Tennis Volume 8: Is a FedEx delivery coming?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, baxus said:

Well, if we're looking at it like that and agree with your point of Djokovic reaching his prime in 2011, then he kicked both Federer and Nadal's ass since then.

Not Nadal's as much, but yes with Feds. 2011-14 is pretty even for the two in major tournaments, but after that it was one sided, but again, Rafa was pretty clearly declining by that point. I thought he was finished around 2016, yet he's chugged along and been able to win a few tournaments after that. You're right to say he should have adapted his style of play as it was overly taxing, however that didn't happen.

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Also, if we're going to diminish Djokovic's success because "Federer got old" then why stop there? Why not diminish Federer's success before Nadal and Djokovic stepped up? I'll tell you why. Because that's stupid and we don't do that. I mean, are Roddick and Hewitt really better than Thiem, Zverev, Medvedev etc.?

I did specifically say that if you want to argue why Feds isn't the GOAT the best starting point is to highlight that he got an easy head start beating up on inferior competition.

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Don't forget that Djokovic is the only one of the three who has won each GS at least twice. And, since he did win Wimbledon 5 times, I'm not sure Federer would really be "running away with this" either. Except if he had stocked up on those GS titles before Nadal and Djokovic came to the scene. Either way, there's no point in discussing this. Tournaments are what they are, surfaces are what they are, and everyone knows that and has to prepare for them to the best of their abilities.

Yes, if you're making a pro-Joker argument you can bring up diversity of wins, and just the same if you want to argue against him you can point out that feat was only achieved once Nadal and Feds were past their primes and no longer on his level. One of the main reasons I think Rafa has a good argument for being the best of the bunch is that he never got a prolonged period where he wasn't dealing with another all-time great, let alone two as the heart of his prime is when Feds was still in his and when Joker had clearly ascended. But again, this is all nitpicking between what are clearly the three best men's players ever, and it may be a very long time until we see anyone who can rival their greatness. 

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Djokovic had to deal with Nadal and Federer well in their prime for quite a bit of the last decade and he beat them repeatedly. If the two of them don't think they have what it takes to compete at the highest level, they should retire. If not, "they're on the decline" is no more a valid excuse than "but he wasn't in his prime" would be for Djokovic losing to them in the early years of his career.

They should retire when they're ready to, but in sports it's widely acknowledged that wins against people who are either before or past their primes aren't as meaningful as beating them when they're at their best. It's why, for example, in boxing Mayweather is rather overrated because he beat a lot of big time names, but only after they were past their primes. Those wins aren't as impressive as they sound. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

After a close first set loss, the cyborg is reminding you why he's got you just where he wants you when he's down love-40. That return breaks souls. 

[Arakan]

I don’t know if does it on purpose but it’s cruel   

[Arakan]

9 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Whatever, shes English until she fucks up, then she's Canadian, Romanian, Chinese, wherever.  

Joking aside, she's lived here since she was 2? She's English. 

 

Jokes aside…it was a joke. Remember well how Andy was always referred to as the Scot in the UK press when he choked but suddenly became the Brit when he started to win the big prizes . 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I'll be curious to see the numbers after the match, but Novak has barely wasted any clean shots into the net while Berrettini keeps making that mistake. Feels like the giant difference in the match. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

To me 2021 Novak is clearly not on the Cyborg level of 2015 Novak anymore. He still does enough to win, but has odd lapses where he loses silly points he should not be losing. 

Anyway, Zverev is going to be tough, but Novak is a different challenge in a best out of 5 sets match than in a best out of 3 like the Olympics.

Gonna be a good contest.

[Arakan]

21 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'll be curious to see the numbers after the match, but Novak has barely wasted any clean shots into the net while Berrettini keeps making that mistake. Feels like the giant difference in the match. 

I like Mateo but he simply is a level below Zverev, Tsitsipas and Medvedev. I won’t call him serve bot but as soon as he is forced into rallies you got him. Also he should work at his endurance, he simply isn’t fit enough for 5 setters (of course that’s also down to his physique, IMO he is too muscular and bulky).

