Why the Fables of the Seven Don't Tell About Others?

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I'm a huge fan of the Brasserie Dupont from Belgium... 

Don't know that one myself.  We've got some good beer, but last 4-5 years Netherlands have started to have good beers too, while our country starts to go in wine more: climate change .

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

We've got some good beer, but last 4-5 years Netherlands have started to have good beers too, while our country starts to go in wine more: climate change .

Oh, that's sad. Well, check out Dupont's Biere de Miel while it lasts! 

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

He was informed how he would die. But what he if knew that Bloodraven or someone else had put that vision into his head? And that visions don't always tell the truth? That's something that I would like to know before putting my life on the line. I would definitely ding Team Nature for ethics violations here.

So, are you saying that he shouldn't be warned how he would die, and just only the images about Winterfell being flooded, Bran and Rickon dead, etc? Which is the most manipulate - showing the truth or hiding it?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

So, are you saying that he shouldn't be warned how he would die, and just only the images about Winterfell being flooded, Bran and Rickon dead, etc? Which is the most manipulate - showing the truth or hiding it?

No, I am saying more information should have been given to him, not less. Ultimately he made his choice to act, but it was with limited information made to manipulate him. I imagine his parents played some role in persuading him as well, either directly or via their religious instruction, so they bear responsibility as well. He seems old and weary from the visions he receives, but Jojen is in fact a young boy.

[Gilbert Green]

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Tolly Mune who wakes up to the hypocrisy and lies of her fanatical society who refuse to use birth control to stave off assured famine, and finally betrays her people and helps Tuf to leave with his ship, once she discovers that despite Tuf's help to ward off the famine her people still plot to steal the ship for their own? That Tolly Mune?

I'm talking about the Tolly Mune who has a fierce argument with Tuf at the end of the third story.   Who accuses him of playing God, calls him a monster, and accuses him of genocide.  The one who objects when Tuf argues that humans are effectively no better than animals who can be sterilized without their consent.   The one who is left in tears at the end of the story because of the crime against her people; but who elects to keep silent, because he has left her with no better alternative.  The one who ends by saying that Tuf "might be a god", because she is trying to conceal her true opinion -- that he is a monster.

Tuf, to be sure, also has a few things to say for himself.  It is not as though GRRM does not present both sides of the argument.   But you are surely projecting if you assume that GRRM means us to think that Tuf is 100% right and Tolly Mune (except to the extent that she is forced to surrender) is 100% wrong

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

For anyone else recommended reading on George and his writing of christian like religions

• And Death his Legacy

There is no religion in this story.  The character who is called a "prophet"  is merely a secular demagogue operating within the polarized dualism of American politics.   Nothing he says in his speeches is religious.   The point of the story is that the (presumably left-wing) assassin who murders him promotes the horrors he seeks to prevent.  The demagogue is called a "prophet" mainly to foreshadows his becoming a "martyr" after the assassin kills him.  Which only perpetuates the cycle of death.  The assassin (the protagonist) is the true villain of the story.  And death his legacy.

This theme is revisited in THE ARMAGEDDON RAG, where, however, the protagonist ends up making the correct choice.  I expect it also to play out ASOIAF as well.  But it is an attack on dualism, which is most prominently represented in ASOIAF by the Faith of Rh'llor.

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

• A Song for Lya

Where is the "christian-like religion" in this story?   It is a horror story about an alien death cult in which inhuman monsters telepathically manipulate their victims into offering themselves as food.  The closest ASOIAF analogy might be another suicide cult like the House of Black and White.  Or maybe those creepy blood-hungry weirwoods. 

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

• And Seven Times Never Kill Man

The evil cult of Bakkalon is an anti-Christian sect.  We get quotes from its scriptures, in which Bakkalon insults "the god who is called a lamb" (a reference to Christ). 

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

• The Way of the Cross and Dragon

A conversation between a believer and a nihilist where even the nihilist admits that nihilism is a cold and empty doctrine, and hence that religion, even an invented one, is necessary for the health of the human spirit.  The story is consistent with atheism, but hardly a ringing endorsement of it.

