What if Sansa was killed by the wights in The Long Night?

[GoldenGail3]

19 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think that they won't have much of a choice. If it's a choice between choosing a half-wildling skinchanger former brother of the Night's Watch who happens to be the product of a Targaryen/Stark union and dying a gruesome death at the hands of zombies and then being resurrected and enslaved to do the bidding of the zombie puppetmaster...

...then it's pretty safe to say that people will accept the former over the latter. The fact that he is a "good" person and is both Targaryen and a Stark makes the decision that much more easier. Robb's will, the ages of Rickon, the as-yet-to-be-continued absence of Bran and Arya, Sansa's ineligibility, Tyrion's respect (however begrudging), Lannister tomfoolery, Stannis' unlikability and Daenerys' affections will certainly do him a few favors as well.

And how on Earth can you say that R+L=J is not going to be important? If everything that happened before, during and immediately after Robert's Rebellion has been CRUCIAL throughout this entire series, why would the biggest twist in the whole Robert's Rebellion story not be important.

Like what? Ned Stark, of all people, the man who refused to play the game, had actually played the game and fooled millions and millions of people into believing something that wasn't true. Jon Snow being the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark is just such a massive gut-punch to nearly every single character in the series...from Mance Rayder to Jalabhar Xho, from Euron Greyjoy to the Shavepate.

How do you think book Jon will respond when he hears about his lienage? Me thinks not well. They did a dishonorable thing which took away the lives of many - his uncle and grandfather for starters. 
 

Also Jon said NO to Stannis when offered to be the Lord of Winterfell, and he wanted it too. The arrogance of you JS fans makes me wish he didn’t get the IT in the books, and I like him too, I think Jon is a good character in the books. I think that if Jon was to be anything, it would be the the King of the North or be another Mance Raider (King-Beyond-The-Wall). Not be King of Westeros, and as a Stannis fan, I don’t believe that he’ll get it too and probably will die. At least I’m not to the point of imaging Stannis doing things that he will not do, like him going into exile or him also riding a dragon. 
 

We don’t even know that he’s legitmate (I hope not, it would fucking ruin Jon’s character arc) in the books, we don’t know if he’s R+L actually but i think so. I dunno what impact it shall have on the actual story. 

[BlackLightning]

6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So, banking off of that, let’s get back to the original question please.

If Sansa is killed by the wights in the crypts, that means one less person knows R+L=J. Since Sansa is not alive to learn Jon’s parentage, she doesn’t tell Tyrion who doesn’t tell Varys. How does the story progress from there?

Are we operating under the assumption that D&D are telling the story or are we assuming that it is being written by someone who is actually talented, responsible and intelligent?

[BlackLightning]

6 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

How do you think book Jon will respond when he hears about his lienage? Me thinks not well. They did a dishonorable thing which took away the lives of many - his uncle and grandfather for starters. 
 

Also Jon said NO to Stannis when offered to be the Lord of Winterfell, and he wanted it too. The arrogance of you JS fans makes me wish he didn’t get the IT in the books, and I like him too, I think Jon is a good character in the books. I think that if Jon was to be anything, it would be the the King of the North or be another Mance Raider (King-Beyond-The-Wall). Not be King of Westeros, and as a Stannis fan, I don’t believe that he’ll get it too and probably will die. At least I’m not to the point of imaging Stannis doing things that he will not do, like him going into exile or him also riding a dragon. 
 

We don’t even know that he’s legitmate (I hope not, it would fucking ruin Jon’s character arc) in the books, we don’t know if he’s R+L actually but i think so. I dunno what impact it shall have on the actual story. 

Well, Jon going into exile is something I am 98% sure won't happen. Jon riding a dragon? Meh, it's plausible but I'm wondering if GRRM would have the time or the pages for such a thing. Even if Jon claims a dragon and rides it, it won't be for long.

How will Book Jon respond? Well, it really depends on how Jon's betrayal, murder, second life as a direwolf and resurrection effects him. But I too think that Book Jon will take it poorly. How poorly he takes it depends on:

• if he learns that his parents were in love, married and had conceived him legitimately...immediately
• if he is told or led to believe that he is a Targaryen bastard and that his parents were selfish, underhanded adulterers who nearly destroyed an entire nation
• if he is told or led to believe that he is a Targaryen bastard and that his parents made a big -- maybe even honest -- mistake.
• if he is more simply led to believe that his mother was a prisoner, his father was vile and that he is a child of rape

It also depends on who tells Jon, how they tell Jon, when they tell Jon and their motives for telling Jon.

