Rose of Red Lake Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 1 hour ago, frenin said: More like the fantasy trope facing reality, Egg could've get the support he needed for his reforms if he ever brought himself to force his children to follow his lead, like his son Jaeharys quite literally do for worse obviously. The fact that he seemed unable to conpromise and rather the shorcut that dragons are speaks for itself. The man wanted it all without giving up nothing and he got burned, quite literally. It's telling that his own sons couldn't get behind his own reform to end incest marriages. One of them even forces his daughter and son to marry because of a prophecy. Something went wrong in the parenting and in the adulting... 2 hours ago, Elegant Woes said: The tragedy of Summerhall was the beginning of the end for the Targaryen reign. And just like him Dany will set things in motion that will put an end to the Targaryen bloodline. She's the Last Dragon. Agreed, there are a lot of similarities here. I'm still not over how Summerhall, which was supposed to be symbolic of a peace between two warring factions, gets destroyed and only stood for 90 years. How symbolic. Targaryens (and Valyrians) can't keep their buildings standing. If the nuclear destruction theme wasn't obvious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wall Flower Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 4 hours ago, frenin said: More like the fantasy trope facing reality, Egg could've get the support he needed for his reforms if he ever brought himself to force his children to follow his lead, like his son Jaeharys quite literally do for worse obviously. The fact that he seemed unable to conpromise and rather the shorcut that dragons are speaks for itself. The man wanted it all without giving up nothing and he got burned, quite literally. I think it points to the difficulty of bringing in any reform that disturbs the status quo and/or comes up against entrenched vested interests that don't want to share or lose their power and privilege. That's good intentions coming up against reality. Doesn't mean Egg was wrong to want to improve the lives of the smallfolk (that's his job as king) or that the so-called noble lords were right to oppose reform. It's fair to say that Egg didn't manage the politics well and perhaps fell into the temptation of thinking that more power was the answer. I don't really agree with your last sentence though. What Egg wanted was for his people, not himself. It was the noble lords who wanted to retain what they had and were only willing to give their support if they were sufficiently bribed with royal marriages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Wall Flower said: I think it points to the difficulty of bringing in any reform that disturbs the status quo and/or comes up against entrenched vested interests that don't want to share or lose their power and privilege. That's good intentions coming up against reality. Doesn't mean Egg was wrong to want to improve the lives of the smallfolk (that's his job as king) or that the so-called noble lords were right to oppose reform. It's fair to say that Egg didn't manage the politics well and perhaps fell into the temptation of thinking that more power was the answer. I don't really agree with your last sentence though. What Egg wanted was for his people, not himself. It was the noble lords who wanted to retain what they had and were only willing to give their support if they were sufficiently bribed with royal marriages. No one denies that Egg's reforms weren't for the better, but if he was so desperate to carry them on and he knew where the nobility stood, then he should've chosen between his people or his kids. He couldn't have it all, he knew the world in where he lived and decided that only nukes were the answer. One should also blame the assholes kids the man had, but seeing that Jaeharys had zero problems with forcing his own kids to marry ignoring even Egg's wishes one should wonder where was his mind at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wall Flower Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 1 minute ago, frenin said: No one denies that Egg's reforms weren't for the better, but if he was so desperate to carry them on and he knew where the nobility stood, then he should've chosen between his people or his kids. He couldn't have it all, he knew the world in where he lived and decided that only nukes were the answer. One should also blame the assholes kids the man had, but seeing that Jaeharys had zero problems with forcing his own kids to marry ignoring even Egg's wishes one should wonder where was his mind at. He didn't have Tywin Lannister's parenting skills, I guess, and it's probably harder to force your kids into arranged marriages when you married for love yourself. I think that Jaehaerys was a conservative who wanted to return to traditional Targaryen ways and was happy to wind back Egg's reforms when he became king. Why is Egg the only one to blame here and not the nobility for opposing all reform? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, Wall Flower said: He didn't have Tywin Lannister's parenting skills, I guess, and it's probably harder to force your kids into arranged marriages when you married for love yourself. I think that Jaehaerys was a conservative who wanted to return to traditional Targaryen ways and was happy to wind back Egg's reforms when he became king. Why is Egg the only one to blame here and not the nobility for opposing all reform? Is necessary having Tywin parenting skills?? Bethrothals are the norm i'm the nobility as shown that his son had no problem in ignoring both his father and children, that doesn't mean he was Tywin. Because we know the nobility are a bunch of assholes, the nobility opposing all reform was something expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wall Flower Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 6 minutes ago, frenin said: Is necessary having Tywin parenting skills?? Bethrothals are the norm i'm the nobility as shown that his son had no problem in ignoring both his father and children, that doesn't mean he was Tywin. Because we know the nobility are a bunch of assholes, the nobility opposing all reform was something expected. I was thinking of the way that Tywin dealt with one of his kids making an inappropriate marriage (or the way Hoster Tully dealt with Lysa's inconvenient pregnancy). Egg obviously struggled with the right level of feudally patriarchal sternness when it came to his children. Perhaps this is what the author means when he said that a good man doesn't always make a 'good' (effective, successful) king. I know who I would rather have as a parent, though. Of course, the Tywin and Hoster style of parenting had