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Erkan12

The North is finally independent

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1 hour ago, Jaghen said:

Oh, sweet summer child...

 

Ever heard of lese-majeste ? 

Or, you know, of Daenerys burning down KL because reasons ? When dealing with a monarch, perceived slight is just as deadly as actual slight.

In the case of Sansa that's definitely an actual slight anyway.

By right of being Queen, she ais entitled to kill off those that conspire against her. Even imagined, Aerys had some fun with that. The Queen's words are law. That's how she got 150 random men executed earlier. Sure some guilty in the lot.

 

How could Daenerys forbid her from speaking about it without prior knowledge that  Sansa knows ? Not that such an order need be given, it's obvious. To this day whistle blowers have it hard, and we live in quite free societies these days. Back in the feudal day ? That was treason.

To the real sweet summer child,

Daenerys knew Sansa told Tyrion, because Jon already told Daenerys that he was going to tell the truth to his sisters. Jon already told her, and she did nothing like forbidding them to talk about it, so Daenerys knew everything but she did nothing, because she couldn't. Talking about the truth is not a crime. If anything, Daenerys is committing treason by usurping the right of the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. It's not the otherway around. Once again you've proven that your knowledge about this series is insufficient, previously you claimed on this same thread that Lannisters didn't care about the independence of the North, and I've proven it to you otherwise, and now this, just please stop already. 

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It seems like Daenerys you are delusional.

You never proved the Lannisters cared about the North. Or that Rob fought mainly for Independence.

There is no such thing as "Daenerys did nothing because she couldn't. talking about the truth is not a crime". Even today speaking about "the truth" when it obviously harms others and without sufficient proof (like here) is still punished by law, it's called defamation, look it up.

In Feudal law... well... off with her head.

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10 minutes ago, Jaghen said:

It seems like Daenerys you are delusional.

You never proved the Lannisters cared about the North. Or that Rob fought mainly for Independence.

There is no such thing as "Daenerys did nothing because she couldn't. talking about the truth is not a crime". Even today speaking about "the truth" when it obviously harms others and without sufficient proof (like here) is still punished by law, it's called defamation, look it up.

In Feudal law... well... off with her head.

Robb sends his peace terms to Lannisters, which is taking Sansa and Arya back and the independence of the North, Lannisters declined it. Why? So they wanted to give the independence of the North but not Sansa and Arya? Please. :dunno:

Who was the rightful heir to the iron throne? Jon, as both Varys and Tyrion said. How is talking about the rightful heir to the iron throne is a crime? It's not. Betraying Daenerys while they were on Daenerys's own council, (such as Varys) is a crime. Sansa is not on Daenerys council and she didn't even betray her by plotting against her. All she did was talking about truth, and like it or not, that's not a crime my real sweet summer child.

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4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

When did this happen?

When Daenerys arrived in Winterfell with Jon, Sansa said "Winterfell is yours." I know, thats one short sentence you can easily overlook, but given the fact, that the show left out very important and interesting conversations and reduced others to the absolute minimum, this small sentence is worth 10 minutes of Sansa kneeling and reciting oaths (and all that stuff).

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Going back one last time on the North, that's a stupid situation created by the show.

We know from their actions that they don't care about the North. To the end of Season 8 the only Lannister soldier that went there was Jaime to fight the NK. We know from their character that even if they cared about the North they would have been likely to accept this offer, at least temporarily, time to deal with their other enemies. 

But no, the guy turned up at Cersei which directly rejected his offer, because she is Queen of the Seven Kingdoms instead of Tywin, who sends a counteroffer book wise (and did send Eddard's bones in good faith without any deal). Seems Cersei learnt to not repeat her victories as she straight up lied to Daenerys instead of respectfully telling her to get the hell out. The show not being very faithful to itself it can be hard to make sense of it, in terms of characters.

 

Now to the meaty part.

Both Varys and Tyrion said Jon is the rightfull heir ? How so ? Does he inherit from Robert ? Joffrey ? Is he secretly Robert's trueborn son all along ? Robert+Lyanna=Jon finally revealed ? Where did they get the intel ? Oh right, from the Broken. If he said it, then it's true for sure !

