Mance is a hypocrite

[Julia H.]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This doesn't mean he was brought up as a prisoner.

You said it was baseless that Mance was the NW's prisoner. It is not baseless, it is based on Qhorin's words. Mance was captured. Qhorin makes it clear how it started. We don't know how exactly Mance was brought up. We know he arrived at the Wall as a prisoner and we know at some point ha became a sworn brother. When he was a sworn brother, he definitely wasn't a prisoner any longer, which is exactly one of my points. However, we don't know about any transitional state between Mance being a prisoner and Mance being a brother of the NW. He may have been regarded as a trainee brother for a time with the obvious expectation that he would take the vow soon. Assuming any other transitional state (where Mance is no longer a prisoner and not yet a - prospective or actual - brother of the NW) is baseless.   

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, do you think Osha is still a prisoner of the Starks? Should she cut off Rickon's head and bring it to Mance? You don't train a prisoner to become one of your own ... and if you do, he is per definition no longer a prisoner. 

Very good parallel. When Osha is no longer the Starks' prisoner, she is their servant. She is expected to serve them loyally, in exchange for not being killed or locked up. Actually, she starts serving in the kitchen still wearing irons, a clear indication of captive status. For the irons to be removed, she had to earn trust while serving. Yet, even when she wore the irons no more, I don't think it means she was free to go anywhere she wanted - she had to continue serving, and the irons could have easily been replaced again if she had just given a reason. 

Mance also started as a prisoner. The only reason why he was trained to be a warrior can be that he was expected to become a man of the NW. The NW wasn't going to train him as a warrior just to let him go back to his people beyond the Wall and use his skills and knowledge of the NW against the rangers. They trained him to become one of their own because they expected him to become one of their own. There were no career options to choose from. If you were brought up in a bakery, you became a baker. If you were brought up in a brothel... and so on. If you were brought up in the NW, you became a black brother. And if you had started out as a wildling prisoner with no connections or protectors whatsoever, then it was a good idea to be especially mindful of the expectations. 

On 5/23/2020 at 9:21 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Plus, what other prospects were available to him?

Spoiler

 

Ser Denys Mallister: "Mance, my boy, now that we have brought you up as one of our own, made you a powerful swordsman, and let you get acquainted with every piece of stone in the Shadow Tower as well as all our rules and regulations, strengths and weaknesses, it is time for you to decide what you want to do with your life."

Mance: "To be honest, I would like to go home, to my people beyond the Wall. I think I could use what I've learned from you very well up there. My dream job is to become King-Beyond-the-Wall."

Ser Denys Mallister: "Very nice plans. I have always thought you have the makings of a King-Beyond-the-Wall. I wish you good luck, and if you need a reference, don't hesitate to contact me."

 

 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

 

  Hide contents

 

Ser Denys Mallister: "Mance, my boy, now that we have brought you up as one of our own, made you a powerful swordsman, and let you get acquainted with every piece of stone in the Shadow Tower as well as all our rules and regulations, strengths and weaknesses, it is time for you to decide what you want to do with your life."

Mance: "To be honest, I would like to go home, to my people beyond the Wall. I think I could use what I've learned from you very well up there. My dream job is to become King-Beyond-the-Wall."

Ser Denys Mallister: "Very nice plans. I have always thought you have the makings of a King-Beyond-the-Wall. I wish you good luck, and if you need a reference, don't hesitate to contact me."

 

 

P.S

Nice cloak

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 5/22/2020 at 10:14 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- No attempts at diplomacy. So he keeps claiming that he only wants safe passage south, but only comes to the negotiating table after he has been severely bled. If he really wanted safe passage he would have attempted negotiating no matter how unlikely it would have been to succeed.

He did risk at ton of free folk lives for this when he could have negotiated earlier. But, I do wonder if there is a comparison here between Mance and Nymeria. On the other hand, Jon says he loves to hear the sound of himself talk - indicating arrogance.