Orion2 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 So when the Old Bear and the NW and Jon get to crasters on the way out to fight Mance, Jon talks with Gilly, and is offered an opportunity to help her, but cannot/its very difficult. Jon helps Sam bc he can, he spares Ygritte bc he can, he helps Alys Karstark bc he can. He's called to help people a lot, and there is a conflict between duty/pragmatism and helping others. I am certain this has significant to complete overlap w other threads..so, but maybe this can be good. so how does Jons calls to kingship interact with the restrictions of duty and pragmatism, and why does going south to winterfell to help trigger such an extreme response within this framework I've made of conflict between duty/pragmatism and helping others? also how can this be connected to the northern plot to place Jon on the northern throne thats in this thread: thanks for reading:) pls discuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion2 Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 ill do some more work on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Maybe it’s really late at night or very early in the morning but I cannot understand what the question is. Is it how Jon could take the Throne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion2 Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 sorry the thread I linked talked abt how Manderly and others may be plotting to crown Jon as king of the north bc they have seen Robbs will. ill write this more coherently when I have more evidence and I've put it together more:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion2 Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 king in the north* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay21 Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 On 2/17/2021 at 10:04 PM, Orion2 said: sorry the thread I linked talked abt how Manderly and others may be plotting to crown Jon as king of the north bc they have seen Robbs will. ill write this more coherently when I have more evidence and I've put it together more:) Have you checked out Cantuse's essay on Robb's will? I think it could have gotten to Manderly as well and Cantuse highlights the path it may have taken, though if I recall his version doesn't have it ending there. worth a read anyway. There's a small point about Robb's will that always catches me. In Cat's chapter about it we see Robb's plan and we hear Cat's objections and finally Robb's rebuttal. We don't actually see what Robb's lords sign. We are left to believe that it is his original plan to sort out Jon and make him king but we don't see it ever confirmed. Cat drops it too, she doesn't dwell or come back to it, the matter is closed. I wonder if Manderly's whole plan for Davos' mission to Skaggos isn't actually in line with Robb's will. Ned was not a secessionist. Ned's plan was that Stannis, Robert's rightful heir would take the iron throne and he would support him in that. Maybe instead of willing his heirs to perpetual rebellion (he was undeniably losing by the return to the Twins - Roose wasn't the only one who saw it) Robb wanted to secure the Stark's home and seat and willed Winterfell to his heirs but back under the rule of Stannis' Iron Throne. If the plan is to crown Jon, then what's Rickon for? If Manderly is just feeding Davos a line how long does he expect his house to escape Baratheon retribution? Is he betting everything on the idea that Stannis will be defeated? Maybe it's because in my twisted view of the series I see Manderly as one of the 'good guys' and I like to think that the 'good guys' are basically honorably people, but I get uncomfortable with the idea that Manderly was coldly lying to and manipulating Davos (another 'good guy'? can't the good guys be good to one another?). I'm as curious about Manderly's fate in TWOW as I am about anything or anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, Jay21 said: There's a small point about Robb's will that always catches me. In Cat's chapter about it we see Robb's plan and we hear Cat's objections and finally Robb's rebuttal. We don't actually see what Robb's lords sign. We are left to believe that it is his original plan to sort out Jon and make him king but we don't see it ever confirmed. Cat drops it too, she doesn't dwell or come back to it, the matter is closed. I wonder if Manderly's whole plan for Davos' mission to Skaggos isn't actually in line with Robb's will. There was also a Comicon panel (I think) in which a fan asked George if Jon would be aware that Robb left him as his heir, and George replied somthing like 'Did he tho?' I've never been able to find it after, but I did saw it once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay21 Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 1 hour ago, CamiloRP said: There was also a Comicon panel (I think) in which a fan asked George if Jon would be aware that Robb left him as his heir, and George replied somthing like 'Did he tho?' I've never been able to find it after, but I did saw it once. Thanks man. You made my day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion2 Posted February 19, 2021 Author Share Posted February 19, 2021 thank you boys, those where some sick replies:) especially @jay21, ill read that essay too. manderly feels..dangerous to me. on another thread @CamiloRP said that manderly reminds him of doran, and he does to me too. I think they're kinda martins idea of the ideal leader. Martin is always setting up this tension between pragmatism/realpolitik and honor/morality, and then there is another tension between morality and honor/duty, and manderly and doran balance those pulls exceptionally well compared to other characters in the series. so im not sure how that dynamic is best served when it comes to Davos being lied too, if I had to bet tho id say that manderly told Davos half the truth, that he would like Rickon as a backup, but Jon is older and has proven himself to be an exceptional leader when it comes to morality, maybe not realpolitik tho, and manderly would like him better as a leige lord than he would Rickon. there's the problem of the nights watch situation to. this theory is rly complicated but it feels right to me so im gonna start looking for more evidence. I think its also possible that manderly and his coconspirators would be content with revenge on the boltons and Freys and to have a Stark in Winterfell, tho he be not the king in the north. I think its possible? that many of the northern lords would accept stannis as king, bc they hate cersi and tommen and the lannisters, and stannis is an option for king that follows the line of succession while also getting rid of the Lannister influence over the realm. but thats gonna be complicated by stannis's insistence on his subjects following the lord of light. I think there could definitely be a sorta tragedy/reconning with stannis and Melisandre and the queens men. like this whole make stannis king and have a stark in winter fell thing would work rly great, BUT...Melisandre and her followers can't/won't be excised and that leads to further conflict and tragedy. like the northern lords abandon stannis for doing something bad to a heart tree and then stannis gets slaughtered by Roose and his bois. and then the northern lords return to the boltons? that would be terrible. my heads full. ill leave this for the moment. and thanks for reading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion2 Posted February 19, 2021 Author Share Posted February 19, 2021 and thats...interesting @CamiloRP. that could throw things in a totally different direction, and totally change my interpretation of Jons situation at the wall. thanks dawg Martin could just be obfiscating tho cause he doesn't want us to guess right which reminds me of his "is he" comment about Jon being dead, which according to this logic means Jon is dead. in which case im finna throw hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 29 minutes ago, Orion2 said: and thats...interesting @CamiloRP. that could throw things in a totally different direction, and totally change my interpretation of Jons situation at the wall. thanks dawg Martin could just be obfiscating tho cause he doesn't want us to guess right which reminds me of his "is he" comment about Jon being dead, which according to this logic means Jon is dead. in which case im finna throw hands What I find most interesting about that quote is that everyone (me included) assumes Robb's will names Jon as his heir, like, we assume the text states it, yet George wants us to second guess anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion2 Posted February 20, 2021 Author Share Posted February 20, 2021 yeah, and it feels like the story is going that direction, but if Martin choses for Jon not to be named, it means the whole structure of the story has to shift in the north, what with Jon going in a different direction. right...it makes things a lot more fun to second guess, and good on him for doing that. he's a genius man idk what to say. I saw this meme yesterday https://i.pinimg.com/originals/57/b4/ac/57b4ac2608a83dc9b0d050c1a79561c0.jpg ..which is funny as fuck, but after I thought of this thread I just made, which is just like a piece of the seed of the story he's growing, I would say that he's atleast comparable to Tolkien. they're different, but this shit is fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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