BlackLightning

@Dofs @Lord Varys This discussion is weird Aegon II ambushed and killed Rhaenyra, yes, but she sat the Iron Throne, her armies won the war decisively and her son sat the Iron Throne after her. In fact, by the time Rhaenyra had been forced out of King's Landing, she had won the war...she just didn't know it yet. She was one raven message away from not only total victory but personal survival and restoration. And I don't even think Aegon ever even got the chance to sit on the Iron Throne again. If that's not a win, I'm not sure what is. I don't understand people's reluctance to just call it for what it is. The Blacks won the war (but it was a painfully bittersweet victory) and most Greens ended up becoming Blacks de facto by the time Aegon III's regency ended.

I rest my case. What I will say is this: as a black American man, I can really relate to Tyrion's struggle. His misdeeds and flaws are greatly exaggerated (sometimes, because Tyrion is borderline evil) while all of his achievements and talents and honor are greatly minimized...all because of his appearance. I know Tyrion's stature and DNA is not something within his control, but if you're going to be born into that kind of world with that kind of family with that kind of physique, then you better be either Santa Claus or Thomas Edison. Tyrion would still have issues with other people if he wasn't a dwarf (contrary to popular belief, it is not socially acceptable for men in Westeros to waste money or to be overindulgent whoremongers) but being a dwarf makes everyone that two or three times more likely to avoid him like the plague.

Doran? Try the whole damn Martell family. Every single member of House Martell is basically a treatise and commentary on the pros and cons of caution in war and politics and how important it is to immediately strike and maintain a balance. Literally everyone from Ellaria to Quentyn to even Areo

I don't think the ironmen like kinslayers or skinchangers or sorcerers so.... yeah, that's why I said what I said about the truth of the matter being worse than Euron's already grim reputation. If the ironmen found out what Euron was and exactly what he was trying to accomplish, Asha would've won the Kingsmoot As far as Tyrion's defense, you're missing the entire point. Tyrion has no allies, no friends and no power base - and that's anywhere on the continent. If Daemon Blackfyre were in the same position as Tyrion, the nature of the trial and its outcomes would have been very different.

No, it does not work both ways The King determines the laws of the Realm. Moreover, as the head of House Targaryen, he also determines the rules of his House. If he wants the only surviving child of his first marriage to follow him on the Iron Throne, then that's the end of the discussion. It's funny how it's okay for Jaehaerys to play whack-a-mole with Aerea, Daenerys and Rhaenys but it's wrong for Viserys to make a decision in favor of Rhaenyra and stand on it. The Greens were never in danger of being murdered or imprisoned by Rhaenyra...unless they rebelled and struck out against her. It's painfully obvious. No one ever accuses Rhaenyra of being a kinslayer or attempting to act as a kinslayer. Literally no one - not even in the most ridiculous salacious accounts.

I disagree No one speaks highly or positively about Tyrion...until that is, they take the chance (or are forced to take the chance) to really get to know him. And even then, it's a toss. This is a series in which reputation matters a lot - so much so that we often don't even meet a character face-to-face until a whole picture of their status and reputation is made clear. We spend Ned Stark's reputation isn't entirely accurate, but it is an outstanding reputation, nonetheless. In contrast, Stannis Baratheon has a bad reputation in some respects and a great one in other respects: he is a mixed bag and that makes him both reliable and scary to people. Euron Greyjoy's reputation is not only very accurate and very bad, but the truth of the matter is actually so much worse. Unlike the previous four men, Tyrion's reputation is, regrettably, pathetic. It took Jon Snow a while to warm up to Tyrion, Catelyn never warmed up to Tyrion and Maester Aemon, the great man that he is, is the exception. And it's funny how you bring up how Garlan Tyrell spoke highly of him...because where was Garlan during the trial lmao It's not just about friends and allies.... Tyrion could not get A SINGLE SOUL to come to his defense and testify. And even then, it's one thing to just sidestep and ignore all requests and inquests. It's another thing to lie on him in open court. And no Oberyn doesn't count because he had a completely different agenda; if Gregor Clegane wasn't on docket, Oberyn wouldn't give a fuck. The hill tribes? They were not his friends. When they were in KL with Tyrion, they were acting as sellswords not as allies. In other words, they were Tyrion's employees. They were (under)paid for their services and then they left.