Nevermind that he says he does not want to be King but did all he needed to become King.

 

Truth is, I don't even care about debating how true that is, IMO whether true or false, that is betrayal. Sansa is de facto a vassal of Daenerys. She serves the KotN, which swore fealty to her. She even admitted to it when Daenerys arrived in Winterfell. and yet she schemes. Can't help that, after all as DnD said earlier, she has come from pawn to player under the guidance of Littlefinger (funny thing as this was a thread on these forums years ago, before the show I believe, but DnD never really grasped what that meant).

When you serve a monarch, the truth does not matter. History is written by the victors after all. Daenerys died so Sansa is innocent. Had she lived things would likely have ended bad for plotters.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing.

That Daenerys is a good person who would never harm Sansa on the basis of her simply saying the truth, even though that truth could mean decades of civil war in the Seven Kingdoms ? Does she appear like that to you at the end while she burns the Tarlys because they don't bend the knee ?

That Daenerys would willingly let the North be independent ? Let Sansa rule it ?

That Sansa was candidly informing Tyrion without any further agenda ? Again first-season Sansa could have, she did one such that possibly cost her father's life (at least played a part), eighth-season Sansa ? After the whole Littlefinger drama and the dogfood Ramsay ? She could have told Brienne. Someone she trusts and known for her rightfulness. She went to Tyrion, known for his scheming skills. Then of course we have the chosen words to go along.

 

I don't know what more to say, if you still believe there is no treason at this point you will likely not see it in the foreseeable future so we are both losing our time, it's possible it's just a lexical debate at this point. Let's accept that the show did a poor job with story-lines and that the sense they make is quite limited. Likely not helped with the 2/3 of the last episodes with nothing but blank stares conveying acting talent (lol).

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Who is the official King/Queen at the beginning of season 8 ?  

Dany thinks the is, so think Jon, Yara, Theon, the unsullied and the Dothrakis, Varys and Tyrion.

Cersei also thinks she is, with support of the Lannisters troops mainly.

We don't know the Faiths position (is there a Faith anymore?).

Dany hasn't been crowned, and Cersei had been by her hand.

Then Jon's lineage is revealed, that makes him a third claimer even if he doesn't want to, the situation changes.

There are 3 claimers, and no rightful King/Queen : Jon has the best lineage, Dany has the strongest army and Cersei sit on the IT. 

So choosing one of the claimer isn't treason to the others for me. The only traitor is Varys who attempt to kill Dany.

 

 

Edited by valgrel

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Once you have already made a choice, making a new one is treason. And treason towards Jon as well, who could easily have gotten Jon executed in European Monarchies even if he asked for nothing.

In universe, making a choice (even at the start of the war) for one of the pretender did make you a traitor in the eyes of every other pretender. As they all claimed to be the Rightful one. Others were usurpers. From there, winner takes all. Stannis thinks this, Cercei thinks this, Daenerys thinks this. Balon doesn't give a shit and Rob doesn't want to be King (of the 7s).

 

How does Jon have the best lineage ? Gendry does. Daenerys is not being reinstated as descendant of the late king Aerys, but as a conqueror in her own rights. She is not skipping Jon's claim, she ignores claims altogether.

 

European countries are full of rightful kings, who have not seen their family in power for a millennia. This makes for fun banter but has absolutely no impact of people's lives. Targaryen inheritance would have been the same if Dany didn't come with Dragons, Unsullied, Dothrakis.

Edited by Jaghen

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1 hour ago, RYShh said:

Robb sends his peace terms to Lannisters, which is taking Sansa and Arya back and the independence of the North, Lannisters declined it. Why? So they wanted to give the independence of the North but not Sansa and Arya? Please.

Well, Robb wanted more than that. He wanted Arya and Sansa back, he wanted Independence for the North and he wanted Independence for the Riverlands (along with Ice and his fathers bones). And of course the Lannister declined (or played on time), because they didn't have Arya and claiming two of the Seven Kingdoms was to much. We simply don't know what would have happened if Robb's terms were more reasonable.

