The house with the red door and the lemon tree

[Platypus Rex]

7 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

If D&D guessed it right, what is the whole point of spending millions and millions of dollars airing a TOJ version that is SIGNIFICANTLY different than the answer?

The point, obviously, is to make money for HBO.  

Ultimately, they will decide to give the viewers what they think will be popular.  This MIGHT be the same as what they originally guessed was correct.  But not necessarily.

[The Map Guy]

GoT will still make money for HBO no matter what version of TOJ they air. Fans will still watch the show if it was Hodor that came out of Lyanna.

[Ygrain]

 

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

GRRM said they guessed correctly about the mother.  He explicitly declined to comment on whether they guessed (correctly or not) about the father.  

Quote for this, please?

Especially as he also said that HBO will eventually have to adress Rhaegar and Lyanna.

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

And, of course, he never confirmed that they said "Lyanna".  You believe they said "Lyanna", because you already believe it is the correct answer.   They could have said "Ashara", and then the father could still be Ned … or Brandon.

They gave "the shocking answer". A name stated explicitely in the text hardly qualifies as "shocking", so both Wylla and Ashara - neither of whom is featured in the show in any way or form - hardly qualifies.

On 1/26/2019 at 3:22 AM, Platypus Rex said:

From then on, no success, as one might expect from a doubly-inbred union.  All the children either died young, or were mad like Viserys.  Why?  Because they are (unlike Rhaegar) the children of Aerys and Rhaella.  Rhaegar is, of course, the son of Bonifer.

Quite a couple of Targs interbred before without exhibiting such problems. Which goes to the fact that interbreeding itself does not cause problems, it is the increased chance of passing on damaged genes. People do not have to be interbred to have problems siring healthy offspring (Henry VII wasn't related to any of his wives), and if one parent exhibit signs of mental illness, children may inherit it, too, even when the other parent is unrelated.

On 1/26/2019 at 3:48 AM, Platypus Rex said:

More usually, the way you do it is you entomb the body somewhere safe, like under a cairn.  Later, when the body is sufficiently decomposed, you retrieve the bones.  This does less violence to the body.

That is the clue - later. Ned didn't have the time for it.

In ADWD, when Barristan ponders what to do with Quentyn's body, he goes through they options, and they are burning, boiling (normally done by the Silent Sisters) and debugging, for which you seem to need the right type of bugs. 

On 1/26/2019 at 3:48 AM, Platypus Rex said:

There were 8 cairns at the Tower of Joy, but most assume there were 9 bodies.  The 8th cairn was for Lyanna.  The one who did not get a cairn was Lord Willam Dustin.  He did get not a cairn because he died later, with no-one around to build a cairn for him.  This is why Ned was unable to return his bones to Lady Dustin.

Since Lyanna's bones were taken to the North, she didn't need a cairn.

And if Ned brought Lord Dustin's bones, everyone else would be pissed why their bones weren't brought, either.

On 1/26/2019 at 7:42 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Cersei and others clearly suspect that Ned and Ashara got it on, and that Jon is the result of that union.  But Brandon was still alive when Ned and Ashara were rumored to be doing hanky panky.  Maybe Cersei and others are bad at timelines?  Or maybe you're not fairly assessing the (possibly conflicting) evidence.

Cersei and others have no idea when Jon was born or when he was brought to Winterfell, as Ned hardly bothered to advertise such stuff.

 

[Platypus Rex]

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

GoT will still make money for HBO no matter what version of TOJ they air. Fans will still watch the show if it was Hodor that came out of Lyanna.

Well, then they will do whatever is cheap and/or easy and/or politically correct.  They might even give some sway to the artistic preferences of the writers.  What D&D guessed when GRRM asked them a question all those years ago, will be the last thing on their list of priorities. 

[Platypus Rex]

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

"Quote for this, please?"

It's the same interview where GRRM confirms that D&D's answer was correct.  I'm sure you can google it.

"Especially as he also said that HBO will eventually have to adress Rhaegar and Lyanna."

So what?  He never said HBO would have to say that Rhaegar and/or Lyanna were Jon's parents.  This is "confirmation bias" on steroids.