It's not even about Tyrion's appearance; it's about his behavior. Tyrion doesn't inspire true feelings of love or loyalty in anyone outside of Podrick Payne at any point of the story. He doesn't even really inspire fear. If he practiced some discretion, then some of his lechery might've been tolerated. Or if he were of a full-grown man of the sword, then some of his lechery would've definitely been tolerated. But Tyrion is a crude smart-ass bookworm with a loose tongue and looser morals...who also overindulges in alcohol. Sure, the men of Westeros are allowed many indulgences that women are not, but Tyrion goes beyond what is considered tolerable for a nobleman...and he does so openly because he has money. I don't care how much money anyone has or what social class they are from: NO ONE likes seeing people be obnoxious with money. I knew Tywin DESPERATELY HATED Tyrion's guts the moment I read the passage where Tywin tells Tyrion that he plans to wed Tyrion to Sansa and give him control of the North. I was like "Dude, just send Tyrion to Stannis on Dragonstone and call it a day."

Because Ned is overprotective to a fault and didn't want Sansa to hear about all of the chaos and strife unfolding in the realm. As if she wouldn't have heard about it after court adjourned anyways lmaooo... A big part of the problems that the Stark kids face have a lot to do with how unprepared they were for the real world. Ned is a very good man, but he sheltered and--dare I say--spoiled those kids. All of them—from Jon the eldest among them all the way down to little Bran—are naive, even for noblemen. Rickon is the only one who hasn't been sheltered and spoiled because he was just too young. But now Rickon has been raised by figurative and literal wolves and so he has the exact opposite issue.... The fact that the Starks are all not trash is because of the prevailing goodness of Ned and Cat. But Cat seems to have been the disciplinarian parent. Ned was too easy on them. Because the fact that Ned had never even thought or tried to arrange a betrothal for Robb, his firstborn and heir, is absolutely absurd. Like I could maybe understand if Robb was eight years old, but Robb was pushing sixteen and slowly growing a full beard. Alys Karstark, Dacey Mormont, Wylla Manderly, Beth Cassel, Meera Reed and the women of the mountain clans are more than eligible, and that's just in the North. There are the Bracken and Tyrell girls, Desmera Redwyne, Allyria Dayne, Asha Greyjoy, Myranda Royce and a small army of Frey women. And then of course, royals like Princess Myrcella and Princess Arianne.

If we were talking about the show, then sure you could entertain the idea of Daenerys being in serious enough danger where her ability to make it out of the Dothraki Sea can be questioned However, we're talking about the books and in the books, Daenerys has Drogon with her when she is found by Khal Jhaqo. She's certainly not particularly safe but she is not defenseless or immobile.

Honestly, I feel like this was a mistake on Martin's part

There's no way Robert or Jon would allow Jaime to leave the Kingsguard to become Lord of Casterly Rock or to be both Lord of Casterly Rock and a Kingsguard. No way at all. There's also no way at all Tyrion would be allowed to assume the position. Not at the expense of the queen and her children. Besides, Tyrion strikes me as being unpopular in the West; they would oppose the decision as well. LOL I know she would. It's still very ridiculous to compare the Westerlands to Antarctica

I agree If this ends up going before the Iron Throne—and it will because Tyrion has no other recourse—then Tyrion is going to lose this case. Cersei will either win it for herself or she will win it for Tommen and rule as regent. Since we know the characters of Cersei, Robert and Jon Arryn, Cersei will successfully win it for herself with Tommen being her acknowledged heir....and then she will try to make "arrangements" for Tyrion.