An atheist or agnostic who could write such a story could hardly be averse to a work of fiction in which a fictional counterpart of Christianity received some level of favorable treatment.

[sweetsunray]

11 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I'm talking about the Tolly Mune who has a fierce argument with Tuf at the end of the third story.   Who accuses him of playing God, calls him a monster, and accuses him of genocide. 

She does no such thing. She explains she helps him flee, because "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" and she sees people she knows, she believes to be "good" people plot to murder and war in order to get his seedship, while they claim to be pro-life, and they would rather commit murder and war of others than solve the actual problem: unbridled procreation that does not even allow for contraceptives... just like the Catholic Church has preached throughout the 20th century.

There is a moment that she tries to convince him to sell the ship, which is closer to a theological debate on "why would one man deserve to own it, when we have more need of it, etc". Since she herself is actually a zero-birther, she does not actually believe those things. She's using smarmy intellectual arguments, but George makes clear they are a strategy, rather than something she believes. She cannot but admit that their society refuses to deal with its root issue - a stupid belief of the majority of their people that they should breed without any constraint, so that they must ration food for generations so much that people grow thinner and smaller, generation after generation. And that they tend to try and make this irrational behavior another one's problem - colonizing other planets until it came to war. She pretty much admits that because they cannot solve their root issue, the sole solution is to take from others who solved a similar issue succesfully ages ago.

And Tuf is nothing like what you describe at all. Seems Tuf's typical tactic went way over your head. He's a trader originally (he always reminds the reader of this). He uses the ship to make a trade, knowing that planet will end up needing something from him on an ecological way. He went there, asking for repairs and changes to the ship WITHOUT having the funds. He knows full well that the deal will be settled by engineering something ecologically that will help that planet's issues. He may not always know beforehand what that is, but that's how he operates each and every story, except for The Plague Star.

Oh an btw - Spiderweb and Ma Spider, in a theme of overpopulation because of some foolish religious idea?

11 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

The one who objects when Tuf argues that humans are effectively no better than animals who can be sterilized without their consent.   The one who is left in tears at the end of the story because of the crime against her people; but who elects to keep silent, because he has left her with no better alternative.  The one who ends by saying that Tuf "might be a god", because she is trying to conceal her true opinion -- that he is a monster.

Tuf argues nothing of the sort. Tolly is not in tears because of a crime against her people. She does not refer to Tuf as a god. Tuf commits no crime against her people whatsoever. He not only helped them setting up an ecology that will prevent a famine in 27 years, but will give improved nutrition value. What you write here above are outright lies! Nothing of what you write above happens in Loaves and Fishes.

11 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

There is no religion in this story.  The character who is called a "prophet"  is merely a secular demagogue operating within the polarized dualism of American politics.   Nothing he says in his speeches is religious.   The point of the story is that the (presumably left-wing) assassin who murders him promotes the horrors he seeks to prevent.  The demagogue is called a "prophet" mainly to foreshadows his becoming a "martyr" after the assassin kills him.  Which only perpetuates the cycle of death.  The assassin (the protagonist) is the true villain of the story.  And death his legacy.

The "prophet" is a strongman politician who is followed without question by people as if they were his "disciples". The relgious nutttery applied onto politics.

11 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

This theme is revisited in THE ARMAGEDDON RAG, where, however, the protagonist ends up making the correct choice.  I expect it also to play out ASOIAF as well.  But it is an attack on dualism, which is most prominently represented in ASOIAF by the Faith of Rh'llor.

The theme is indeed revisited, but not for a politician or a religion. It is about a rockstar who gains a frenzied following. The major difference is that the actual "cult" stuff is secluded to but a few of the most inner circle. The majority of the concert goers do not even know this is about anything other than rock. 