"They gave "the shocking answer". A name stated explicitely in the text hardly qualifies as "shocking", so both Wylla and Ashara - neither of whom is featured in the show in any way or form - hardly qualifies."

So then, I guess Jon is the child of Lyanna and Ned, then?  Or maybe D&D are just trying to hype the show.

[Platypus Rex]

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

"Quite a couple of Targs interbred before without exhibiting such problems."

The damage can reversed by outbreeding.  Examples of 2 successive generations of sibling incest are rare; and most such examples illustrate the problems that can result from this practice.  Certainly, there are no other examples where further inbreeding led to an improvement of the stock.  There are perhaps a few examples where a second generation of inbreeding did not lead to (much) further damage to the line.

"Which goes to the fact that interbreeding itself does not cause problems, it is the increased chance of passing on damaged genes."

Viserys is mad, his wife is sickly.  Charm/beauty were their only talents.  Each is the other's all-but twin, sharing 80%+ of each other's genes.  Of course they are going to pass on their damaged genes.  It's not like the excellent specimens like Jahaerys and Alysanne (themselves products of outbreeding) getting married without creating TOO many obvious problems in all their kids.

"Since Lyanna's bones were taken to the North, she didn't need a cairn."

Does he carry Silent Sisters with jars of acid in his back pocket?  If not, then he needs a cairn to protect the body until he can prepare the bones for transportation.  He's not going to ride around in summer with his sister's rotting corpse strapped to the back of a horse.

"And if Ned brought Lord Dustin's bones, everyone else would be pissed why their bones weren't brought, either."

Lord Dustin is a Lord.  The others are not Lords.  And Ned must know that Lady Dustin is pissed at him.  He would want to appease her if only to maintain the loyalty of her house.   

"Cersei and others have no idea when Jon was born or when he was brought to Winterfell …"

If so, you and I are in a similar boat as Cersei.  We don't know when Jon was born, nor even when he arrived at Winterfell.  The only thing we know is that Jon was already there when Cat got there.  Cat probably did not set out until her infant, Robb, was old enough to travel.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

It's the same interview where GRRM confirms that D&D's answer was correct.  I'm sure you can google it.

NO HE DIDN'T  

Quote

He asked us, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer. At that point, George didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point.

Unless there is some new interview in which GRRM discusses the issue that I never heard about, that is the original quote everyone is referencing. He was just making sure they were actually fans of the books. The criteria obviously can't be that they correctly solve every mystery or no one would be allowed to make GoT.

 

10 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

GoT will still make money for HBO no matter what version of TOJ they air. Fans will still watch the show if it was Hodor that came out of Lyanna.

Exactly... so why are you so confident that HBO ToJ is book cannon? The show is obviously not cannon, as a shit load of characters are omitted entirely. Not a single character has followed their original book plot all the way through season 7. Not even close.

[Platypus Rex]

1 minute ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

NO HE DIDN'T  

The later interview with GRRM ... not the one with D&D.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Just now, Platypus Rex said:

The later interview with GRRM ... not the one with D&D.

Well I don't know what you're talking about and google failed me, so please show me a different quote or link to a video

[The Map Guy]

9 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Exactly... so why are you so confident that HBO ToJ is book cannon?

Believe me when I tell you I DON'T want HBO's TOJ version to be book cannon. The only thing I want from it is that D&D guessed correctly who Jon's mother is. I will be happy with that answer.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 minute ago, The Map Guy said:

Believe me when I tell you I DON'T want HBO's TOJ version to be book cannon. The only thing I want from it is that D&D guessed correctly who Jon's mother is. I will be happy with that answer.

But you admit that you have zero proof they answered correctly, right? All we know is that GRRM smiled. Do you concede that the HBO version is not proof of anything?

[Three-Fingered Pete]

5 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But you admit that you have zero proof they answered correctly, right? All we know is that GRRM smiled. Do you concede that the HBO version is not proof of anything?

 

Hey 40K Skeletons! (Used to be Trefayne here)

Good point. D&D's answer and GRRM's coy smile could indicate that they got it wrong and he was good for them to do their thing since he knew already that they wouldn't ruin his big reveal at all.

I can just see George running off from that meeting all Gollum-like, "Yesss, yesss, my precious! All mine! All mine!"