Not Antarctica lol I think a better analogy is being offered to become the CEO of Meta when you are already in position to become the President of the United States

I don't know why so many people are so sore about the whole thing with Rhaenys. Sure, they took liberties, and it was a bit daft, but it was simply not that big of a deal. It has not made any lasting or material impact on the story.... Race swapping? Meh, I suppose. Way back in 2021 when the details about the cast was put forth, I was one of the many people on here who were not happy about it. In fact, I think @Lord Varys and I complained quite a bit about it. I think I remember saying that if they were going to make the Velaryons black that they needed to do to the same with the Strongs. I thought it would look unconscionably ridiculous, and it did. But whatever, I'm over it now. Laenor being alive? This does not rise to the level of a major/big change. Nothing—as of now—has been impacted by Laenor being alive. Changing Alicent's age was a BIG change. It was also unnecessary. Not denying that.

I think it's all about pride. If you sit back and really examine both real history and the text, you will see that the people of Westeros are much more nationalistic and tribalistic than the people of High Medieval Europe. For example, the sigils and the house words are much more important symbols in ASOIAF than they ever were in the real world. I believe GRRM uses the characters primarily based in Essos (yes, this also includes Daenerys) and sometimes Arya to stand in for the audience when examining the difference between the real-world European nobility and the nobility of the world of Westeros. Illyrio Mopatis even teases (or mocks, can't tell the difference yet) Tyrion about the Westerosi obsession with symbols and colors. Personally, I feel the level of filial and fraternal piety, style of warfare and sense of pride in one's lands and history present in the story is more reminiscent of medieval Asia (particularly feudal Japan) in nature. But yes, it's pride. As far as I can tell from history, this facet of ASOIAF is more Japanese feudalism than Western European feudalism.

While I don't disagree that Saera was bad news waiting to happen, I do think your read of Viserra and Daella are both tone-deaf and overly harsh. Viserra, like every other highborn teenager on the continent, is plucky, overeager and self-interested. It was very unfair and irrational for Alysanne to betroth Viserra to a very old man from a city far away whose grandchildren are her same age—just because Viserra wanted to marry a widowed man. And any children that Viserra would have by this man would never inherit anything of note. It's entirely inappropriate. Like why not betroth her to the heir of White Harbor? Or the firstborn son of the heir to White Harbor? And the main reason why Daella died in childbirth was because of her age. She was just way too young...and they just forced her into that!

True but that's because the first season of HOTD was faithful with the only big change being Alicent's age

Right so like their original plan was for Rhaenyra to take KL in episode 9 and then for Jace to die a valiant death in episode 10...like how was that going to work? Jace literally had no arc. There's no reason why they had to rush Jace's time. Like if they wanted him to sulk and brood and complain about the Dragonseeds, they could've just taken their time with Jace. If they wanted to expand on anything, expand on his time in the Eyrie, Winterfell, White Harbor, the Wall and the Twins. He could've been back on Dragonstone by the end of episode 4 to grieve, sulk and brood in episode 5, clash with his mother in episode 6 and spend all of episode 7 and 8 doing exactly what he does in episode 7 and 8. Plus, it gives Cregan, Sabitha and Jeyne more dimension and screentime—very important for the series endgame.

Wyman does say that. Three times. Once in A Game of Thrones to Catelyn when she was on her way to Moat Cailin, again in A Clash of Kings to Bran in Winterfell and the third time was to Davos in A Dance with Dragons. In the conversation with Davos, Wyman basically said that the fleet has been finished. Agreed...but not necessarily about the Weeping Town. Sunspear should be on par with King's Landing and Oldtown, in terms of population, culture and trade. Dorne had been an independent sovereign nation way too long for Sunspear to not be a major trading hub.