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, Arakan said:

I like Mateo but he simply is a level below Zverev, Tsitsipas and Medvedev. I won’t call him serve bot but as soon as he is forced into rallies you got him. Also he should work at his endurance, he simply isn’t fit enough for 5 setters (of course that’s also down to his physique, IMO he is too muscular and bulky).

Agreed. There is a lot of hype about him - probably because of his Italian good looks, but he has not challenged Novak in the way that the other 3 (and Thiem) have.

[Arakan]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

To me 2021 Novak is clearly not on the Cyborg level of 2015 Novak anymore. He still does enough to win, but has odd lapses where he loses silly points he should not be losing. 

Anyway, Zverev is going to be tough, but Novak is a different challenge in a best out of 5 sets match than in a best out of 3 like the Olympics.

Gonna be a good contest.

Yep. This is his swan song. Roger is done, Rafa as well (maybe one last FO) and Novak isn’t far behind. I expect another good season in 2022 (max 2 slams) and 2 years of farewell tour basically in 2023/24. The little 3 will take over. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 minute ago, Arakan said:

Yep. This is his swan song. Roger is done, Rafa as well (maybe one last FO) and Novak isn’t far behind. I expect another good season in 2022 (max 2 slams) and 2 years of farewell tour basically in 2023/24. The little 3 will take over. 

Pretty much this.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

To me 2021 Novak is clearly not on the Cyborg level of 2015 Novak anymore. He still does enough to win, but has odd lapses where he loses silly points he should not be losing. 

No, he's not on that same level, but no one else is either. They key is Joker took his biggest weakness and made it his greatest strength. He's still the most dangerous player to face when needing to dig himself out of a serious hole, and I still expect him to do it more times than not. It's rather incredible. 

Related to the conversations about playing in their primes, does anyone have a good link that compares the three's service speed year over year since Feds broke out? 

[Free Northman Reborn]

I do think Rafa has a good chance of getting to 21 Slams, purely based on his French Open dominance. So Djokovic still has a lot to play for if he wants to cement his legacy. And it’s getting tougher each year.

He looks mentally tired to me. Maybe a good break until the Australian Open will rejuvenate him. It’s been a heck of a year.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, Arakan said:

I like Mateo but he simply is a level below Zverev, Tsitsipas and Medvedev. I won’t call him serve bot but as soon as he is forced into rallies you got him. Also he should work at his endurance, he simply isn’t fit enough for 5 setters (of course that’s also down to his physique, IMO he is too muscular and bulky).

He looked really good early on in the longer rallies, clearly demonstrating a power advantage, but after the first set he was tentative, and that's when it became a problem. 

7 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Yep. This is his swan song. Roger is done, Rafa as well (maybe one last FO) and Novak isn’t far behind. I expect another good season in 2022 (max 2 slams) and 2 years of farewell tour basically in 2023/24. The little 3 will take over. 

Rog is done, and has been done for years. We just got lucky to enjoy a few unexpected Slams. Same has been true for Rafa to a lesser extent sans the FO. I think he can maybe get one or two more GS, but that's probably it. Novak may get to 25 with a few more years of good health and no clear successor. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

He looked really good early on in the longer rallies, clearly demonstrating a power advantage, but after the first set he was tentative, and that's when it became a problem. 

Rog is done, and has been done for years. We just got lucky to enjoy a few unexpected Slams. Same has been true for Rafa to a lesser extent sans the FO. I think he can maybe get one or two more GS, but that's probably it. Novak may get to 25 with a few more years of good health and no clear successor. 

Look, as much as I’m a big Novak fan and like to imagine him reaching ever greater heights, these days I go into every Slam uncertain as to the outcome. 

If he really gets to 25 it would be extraordinary. 

[Arakan]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

He looked really good early on in the longer rallies, clearly demonstrating a power advantage, but after the first set he was tentative, and that's when it became a problem. 

Rog is done, and has been done for years. We just got lucky to enjoy a few unexpected Slams. Same has been true for Rafa to a lesser extent sans the FO. I think he can maybe get one or two more GS, but that's probably it. Novak may get to 25 with a few more years of good health and no clear successor. 