11 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Where is the "christian-like religion" in this story?   It is a horror story about an alien death cult in which inhuman monsters telepathically manipulate their victims into offering themselves as food.  The closest ASOIAF analogy might be another suicide cult like the House of Black and White.  Or maybe those creepy blood-hungry weirwoods. 

It presents itself as a religious cult of love, albeit more like Hare Krishna, where everyone will become one in love, except to become one a person commits suicide. 

11 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

The evil cult of Bakkalon is an anti-Christian sect.  We get quotes from its scriptures, in which Bakkalon insults "the god who is called a lamb" (a reference to Christ). 

I'm pretty sure that the inquisitions and missionaries during the crusades and colonisation and the religious wars in the low countries were acting like the Steel Angels. The doctrine that only humans have a soul is a Christian one. It's been used to argue enslavement and genocide of people the past 600 years. It may not be what Jesus Christ preached according to the last testament, but that did not matter to the witch hunters, inquisitors, colonizers and missionaries,or present day neo-evangelicals.

11 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

A conversation between a believer and a nihilist where even the nihilist admits that nihilism is a cold and empty doctrine, and hence that religion, even an invented one, is necessary for the health of the human spirit.  The story is consistent with atheism, but hardly a ringing endorsement of it.

An atheist or agnostic who could write such a story could hardly be averse to a work of fiction in which a fictional counterpart of Christianity received some level of favorable treatment.

I don't disagree, just like Robb realizes that it's lonely without Lya, but cannot fool himself for the illusion. It admits that believing illusions can be far more emotionally rewarding, makes a person happy, and that someone who knows it's a lie cannot delude themselves into that hapiness. Not a ringing endorsement of religion either.

[Gilbert Green]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Tuf argues nothing of the sort. Tolly is not in tears because of a crime against her people. She does not refer to Tuf as a god. Tuf commits no crime against her people whatsoever. He not only helped them setting up an ecology that will prevent a famine in 27 years, but will give improved nutrition value. What you write here above are outright lies! Nothing of what you write above happens in Loaves and Fishes.

I was not talking about "Loaves and Fishes".    i was talking about the third and final story in the S'uthlam trilogy.  Which apparently you have not read.  If you are reading from TUF VOYAGING, flip to the final story.

The three S'uthlam / Tolly Mune stories are:

- "Loaves and Fishes"

- "Second Helpings"

- "Manna from Heaven"

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The "prophet" is a strongman politician who is followed without question by people as if they were his "disciples". The relgious nutttery applied onto politics.

No religious nuttery is even mentioned in "And Death His Legacy".  That's simply true.   Every argument the "prophet" makes is a secular one.  His followers can be compared to religious disciples, but the same can be done with the too-loyal flock on the  other side of the political binary.

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The theme is indeed revisited, but not for a politician or a religion. It is about a rockstar who gains a frenzied following. The major difference is that the actual "cult" stuff is secluded to but a few of the most inner circle. The majority of the concert goers do not even know this is about anything other than rock. 

I was only comparing the themes of ARMAGEDDON RAG and "And Death His Legacy".  There is no religion in the latter either.

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It presents itself as a religious cult of love, albeit more like Hare Krishna, where everyone will become one in love, except to become one a person commits suicide. 

No real connection in "The Song of Lya" to Christianity then.  And if the only connection is "something to do with love", so what?  Are you against love?  Is GRRM?

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm pretty sure that the inquisitions and missionaries during the crusades and colonisation and the religious wars in the low countries were acting like the Steel Angels. The doctrine that only humans have a soul is a Christian one. It's been used to argue enslavement and genocide of people the past 600 years. It may not be what Jesus Christ preached according to the last testament, but that did not matter to the witch hunters, inquisitors, colonizers and missionaries,or present day neo-evangelicals.

This is mostly culture-war rhetoric with small elements of truth in spots.  You associate all bad things with Christianity, associate Christianity with all bad things, and overgeneralize history, and project your own opinions onto GRRM.  But at this point, you are no longer really discussing the story in question.

