The Three Swords of Joffrey Ahai

[Seams]

Lion's Tooth, Hearteater and Widow's Wail.

What do they mean?

None is used in combat as a sword. 

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Lion's Tooth is a longsword proportioned to fit a twelve-year-old boy, made of gleaming blue steel, castle-forged and double-edged, with a leather grip and a gold lion's-head pommel.

The pommel of Hearteater is a ruby cut in the shape of a heart between a lion's jaws. Three fullers are incised deeply in the blade.

Widow's Wail is a Valyrian steel longsword. The blade has red and black ripples through the steel and its scabbard is garishly decorated with gold, cherrywood and red leather with golden lions' heads. The eyes of the lions are rubies.

Arya throws Lion's Tooth into the Red Fork, near where Robert defeated Rhaegar in single combat. (Arya deliberately avoids throwing the sword Needle in the canal in Braavos.) 

I believe our only glimpse of Hearteater is when Joffrey has Sansa give it a kiss for luck before the Battle of the Blackwater. (Joffrey uses the trebuchets but does not engage in combat.) I've seen numerous comments speculating about the current whereabouts of Widow's Wail, but few thoughts about Hearteater. (Although maybe some people have theorized that Tommen gave it to Ser Loras.) 

The name "Widow's Wail" is suggested by an anonymous voice in the crowd at Joffrey's wedding feast. Margaery says that Widow's Wail was not made for slicing pies so Joffrey sets it aside and borrows the silver sword of Ser Ilyn Payne. 

What does it mean that Joffrey has three swords - and that he dies almost immediately after receiving the third sword?

I think Brienne also has three swords that are mentioned: one from Renly that she loses or gives up at some point; one she uses in service to Catelyn (later loaned to Nimble Dick who immediately loses it in the tall grass at Crackclaw Point when the morningstar shatters his knee); and Oathkeeper, passed along by Jaime. 

The three swords of Azor Ahai are tempered in water, a lion and his wife, Nissa Nissa. Is there a lion connection to House Lannister?

Are rubies important in association with Joffrey? They are also associated with Rhaegar. 

The Lion's Tooth name could allude to the biting symbolism throughout the books: the repulsive character named Biter, the biting of Brienne's cheek and wordplay on bitter / biter (which might bring us to Bittersteel). 

This is all on my mind again because I've been thinking about the wighted Othor trying to reach down Jon Snow's throat, as if he wanted to pull his heart out through his mouth. This seems similar to the Last Kiss of Thoros of Myr, when he breathes fire down the throat of a R'hllor follower - he does this for Ser Beric who then passes along the fire to Lady Stoneheart. Are these two types of "Hearteater" situations we should be comparing to Joffrey's sword? What about Dany eating the heart of a stallion?

Joffrey liked the name "Widow's Wail" because he like to imagine that he would be killing foes with it, causing their widows to grieve. But Widow's Wail is also the name of a flower. 

[Springwatch]

Nice work, @Seams !  Joff Ahai, that's very good.

Brienne's swords are emblems of her service, what drives her. Joff is maybe a bit more complicated, because he is The King as well as himself. Anyway, Stannis' banner at the Blackwater was the flaming heart of R'hllor.

Any thoughts on the Lion's Paw/Tooth controversy? Meaningful or accidental?

[LynnS]

I've been thinking along similar lines where Donal Noye describes Stannis, Renly and Robert by the quality of their metal:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"And his brothers?" Jon asked.

The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."

This puts me in mind of Azor Ahai in his aspect of the smith tempering the forged sword.

First in water where it is too brittle and shatters into a thousand pieces.  This reminds me of Euron who is attempting to forge himself into a god (on the water) and the Ironborn's thousand longships.

Second in the heart of a lion.  It too shatters and breaks in two.  Which puts me in mind of Jaime who is pretty to look at but not much use as a swordsman now that he has lost his swordhand or been broken in two..  

Third, forged in the heart bathed in holy (dragon) fire.  Something very specific to the followers of Red Rahloo since both AA and Nissa Nissa seem to be priest and priestess of the fiery temple.  Not sure who this will turn out to be but all that's required is a valyrian steel blade and a Nissa Nissa substitute.  Who is the true steel?