its own kinds of negative consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 41 minutes ago, Wall Flower said: I was thinking of the way that Tywin dealt with one of his kids making an inappropriate marriage (or the way Hoster Tully dealt with Lysa's inconvenient pregnancy). Egg obviously struggled with the right level of feudally patriarchal sternness when it came to his children. Perhaps this is what the author means when he said that a good man doesn't always make a 'good' (effective, successful) king. I know who I would rather have as a parent, though. Of course, the Tywin and Hoster style of parenting had its own kinds of negative consequences. But forcing marriages is still the norm in Westeros, you don't have to be a soulless father to do that. Doran and Ned aren't monsters and both of them took their decissions regardless of their kids opinions, Jaime loved dearly his bastard cousin and he bethrothed her to a Westerling, Mace loved and is fiercely proud of his kids and he used them as he wants, Alysanne or Daeron 2, etc. That's just how it is. Even a weak and gentle man like Tytos or a pious man like Baelor forced their kin to do it. I don't really see it that bad, imo unless your deal is Gregor, you don't get to complain, nobility comes with ludicrous perks so if you don't marrying your brother helps millions, you shouldn't even get a say on the matter. But if Egg's own kids didn't care enough why should the nobility?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wall Flower Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 19 minutes ago, frenin said: But forcing marriages is still the norm in Westeros, you don't have to be a soulless father to do that. Doran and Ned aren't monsters and both of them took their decissions regardless of their kids opinions, Jaime loved dearly his bastard cousin and he bethrothed her to a Westerling, Mace loved and is fiercely proud of his kids and he used them as he wants, etc. That's just how it is. Even a weak and gentle man like Tytos or a pious man like Baelor forced their kin to do it. I don't really see it that bad, imo unless your deal is Gregor, you don't get to complain, nobility comes with ludicrous perks so if you don't marrying your brother helps millions, you shouldn't even get a say on the matter. Well Ned and Mace betrothed their daughters to Joffrey and Doran betrothed his to Viserys, so I'm not sure that represents quality parenting! Poor Margaery might still be married to Joff if Grandma hadn't intervened. Egg did betroth his kids without their agreement, he just couldn't get them to go through with the deal or take sufficiently ruthless action to end their unapproved marriages/relationships. There were Targaryen kings who forced their children into arranged marriages but that wasn't always for the best either -eg, Aegon IV/Naerys, Rhaenyra/Laenor, Aerys/Rhaella. Back on topic, I definitely want to read more about Egg's reforms and what really happened at Summerhall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, Wall Flower said: Well Ned and Mace betrothed their daughters to Joffrey and Doran betrothed his to Viserys, so I'm not sure that represents quality parenting! Poor Margaery might still be married to Joff if Grandma hadn't intervened. Egg did betroth his kids without their agreement, he just couldn't get them to go through with the deal or take sufficiently ruthless action to end their unapproved marriages/relationships. There were Targaryen kings who forced their children into arranged marriages but that wasn't always for the best either -eg, Aegon IV/Naerys, Rhaenyra/Laenor, Aerys/Rhaella. Back on topic, I definitely want to read more about Egg's reforms and what really happened at Summerhall. Why not?? Neither of them knew what kind of psychos hid behind their pretty faces, no one can say with a straign face that Ned is not a good father. It wasn't for the best for the children but honestly, they did get the job done and there are love matches like Doran's that are shitty too, i can care either for the kids or for the smallfolk but someone has to pay the price, it turned out that no one wanted to and that's why they got the Summerhall debacle. And yes, Egg's reign sounds truly fascinating, tbh all the Kings after the Dance are fascinating to read, the first ones are pretty meh if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wall Flower Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 11 minutes ago, frenin said: Why not?? Neither of them knew what kind of psychos hid behind their pretty faces, no one can say with a straign face that Ned is not a good father. It wasn't for the best for the children but honestly, they did get the job done and there are love matches like Doran's that are shitty too, i can care either for the kids or for the smallfolk but someone has to pay the price, it turned out that no one wanted to and that's why they got the Summerhall debacle. And yes, Egg's reign sounds truly fascinating, tbh all the Kings after the Dance are fascinating to read, the first ones are pretty meh if you ask me. Well, I think due diligence is probably the least you owe your daughter before agreeing to a betrothal but I've long accepted that I would make a very poor faux-medieval patriarch (or matriarch in my case). I agree that Ned is one of the few decent Westerosi parents but he is still a member of the nobility who doesn't question the system. Not so sure about Mace 'I'll make my daughter a queen no matter how many kings she has to marry" Tyrell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#1dolFAN Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 1, Maegor the Cruel 2, The Young Dragon and 3, Egg (as a squire) are for me the most entertaining Targaryen kings to read about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Wall Flower said: Well, I think due diligence is probably the least you owe your daughter before agreeing to a betrothal but I've long accepted that I would make a very poor faux-medieval patriarch (or matriarch in my case). I agree that Ned is one of the few decent Westerosi parents but he is still a member of the nobility who doesn't question the system. Not so sure about Mace 'I'll make my daughter a queen no matter how many kings she has to marry" Tyrell. If she don't like it, she can always pull a Elissa Farman, the nobility comes with little dissadvantages and forced marriages are one of them it's still nothing to the insane advantages it comes with, at least Duncan abdicated but the man still got to live in a giant castle with servants all around doing his bid, the people who died because of him and the smallfolk whose lives he worsened wouldn't care about that diligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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