I am aware of no Christian doctrine that only humans have a soul.   This is an area where there is a diversity of opinion precisely because there is no doctrine.  The most I have seen suggested is that animals have mortal souls and that humans have immortal souls.  Nothing was suggested about fairies, goblins, or space aliens.  In the Christian-themed fantasy and sci-fi of authors like George MacDonald, J.R.R. Tolkien, and C.S. Lewis, non-humans and space aliens and intelligent animals have souls.  I never heard them being denounced as heretics for this reason.   This is a doctrine of the Steel Angels - not of Christianity.

Slavery was outlawed in the West largely because Christians opposed it as violating the doctrine of the Golden Rule and the universal brotherhood of mankind.  But yes, others who called themselves Christians opposed them.  History is never simple.

All power can be abused, and all doctrines, including religious ones as well as atheistic doctrines like Communism, can become oppressive when they gain too much power.

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't disagree, just like Robb realizes that it's lonely without Lya, but cannot fool himself for the illusion. It admits that believing illusions can be far more emotionally rewarding, makes a person happy, and that someone who knows it's a lie cannot delude themselves into that hapiness. Not a ringing endorsement of religion either.

I never suggested ASOIAF would be a "ringing endorsement of religion". 

But in the fictional story within a story that is presented in "The Way of Cross and Dragon", a fictionalized variant of Christianity (ironically involving a dragon-lord conqueror who converts to the Faith like Aegon) religion is presented in a fairly favorable light.  GRRM seems to play with the idea that a fictionalized rewrite of Christianity might be better than the real thing.  And in ASOIAF, he has presented us with a fictionalized rewrite of Christianity. 

Within the context of this fiction, he may be more-or-less on the side of the Faith of the Seven.  Allowing them a few warts and bad actors for realism's sake.  That's all i am suggesting.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I am aware of no Christian doctrine that only humans have a soul.   This is an area where there is a diversity of opinion precisely because there is no doctrine.  The most I have seen suggested is that animals have mortal souls and that humans have immortal souls.

I thought the categorisation of 'soul differences' between humans and animals began with Aristotle anyway, or at least existed before the rise of Christianity.

[Gilbert Green]

36 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I thought the categorisation of 'soul differences' between humans and animals began with Aristotle anyway, or at least existed before the rise of Christianity.

I tried to look up "animals" in the Catholic encyclopedia, and all i found was references to debates between ancient pagan authors about the nature of the animal soul.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

was not talking about "Loaves and Fishes".    i was talking about the third and final story in the S'uthlam trilogy.  Which apparently you have not read.  If you are reading from TUF VOYAGING, flip to the final story.

My apologies. I had indeed not read that yet. But you fail to account for the progression of the three short stories, which were foreseeable after the first. It was predictable then that if and when Tuf returns to S'uthlam the stopgap of feeding its 30 billion people would be used to even more rapid procreation. And it becomes clear then already that by the third visit the power corrupts applies on her a lot, having twisted the tales of the first visit into something to save her own hide but promoting the irresponsible procreation levels. Ma Spider becomes part of the system to save her own skin, even if she rationally disagrees with the foolish religious doctrine. Tuf points out to her that she mayhaps take on some responsibility for once, as should the people of her world. And it is just as foreseeable that it would be worse by the third visit, intantly hinted by her, a self proclaimed zero, not even having neutered her cats and ending up with more than Tuf. It makes her a Kevan Lannister, in essence a good woman, who does nothing, not even try to alter the stellar destructive path they're on.

You also seem to miss the complete irony of the fact that their procreation doctrine is one of "when we procreate unencumbered completely with as many as possible then we will evolve into becoming gods." Except their world is infested with cannibals, who kidnap pregnant women, and proclaims themselves gods who would completely colonize, genocide and destroy other worlds who behave far more rational and with consideration for the people that are living than they ever did all for the "potential life". And then she calls Tuf a monster for making the godlike decision to create a food that will inhibit sexual desires (not sterilize), while insisting they are her "good" people? lmao. At least Tuf has the honesty to admit that the Ark gives him godlike powers and responsibilities. But she's like Kevan having the highest political power and yet too fearful to make necessary social changes that would have allowed a free but responsible individual choice. She's the one who does nothing to stop the predictable monstrosities and trying to abuse others to solve it for her. Eventually she makes the hard decision, the only option that Tuf leaves her aside from the apocalypse, and like the coward she is, she does it without informing her people.