That’s the point with Mateo, he should focus more on endurance strength and less on power strength. He looks like a gym bro . This might be ok for Master tournaments but I cannot see him win a slam this way. Physical fatigue leads to mental fatigue leads to stupid mistakes. 

I think Novak can get to 23 but we‘ll see. I really got the feeling that Medvedev and Zverev really got their shit together this year mentally speaking, especially Zverev. Tsitsipas on the other hand should humble himself a bit. Self-belief is important but with him it leads to arrogance and he loses focus. I re-watched the FO final some time ago. He should have never lost that. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Look, as much as I’m a big Novak fan and like to imagine him reaching ever greater heights, these days I go into every Slam uncertain as to the outcome. 

If he really gets to 25 it would be extraordinary. 

If you made me pick between a). 22 b). 25 or c). 28, I'd take 25. I see no reason to expect him to lose the USO, and if he's healthy the next two-three seasons he should win multiple titles. Rafa at FO 2022 may be an issue, but he should be the favorite most other times. There's just not anyone under him to challenge him consistently, and that's why in part myself and others have argued that he's benefited from that in the total title count. That's not to take anything away from him, but if you took either Nadal or Feds and made them the youngest and healthiest of the Big Three they'd be favored to win most tournaments over the next few years as well.

[Arakan]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

If you made me pick between a). 22 b). 25 or c). 28, I'd take 25. I see no reason to expect him to lose the USO, and if he's healthy the next two-three seasons he should win multiple titles. Rafa at FO 2022 may be an issue, but he should be the favorite most other times. There's just not anyone under him to challenge him consistently, and that's why in part myself and others have argued that he's benefited from that in the total title count. That's not to take anything away from him, but if you took either Nadal or Feds and made them the youngest and healthiest of the Big Three they'd be favored to win most tournaments over the next few years as well.

I feel you really do underestimate Zverev and Medvedev. And then there is a rejuvenated Thiem, Shapovalov, FAA, Sinner is coming strong, Tsitsipas will always be there or there about and of course the surprise box Rafa…

2022 will be a brutally stacked field. If Novak gets two slams (AO, W) I would call it a fantastic season for him.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, Arakan said:

That’s the point with Mateo, he should focus more on endurance strength and less on power strength. He looks like a gym bro . This might be ok for Master tournaments but I cannot see him win a slam this way. Physical fatigue leads to mental fatigue leads to stupid mistakes. 

I disagree, but that's my own bias. I was really drawn to Nadal and Serena because they showed that someone with a muscular build could dominate the sport. Having a similar build tended to make me feel like tennis wasn't for me when I was coming up as an athlete.

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I think Novak can get to 23 but we‘ll see. I really got the feeling that Medvedev and Zverev really got their shit together this year mentally speaking, especially Zverev. Tsitsipas on the other hand should humble himself a bit. Self-belief is important but with him it leads to arrogance and he loses focus. I re-watched the FO final some time ago. He should have never lost that. 

I just don't see it. novak at the very least should dominate 2022, and I'm sure he'll win a few titles after that assuming he wants to hang around. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, Arakan said:

I feel you really do underestimate Zverev and Medvedev. And then there is a rejuvenated Thiem, Shapovalov, FAA, Sinner is coming strong, Tsitsipas will always be there or there about and of course the surprise box Rafa…

2022 will be a brutally stacked field. If Novak gets two slams (AO, W) I would call it a fantastic season for him.

Zev and Mev are good, but it just feels like we keep hearing how they're close.

I've become a huge fan of FAA this tournament, and will be rooting hard for him. And to disagree with your prior post, he actually needs to add a bit more muscle, but his game has looked incredible so far over the last few months. 

[Arakan]

Maybe it’s my own age speaking (turned 40 this year) but regeneration gets harder and harder with each passing year and you lose strength and endurance no matter how much you push it (even compared to 5 years ago). And of course one nasty injury sets you back two or even three times longer than in my peak (25-30). So in other words I emphasize with the old guys . @Tywin et al.