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Techmaester

A season of Jons betrayal

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14 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

Ok, now I'm sure it's trolling.

Surely Jon should be overly loyal to a group of people who waged war onto his actual family, killing his father and hiding his ancestry from him. Surely when Jon meets his closest living relative he should immediately betray her for the sake of the people who viewed him as Neds bastard and treated him as such. Surely he should kill his closest living relative and love interest because she burned down a city who did nothing but wrong him.

There aren't many characters as incompetent, pathetic and backstabbing as Jon this season. If he was going to tell his ancestry it should have been while hand in hand with Dany after the burning of Kings Landing.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, Daenerys realised that her "birthright" just evaporated. She wanted to cheat the people and to take a throne that was not hers. He held tight to her brainwashed childhood dreams instead of taking reality a bit more serious. If birthright was so important to her, she should have supported Jon. Marry him and rule together or whatever. But not trying to convince him to keep a secret from his closest family.

Everybody has the right to go for the throne as long he/she was power and armies. 

Cersei didn't gave her the throne by good will because she was a Targaryen. 

So how is this cheating when in reality this is a matter of war and who wins the throne? How is this cheating when Jon has stepped aside actually given up his claim? 

In the same or even worst frame of mind Bran and Sansa should both step aside since Jon was the rightful air. 

LOL his dear, dear family!!

Edited by Nightwish

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7 hours ago, JagLover said:

She was his queen, she commands and her obeys, that is how feudalism works. Ned kept the secret for decades and Jon couldn't keep it for a few days.

So yes as he had sworn fealty to her he betrayed her as much as Vary's did.

 

6 hours ago, Mikkel said:

It wasn't couched as a command, Dany tried to manipulate him instead, fearing that an outright command might spark rebellion. Which I found rather pathetic on her part incidentally. But it was driven by that potent mixture of Messiah Complex and ruthless ambition that she had developed.

If she had commanded Jon would havent told Sansa and Arya. I personally think she had no right to tell him not tell his sisters. 

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59 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

So how is this cheating 

Talking about birthright is cheating, after she knows Jon's true heritage. And she repeats it in the war council in E4. She cheats.

She can of course simple conquer the throne. Or they tell the truth and Jon declines the throne. Or the marry and rule together. many, many solutions.

But talking about birthright when you know there is no birthright anymore, is cheating.

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2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Formally yes, emotionally not so much.

He has grown up with the Stark and her sisters feel and recognise him as brother and he feels them to be his sisters. 

A simple bloodline aunt/nephew thing that was just revealed shortly before. He has problems kissing her because of the relation, but he has not that familiarity, trust or deep bonding to her that comes with growing up together.

Anyway, Jon has to decide between the "Stark family pack" and Daenerys. Phrase it as you wish.

Yes, Daenerys realised that her "birthright" just evaporated. She wanted to cheat the people and to take a throne that was not hers. He held tight to her brainwashed childhood dreams instead of taking reality a bit more serious. If birthright was so important to her, she should have supported Jon. Marry him and rule together or whatever. But not trying to convince him to keep a secret from his closest family.

Did she? The beat a common enemy. An enemy to all of them, not just to Jon. 

You don't think it requires balls to do this?! Really?

She would probably have been happy to marry him but he refused to even touch her after finding out she was his aunt(which didn't make sense given the timeline). Her fight against the night king could have been postponed and she could have simply left and cleaned up after everyone died like Cersi attempted to. She didn't because of that love(and fundamentally moral nature) which Jon starting from episode one failed to reciprocate.

I don't think it took balls to take the easiest, lowest effort, most dishonorable path which he took. He knew she would let him get close to her, he knew he could easily exploit her one weakness which was her love. 

Jons history is one of rejecting who he is because of his fear of responsibility and it ends in the way the series started, him running away into irrelevance. It's not character development it's regression.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

She would probably have been happy to marry him but he refused to even touch her after finding out she was his aunt(which didn't make sense given the timeline)

I don't think she would have wanted to share the top position, but she might have wanted to be a real couple.