My own opinion and rhetorical question raised by the end of the triad of the stories: she harps on about free choice, but in how far has she and others have ever allowed her own people free choice by lying to them and do nothing against the religious illusions of grandeur by way of education? After all her people have not become godlike whatsoever, but uninhibited animals who follow their most base instincts without rational thought.

3 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

No religious nuttery is even mentioned in the story.  That's simply true.   Every argument the "prophet" makes is a secular one.  His followers can be compared to religious disciples, but that is true of some on both sides of the political binary.

Was not what I meant, simply that the story ties the impact of a political strongman to being similar to that of a religious cult leader.

 

3 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I was only comparing the themes of ARMAGEDDON RAG and "And Death His Legacy".  There is no religion in the latter either.

Actually you brought Armageddon rag up a few times, before I even mentioned And Death his Legacy.

3 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Nothing to do with Christianity then.  And if the only connection is "something to do with love", so what?  Are you against love?

Not Christianity per se, but religion nonetheless.

Of course I'm not against love. Love is a wonderful feeling. Love is a strong vehicle to bond with others and feel and think beyond just yourself. But it can also be a one-sided self-destructive illusion, and committing suicide in the hope to rejoin a deceased loved one is nothing but tragedy.

3 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

This is mostly culture-war rhetoric with small elements of truth in spots.  You associate all bad things with Christianity, associate Christianity with all bad things, and overgeneralize history, and project your own opinions onto GRRM.  But at this point, you are no longer really discussing the story in question.

I am not the one who mentioned "current culture wars". As far as I can see you are the one trying to push your own opinions and beliefs onto George.

And sure, I have my own opinions on such matters, but it does not negate the fact that the Steel Angels are written like inquisitors. And while you are correc that of course the edicts of the Steel Angels per Bakkalon are antithetical to the New Testament, you're also forgetting that Bakkalon is an extreme response to the extreme position of pacifism where nobody even fights in self-defense. And by the end of the story, the Steel Angels have transformed yet once more into another extreme. The people Bakkalon was born to, the Steel Angels, Dothraki and Hizdar (malb people) are two ends of a similar extreme, who seem unable to grasp the nuance and moderation in the middle. It's either complete peace (lamb for the slaughter) or complete dominion (making others into lambs).

I don't overgeneralize the history of the real life Steel Angels and their impact. Their actions and wars still has its impact upon my own country, centuries later. Streets here are named after free thinkers whose heads were chopped off by them. My city's Cathedral suffered a storming of statues. My city was beleaguered for decades and therefore forced to remain Catholic while it wanted to be Reformist back then. My own family is a mix of two Christian faiths, a minority of generations of protestants who practiced clandestinely and Catholics. The majority of children here go to private Catholic schools and even to this day are touted as supposedly "better" than state schools (nonsense) and some mother of a playmate decided to convert me to Catholicism when I was 5, behind my parents' back. So, yes, I have a negative view of the organized religion. I also scribbled in my mom's bible full of pencil commentary, and I absolutely adore some psalms. The New Testament gave me metaphorical strength to help me deal with the aftermath of a relationshit with a psychopath a decade ago, and historically I think it's greatest achievement is how it tried to do away with that sociopathic shaming and sacrificing cycle. I am an atheist, but a spiritual one.

But none of that has impact on George's writing, which proves time and time again that he consistently tackles extremism and lies fed to people via politics and organized religion or cult leaders.

[Gilbert Green]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

But you fail to account for the progression of the three short stories, which were foreseeable after the first.