1 hour ago, RYShh said:

Who was the rightful heir to the iron throne? Jon, as both Varys and Tyrion said. How is talking about the rightful heir to the iron throne is a crime? It's not.

First, they didn't have any good proof for that. A book which mentions a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyana could be wrong and even if it was true, that doesn't imply that they had a child and that Jon is this child (since Eddard claimed he was his). And a weirdo claiming he dreamed about that is not convincing either. Second, even if they had enough evidence, Sansa shouldn't have told anybody on her own and first spoke about it with Daenerys.

 

1 hour ago, RYShh said:

All she did was talking about truth, and like it or not, that's not a crime my real sweet summer child.

Even in modern society there are confidential information, which cannot be shared freely (without committing a crime). You don't believe me? Ask Edward Snowden or other whistleblowers, who had very good reasons for sharing these confidential information (in contrast to Sansa).

Edited by Haskelltier

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Treason
-the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign
-a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state

Sansa and Sam don't fall into either of those categories. Sam is either a Night's Watch brother or maester and the NW/Maesters are independent of all the Kingdoms or he's from The Reach by being a Tarly. Dany was not his sovereign in either case. Sansa didn't do anything that defines the first point. Her state is the North and she was loyal to that. And she never violated the allegiance to Dany either. She opened the doors to WF for Dany, called her 'your grace', she called the state's banners. She didn't like what happened and she made it known but she never violated the allegiance. Not to mention that the North had adopted a more democratic way (like NW or Ironborn's Kingsmoot) when they made Jon the king as he had no feudal claim whatsoever on that title. The North didn't vote for Dany so technically they don't even have to view her as their sovereign.

The only debate about possible treason should be about Tyrion's, Jon's and Varys' actions. Varys is clear as he did try to kill the person he saw as his sovereign. Jon actually did kill the person he saw as his sovereign and Tyrion was the one who told him to do it.

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Sure because in ASOIAF world if a region decides to go Crimea without the support of a stronger power the country it was a part of will just let it slide and accept it. Makes perfect sense, thanks for clarifying. Not that it matters because the chosen leader swore fealty to the Queen. and everyone, even if grumbling a bit accepted it. Doesn't mean there won't be a rebellion later on, that's what treason is, and what Sansa was pushing for (on the request of Bran...).

 

The Nightwatch defends the Realm. The Maesters serve the Realm. Both the Reach and the North are part of the Seven Kingdoms. Both Sansa and Sam are officially serving Jon, and has such Daenerys.

There is no need to be an oath to betray someone in any case. If you cheat on your partner, even unmarried, he/she is going to take it bad (and possibly end your relationship). If you go and reveal your companies profits to your customers your boss is going to take it bad (and possibly end your career - even if what you said was true !).

If you go see your Queen's vassals to try and convince them she shouldn't rule, she is going to take it bad.

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@Haskelltier


Robb never said anything about Riverlands, 

This is his peace terms;

Spoiler

 

Robb: ''You're Ser Alton Lannister?''

Alton: ''I am, Your Grace.''

Robb: ''I offer your cousins peace if they meet my terms. First, your family must release my sisters. Second, my father's bones must be returned to us so he may rest beside his brother and sister in the crypts beneath Winterfell. And the remains of all those who died in his service must also be returned. Their families can honor them with proper funerals.

Alton ''- An honorable request, Your Grace. -''

Robb: ''Third Joffrey and the Queen Regent must renounce all claim to dominion of the North. From this time till the end of time, we are a free and independent kingdom. Neither Joffrey nor any of his men shall set foot in our lands again. If he disregards this command, he shall suffer the same fate as my father, only I don't need a servant to do my beheading for me.''

Alton: ''These are Your Grace, these are...''

Robb: ''These are my terms. If the Queen Regent and her son meet them, I'll give them peace. If not, I will litter the South with Lannister dead.'' (S02E01)

 

Robb then even said;

Spoiler

 

Freys: ''As restitution for this betrayal, he demands Harrenhal and all its attendant lands.''