[The Map Guy]

17 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But you admit that you have zero proof they answered correctly, right? All we know is that GRRM smiled. Do you concede that the HBO version is not proof of anything?

No, D&D had the correct answer to who Jon's mom is and they aired a TOJ version according to that question.

But for me, in the books, that is only half it. The question that GRRM asked D&D was a trick question. It is missing another half.

 

I wrote this in the comments of my thread R+L=J&M [Part IV]....

In the HBO script that GRRM personally wrote for the "Bear and Maiden Fair" episode, there was a dialogue that went down like this:

Spoiler

 

Robb & his pregnant Queen-wife are talking...

 

King Robb: You are my Queen.

Queen Wife: And I have your prince or princess inside of me.

King Robb: *Smirks* Why not one of each?

Queen Wife: Don't be greedy!

 

 

 

This dialogue written by GRRM is a sneaky way of telling HBO they cannot be greedy and have both the prince & princess ... of TOJ. Maybe that was why GRRM smiled at D&D's answer.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

6 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Hey 40K Skeletons! (Used to be Trefayne here)

Good point. D&D's answer and GRRM's coy smile could indicate that they got it wrong and he was good for them to do their thing since he knew already that they wouldn't ruin his big reveal at all.

I can just see George running off from that meeting all Gollum-like, "Yesss, yesss, my precious! All mine! All mine!"

LOL yes precisely. And then he still gets to reveal the real answer in the books and gets to take his time finishing TWOW, which is what he wanted all along.  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

6 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

No, D&D had the correct answer to who Jon's mom is and they aired a TOJ version according to that question.

SHOW ME THE QUOTE PLEASE

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

11 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Anyways back to B+A=J. Today is my son's birthday, he is 1 year old. We had a birthday party for him yesterday where my wife hung a banner with pictures of him from newborn to 1 month old to 2 months old ........ to 12 months old. The picture of my son as newborn is MUCH tinier than ~9 months or whatever the age difference between Jon and Robb that B+A=J is suggesting.

Here is my argument from an earlier discussion on this topic:

TL;DR I am suggesting the age difference is closer to 2 months, and some time had passed before everyone made it back to WF.

 

11 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Why is B+A=J so special anyways?

GRRM is a sci-fi writer who often writes about genetic mutations/engineering and inbreeding causing crazy sci-fi abilities and such. ASOIAF is obviously another story in which inherited telepathic abilities are playing a big role in the story, mainly that all the Stark kids are wargs, and Dany hatched dragons. Brandon was definitely a skinchanger, and Ashara is a Dayne, a mysterious house that is purportedly a First Men house yet looks Valyrian, at least as implied by Arianne's description of Darkstar. And House Dayne has a legendary possibly "magic" sword and some not-yet-revealed criteria for who gets to wield it. Could it be based on whoever inherited the right genetic traits mayhaps? Have the Daynes been marrying cousins for thousands of years like have the other noble families of Westeros and keeping that special gene present in the family?

So it is "special" for 2 reasons. 1) GRRM clearly established the B+A relationship for some reason and that reason is almost certainly a baby because seriously what else would it be, and 2) Brandon and Ashara both potentially had special genetic traits they could potentially pass to their offspring, which Jon (if the theory is true) was obviously lucky enough to get, since he is a warg.

11 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I don't see why Ned would lie about either.
Jon being Brandon's son with Ned not telling Cat to protect her feelings and solidified the Stark-Tully alliance????
Well Cat got hurt more with her husband cheating on her, and her cheating husband should affect the Stark-Tully alliance even more.

If I was Ned in B+A=J, I would have told Cat & the rest of the Tully family in a heartbeat, and put the blame & truth on my dead brother....instead of jeopardizing MY relationship going forward with the families and the rest of the world knowing.

Cat's feelings don't really come into it. It is Hoster's feelings that matter. Cat's children must inherit WF or Hoster is going to be super fucking pissed because the previously fantastic marriage he arranged for his daughter would become virtually worthless. None of Cat's children would inherit WF or its incomes, and Cat and Ned themselves wouldn't even be the rulers of WF or be the recipients of its incomes, because baby Jon would be the new Lord of WF. Obviously Hoster/Cat/Ned could claim that Jon is a bastard (which may or may not be true) and try to disqualify him in that manner, but the matter would certainly be up for debate. It was obviously the right move politically for Ned to claim that Jon was not Brandon's. Hoster isn't going to care that Ned was honest if it means his daughter's marriage becomes worthless.