I made no attempt to describe the whole story.  I made no attempt to describe Tuf's POV, and said so.  My point was not that this was not to some extent an anti-religious story.   My only point, in describing Tolly Mune's perspective and her accusations against Tuf, is that the story is not completely one sided.  There is nuance.

I anticipated that you would conclude that GRRM was 1000% on Tuf's side and 0.00% on Tolly's side.   Predictably, you have taken exactly this approach.  But I think GRRM's approach is a little more nuanced.  But I don't speak for GRRM and neither do you.  So I guess we must agree to disagree on our interpretations.

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

You also seem to miss the complete irony of the fact that their procreation doctrine is one of "when we procreate unencumbered completely with as many as possible then we will evolve into becoming gods."

This does not describe the Faith of the Seven, nor does it describe the Medieval Catholic Church, on whom the Faith of the Seven is based, nor does it describe modern Irish Catholics.

But yes, GRRM does deliberately set up a rather extreme example.  Hence, even if we could conclude that GRRM was 1000% on Tuf's side with respect the the involuntary sterilization of the S'uthlamese people, one could not conclude that GRRM was in favor of the involuntary sterilization of Irish Catholics.

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

... will inhibit sexual desires (not sterilize)....

It is clear in context that the effect on libido is sufficient to prevent procreation in all except that minority of the people who have a natural resistance.  So yes, effectively it is sterilization; just not 100% effective in all cases.

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Was not what I meant, simply that the story ties the impact of a political strongman to being similar to that of a religious cult leader.

If it does not relate to our disagreement, I have nothing further to say.

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually you brought Armageddon rag up a few times, before I even mentioned And Death his Legacy.

I mentioned it as an example of his opposition to the extremism that results from dualism.  The Religion of Rh'llor is, in ASOIAF, an analogous example of people being tempted and encouraged to commit murder in order to appease the gods and prevent Armageddon.  GRRM seems to be opposed to THAT kind of extremism, at least.

But it is not a kind of extremism that the Faith of the Seven are particularly guilty of.  Like I said, they stopped the Sistermen from throwing dwarfs into the sea.

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Of course I'm not against love. Love is a wonderful feeling. Love is a strong vehicle to bond with others and feel and think beyond just yourself. But it can also be a one-sided self-destructive illusion, and committing suicide in the hope to rejoin a deceased loved one is nothing but tragedy.

Christianity opposes suicide, and calls it a sin.  By analogy, I would expect the same is probably true of the Faith of the Seven. 

Hence, I fail to see your point here.  Unless you are trying to prove that GRRM dislikes suicide-promoting religions like the House of Black and White.   In which case, I will join you in hoping so.

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I am not the one who mentioned "current culture wars". As far as I can see you are the one trying to push your own opinions and beliefs onto George.

Not at all.  I think GRRM is quite anti-religious.  I just don't think his attitudes are entirely without nuance.

For example, I am opposed to human sacrifice cults and suicide cults, and hope GRRM is as well.  Hence, when GRRM portrays the septons as putting a stop to human sacrifice on the Sisters, I hope he is on the side of the septons, at least in this instance.  But who knows?

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And sure, I have my own opinions on such matters, but it does not negate the fact that the Steel Angels are written like inquisitors.

The Communists also had inquisitors, whenever they got power.  This is true of any intolerant top-down organization.  So yes, it is also true of the Steel Angels.  How could it be otherwise?

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And while you are correct that of course the edicts of the Steel Angels per Bakkalon are antithetical to the New Testament.

Right.  So why can't we stop discussing them?  The counterpart of the Cult of Bakkalon in ASOIAF, is not the Faith of the Seven.  Their counterpart is the Cult of Bakkalon.

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

But you're also forgetting that Bakkalon is an extreme response to the extreme position of pacifism where nobody even fights in self-defense.

You start by taking Bakkalon's word as infallible truth.  And then you accuse those Evil Christians of being extreme pacifists who are opposed even to the right of self defense.  Which isn't even what Bakkalon said.