Edmure: ''- I don't think that's-''

Robb: ''- We are fighting for the North. Harrenhal is not in the North. It is his once the war is over and we have no further strategic need for it.'' (S03E06)

 

Please follow better before making baseless claims. Unless you believe they didn't accept Robb's peace offer just because they don't have Arya, well then good luck with, I doubt anyone would believe that.

Once again, Daenerys fans denying the truth. Varys said Jon has a better claim. Tyrion said Jon has a better claim. Even Daenerys herself believed that which is why he wanted Jon to be silent, what are you arguing seriously? Be frank about it, so we won't waste our time with arguing with this.

Ok, I will laugh at that now, so you think telling the truth about Jon's parentage is a crime huh? I don't know what to tell you pal, I honestly don't believe you're being reasonable here.

Edited by RYShh

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Daenerys' fan :D

Couldn't be more wrong, but I didn't wait season 8 to dislike her. And it doesn't blind me to the obvious flaws in other characters.

 

Rob did demand the Riverlands, and Ice. But DnD didn't care about including these in the show which makes the Lannister (sorry - Cersei's) refusal even more stupid.

Both Varys and Tyrion were out of brain cells by then, there is no better claim than that of Gendry. Daenerys is counting on Right of Conquest, and she always have despite all her talks. The only ones that could potentially buy into that better claim, are Martells, as Doran was always trying to get back a Targaryen on the throne. But then he got offed because reasons. And they would have gone with the one most likely to succeed as well (you know, Dragons, countless Unsullieds and Dothrakis).

Edited by Jaghen

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2 minutes ago, Jaghen said:

Daenerys' fan :D

Couldn't be more wrong, but I didn't wait season 8 to dislike her. And it doesn't blind me to the obvious flaws in other characters.

 

Rob did demand the Riverlands, and Ice. But DnD didn't care about including these in the show which makes the Lannister refusal even more stupid.

Both Varys and Tyrion were out of brain cells by then, there is no better claim than that of Gendry. Daenerys is counting on Right of Conquest, and she always have despite all her talks. The only ones that could potentially buy into that better claim, are Martells, as Doran was always trying to get back a Targaryen on the throne. But then he got offed because reasons. And they would have gone with the one most likely to succeed as well (you know, Dragons, countless Unsullieds and Dothrakis).

Oh, then I think you and Haskeltier guy aren't serious because I don't want to think the other option. You and Haskeltier insisting on telling the truth about Jon's parentage is a crime. Sorry but this is absurd. Not even Daenerys blamed Sansa or Tyrion for treason, but somehow you guys believe that was treason against Daenerys... It's funny really.

This is show forums. There are hundreds of things happened differently in the books, we are not discussing all of them in here right? So stop it please.

Oh Varys and Tyrion were idiots, and you know better than them? Because? You say you're not Daenerys fan too, I honestly don't know why a person believes otherwise and calls them idiots if you're not biased towards Daenerys. I honestly don't know. :dunno:

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35 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Sansa and Sam don't fall into either of those categories. Sam is either a Night's Watch brother or maester and the NW/Maesters are independent of all the Kingdoms or he's from The Reach by being a Tarly. Dany was not his sovereign in either case. Sansa didn't do anything that defines the first point. Her state is the North and she was loyal to that. And she never violated the allegiance to Dany either. She opened the doors to WF for Dany, called her 'your grace', she called the state's banners. She didn't like what happened and she made it known but she never violated the allegiance. Not to mention that the North had adopted a more democratic way (like NW or Ironborn's Kingsmoot) when they made Jon the king as he had no feudal claim whatsoever on that title. The North didn't vote for Dany so technically they don't even have to view her as their sovereign.

The only debate about possible treason should be about Tyrion's, Jon's and Varys' actions. Varys is clear as he did try to kill the person he saw as his sovereign. Jon actually did kill the person he saw as his sovereign and Tyrion was the one who told him to do it.

Totally. :agree:

Edited by RYShh

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5 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Oh, then I think you and Haskeltier guy aren't serious because I don't want to think the other option. You and Haskeltier insisting on telling the truth about Jon's parentage is a crime. Sorry but this is absurd. Not even Daenerys blamed Sansa or Tyrion for treason, but somehow you guys believe that was treason against Daenerys... It's funny really.

