First of his/her name

[Skoboe]

Hey all, been away from this site for a couple of years so apologies if this has been noticed before.

I've been binge-watching and re-reading over the last month after being stuck at home with health issues, and apart from now being able to see a bunch of foreshadowing in every episode of every season, there are a number of patterns sticking out. One of them is how many times you hear the phrase "first of his/her name" when crowning a new king or queen.

Robert Baratheon - first of his name

Stannis Baratheon - first of his name

Renly Baratheon - first of his name

Joffery Baratheon - first of his name

Robb Stark - first of his name

Tommen Baratheon - first of his name

Queen Cersei - first of her name

Queen Daenerys - first of her name

Not sure about Euron Greyjoy?

In a world where history and the various royal lines go back 7,000 years or so, and with many names repeated throughout that history, it strikes me as odd that there would be so many unique names since the Seven Kingdoms went to pot with the Mad King.

Now, assuming that if/when Jon gets crowned the King in the North [in the books] he is first legitimised as Jon Stark, he WON'T be the first of his name. And if/when he gets to be King Aegon Targaryen, he WON'T be the first.

It's safe to say that everything written in ASOIAF is very deliberate, so there may be something in that pattern?

[LordMarek]

Well, as far as I know, first of someone's name is only used with kings, and therefore only covers other kings, from their bloodline, with that same name. So as Robert is the first Baratheon king, even if he had a Baratheon ancestor also named Robert, he would still be the first of his name. Like for instance, there's been five King Aegon's, and Egg was referred to as Aegon V, but there's been 11 known Aegon Targaryen's total (IIRC). So these names aren't really unique, it's just an era of new families becoming monarch's (or claimants).

[Syl of Syl]

All the Baratheons would be first considering Robert is the first Baratheon king and their house hasn't even been around that long. There were at least two Tommen Lannisters who were Kings of the Rock tho, back in the day. As for Robb Stark, I am guessing he was named after Robert Baratheon - I don't think Robb was a common Stark name previously the way Jon, Brandon and Rickon are (there have definitely been at least one Jon and many Brandon Kings of Winter). Cersei was Queen Regent, so I don't think she would get the styling of anything of her name since being regent is not the same as being king. Only one woman has sat the Iron Throne and her name was Rhaenyra, so that's some happenstance for Daeneyrs there. And Euron is listed as the third of his name on the wiki.

You left one off your list tho. If Young Griff wins the Iron Throne, he'll be crowned Aegon Targaryen, sixth of his name. So there's one player with a decidedly not unique name.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

3 hours ago, Skoboe said:

Hey all, been away from this site for a couple of years so apologies if this has been noticed before.

I've been binge-watching and re-reading over the last month after being stuck at home with health issues, and apart from now being able to see a bunch of foreshadowing in every episode of every season, there are a number of patterns sticking out. One of them is how many times you hear the phrase "first of his/her name" when crowning a new king or queen.

Robert Baratheon - first of his name

Stannis Baratheon - first of his name

Renly Baratheon - first of his name

Joffery Baratheon - first of his name

Robb Stark - first of his name

Tommen Baratheon - first of his name

Queen Cersei - first of her name

Queen Daenerys - first of her name

Not sure about Euron Greyjoy?

In a world where history and the various royal lines go back 7,000 years or so, and with many names repeated throughout that history, it strikes me as odd that there would be so many unique names since the Seven Kingdoms went to pot with the Mad King.

Now, assuming that if/when Jon gets crowned the King in the North [in the books] he is first legitimised as Jon Stark, he WON'T be the first of his name. And if/when he gets to be King Aegon Targaryen, he WON'T be the first.

It's safe to say that everything written in ASOIAF is very deliberate, so there may be something in that pattern?

You're making a lot of biased assumptions here as well as bringing the show into the discussion.  The books and the show are totally different.  I will also disagree with you about Jon becoming king of the seven kingdoms.  The king of the north is a possibility.  He is unfit even for that.  The "first" is ofcourse based on historical records.  Ten thousand years is a long time and records are only accurate as far as living memory is concerned.  Hell, there are doubts as to the accuracy of TWOIAF and F&B.  F&B only date back to 300 years.  Whose to say there wasn't a person of the same name who ruled 500 years ago.

[Skoboe]

I'm not theorising mate - just commenting on a pattern. 

[Jô Maltese]

A man thinks Jon's real name may not be "Aegon" in the books but "Aemon". First of his name then.

And "Jon" as the king of the 7K would be "first of his name" as well.

[broken one]

5 hours ago, LordMarek said:

Well, as far as I know, first of someone's name is only used with kings, and therefore only covers other kings, from their bloodline, with that same name.

It does not have to be the same bloodline. It is about the kingdom. If the usurper's name had been Jaehaerys, not Robert, he would have been called Jaehaerys III Baratheon.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

Well, its the first time that Baratheons have been Kings, so it makes sense that all of them would be the first of their names.