[Springwatch]

20 hours ago, Seams said:

The three swords of Azor Ahai are tempered in water, a lion and his wife, Nissa Nissa.

Feels a bit mixed up - the first sword was consigned to the river by Arya. The second sword to me feels like the Nissa Nissa sword, because I read Bernard Cornwell's 'Winter King' before asoiaf, so I'd already seen a very different outcome to the princess blade kissing blessing thing. It genuinely, genuinely made me jump when Sansa did it. Anyway, that leaves Joff as the only dead lion in the picture. All a bit shadowy.

20 hours ago, Seams said:

This is all on my mind again because I've been thinking about the wighted Othor trying to reach down Jon Snow's throat, as if he wanted to pull his heart out through his mouth. This seems similar to the Last Kiss of Thoros of Myr, when he breathes fire down the throat of a R'hllor follower - he does this for Ser Beric who then passes along the fire to Lady Stoneheart. Are these two types of "Hearteater" situations we should be comparing to Joffrey's sword? What about Dany eating the heart of a stallion?

Feels vampire-like (apart from Thoros, who is giving, not taking). One of Dany's names was 'bright heart', and she thinks the Undying 'would have drained my life from me'.

Maybe this is connected: It looked as if the tree was trying to catch the moon and drag it down the well. The bright thing seems about to get eaten.

[Lord Lannister]

Gotta love a prophecy so abstractly worded you can make a case for almost anyone.

[nyser1]

The good King Joffrey, seven save him, is clearly a trueborn Baratheon and the prince that was promised. I have no doubt that Robert ate smoked ham at his birth.

[Seams]

On 8/12/2021 at 3:22 AM, Springwatch said:

Brienne's swords are emblems of her service, what drives her.

Her first two swords are unnamed. She obtains Oathkeeper about the same time she takes up the bat shield - sigil of House Lothston that was (supposedly) destroyed by an ancestor of Ser Illifer the Penniless. Of course, she is required to paint over that sigil because (as far as she knows) she has no connection to that extinguished noble house. I suspect that this sigil or the House it represents can provide clues to the deeper meaning of Brienne's role in the books, along with the hybrid Stark / Lannister sword she carries. 

On 8/12/2021 at 3:22 AM, Springwatch said:

Joff is maybe a bit more complicated, because he is The King as well as himself.

I think Joff is a mini-Jaime. As odious as Joff is, I think his every move is of symbolic importance. For instance, I suspect that the Butcher's Boy, Micah, may symbolize Westeros. As a result of Joff's incompetence and self-absorption, Mycah is cut into pieces by the Hound. 

I am curious why Joff seems drawn to the lion symbolism for his weapons. He does seem to think of Robert as his father, and he accuses Tywin of hiding under Casterly Rock while Robert was fighting in Robert's Rebellion. I suppose Cersei pushes the lion symbolism on Joff, but she is not mentioned as influencing his choice of weapons. (He does mention that she gave him permission to take charge of the trebuchets.) 

On 8/12/2021 at 3:22 AM, Springwatch said:

Anyway, Stannis' banner at the Blackwater was the flaming heart of R'hllor.

Yes! If Hearteater and the flaming heart are linked (or if they are presented as opposites) it appears that Hearteater may have been victorious when Stannis is defeated at The Blackwater. On the other hand, Melisandre was not present at the battle and she can continue to burn hearts and the people surrounding them. 

Was the kiss of Sansa decisive in bringing victory to the Lannister side? The attack by Renly's forces and the arrival of Tyrell and Tywin's armies are literally the forces that turned the battle but that does not preclude the symbolism of Sansa kissing Hearteater. Remember that the "unkiss" falsely remembered by Sansa takes place during the battle as well. 

On 8/12/2021 at 3:22 AM, Springwatch said:

Any thoughts on the Lion's Paw/Tooth controversy? Meaningful or accidental?

I guess I've missed this discussion. Do people think the Lion's Tooth name was a mistake?