12 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

.......what is so special about R+L=D and B+A=J anyways?? Jon is dead at the end ADWD, is there any significant reason why he should be revived? He is the son of a dead Stark and a dead Dayne. Why would someone like R'hllor/Melisandre revive him? He ain't getting no dragon if he is not a Targ.

Is it to wield Dawn to fight the Others? I rather have a fire-dragon (or a lighting-dragon). Can Dawn even kill an Other like dragonglass does? Does Dawn give a Dayne special powers to fight the Others? Why can't someone else with no Dayne DNA steal Dawn and use it to fight the Others? The current generation of Targaryens have Dayne DNA from Dyanna Dayne anyways. If Dawn is so special, how come the last fight it was in, the wielder lost?

I don't think Jon is going to ride a dragon, though I also think it might be possible you don't need to be a Targ to bond with a dragon. Someone with the wrong DNA cannot wield Dawn because it requires telepathic abilities to activate the sword's "magic", like how you need the right DNA to bond with a dragon, as you just referenced. And I doubt Dawn would be more useful than a dragon above ground, but the Others live and travel underground, so a magic sword that makes heat and light would be super useful to fight them down there, in spaces too tight for a dragon to go.

Arthur lost because of whatever Howland Reed did, presumably. And whatever he did, it negated the advantage of Dawn. Based on Meera's fighting skills, he probably just threw that fucking net over him and stabbed him from behind with his frog spear, would be my guess. And we know the Others haven't fought with nets yet, so it's all good!  

[The Map Guy]

20 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

SHOW ME THE QUOTE PLEASE

 

Quote

GRRM: Well, I had written three books at that point and each one had done better than the others. The books were selling well and I started getting interest from Hollywood, from various producers and studios who were initially interested in doing it as a feature film. And I met with some of those people and had phone conversations with some people. And I didn't see how it could be done as a feature film - simply too big. But it did get me thinking about how it could possibly be done and I decided the only way it could be done with someone like HBO as a series of television series, each book being a season. But of course, I didn't have the time to do it but I did tell this idea to my agent and I was out here in Hollywood and he set up this meeting with Benioff and Weiss so I met them at the Palm Restaurant. I knew a little about their credits beforehand and they were both novelists and I had read their own books. And we had this lunch at the Palm, which was pretty epic. We got there for lunch and we started talking and continued to talk. And they had the same notion - not to do it as a feature film but to do it as a television production. And we talked right through lunch. Everybody from lunch left. We were alone in the restaurant. They started resetting all the tables for dinner and the dinner crowd started to come in and we were still talking. I asked them a few pointed questions to determine whether they had actually read the books. And they gave me the right answers. So we shook hands and they took the ball and ran with it. Next thing I knew, we were in business with HBO.

Mac: As I understand it, he asked you guys a specific question and you guessed.

Weiss: He asked us - should I say the question? I guess I can say the question. He asked us who is Jon Snow's mother. And we had discussed this before. And we gave an answer - a shocking answer, and George at that point didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong. But the smile on his face - his smile was a tell and we knew we had passed the "Wonka" test at that point, I think.

Ignore the chronology of the interview, ultimately GRRM said that D&D gave the right answer. R+L=J was never revealed in the interview.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Just now, The Map Guy said:

Ignore the chronology of the interview, ultimately GRRM said that D&D gave the right answer. R+L=J was never revealed in the interview.

You can't ignore the chronology of the interview, that's bullshit  

He was just concisely saying that he was satisfied with the answers they gave, because the answers proved they had actually read the books, as he said was his specific concern. Seriously, hypothetically, assume I am right. Do you really think GRRM would have bothered to phrase his words any differently in that interview? He isn't spending hours parsing his own SSM's like we do. That quote proves nothing at all.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

double post

[The Commentator]

The house is in Braavos.  The climate issue was something the author did not consider.