Robb Stark, if I'm not mistaken, was named after Robert Baratheon, which makes Robb a southern name, in which case he is also probably the first of his name, and even if it wasn't we'd have no way of telling, since the Starks don't have their full 8000 year history written down.

I don't think Cersei will end up as Queen in the books.

As far as Daenerys goes, there has only been one Targaryen Queen, and she wasn't called Daenerys, so she would also be the first of her name.

One of Euron's titles is "Euron Greyjoy, the Third of His Name Since the Grey King". I don't know how he knows that, but its whats written on the wiki. 

Yeah, if Jon became Jon Stark, King in the North, he wouldn't be the first of his name, but like I said with Robb, the Stark history hasn't been written down fully, so its impossible to know how many Jon Starks there have been, and it wouldn't make sense to just come up with a random number. Of course, I also don't know if the Winter Kings used the whole "first of his name" crap in the first place. It might've been a thing that Robb just started, since he was the first King in the North in almost 300 years, and he was also King of the Riverlands too. 

If Jon actually does become King of the Seven Kingdoms it depends on what his name actually is. The biggest bets are Jon, Aemon, Jaehaerys, and Aegon. In which case he would either be Jon I Targaryen, Aemon I Targaryen, Jaehaerys III Targaryen, or Aegon VI/VII Targaryen (depending on if "Aegon Targaryen" actually gets crowned or not.)

[Vaith]

A lot of the titles you are referencing are to do with the Iron Throne. One must remember that a unified Westeros didn't exist before 300 years before the series, and thus even if there had been a Storm King named Robert, Renly, Tommen, Joffrey or Stannis, (though we don't know if they are) they are "first of his name" to rule the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros on the Iron Throne. 

So if Aenys Frey took the Iron Throne in some weird reality, he'd be Aenys, Second of His Name. The Robb thing's definitely a bit odd, but it does seem he might have a unique name -- plus, the 8000 history of the Starks may well be inflated to a degree. Among the Ironborn there's definitely more remnants of the past; as said above, Euron is the Third of His Name and Balon is the Ninth of His Name IIRC.

[broken one]

50 minutes ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

Well, its the first time that Baratheons have been Kings, so it makes sense that all of them would be the first of their names.

 

Depends on how close to the real world history it should go. Among kings of Poland there were Jan I, Jan II and Jan III of 3 different houses/dynasties, so I think there might have been general rule to keep the order of numbering, regardless of dynasty.

[Vaith]

6 minutes ago, broken one said:

Depends on how close to the real world history it should go. Among kings of Poland there were Jan I, Jan II and Jan III of 3 different houses/dynasties, so I think there might have been general rule to keep the order of numbering, regardless of dynasty.

The post-Aegon's Conquest Baratheons stuck to a more Andalic/First Men naming conventions more than the rather unique Valyrian names that the Targaryen had. If there had somehow been a Robert Targaryen? Then sure, Robert would be Robert II. If Robert named Joffrey Maegor for some reason? Then Joffrey would be Maegor II. But the Baratheons and Targaryens are unlikely to share first names.

[Vaith]

Oh, and to address a comment of OP about Jon... obligatory mention that he's most likely not called Aegon? Seriously, it would on the same level of in-character stupidity as the woman in The Sworn Sword who named both of her sons "Wat."

[Syl of Syl]

3 hours ago, Vaith said:

But the Baratheons and Targaryens are unlikely to share first names.

Agreed, but Joffrey and Tommen are more Lannister names than Baratheon - there were Kings of the Rock with both those names. I am guessing Robert didn't take much interest in the naming of his children. Lannister and Targaryen are even less likely to share first names.

[Vaith]

36 minutes ago, Syl of Syl said:

Agreed, but Joffrey and Tommen are more Lannister names than Baratheon - there were Kings of the Rock with both those names. I am guessing Robert didn't take much interest in the naming of his children. Lannister and Targaryen are even less likely to share first names.

I think the mainland region south of the Wall and north of the Red Mountains are likely to have more names in common, to be honest. Yeah, we know that Joffrey and Tommen were names of kings of the Rock, but there's also Joffrey Arryn, Joffrey Caswell, Joffrey Velaryon, Joffrey Lonmouth, Joffrey Doggett, Joffrey Dayne, and Tommen Costayne. I'd be less surprised to find a historical Joanna Baratheon or Renly Lannister than a Rhaenyra Lannister, for instance.

[broken one]

BTW I'm curious why 3 Freys were given Targaryen first names?

[Syl of Syl]

2 hours ago, Vaith said:

I'd be less surprised to find a historical Joanna Baratheon or Renly Lannister than a Rhaenyra Lannister, for instance.

But how about a Daeron Baratheon versus a Daeron Lannister? I'd be less surprised to find a Daeron or a Rhaenys Baratheon. While the Baratheons seem to have some names that sound Andal or even of First Men origin, they also have some that sound Valyrian in origin.