This is show forums. There are hundreds of things happened differently in the books, we are not discussing all of them in here right? So stop it please.

Oh Varys and Tyrion were idiots, and you know better than them? Because? You say you're not Daenerys fan too, I honestly don't know why a person believes otherwise and calls them idiots if you're not biased towards Daenerys. I honestly don't know. :dunno:

The show doesn't respect itself enough to take coherent understanding from it.

We see that the Lannisters never went North, which tells me they never cared about it (I mean Siberia wasn't that important before Gas and Oil were extracted there). We also see they refused the peace offer, which tells you they cared about it.

The show contradicts itself. Like for the bells. Season 2 they could mean anything but Surrender. Season 8 they mean only one thing, Surrender.

 

As for calling Varys and Tyrion idiots, because they were ?

Viserys was not the rightful ruller of the Seven Kingdoms. Robert Baratheon first of his name was. By right of Conquest. Daenerys is not the righful heir. She is a conqueror. Like Robert. Like Aegon. If anything, Jon is HER heir, is she stays absent descendant and if he is proven Targ.

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Just now, Jaghen said:

The show doesn't respect itself enough to take coherent understanding from it.

We see that the Lannisters never went North, which tells me they never cared about it (I mean Siberia wasn't that important before Gas and Oil were extracted there). We also see they refused the peace offer, which tells you they cared about it.

The show contradicts itself. Like for the bells. Season 2 they could mean anything but Surrender. Season 8 they mean only one thing, Surrender.

 

As for calling Varys and Tyrion idiots, because they were ?

Viserys was not the rightful ruller of the Seven Kingdoms. Robert Baratheon first of his name was. By right of Conquest. Daenerys is not the righful heir. She is a conqueror. Like Robert. Like Aegon. If anything, Jon is HER heir, is she stays absent descendant and if he is proven Targ.

All I see your personal headcanon, none of the things that you say happened in the actual show. I would respect your personal opinion if you said it was just your personal opinion. Instead you're dictating your personal opinion as facts as if actually happened in the show.

In the show I say Robb wanted only the independence of the North and his sisters, you say no, because the show sucks.

In the show I say Tyrion and Varys said Jon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and you say no, because the show sucks.

In the show I say Daenerys never blamed Sansa and Tyrion for treason, you say no she is a traitor because the show sucks.

I would agree if you simply say the show sucks, but what you do is denying the things that actually happened in the show, and pretending it as if you know better the show dynamics than the people in the show.  :dunno:

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13 minutes ago, RYShh said:

All I see your personal headcanon, none of the things that you say happened in the actual show. I would respect your personal opinion if you said it was just your personal opinion. Instead you're dictating your personal opinion as facts as if actually happened in the show.

In the show I say Robb wanted only the independence of the North and his sisters, you say no, because the show sucks.

In the show I say Tyrion and Varys said Jon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and you say no, because the show sucks.

In the show I say Daenerys never blamed Sansa and Tyrion for treason, you say no she is a traitor because the show sucks.

I would agree if you simply say the show sucks, but what you do is denying the things that actually happened in the show, and pretending it as if you know better the show dynamics than the people in the show.  :dunno:

Disagree, again.

In the show Robb wanted independence for the North. That is true. It was the reason he went to war, that is false.

In the Show Tyrion and Varys say Jon is the rightful heir. That is true. He is  the rightful heir.That is false. Please take a look at how succession work, both in show and in real life, ignore the book all you want.

In the show Daenerys didn't blame Sansa and Tyrion for treason. That is true. Sansa and Tyrion are thus no traitors. That is false. Daenerys may or may not know it, but we as viewers do. She also may have had reasons to spare them which she did not share with us (every word counts lately). Or do you dispute that Sansa had hopes of seeing Daenerys removed when she went to talk with Tyrion ?

 

Everything I spoke about hapens in the show.

I mentioned the books as they were already by someone else and as that was just driving a point home, but it was not needed in any way.