On 8/12/2021 at 8:24 AM, LynnS said:

Donal Noye describes Stannis, Renly and Robert by the quality of their metal

Excellent point! As with many of GRRM's motifs, the three swords symbolism probably applies to more than one character. I wonder what shared truths we can discern from the parallels?

On 8/12/2021 at 8:24 AM, LynnS said:

Third, forged in the heart bathed in holy (dragon) fire. 

I think we need to keep an eye out for the sword Lamentation, lost in the Dragon Pit during the Dance of the Dragons. The dragon flame was certainly present at that location.

The Dragon Pit is located on the Hill of Rhaenys. It may be a stretch, but Rhaenys could be one of the lovely, somewhat elusive women associated with the delicious peach symbolism: I could make a case that Margaery, Lyanna and Brienne are all peach women. (I suppose Robert's natural daughter, Bella, might also fit the category because she lives and works at the inn/brothel called The Peach. Dany eats a small, sweet peach brought to her by Ser Jorah.) And Ser Loras may be part of the peach symbolism, to be fair. He was Renly's true lover, even though Margaery was his nominal wife. If Nissa Nissa and Rhaenys are also peach women, the location on the Hill of Rhaenys would be very significant in connecting Lamentation to the Azor Ahai legend. 

But the fact that the structure is called a "pit" may be the best hint we will get about the peach symbolism. The Hill of Rhaenys hosts only a pit, synonymous with the hard center that is left after the flesh of a peach has been stripped away.

The first sword in your triptych is the sword of Ser Waymar Royce, shattered by the icy blade of the White Walker who engages him in single combat. This could fit the water stage of the Azor Ahai legend. 

I hadn't thought of Jaime as the lion heart from the second stage of the legend. I kept trying to make Tywin's or Joff's deaths fit the story. The person and blade who sever Jaime's hand/arm are a Dothraki known as Zollo the Fat using a "huge, curved" arakh, "the wickedly sharp scythe-sword the horselords loved." Re-reading the passage just now, one intriguing detail is that "the fool," (Shagwell) jumps on Jaime's back to hold him down while Zollo does the chopping. This recalls the wedding of Tyrion and Sansa, where Tyrion has to stand on a fool's back (Ser Dontos) in order to put the cloak on Sansa's shoulders. 

I think I would want to see details comparing Jaime's hand to a heart to confirm the Azor Ahai connection, but this is really interesting. Or here's a thought: the arm that is severed is referred to as Jaime's "sword hand." What if the second sword, the one that matches Azor Ahai's lion-forged sword, is Jaime's hand? Before it is amputated, he kills a bear with it - close to a lion. I think the severed arm does become a symbolic weapon, as Roose Bolton says, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" when he kills Robb Stark. But is that all parallel to thrusting a sword into the heart of a lion? 

If Waymar's sword is sword #1 and Zollo's arakh is sword #2, my bet is on Lamentation as sword #3 for this set of three swords. (As I mentioned, I suspect there will be multiple sword trios to mimic the Azor Ahai allegory.) The "attain lemon" anagram of Lamentation is one of my dearly-held pieces of evidence that this particular sword will be important, in addition to closing the circle with Ser Waymar's shattered sword in the opening scene (both swords are House Royce swords). Peaches and lemons are important components of GRRM's "bitter-sweet" motif, which he has promised will be part of the series conclusion. 

20 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It looked as if the tree was trying to catch the moon and drag it down the well.

Very nice catch! I'm very interested in well symbolism. This could be really significant.

19 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Gotta love a prophecy so abstractly worded you can make a case for almost anyone.

It's all in the details. Following the little trail of clues. My idea of fun!

5 hours ago, nyser1 said:

The good King Joffrey, seven save him, is clearly a trueborn Baratheon and the prince that was promised.

GRRM loves irony. 

[Springwatch]

On 8/13/2021 at 6:00 PM, Seams said:

I guess I've missed this discussion. Do people think the Lion's Tooth name was a mistake?