I guess it really is true that any stick is good enough to beat the Christians with.  You are now beating them with the Word of Bakkalon.  All hail Bakkalon!

Let's put this pacifist nonsense to rest.  GRRM does not portray the Faith of the Seven as exteme pacifists.  In fact, the ideal of the True Knight is an ideal of the Faith of the Seven.  And The Warrior is one of their Seven Gods. 

So even if Christians are guilty of being too pacifistic, GRRM has "fixed" them in his fictionalized alternative.

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

But none of that has impact on George's writing, which proves time and time again that he consistently tackles extremism and lies fed to people via politics and organized religion or cult leaders.

One kind of extremism that (I hope) he opposes is human sacrifice.  The Great Other and Rh'llor are both associated with that.  The Faith of the Seven not so much.

[sweetsunray]

Back to the OP.

I've tried to piece together the history (of migrations) for the greater region of former Andalos: Andalos, the Axe, Hills of Norvos, Lorath, and Flatlands. When you read the histories of these various regions in the World Book, it gets confusing easily, because some migrating waves proposed in there seem to be in conflict with one another at the surface. It's like as if there are competing claims on hairy men or Andals being somewhere first in a certain region.

The key to solve the origin of the Andals, their original region and the timing of when they acquire the knowledge how to work iron is in the history of Norvos.

Despite the fact that the World Book section about Andalos and the Andals claims they originated from the Axe, I believe their original homelands were the Hills of Norvos. In the section about Norvos we learn a group of people lived in the Hills of Norvos before the hairy men migrated into it. Maesters speculate amongst each other whether it were mazemakers, Ibbenese or Andals. Though most maesters lean towards Andals, because the villages found about the group of people that were pushed out of the hils of Norvos by the hairy men were all wooden. Mazemakers used stone. While the Andals in Andalos always built keeps and communities in wood, even towards the end, even amidst the stone maze of Lorassyon. For this reason, the maps do not depict any Andal ruins. So, the proto Andals originally lived in the hills of Norvos majorly.

The fact that the hairy men could display them is a sign that these proto-Andals did not yet know forging of iron. Why do I say this? Well the hairy men originally lived at the Silver Sea of the Grasslands. Huzhor Amai united three people in that same area - Cymmeri, Gipps and Zoqora. The Cymmeri were the first known to work iron. By unting these 3 different groups the Cymmeri ended up sharing the forging of iron amongst one another, and Huzhor's Cymmeri wife forged him his armor. And since Huzhor Amai wore the pelt of the king of the hairy men, this is a sign that the united groups of people defeated the hairy men, exactly because of the use of iron.

With the history of the hills of Norvos, we can thus conclude that the hairy men migrated away from the Grasslands in the western direction. And since they were able to displace a group of people already living in the region beyond the forest of Qohor, this means that group of people had no iron weapons or armors. These proto-Andals were pushed to survive in the peninsula the Axe.

Now the histories of Norvos then relate that a Rhoynar prince of Ny Sar went up the tributuary the Noine to displace the hairy men towards the shores of the Bay of Lorath. The World Book tries to paint this Rhoynar mission as a potential exploration to migrate, but says the Rhoynar didn't like the climate and preferred the warmer lower countries of the Rhoyne and therefore did not stay in the Hills of Norvos. However, I think this was mostly an expedition intended to push the hairy men away from being their neighbours, and they never intended to stay anyhow. The fact that the Rhoynar could do so was because of the iron weapons and armor they would have had. There is one issue: if you chase a group of hairy men away from an area, and you don't want to occupy the area, how will you make sure surviving hairy men don't return to the area once you abandon it? Well, you teach the lethal and protective advantage of iron working to another group of people who lack the knowledge. So, the Rhoynar taught the proto-Andals that were pushed to survive in the Axe smithery and forging of iron. After teaching the proto-Andals, the Rhoynar retreat back to the Rhoyna and leave the Hills of Norvos to the Andals to reclaim again. And this would be the time that Hugor of the Hill lived.