The point I was making was that Lannister naming conventions have less in common with Targaryen than Baratheon would. Sure, we don't see any names that are shared by a Baratheon and a Targaryen, but Baratheon is a Valyrian sounding name (like Velaryon, Qoherys, Baelish). Lannister is an Andal name. There are a lot of Joffreys, but I think that's more typically an Andal first name especially given Joffrey Doggett. Joffrey Velaryon was named after Joffrey Lonmouth.

 

 

[Vaith]

1 hour ago, Syl of Syl said:

But how about a Daeron Baratheon versus a Daeron Lannister? I'd be less surprised to find a Daeron or a Rhaenys Baratheon. While the Baratheons seem to have some names that sound Andal or even of First Men origin, they also have some that sound Valyrian in origin.

The point I was making was that Lannister naming conventions have less in common with Targaryen than Baratheon would. Sure, we don't see any names that are shared by a Baratheon and a Targaryen, but Baratheon is a Valyrian sounding name (like Velaryon, Qoherys, Baelish). Lannister is an Andal name. There are a lot of Joffreys, but I think that's more typically an Andal first name especially given Joffrey Doggett. Joffrey Velaryon was named after Joffrey Lonmouth.

 

 

Lannisters are definitely First Men — although there is an argument that Lann may have been an ancient Andal before the invasion — they had the customs of the First Men for a good while before adopting those of the Seven. 

Daeron and maybe Aeron are some exceptional names that could apply to both houses; generally though I think it’s very rare. 

I honestly don’t think the Baratheons ever kept Valyrian first names. The historical Baratheons we know of are called: Orys, Davos, Raymont, Rogar, Borys, Garon, Ronnal, Orryn, Boremund, Jocelyn, Borros, Cassandra, Ellyn, Floris, Maris, Olyver, Gowen, Lyonel, Ormund, Steffon, Robert, Stannis, Renly, Shireen. Can’t really see any Valyrian influence in those names.

[Syl of Syl]

1 hour ago, Vaith said:

Lannisters are definitely First Men — although there is an argument that Lann may have been an ancient Andal before the invasion — they had the customs of the First Men for a good while before adopting those of the Seven. 

Lannisters were kings when it was all First Men in Westeros, but George has stated in at least one interview I heard that Lannister is an Andal name. Which is why I think Lann the Clever being an Andal adventurer must be close to the truth. Where a name comes from is not the same as blood lines, since women don't convey their name on their children typically.

1 hour ago, Vaith said:

I honestly don’t think the Baratheons ever kept Valyrian first names. The historical Baratheons we know of are called: Orys, Davos, Raymont, Rogar, Borys, Garon, Ronnal, Orryn, Boremund, Jocelyn, Borros, Cassandra, Ellyn, Floris, Maris, Olyver, Gowen, Lyonel, Ormund, Steffon, Robert, Stannis, Renly, Shireen. Can’t really see any Valyrian influence in those names.

Perhaps, but I would say Orys and Borys at the least seem pretty Valyrian - that 'rys' ending is definitely a Valyrian marking. And while the Baratheons were quickly assimilated into the nobility of the Stormlands, they did always maintain closer ties to House Targaryen than Lannister ever did, so the possibility of a Targaryen name just seems more plausible to me.

[Vaith]

9 hours ago, Syl of Syl said:

Lannisters were kings when it was all First Men in Westeros, but George has stated in at least one interview I heard that Lannister is an Andal name. Which is why I think Lann the Clever being an Andal adventurer must be close to the truth. Where a name comes from is not the same as blood lines, since women don't convey their name on their children typically.

Perhaps, but I would say Orys and Borys at the least seem pretty Valyrian - that 'rys' ending is definitely a Valyrian marking. And while the Baratheons were quickly assimilated into the nobility of the Stormlands, they did always maintain closer ties to House Targaryen than Lannister ever did, so the possibility of a Targaryen name just seems more plausible to me.

Even if Lann was originally an Andal, then he and his male line descendants would have likely intermarried with the First Man daughters of the neighbouring kingdoms and in the Westerlands, and picked up many customs from them and from First Man advisors and so forth, before being reintroduced to Andal ways with an invasion. But frankly that's a moot point.

Harys Swyft also has a 'rys' ending, as does Arys Oakheart, does not mean they are Valyrians, and I'd only consider such names half-Valyrian even so, no nice long 'ae' vowels and so forth. Even the children of a Velaryon (Targaryen widow) and Baratheon seem quite typically 'Westerosi', really. I wouldn't consider the Arryns to usually possess Targaryenish names, but they had two royal marriages too (as well as the Martells) and one instance of an Arryn daughter with a Targaryen mother: Aemma Arryn, whose name seems appropriately Valyrianesque.

[Vaith]

17 hours ago, broken one said:

BTW I'm curious why 3 Freys were given Targaryen first names?

Possibly as a signifier that they are so above themselves and vainglorious that they're comparing themselves to royals. It's quite amusing actually, as you get a Rhaegar among the pre-Rebellion births, and a Cersei from the post-Rebellion births.