Honestly, this revelation should send a bunch of characters into a uncontrollable tailspin. Namely Cersei, Jon, Daenerys, Stannis, Davos, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Arianne, Aegon, UnCat, Doran, Melisandre, and Littlefinger. Whether or not the tailspin this causes the downfall and death of said character or said character manages to adapt depends.

 

Secondly, Jon being legitimized as a Stark and then becoming the new King of Winter is another thing. Ultimately though, we don't know how Jon will react when offered the Iron Throne. Maybe he will have realized his error in refusing lordship of Winterfell and will eagerly accept the opportunity to do so. Or maybe (again learning his lesson) he will accept the Iron Throne out of pure selfless duty or a dire need to assume control of or undo a deteriorating situation.

It's all a moot point anyways: because if he marries Daenerys, he will be King of Westeros anyways. King Consort but still...a king is a king. It doesn't even matter if Daenerys claims the IT independently or she and Jon claim the IT and rule jointly.

I'm not that big of a Jon Snow fan either but I can see the writing on the wall. And it's always worth pointing out that just because someone takes or sits the IT doesn't mean that they can or will keep it.

[Angel Eyes]

28 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Are we operating under the assumption that D&D are telling the story or are we assuming that it is being written by someone who is actually talented, responsible and intelligent?

I'm game for both options.

[BlackLightning]

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

Let's see both options, shall we?

If D&D are telling the story, then there's a good chance that knowledge of Jon's parentage will just magically occur to Tyrion because Tyrion is a saint who knows stuff, drinks a lot of wine and has the miraculous ability to fail and fall upwards. I'm not kidding.

Either Tyrion just guesses or Sam -- having become a bitter Betty ever since Dany told him that she executed his father and brother -- tells Tyrion himself to spite Dany. Nothing else changes. No one outside of that circle of Bran-Sam-Jon-Arya-Tyrion-Varys-Dany ever finds out. It doesn't make any difference to the story outside of trying and failing to paint Dany as a jealous psycho.

-XXX-

If it's someone talented, well...then the circumstances will all be different. There's so many different ways to go about it and so many different places to take it. What MY head-canon is and what I think will happen in the books is that Bran won't be the only one to find out the truth and the truth of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship has a lot more moving parts to it. For one, I think House Dayne is involved:

• Ashara and Arthur are both sensitive subjects for Ned Stark...why?
• the Tower of Joy is not far from Starfall; if it is far, why go to Starfall?
• Ned Dayne definitely knows more than someone his age should know...how? Or rather, why?
• Gerold Dayne is not an cruel idiot. He did what he did to Myrcella for a reason...what is the reason? Nor do I think he is acting completely alone.

In any case, I believe that Areo Hotah will find out R+L=J during his hunt for Darkstar. It's not unfathomable: correct me if I'm wrong but more than a few of the Dornish characters either believe that Lyanna was Rhaegar's lover or that Rhaegar had one-sided feelings for Lyanna. Not that big of a jump to be honest. Especially since there is this Wylla woman running around somewhere. I also believe that Samwell Tarly or Sarella Sand will be another to find out R+L=J completely independent of Bran hundreds of miles away in Oldtown.

There's also a good chance that Dany will start having dreams suggesting that Jon is Prince Rhaegar's legitimate son by Lyanna Stark either before she meets Jon or immediately upon making his acquaintance. If she talks to Marwyn or Barristan (or even Tyrion) about it and they -- knowing more than Dany does about Ned Stark, Jon Snow, Lyanna Stark, Rhaegar Targaryen and the entire rebellion -- really take time to think about what she tells them, they can start getting suspicious or intrigued. As all three are inquisitive minded, cardinal individuals, they can do digging on their own.

I also found it interesting that Davos was told a tale by a fisherman about meeting Ned Stark and how the mother of Ned's bastard is a Sisterwoman/Valewoman. Even though that tale is likely not true, what's stopping Davos or Brienne or anyone from hearing another tale that alarmingly pokes several holes in Ned Stark's story.'

And you can't forget about Melisandre, Moqorro or Benerro. Not only can they see the future in flames but R'hllor also reveals and unveils truths in the flames. Melisandre can literally get up one day and glance at the fire and literally see who Jon Snow's real parents are. After all, R'hllor is already trying to tell her that Jon Snow is the king.

The point is that there is a good chance that the truth of Jon's parentage spreads like wildfire all across the continent. Little fires everywhere become an uncontrollable, massive inferno. Or that the entire continent is drenched in gasoline and the tiniest spark causes the whole thing to explode. A lot of people will know a little bit about it and then they will share what they know with other people who will share it with other people. Before you know it, the pieces to the puzzle have all been found and put together...right under their noses.