Lucky you. It's usually wheeled out as evidence of Sansa's fast track to criminal insanity, but it's not really. The insanity is all for us.

So... I'm reading Harper Collins uk 2011 edition paperbacks, which have it like this:

1. In AGOT, Joff had a sword he named 'Lion's Tooth', which Arya threw in the river.
2. In Clash, on seeing Hearteater Sansa thinks of the first sword having the name 'Lion's Paw'.
3. In Swords, at the Hound's trial Arya says she threw Joff's sword in the river and it was named 'Lion's Paw'.
4. In Swords, on seeing Widow's Wail Sansa thinks of the first sword having the name 'Lion's Tooth'.

After that it gets complicated.  In an SSM, George backs up #2 with this statement:

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[GRRM is asked about Sansa misremembering the name of Joffrey's sword.]

The Lion's Paw / Lion's Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

But. At least in some later editions, #2 has the original 'true' name, 'Lion's Tooth'. I've been trying to verify this on the internet; it's not easy, but the graphic novel adaped by Landry Walker (2021) has 'Tooth', and so does asearchoficeandfire.com.

So it looks as if George has changed his mind. If you ask me, George's statements are all mischief and misdirection anyway, but there is another one that is completely to the point:

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There was a long discussion about mistakes and inconsistencies. He used the eyes changing color example, and also mentioned receiving an email about horses changing sex. George gets frustrated when there's mistakes in the books--not just because mistakes can be embarrassing, though. He said there are inconsistencies in the books that are NOT mistakes. He believes in the "unreliable narrator" -- you can't always trust what people say because they might be remembering it wrong, or you get two different stories depending on who's doing the telling. He feels that mistakes such as eye color changes can distract from the planned inconsistencies, making them less effective.

Which appears to fit this situation perfectly. He's made a big deal about the Joff's sword and it's name - it comes up about a dozen times.  And one instance has been corrected, because it made a planned inconsistency less effective. It's not obvious why.

[LynnS]

On 8/13/2021 at 1:00 PM, Seams said:

I think I would want to see details comparing Jaime's hand to a heart to confirm the Azor Ahai connection, but this is really interesting. Or here's a thought: the arm that is severed is referred to as Jaime's "sword hand." What if the second sword, the one that matches Azor Ahai's lion-forged sword, is Jaime's hand? Before it is amputated, he kills a bear with it - close to a lion. I think the severed arm does become a symbolic weapon, as Roose Bolton says, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" when he kills Robb Stark. But is that all parallel to thrusting a sword into the heart of a lion? 

I view it more in terms of tempering character to forge the metal.  Jaime is a broken sword after the loss of his sword hand both mentally and physically.  The sword forged in the heart of a lion could also represent Brienne with Jaime as the smith; as she becomes his sword arm and takes on the mantle of the white lion.  We have a progression of the sword forged in water (Ice) shattering and splitting in two.  So then does it follow that Oathkeeper will be tempered in holy blood/fire?  Brienne has sworn an oath to avenge Renly's death.  Woe to Melisandre.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory.

This is vey interesting.  I'm not sure how this applies to Sansa, but there are several character who have lapses in memory or supressed memories.  Bran is the most obvious.  What comes to mind for me with Sansa is that she experiences a 'time loss' while building her snow castle.  Ned experiences a loss of time/memory when Lyanna dies.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

Then there are the various versions of prophecies as told by different characters.  I'm not sure that Mel is a reliable narrator since her version(s) change over time and with a purpose.

Bran's memories of Jaimie are deliberately repressed;
 

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. "The things I do for love," it said.

Bran screamed.

The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran's shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone.

  

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

He's made a big deal about the Joff's sword and it's name - it comes up about a dozen times.  And one instance has been corrected, because it made a planned inconsistency less effective. It's not obvious why.

I'm so glad you brought this to my attention! 

If I'm right about Joffrey's purpose in ASOIAF being a mini-Jaime, the change of Lion's Tooth to Lion's Paw probably goes to the notion of Jaime's amputated limb being a "sword-hand." 