And yes, Jon not reciprocating her affections was a turn-down for her and worsened the situation. Jon's behaviour contributed to her snapping.

21 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

I don't think it took balls to take the easiest, lowest effort, most dishonorable path which he took. He knew she would let him get close to her, he knew he could easily exploit her one weakness which was her love. 

Here we simply have to agree to disagree. I am sure it was not easy for him to do so. 

21 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Jons history is one of rejecting who he is because of his fear of responsibility and it ends in the way the series started, him running away into irrelevance. It's not character development it's regression.

Jon's arc is tragic and Jon's personality is that of misunderstood honor, of wanting the right by failing to do right. Why do you expect every character to have a great arc of redemption and development. Is that your experience from real-life? Wouldn't that by Hollywoodish?

One point of development, though: Eventually he leaves with the Free Folk, abandoning duty and old-style honor again. At least he learned a little bit.

Edited by Kajjo

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Talking about birthright is cheating, after she knows Jon's true heritage. And she repeats it in the war council in E4. She cheats.

She can of course simple conquer the throne. Or they tell the truth and Jon declines the throne. Or the marry and rule together. many, many solutions.

But talking about birthright when you know there is no birthright anymore, is cheating.

Jon has already declined the throne. If the others know it or not, doesn't change the deal between them. 

Jon in E4 the war council is present but more than this totally stands up for her claim, after he has no use for his own: The Northern forces will honor their promises to the Queen of the 7 Kingdoms. 

Edited by Nightwish

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2 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Jon has already declined the throne. If the others know it or not, doesn't change the deal between them. 

Serious? Really? My goodness. Believe what you want, but retracting to technicalities does not analyse our characters.

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I think we see Jon become Jaime - just a little late.  We are shown in the beginning this bastard with a strong sense of honor and Jaime this high born knight with seemingly no sense of honor.  Then we watch the two of them through the story and maybe start to realize they are far more alike then we would want to admit.  

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Just now, RFL said:

Then we watch the two of them through the story and maybe start to realize they are far more alike then we would want to admit.  

Hm, I don't see them a alike. They have different personalities, different motivations.

But what we see is that both develop into a less clear character. Jaime adapts knightly behavior and honor and Jon needs to give up on that strong urge of sometimes misunderstood honor. They both develop towards middle ground.

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Just now, Kajjo said:

Serious? Really? My goodness. Believe what you want, but retracting to technicalities does not analyse our characters.

Yes seriously really...

He has declined his claim by saying to her: "I don't want the throne", "I will refuse, you are my Queen" some scenes before the war council where he openly calls her Queen of the 7 Kingdoms in the War Council. 

Sure its a technicality to remember the script correctly and not saying half-true statements because you believe he should a claim a throne, he doesn't want :rofl:

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3 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

He has declined his claim by saying to her:

I know the script. But she talked about her birthright all the time and she didn't adjust it. 

Birthright ist not about Jon declining some minutes before. You know what Daenerys means. Keep fair. 

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I think Jon’s decision to kill Daenerys came right near the end.  She was unwilling to admit in any way that her actions had been wrong.   No mercy for anyone. She was going to execute Tyrion and anyone who had supported or fought for Cersei.   Power had finally corrupted her and when she asked Jon to join her on her world conquest I couldn’t help but think of that scene in Star Wars where Darth Vader was asking Luke to join him on the Dark Side of The Force.  He knew she was beyond redemption at that point and had to be stopped.   I will admit the writing was rushed and forced in the final season but I agree with Jon’s decision. 

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4 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Yes seriously really...

He has declined his claim by saying to her: "I don't want the throne", "I will refuse, you are my Queen" some scenes before the war council where he openly calls her Queen of the 7 Kingdoms in the War Council. 

Sure its a technicality to remember the script correctly and not saying half-true statements because you believe he should a claim a throne, he doesn't want :rofl:

That he declared her queen of the seven kingdoms makes it even worse since he has explicitly acknowledged Danys rule of the North.

