the Shrouded Lord was a statue at first, and a grey woman from the fog kissed life to it with lips as cold as ice.^[2] They say the Shrouded Lord will grant a boon to any man who can make him laugh. . . . Tyrion Lannister comes to associate the Shrouded Lord with Tywin Lannister, the father he slew, and has bad dreams of both.

Penny keeps trying to kiss Tyrion. She is sad and grieving when their voyage begins, but comes out of her funk and starts to be more merry as Tyrion befriends her. She is also put into the position of a father figure for Tyrion when she offers to teach him how to survive as a little person by entertaining people - lessons Tyrion's father never taught him. 

Penny is in a parallel role to Ygritte in Jon Snow's arc (except that Jon Snow wanted to have sex with Ygritte and Tyrion does not want to have sex with Penny). She is teaching Tyrion games he has not played and things he couldn't learn in books, although he doesn't acknowledge that he has things to learn from Penny.

There is a possible wordplay clue around the name "Penny" - the link to Ser Arlan of Pennytree - that might hint that Penny is a gatekeeper of sorts to a Celtic-type underworld. When Tyrion was pushed into the river at The Sorrows, he may have symbolically entered this underworld where he soon met Penny. 

So Penny may have been "gifted" with the Shrouded Lord identity (gift is the German word for poison) and she is now trying to pass along that gift to Tyrion. I bet we could examine the Ned / Thoros / Ser Beric / Catelyn chain of magic for similar status / power that is passed along through a kiss.

But the name "Penny" may also be linked through wordplay to the word "serpentine," and that brings us back to dragons (and their eggs). 

Quoting @Megorova:

Quote

Butterwell was expecting, that Daemon will become winner, and thus will get that dragon egg, but he wasn't doing anything to help Daemon win. He was thinking, same as Daemon, that the tournament was played fair. So if someone else, and not Daemon, did won in that tournament, then Butterwell would have given the egg to that winner, so even this example does support my case.

I agree with this. I did a very close reading of the symbolism in the Ashford Meadow tourney in The Hedge Knight, another "failed" tournament where the proceedings were disrupted. That tournament very clearly established the Targaryen line of succession for the next few generations but the "winners" in that event came about in entirely unexpected ways: Maekar never dreamed that he would kill Baelor. Prince Valarr had been choosing easy opponents - not exactly cheating, but not proving himself a worthy champion. We know he later dies in the Spring Sickness.

The same kind of Targayen succession is being played out at Whitewalls, with the dragon egg as the symbol of succession. The fact that Bloodraven directs the dwarf mummers to steal the egg by going up the privy shaft may reveal several things: Bloodraven does not personally take the egg. I.e., he is not putting himself in the line of succession. Tyrion, as a dwarf with experience with sewers (drains at Casterly Rock) and sewing (making his own suit of motley aboard the Shy Maid) and with being a mummer (the play jousting act with Penny) may be in the line of Targ (or Iron Throne) succession. We have also seen him climb up a shaft to the bedchamber of the Tower of the Hand where he kills Shae and Tywin. There may be wordplay around vyper / privy and there is almost certainly an allusion to the children's game shoots and ladders (called snakes and ladders in some countries) which seems to be the Game of Thrones played in Maegor's Holdfast. (Along with "Come Into my Castle".) 

Penny is like a Master at Arms for Tyrion, as well as his squire, his Ygritte-equivalent and his "father" (you have to look at details of their conversations and Tyrion's dream to see this). If A + J = T is true, she is a key player in providing Tyrion with his Targ credentials and getting him ready to battle for the throne. It is entirely appropriate that she would have a dragon egg or two that she would allude to in her interactions with Tyrion. (See also the cyvasse game where Penny tries to use elephants as dragons, and Tyrion tells her elephants can't fly. He thinks she is a "Dumbo," but she may know things he doesn't know.)

Many people believe that Aegon V / Egg is the dragon who hatched at Whitewalls; maybe Tyrion is the dragon who hatches when the hull of the Selaesori Qhoran cracks open. Instead of Bloodraven in the background of Tyrion and Penny's adventures, I think the Bloodraven role is played by the Widow of the Waterfront. Ser Jorah fills the kingsguard role that parallels Ser Duncan the Tall. 

[DarkSister1001]

16 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

A golden dragon each?  A lot of money for third-rate entertainers but pocket change for a Lannister.

That's what I was thinking.  Or at least the Braavosi coin equivalent. 

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

I’m pretty sure those dragon eggs became Daenerys’ eggs. That’s how it felt to me as I read Fire and Blood anyway.

Right, but the question is whether Penny, Oppo and Hop-Bean were given the eggs first, which then somehow wound up in Illyrio's possession. I tend to think not, but I cannot think of what gift the sealord would have given Penny way back then that she is now reluctant to reveal to Tyrion.

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I do think dragon's eggs are likely candidates for the the grand gifts given to Penny and Groat. But I also have this sneaking suspicion that Penny might be The Shrouded Lord (yeah, I'm serious). From the wiki:

Penny keeps trying to kiss Tyrion. She is sad and grieving when their voyage begins, but comes out of her funk and starts to be more merry as Tyrion befriends her. She is also put into the position of a father figure for Tyrion when she offers to teach him how to survive as a little person by entertaining people - lessons Tyrion's father never taught him. 

Penny is in a parallel role to Ygritte in Jon Snow's arc (except that Jon Snow wanted to have sex with Ygritte and Tyrion does not want to have sex with Penny). She is teaching Tyrion games he has not played and things he couldn't learn in books, although he doesn't acknowledge that he has things to learn from Penny.

There is a possible wordplay clue around the name "Penny" - the link to Ser Arlan of Pennytree - that might hint that Penny is a gatekeeper of sorts to a Celtic-type underworld. When Tyrion was pushed into the river at The Sorrows, he may have symbolically entered this underworld where he soon met Penny. 

So Penny may have been "gifted" with the Shrouded Lord identity (gift is the German word for poison) and she is now trying to pass along that gift to Tyrion. I bet we could examine the Ned / Thoros / Ser Beric / Catelyn chain of magic for similar status / power that is passed along through a kiss.

But the name "Penny" may also be linked through wordplay to the word "serpentine," and that brings us back to dragons (and their eggs). 

Um, OK. Call me a skeptic, but it's certainly nothing that can be disproven.