We know that things thrown or dropped or that fall into the Red Fork will eventually wash up on the Quiet Isle and be recycled or - more precisely - reborn. Arya throws Lion's Tooth into the Red Fork. But if that sword is ambiguously known as Lion's Paw, that may feed the notion of Jaime's hand as a weapon that will reappear in the story. In addition to Rhaegar's rubies, The Hound and Lady Stoneheart appear to have been reborn after being fished out of the river and/or taken to the Quiet Isle. Maybe Brienne and her traveling companions also count as reborn after their visit there. (A topic for another day: does it make a difference if the person is reborn from the Green Fork and the Red Fork? When will we see some Blue Fork rebirth?)

The "tooth" mentions that I recall in association with Lannisters are these: 

1) Joffrey and Cersei wear black diamonds at some point. I think all diamonds may be associated with dragon's teeth, but black diamonds in particular have that association. 

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He had expected to find them impressive, perhaps even frightening. He had not thought to find them beautiful. Yet they were. As black as onyx, polished smooth, so the bone seemed to shimmer in the light of his torch. They liked the fire, he sensed. He'd thrust the torch into the mouth of one of the larger skulls and made the shadows leap and dance on the wall behind him. The teeth were long, curving knives of black diamond. The flame of the torch was nothing to them; they had bathed in the heat of far greater fires. When he had moved away, Tyrion could have sworn that the beast's empty eye sockets had watched him go. (AGoT, Tyrion II)

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Joff wore plush black velvets slashed with crimson, a shimmering cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar, and on his head a golden crown crusted with rubies and black diamonds. (AGoT, Sansa V)

I think the "curving knives" of the dragon teeth tie into the amputation of Jaime's arm because an arakh - a curved sword - is used to sever the hand. 

Two of Joff's swords are known to feature rubies. Here his crown includes both rubies and black diamonds. The Elder Brother tells us that rubies have washed up on the Quiet Isle. We know that rubies from Rhaegar's armor fell in the Red Fork and assume those are the rubies found by the residents of the Quiet Isle. 

Just as Joffrey is not Robert's son and therefore not the rightful king, the use of black diamonds seems like a sham use of dragon's teeth by the pretender to the throne. Maybe his failure to use his "tooth sword" fairly and properly foreshadows his lack of skill and wisdom as a king. But the name change to Lion's Paw may reflect the oath-breaking and king-slaying associated with Jaime, eventually punished by amputation of the "paw" that committed the treason.

The lyrics of The Rains of Castamere song mention only the lion's claws but it is the Lord of Castamere who makes the point that the two lions have equally long and sharp claws. We know that Tywin's weapon in that conflict was the diverted water that drowned the trapped people of the Reyne and Tarbeck families and households. This seems relevant to the river and "Lion's Paw" symbolism. (Is it also an allusion to Cersei washing out her mouth with lemon water - see below.) 

(As the person who threw the sword in the river, this raises a fascinating comparison of Arya to the people who cut off Jaime's sword hand - the Bloody Mummers. This could foreshadow her situation in the Mercy chapter of TWoW.) 

2) When Cersei is informed of her father's death, her POV seems to digress into thoughts about washing her mouth with lemon water to clean her teeth, a task she undertakes for dental health in spite of disliking the taste of the lemon. Interesting that Cersei is about to ascend to the regency and that she is strengthening her teeth at that key moment. 

There are numerous other connections between lemons and teeth in the books. Lady Genna Lannister marrying Emmon Frey who chews sourleaf - which seems to be the opposite of lemon-fresh teeth - may have been a Lannister attempt to capture some lemon / tooth mojo. Since I'm stuck on that "attain lemon" anagram for the sword Lamentation, I have the feeling that GRRM's elaborate chain of symbols will bring us back to that sword as the tooth / paw ambiguity progresses. 

3) Tywin never smiles until his stinking corpse shows a frozen grimace while his body lies in state. Is this another piece of the Lannister / teeth symbolism puzzle? 

[My thoughts are a bit stream of consciousness here. Sorry if they are too jumbled to make sense. I may come back later and try to clarify any areas where the ideas are unclear.]