Jon, truly a shit character in every way.

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5 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

I think Jon’s decision to kill Daenerys came right near the end.  She was unwilling to admit in any way that her actions had been wrong.   No mercy for anyone. She was going to execute Tyrion and anyone who had supported or fought for Cersei.   Power had finally corrupted her and when she asked Jon to join her on her world conquest I couldn’t help but think of that scene in Star Wars where Darth Vader was asking Luke to join him on the Dark Side of The Force.  He knew she was beyond redemption at that point and had to be stopped.   I will admit the writing was rushed and forced in the final season but I agree with Jon’s decision. 

I'd have burned Tyrion also, he continually advanced his family at her expense(in spite of them attempting to kill him).

There is no evidence she wouldn't have calmed down after a while, to even make a judgment she would need to rule for years. Ultimately it was Jon's responsibility to see it through and help guide Dany, not decide to flip sides when it became unpleasant for him. This isn't even considering who he was, which was a Targaryen which he only acknowledged to the extent it hurt his relationship with Dany.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I know the script. But she talked about her birthright all the time and she didn't adjust it. 

Birthright ist not about Jon declining some minutes before. You know what Daenerys means. Keep fair. 

No, she didn't adjust because in their private conversation he had declined it and he persisted on that. So he passed her the torch and acknowledged her right to claim the throne. Their is no cheating in that. 

 

 

Edited by Nightwish

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3 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

I'd have burned Tyrion also, he continually advanced his family at her expense(in spite of them attempting to kill him).

There is no evidence she wouldn't have calmed down after a while, to even make a judgment she would need to rule for years. Ultimately it was Jon's responsibility to see it through and help guide Dany, not decide to flip sides when it became unpleasant for him. This isn't even considering who he was, which was a Targaryen which he only acknowledged to the extent it hurt his relationship with Dany.

Sorry....I just think that is wishful thinking that she would calm down. In her Nuremberg speech she mentioned going to Winterfell and Dorne.  How could Jon accept her burning down Winterfell and killing his family?  That is totally unrealistic to think Jon would ever find that acceptable.  He may be a Targaryen now but he grew up with wolves and more closely identifies with them.

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8 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

No, she didn't adjust because in their private conversation he had declined it and he persisted on that. So he passed her the torch and acknowledged her right to claim the throne. Their is no cheating in that. 

Let's agree to disagree. For me the show wanted intentionally to show exactly that: Daenerys vlaiming birthright when there was none anymore. She is a bit softer about it in the war council in E4, too. I am sure. Feel free to feel different.

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1 minute ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

.I just think that is wishful thinking that she would calm down.

Well, she very clearly threatened Winterfell and Dorne in her victory speech. That was a clear threat directed at Sansa and Jon and Arya understood it that way, too, so this is how the show intends it and wants us to understand it.

Daenerys was on a rampage and the next step would have been to attack and "set free" Winterfell. 

Remember, how Jon is not convinced by Tyrion in his cell? Then Tyrion's last attempt is to make Jon consider his sisters and then Jon decides to kill Daenerys. It is absolutely clear that Daenerys would have attacked Winterfell and killed Sansa.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Sorry....I just think that is wishful thinking that she would calm down. In her Nuremberg speech she mentioned going to Winterfell and Dorne.  How could Jon accept her burning down Winterfell and killing his family?  That is totally unrealistic to think Jon would ever find that acceptable.  He may be a Targaryen now but he grew up with wolves and more closely identifies with them.

If they didn't accept her rule, then it would be consistent for her to do it and as Jon said himself she is Queen. Why shouldn't she? She was largely responsible for the defense of winterfell and the continent as a whole. Her investment should guarantee their submission to her or at least give her years of ruling.

By the way it's clear Sansa wanted to start shit from the start of season  8. If Dany have invaded it would be justified.

Edited by Techmaester

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