Daenerys and the Torture of the Wineseller's Daughters - Thoughts?

[Corvo the Crow]

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[Craving Peaches]

25 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This is generally taken to be Rhaego. 

Yes, but it's not as though Mirri had access to that vision. All she had to go on, that we know of, is what the Dosh Khaleen said. Given the unpredictable nature of prophecies that Mirri, having met Marwyn, would likely be aware of, I don't think it is enough of a justification to kill Rhaego.

[Corvo the Crow]

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[Craving Peaches]

58 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

She went preemptive. Dany is on a path of destruction and one of the things fueling that fire is that her son would inherit the iron chair. It is logical on Mirri's part even if she has no access to any prophecy. What's illogical is Mirri not trying to kill Dany but well, crop top Dothraki outfits apparently provide more plot armor than real armor do.

If Mirri wanted to stop whatever, she should have targeted Drogo (which she did) or at least Daenerys. The baby had no say at all in what was going on.

[SeanF]

32 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If Mirri wanted to stop whatever, she should have targeted Drogo (which she did) or at least Daenerys. The baby had no say at all in what was going on.

The baby would be dead without Daenerys in any case.  What Mirri wanted was for Dany to live, broken in spirit, after losing her husband and her son, and likely to be raped and enslaved.

The other kos had no interest in Dany, as it turned out.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Wasn't he?

This is generally taken to be Rhaego. 

What one is witnessing is one *potential* future.

The argument against killing Baby Hitler is that the future is not set in stone.

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The baby would be dead without Daenerys in any case.

Technically, could she not have delivered Daenerys' healthy baby, killed Daenerys and raised Rhaego herself? The people 'responsible' for what happened to her village were Drogo (and Daenerys to a lesser extent). Rhaego had no part in that.

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Technically, could she not have delivered Daenerys' healthy baby, killed Daenerys and raised Rhaego herself? The people 'responsible' for what happened to her village were Drogo (and Daenerys to a lesser extent). Rhaego had no part in that.

I doubt if she expected to survive anyway.  And, she probably took the view that the world would be a better place without Dothraki children.  Lots of people have no issue with murdering children, in this tale.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I doubt if she expected to survive anyway.  And, she probably took the view that the world would be a better place without Dothraki children.  Lots of people have no issue with murdering children, in this tale.

Probably. But I cannot stand the baby murderers. Big No-No for me. I don't think she had a valid excuse.

[Aldarion]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

What one is witnessing is one *potential* future.

The argument against killing Baby Hitler is that the future is not set in stone.

And even then, even if you kill Baby Hitler, somebody else might take over. Historical events and processes are a lot more complex than just a "madman took over and started slaughtering people". Which is one of reasons why I believe there is a very significant probability that Daenerys' anti-slavery crusade in the Slaver's Bay will ultimately be a failure. She understood that "slavery is bad"*, but never bothered to understand how and why slavery became so widespread in Essos, and thus is unlikely to dismantle the forces behind the slavery - meaning that slavery will return soon after she leaves Essos.

Basil II was a far smarter, more experienced, more emotionally stable and overall better ruler and leader than Daenerys, yet he still failed to prevent the decline of Byzantine's theme system and the Empire's eventual fall into feudalism. Matthias Corvinus' reforms of Hungary likewise did not survive his own death.

*And even that is kinda questionable - did she really understand that, or chose to "understand" it when she benefited from it?

[SeanF]

24 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

And even then, even if you kill Baby Hitler, somebody else might take over. Historical events and processes are a lot more complex than just a "madman took over and started slaughtering people". Which is one of reasons why I believe there is a very significant probability that Daenerys' anti-slavery crusade in the Slaver's Bay will ultimately be a failure. She understood that "slavery is bad"*, but never bothered to understand how and why slavery became so widespread in Essos, and thus is unlikely to dismantle the forces behind the slavery - meaning that slavery will return soon after she leaves Essos.

Basil II was a far smarter, more experienced, more emotionally stable and overall better ruler and leader than Daenerys, yet he still failed to prevent the decline of Byzantine's theme system and the Empire's eventual fall into feudalism. Matthias Corvinus' reforms of Hungary likewise did not survive his own death.

*And even that is kinda questionable - did she really understand that, or chose to "understand" it when she benefited from it?

That’s why one has to take the fight to Volantis.

As to benefits, she was given several opportunities to ditch the non-combatants and sail off with bribes and loot, but she forewent them.

[Aldarion]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That’s why one has to take the fight to Volantis.

As to benefits, she was given several opportunities to ditch the non-combatants and sail off with bribes and loot, but she forewent them.

Taking fight to Volantis is absolutely necessary, but not enough. She should try and introduce feudalism to Slaver's Bay, but that is a project that would take time.

[Springwatch]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, but it's not as though Mirri had access to that vision. All she had to go on, that we know of, is what the Dosh Khaleen said. Given the unpredictable nature of prophecies that Mirri, having met Marwyn, would likely be aware of, I don't think it is enough of a justification to kill Rhaego.

Mirri is a priestess, magic-user and maegi - she probably feels qualified to make her own opinion on that.

 

[Craving Peaches]

6 hours ago, Aldarion said:

And even then, even if you kill Baby Hitler, somebody else might take over.

If you consider the theory that Drogon (or even Daenerys herself) is the Stallion, then Mirri's very attempt to end the Prophecy is what has 'activated' it, so to speak.

[Aldarion]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

If you consider the theory that Drogon (or even Daenerys herself) is the Stallion, then Mirri's very attempt to end the Prophecy is what has 'activated' it, so to speak.

Agreed. That sort of irony seems to be rather common in ASoIaF.