So, we can then conclude that Hugor and Huzhor were not the same person. The migrations of the hairy men and who forged iron already makes that pretty impossible.

So, Hugor's Andals now knew iron work and occupied the Hill of Norvos and the Axe. Interesting is that just to the central north of that combined proto-Andalos lies the peninsula where the mazemakers once built a maze on Essos mainland (and not just the islands of Lorath). And of course the 7 are said to be "faces of one god" who told Hugor his future and that of his descendants. Hmmmm, for me that is very similar to the House of the Undying (which is a maze as well).

From the history of Lorath we know that the mazemakers were the first to live there, but they predate the Dawn age even, and were long gone before the next group migrated onto Lorath: the hairy men. We know from the history of Norvos that the Rhoynar pushed the hairy men north towards the Bay of Lorath. And we also know from Illyrio that the Flatlands (just east of Pentos) used to be land where the hairy men lived, prior to being conquered by the Andals. So, the hairy men did not only flee north to the Bay of Lorath but even more westward to the Flatlands.

Emboldened Hugor who wants to carve a kingdom in new lands starts a revenge mission imo first against the hairy men at the Bay of Lorath, before either he or his descendants conquered the Flatlands. That's when the hairy men had no other recourse but to cross the water and survive on the shores of Lorath, while shunning the inland mazes of the mazemakers. But even that diminished survival was doomed. Eventually the Andals crossed the Bay waters themselves and conquered the islands of Lorath, slaying all the men of the hairy men and enslaved the women and children of the hairy men. This was how the last of the hairy men disappeared from Essos. The World Book makes clear that when the Andals conquered the islands of Lorath, they did so with iron. So this was a long time after Hugor. For a thousand years Andalos (from Braavos to the Axe and south to the Flatlands and the Rhoyne) was never one large kindgom under one king, but an amalgam of petty kings in the various regions. Because of this each island of Lorath had its own king, and the biggest island even had 4 kings at once. And they warred amongst themselves for these thousand  years. Hukko is likely one of those petty kings of the Andals, but one who ruled in the Flatlands.

The conquering and settling on Lorath also seems to have led to the Andals basically abandoning the hills of Norvos, insofar that in those thousand years, bearded priests of Old Valyria managed to lay claim at least on a section of the Hills of Norvos and built a city there - the Freehold Norvos. Around that time, one of the Andal petty kings on Lorath was as ambituous as Hugor. Qarlon the Great wanted to become king of all Andalos. He started with the islands of Lorath, and once he was king of all Lorath he built his wooden keep at the heart of the largest maze built by the mazemakers, on the second largest island, Lorassyon. It took him 20 years to rule all of Andalos, including the mainland regions, and as many wars.

When Norvos blockaded the Noyne, Qarlon decided to war the Norvosi. He won two battles in the Hills of Norvos, and then made the foolish decision to march on Norvos itself and besiege the city. But Old Valyria had no intention of abandoning their freehold, and 100 dragons flew from Old Valyria to Norvos, where they put Qarlon and his army to the blaze. The Valyrian dragonriders did not stop there. They continued the flight to the islands of Lorath and burned it all. This event is remembered as the Scouring of Lorath. No Andal man or woman on Lorath survived and the stone mazes were scorched and blackened.

The Andals never returned to it. We can surmise that after encurring the wrath of Old Valyria onto their kingdom, even if the Rhoynar lay in between them, the Andals began to mass migrate to Westeros. The first to live for a while on Lorath after the Andals were the Ibbinese, once again shunning the mazes, but apparently  not for long either. By 1436 BC, the cult of Boash arrived on Lorath and settled their ego-denying cult in those scorched mazes. If there ever lived powers similar to the corpse queen or Shade of Qarth, the 100 dragons finished it off.

And yes, Illyrio and other tales of Pentos (who are part freeholders from Valyria mixed with the Andals that remained) contradict the septon Claims about the 7, about the Faith, about the iron forging, etc... which should not be so surprising: the Andals are a lying bunch after all.