 

That is why we spent the last two pages debating of what treason is, not because of my so called dislike of the show.

As for the show sucking, I didn't say that. I said there is no coherence. Photography is beautiful, musics are majestic. I watched every episode, and enjoyed them. I didn't feel betrayed by this last season like some did, as I realized by then it would not be coherent, absent book material. I made my peace with it long ago.

 

Edited by Jaghen

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9 minutes ago, Jaghen said:

Disagree, again.

In the show Robb wanted independence for the North. That is true. It was the reason he went to war, that is false.

In the Show Tyrion and Varys say Jon is the rightful heir. That is true. He is  the rightful heir.That is false. Please take a look at how succession work, both in show and in real life, ignore the book all you want.

In the show Daenerys didn't blame Sansa and Tyrion for treason. That is true. Sansa and Tyrion are thus no traitors. That is false. Daenerys may or may not know it, but we as viewers do. Or do you dispute that Sansa had hopes of seeing Daenerys removed when she went to talk with Tyrion ?

 

That is why we spent the last two pages debating of what treason is, not because of my so called dislike of the show.

As for the show sucking, I didn't say that. I said there is no coherence. Photography is beautiful, musics are majestic. I watched every episode, and enjoyed them. I didn't feel betrayed by this last season like some did, as I realized by then it would not be coherent, absent book material. I made my peace with it long ago.

 

It was the reason why Robb continued to fight, it wasn't the vengeance. I hope you will not say Robb is a liar and he wouldn't keep his word once the Lannister gave the independence of the North and his sisters back.

As I said, Tyrion and Varys said their piece. And before them it was Sam. And finally it was Daenerys, who wanted Jon to be silent about it, because she knew Jon (a.k.a Aegon VI) was the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, not her.

Yes it's because you're denying the things that happened in the show.

Edited by RYShh

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The fact that everyone says he is the rightful heir doesn't make it so. It's just to push a political agenda, like it happened in the whole Europe during the Middle Age.

Hey why wouldn't that guy be king ?

After all he is a direct male line descendant (although cadet) while that king we have is only descended from a King's daughter ! He is the rightful King !

 

Let's take that slowly, tell me where our opinion diverge :

Aerys was King, Rhaegar was his rightfull heir.

Rhaegar and his kids died, Viserys was made rightfull heir - important as Aerys chose that, hence skipping Jon eventhough unknowingly so even if Aerys had won the war, Viserys would be rightful heir, not Jon.

Aerys lost the Kingdom to Robert, all hail King Bob.

Rob doesn't have a child yet, Stannis is his rightful heir.

Rob has kids officially his, Joffrey is rightful heir.

Robs kids aren't his. Stannis his rightfull heir.

Both Stannis and Renly are dead, I have no idea who is the rightful heir (but neither Jon nor Dany who do not have any Baratheon ancestry).

Daenerys legitimize Gendry, making him de facto Rightful Heir. Of a monarch line that abdicated the throne.

Daenerys conquers the throne, she doesn't have kids, her rightful heir, is her nephew Jon.

 

Maybe that was what they meant after all. If Dany bites the dust, Jon inherits from her.

Edited by Jaghen

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1 hour ago, Jaghen said:

The Nightwatch defends the Realm. The Maesters serve the Realm. Both the Reach and the North are part of the Seven Kingdoms. Both Sansa and Sam are officially serving Jon, and has such Daenerys. 

The NW is not subject to the Realm and neither are Maesters. That's why the NW is not allowed to interfere with anything that happens south of their lands, the South aka the Realm. They are for all intends and purposes independent. They vote for their own leader (Lord Commander) and they have The Gift as their land. The Maesters are independent too which is why Dany's comment about changing things there to help out Sam in 8x01 are bonkers, girl knows nothing about Westeros apparently. And Dany was not The Reach's sovereign at any point. The only thing Dany conquered was Dragonstone because it was empty for no reason. And the North was given to her by a guy with a cramp in his pants. These are the only places that Dany was the sovereign of. All of this was in the show lol.

Edited by Mystical

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