No That's why if Daenerys ends up burning the city, it'll likely be related to directly fighting the Others or minimizing the damage caused by the Others. Sure, it'll still be controversial, but it would have been the best course of action. Daenerys is maturing and changing, yes, but it's not at all within her character to indiscriminately slaughter over a million people and completely destroy both her own city and her own castle after fighting tooth and nail to get it back...in one piece. Like you really think Daenerys, of all people, who spent almost all of her childhood homeless, would not be thinking about "if I am to rule this city and country, where will I live?" Yeah, if Arya does it, it'll be an accident. Arya is obsessive and vindictive, but everything she does is very focused and very personal. What's likely to happen is Arya might go overboard in trying to kill one person and ends up making a mistake that sets off a chain reaction that ends up destroying the city. Like a twisted Rube Goldberg machine. If anyone is destroying the city, it'll either be Connington, Cersei or Euron.

This is exactly what happened with Meereen back in A Storm of Swords. And I believe this is what would've supposed to happen in the show until D&D decided to change the script at the last minute. And Daenerys ended up bringing swift justice to the murderers, rapers and thieves afterwards anyways. She gave a blanket pardon for everyone who committed any kind of crime during the actual sack. And then she administered both justice and a medieval form of social services to survivors, whether they were personally victimized or not. So, it's a bit of a nothing burger. And it's not even about a medieval moral perspective. Not only is there WW2 but there's the Vietnam War and hey...it was what it was. Our perspective on the ethics of warfare has changed VERY recently Honestly, with the threat of dragonfire, the fall and recovery of the city should be a lot quicker. It's hard to go out on a looting or killing spree when half of the city is on fire, Dothraki screamers are riding through the other half of the city and there's an 15ft tall fire-breathing dragon roaming about less than two miles away.

Both of your points are another reason why enmity between Team Daenerys, Littlefinger, Braavos and Team Aegon is not only inevitable but will likely inform a big part of the political plots in the last two books. And speaking of Dany, Tyrion—who is set to align with Dany, for whatever reason or another—also has history with Littlefinger, Illyrio and Aegon. Throw in Tyrion and Dany's issues with the Martells (or rather the issues that the Martells would have with Dany and Tyrion), and you have an all-out war that has almost nothing to do the Starks, the Lannisters or the Greyjoys. Oh and did I forget to mention that Tysha is likely somwhere in Braavos? Yikes. This means that this Second Dance will be unlike the First Dance and the Wot5K. The Second Dance will likely be more about religion and money and freedoms associated with those two things than it is going to be about sex or birthright or injustice. The debts the Iron Throne owed to the Seven have been cancelled. And yes, the Iron Throne owes House Tyrell. Apart from that, half of all of the Iron Throne's debts are to House Lannister....which is not only unconscionably ridiculous, but it tells you everything you need to know about almost everyone who was involved in the government before Ned became Hand. Jon Arryn has a pretty spotless reputation, but I am a bit flabbergasted as to how and why he would allow Robert to basically cripple the Iron Throne so that another Great House (of questionable repute) can effectively become the true rulers of the Seven Kingdoms. It's also ridiculous in that Cersei, for all of the financial problems she was facing during A Feast for Crows, would not pay for things herself. Or even chip away at the national debt by forgiving parts (or all) of the debts owed to House Lannister. She is literally head of House; she could do it in a heartbeat and it would take months for anyone else to realize. In fact, if the Second Dance ends up becoming what I think it will be, Cersei could wage a trade war against the Iron Throne, calling in its debts to House Lannister and making the lives of one third of Westeros much worse. But as far as I can remember, the Iron Throne is not indebted to the Arryns. The text doesn't say that they were. Jon Arryn looks negligent for not doing so, but ultimately it was both wise and noble to not lend money to the Crown of the Seven Kingdoms.

Wow I had heard that he was hard-nosed at best and a jerk at worst, but this was just classless.

How? You can make the case, but the likelihood of the matter is that the Tysha marriage has already been annulled. Unless the High Septon at the time of the Tyrion's marriage was a tough cookie, I can't imagine Tywin not being able to get that marriage annulled.

I'm personally floored that you all think that a wholesale indiscriminate massacre was a good idea If no one really liked the Freys before the RW, why would they like them after the RW? The better choice would've been to just to swear fealty to the Iron Throne and refuse to allow Robb Stark to pass