Even if Sansa was killed before she could run her mouth and tell Jon's truth to the wrong person, it doesn't mean that the truth will never get out.

What I think will happen is that Sansa will accidentally or intentionally tell and that she will blame and punish herself for the domino effect that is bound to ensue. Although the reader will know that it's not Sansa's fault and that someone else told (remember Areo's words: "someone always tells"), Sansa and maybe other characters will wrongfully think it is Sansa's fault.

You can play it for a bit of dark comedy by making it so that everyone in Westeros knows that R+L=J except for Jon who is still being kept in the dark. Or you can do it so where that Jon -- and maybe the rest of the Starks -- doesn't know that everyone in Westeros already knows his deep dark R+L=J secret and so he ends up wasting time and looking silly trying to hide information that is already common knowledge.

You can even do it so that Jon or Dany take it upon themselves or come to agreement to reveal the truth...for several reasons different. For them to go public with the information at their own convenience puts them in a position of power.

I'm 99% sure that Dany won't become an genocidal mustache-twirler at the end of the series so I am 99% sure that R+L=J is NOT going to push Dany off the ledge and into the abyss of murderous insanity.

[Orm]

On 9/3/2020 at 6:16 AM, BlackLightning said:

If D&D are telling the story, then there's a good chance that knowledge of Jon's parentage will just magically occur to Tyrion because Tyrion is a saint who knows stuff, drinks a lot of wine and has the miraculous ability to fail and fall upwards. I'm not kidding.

Either Tyrion just guesses or Sam -- having become a bitter Betty ever since Dany told him that she executed his father and brother -- tells Tyrion himself to spite Dany. Nothing else changes. No one outside of that circle of Bran-Sam-Jon-Arya-Tyrion-Varys-Dany ever finds out. It doesn't make any difference to the story outside of trying and failing to paint Dany as a jealous psycho.

-XXX-

If it's someone talented, well...then the circumstances will all be different. There's so many different ways to go about it and so many different places to take it. What MY head-canon is and what I think will happen in the books is that Bran won't be the only one to find out the truth and the truth of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship has a lot more moving parts to it. For one, I think House Dayne is involved:

• Ashara and Arthur are both sensitive subjects for Ned Stark...why?
• the Tower of Joy is not far from Starfall; if it is far, why go to Starfall?
• Ned Dayne definitely knows more than someone his age should know...how? Or rather, why?
• Gerold Dayne is not an cruel idiot. He did what he did to Myrcella for a reason...what is the reason? Nor do I think he is acting completely alone.

In any case, I believe that Areo Hotah will find out R+L=J during his hunt for Darkstar. It's not unfathomable: correct me if I'm wrong but more than a few of the Dornish characters either believe that Lyanna was Rhaegar's lover or that Rhaegar had one-sided feelings for Lyanna. Not that big of a jump to be honest. Especially since there is this Wylla woman running around somewhere. I also believe that Samwell Tarly or Sarella Sand will be another to find out R+L=J completely independent of Bran hundreds of miles away in Oldtown.

There's also a good chance that Dany will start having dreams suggesting that Jon is Prince Rhaegar's legitimate son by Lyanna Stark either before she meets Jon or immediately upon making his acquaintance. If she talks to Marwyn or Barristan (or even Tyrion) about it and they -- knowing more than Dany does about Ned Stark, Jon Snow, Lyanna Stark, Rhaegar Targaryen and the entire rebellion -- really take time to think about what she tells them, they can start getting suspicious or intrigued. As all three are inquisitive minded, cardinal individuals, they can do digging on their own.

I also found it interesting that Davos was told a tale by a fisherman about meeting Ned Stark and how the mother of Ned's bastard is a Sisterwoman/Valewoman. Even though that tale is likely not true, what's stopping Davos or Brienne or anyone from hearing another tale that alarmingly pokes several holes in Ned Stark's story.'

And you can't forget about Melisandre, Moqorro or Benerro. Not only can they see the future in flames but R'hllor also reveals and unveils truths in the flames. Melisandre can literally get up one day and glance at the fire and literally see who Jon Snow's real parents are. After all, R'hllor is already trying to tell her that Jon Snow is the king.

The point is that there is a good chance that the truth of Jon's parentage spreads like wildfire all across the continent. Little fires everywhere become an uncontrollable, massive inferno. Or that the entire continent is drenched in gasoline and the tiniest spark causes the whole thing to explode. A lot of people will know a little bit about it and then they will share what they know with other people who will share it with other people. Before you know it, the pieces to the puzzle have all been found and put together...right under their noses.

Even if Sansa was killed before she could run her mouth and tell Jon's truth to the wrong person, it doesn't mean that the truth will never get out.

What I think will happen is that Sansa will accidentally or intentionally tell and that she will blame and punish herself for the domino effect that is bound to ensue. Although the reader will know that it's not Sansa's fault and that someone else told (remember Areo's words: "someone always tells"), Sansa and maybe other characters will wrongfully think it is Sansa's fault.

You can play it for a bit of dark comedy by making it so that everyone in Westeros knows that R+L=J except for Jon who is still being kept in the dark. Or you can do it so where that Jon -- and maybe the rest of the Starks -- doesn't know that everyone in Westeros already knows his deep dark R+L=J secret and so he ends up wasting time and looking silly trying to hide information that is already common knowledge.

You can even do it so that Jon or Dany take it upon themselves or come to agreement to reveal the truth...for several reasons different. For them to go public with the information at their own convenience puts them in a position of power.

I'm 99% sure that Dany won't become an genocidal mustache-twirler at the end of the series so I am 99% sure that R+L=J is NOT going to push Dany off the ledge and into the abyss of murderous insanity.

All this is making me anxious for the next Book......

Either your absolutely right Or your plain wrong...... And given its highly possible the shit-show was following outlines at the very least and Mr Martin isn't a writer who changes stuff "If I have left clues that the butler did it, then I won't change it so that the maid did it for the hell of it" then I am more inclined to think you might be Wrong....

But who knows.... What I am saying could turn out to be nonsense aswell.....

[BlackLightning]

19 hours ago, Orm said:

All this is making me anxious for the next Book......

Either your absolutely right Or your plain wrong...... And given its highly possible the shit-show was following outlines at the very least and Mr Martin isn't a writer who changes stuff "If I have left clues that the butler did it, then I won't change it so that the maid did it for the hell of it" then I am more inclined to think you might be Wrong....

But who knows.... What I am saying could turn out to be nonsense aswell.....

Don't be naive.

If the show was really following the outline, where was Lady Stoneheart? Where was Victarion Greyjoy? Where were the armies of Dorne? Why weren't the Starks all skinchangers? Where was the power of the Faith Militant?

Or are you trying to say that they weren't important to the story.

I think what you are saying is nonsense.

Anyone who reads A Dance with Dragons and then watches the catastrophe of a show knows that the stories are completely different.

[Orm]

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Don't be naive.

K....

 

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

If the show was really following the outline, where was Lady Stoneheart? Where was Victarion Greyjoy? Where were the armies of Dorne? Why weren't the Starks all skinchangers? Where was the power of the Faith Militant?

You left out Jeyne Poole, Edric Storm, Mya stone, Harry the Heir, zigzagging Rickon, Faegon, Jon Con and others which I care not to mention......

 

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Or are you trying to say that they weren't important to the story

Beats me.....

Could or couldn't have been important to the outline which I hope Mr Martin has.....

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think what you are saying is nonsense.

Maybe..... Let's see either it ages like milk or wine, shall we?

 

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Anyone who reads A Dance with Dragons and then watches the catastrophe of a show knows that the stories are completely different.

Would you Quit smelling your own farts, eh?....

None of us know what the story's direction is as none of us are Mr Martin. Your "narrative" and "character arcs" are just what you want/don't want to happen. They mean nothing as they are nothing.

And I say this to all who are absolutely sure about their "Theories" and "Predictions"... Unless said prediction came true in which case you can brag....

[GoldenGail3]

On 9/4/2020 at 9:37 PM, BlackLightning said:

Don't be naive.

If the show was really following the outline, where was Lady Stoneheart? Where was Victarion Greyjoy? Where were the armies of Dorne? Why weren't the Starks all skinchangers? Where was the power of the Faith Militant?

Or are you trying to say that they weren't important to the story.

I think what you are saying is nonsense.

Anyone who reads A Dance with Dragons and then watches the catastrophe of a show knows that the stories are completely different.

Yes and this is why Jon in the books most likely will not ride a dragon in the books. Or obtain the Iron Throne either. He has no inventive to be Lord of Winterfell when offered it, by choice, and his leadership skills in the books are questionable, seeing as though he broke his vows and doomed the NW's when he went to fight the Boltons. I don't think he will be. Even if he were legitimate (which I hope to jesus he isn't, being a bastard is as much a part of Jon's character as his warging is) I don't see a disgraced member of the Night's Watch, who abandoned them to ruin, being allowed to be near the throne.